THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
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Salam,
1822
1- They will say "Three, the fourth is their dog."
2- And they say "Five, the sixth is their dog,"
3- conjecturing with the occult.
4- And they say "Seven, and the eighth is their dog."
5- Say "My Lord is fully aware of their number, none know them except for a few."
6- So do not argue regarding them except with proof, and do not seek information regarding them from anyone.Here i share with you 3 remarks (others signs exist but it is not the subject here - i focus ONLY on THIS AYAT) that lead to think of the number 7 (eight if you include the dog).
(1)
The words of the sentence 1,2 and 4 are the same (I do not speak of conjugation but of words) except that in sentence 3 it adds a "wa".1822
1- They will say "Three, the fourth is their dog."
2- And they say "Five, the sixth is their dog,"
3- conjecturing with the occult.
4- And they say "Seven, and the eighth is their dog."=> Arabic language proof in the Arabic language more we say things more that shows that it is strong, of importance (you put the emphasis on it). This version is therefore preferred.
(2)
Sentence 3 is quoted AFTER opinion 1 and 2 but BEFORE option 3 (sentence 4)1822
1- They will say "Three, the fourth is their dog."
2- And they say "Five, the sixth is their dog,"
3- conjecturing with the occult.4- And they say "Seven, and the eighth is their dog."
=> the conjecture therefore concerns opinion 1 and 2 and not opinion 3 (sentence 4). It is a clue that sentence 4 gives the right solution
(3)
Who is Allah addressed to?1822
1- They will say "Three, the fourth is their dog."
2- And they say "Five, the sixth is their dog,"
3- conjecturing with the occult.4- And they say "Seven, and the eighth is their dog."
5- Say "My Lord is fully aware of their number, none know them except for a few."=> Allah first uses the future then the present and then AGAIN present tense after the sentence 3.
Thus we are dealing with 2 groups majority group that has the opinion 2 but they will change the story with opinion 1 AND the minority group ("Except for a few". As for what is the identity of this minority group it requires more development.Peace.
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سَيَقُولُونَ ثَلٟثَةٚ رَّابِعُهُـمْ كَلْبُـهُـمْ
People will keep saying that they were three in number and fourth companion of them was their dog —
وَيَقُولُونَ خَـمْسَةٚ سَادِسُهُـمْ كَلْبُـهُـمْ رَجْـمَاۢبِٱلْغَيْبِۖ
And others will say that they were five in number and sixth companion of them was their dog, hurling imaginary thoughts —
وَيَقُولُونَ سَبْعَةٚ وَثَامِنُـهُـمْ كَلْبُـهُـمْۚ
And yet others will say that they were seven in number and eighth companion was their dog.
قُل رَّبِّـى أَعْلَمُ بِعِدَّتِـهِـم مَّا يَعْلَمُهُـمْ إِلَّا قَلِيلٚۗ
You the Messenger pronounce, "My Sustainer Lord knows most certainly the number of them; people do not know about them except a few ones
فَلَا تُمَارِ فِيـهِـمْ إِلَّا مِرَآءٙ ظَٟهِرٙا وَلَا تَسْتَفْتِ فِيـهِـم مِّنْـهُـمْ أَحَدٙا .1822٢٢
Therefore, you should not enter into controversy about them except the evidently visible point and nor you should inquire about them from any one of them.
وَلَا تَقُولَنَّ لِشَا۟ىْءٛ إِ نِّـى فَاعِلٚ ذَٟلِكَ غَدٙا .1823٢٣
Take note, you should not henceforth proclaim about a thing, saying "I am certainly going to do it tomorrow."
إِلَّآ أَن يَشَآءَ ٱللَّهُ
Except making it conditional that if Allah the Exalted so wills.
وَٱذْكُر رَّبَّكَ إِذَا نَسِيتَ وَقُلْ عَسَىٰٓ أَن يَـهْدِيَنِ رَبِّـى لِأَقْرَبَ مِنْ هَـٰذَا رَشَدٙا .1824٢٤
And recall your Sustainer Lord when you forgot to say that, and say, "Perhaps my Sustainer Lord may guide me for a better and nearer course than this.
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You the Messenger pronounce, "My Sustainer Lord knows most certainly the number of them; people do not know about them except a few ones
=> In red Over-interpretation. If Allah wanted to refer to the past, and express the fact that no one knows their number except Him and some contemporaries, then he would have been explicit and used the past.
BUT
(182220) yaʿlamuhum / knows them => V – 3rd person masculine singular imperfect verb + PRON – 3rd person masculine plural object pronoun -
=> In red Over-interpretation. If Allah wanted to refer to the past, and express the fact that no one knows their number except Him and some contemporaries, then he would have been explicit and used the past.
BUT
(182220) yaʿlamuhum / knows them => V – 3rd person masculine singular imperfect verb + PRON – 3rd person masculine plural object pronounThanks.
It helped me immediately detect omission in my parsing into sentences. They are two separate sentences. Second not about number.
سَيَقُولُونَ ثَلٟثَةٚ رَّابِعُهُـمْ كَلْبُـهُـمْ
People will keep saying that they were three in number and fourth companion of them was their dog —
وَيَقُولُونَ خَـمْسَةٚ سَادِسُهُـمْ كَلْبُـهُـمْ رَجْـمَاۢبِٱلْغَيْبِۖ
And others will say that they were five in number and sixth companion of them was their dog, hurling imaginary thoughts —
وَيَقُولُونَ سَبْعَةٚ وَثَامِنُـهُـمْ كَلْبُـهُـمْۚ
And yet others will say that they were seven in number and eighth companion was their dog.
قُل رَّبِّـى أَعْلَمُ بِعِدَّتِـهِـم
You the Messenger pronounce, "My Sustainer Lord knows most certainly the exact number of them".
مَّا يَعْلَمُهُـمْ إِلَّا قَلِيلٚۗ
Since except a small segment, people do not know them —
فَلَا تُمَارِ فِيـهِـمْ إِلَّا مِرَآءٙ ظَٟهِرٙا وَلَا تَسْتَفْتِ فِيـهِـم مِّنْـهُـمْ أَحَدٙا .1822٢٢Therefore, you should not enter into controversy about them except the evidently visible point and nor you should enquire about them from any one of them.
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Salam,
رجما بالغیب is interesting.Peace
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You're welcome. Even if we don't share the same comprehension.
I don't understand of what you said by "Second not about number." => is it about what for you ? Can you clarify ?
قُل رَّبِّـى أَعْلَمُ بِعِدَّتِـهِـم
You the Messenger pronounce, "My Sustainer Lord knows most certainly the exact number of them".
In the next sentence the information and advice is for the Messenger
مَّا يَعْلَمُهُـمْ إِلَّا قَلِيلٚۗ
Since except a small segment, people do not know them —
فَلَا تُمَارِ فِيـهِـمْ إِلَّا مِرَآءٙ ظَٟهِرٙا وَلَا تَسْتَفْتِ فِيـهِـم مِّنْـهُـمْ أَحَدٙا .1822٢٢
Therefore, you should not enter into controversy about them except the evidently visible point and nor you should enquire about them from any one of them.This information advice does not refer about بِعِدَّتِـهِـم.
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Yes it is interpreted as making conjectures in this verse but at other places they make it star missiles thrown on devils. Agree it is interesting.
Salam Novice and Tellmethetruth,
I want to ADD 2 remarks
(1) Linguistic
رَجْمٌ rajm basically and originally means to hit with stones (as Ibn Faris pointed out), not for killing BUT to drive away or exile someone or something, It is also used for accusing or abusing, or to scold and oust => it means to leave someone or break relations with someone.
The form "rajman رَجْمًا" (once in the quran http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=rjm#(18229)) means "guess work" or "guessing without knowing the truth" int he context of (1822).
More explanations in dictinnary- حَدِیْثٌ مُرَجَّمٌ (hadeethum- murajjam) is a thought which cannot be verified {in "Taj-ul-Uroos"}.
- رَجَّمَ الرَّجُلُ بِالْغَیْبِ (rajjamar rujul bilghaib) that man has said something about the unknown.
- قاَلہَٗ رَجْم ا (qaalahu rajma) he simply made a guess {in Lane}.
=> The common point is the notion of distance/estrangement, in this case, in context of (18229), it means being away from the truth.
(2) Textual context
Allah raises 2 problems of "counting" (Couting = "al-raqīmi" in 189)
(1) The number of years
(2) The number of people in the caveMeditation While Allah gives the answer to the first counting, why does not he give the answer to the second couting ?
Let's connect these two issues
(1)
(1825)
And they remained in their cave (for) three hundred years, and add nine.
(1826)
Say "Allah is fully aware of how long they have remained, to Him is the unseen of the heavens and the earth ..
(2)
(1822)
and they say, "seven and the eighth of them their dog."
Say "My Master-Teacher knows their numbers. None knows them except a fewFirst sign
In (1826) the answer is given in the PREVIOUS sentence that make the affirmation of allah's knowledge on the exact number of years.
So reasoning by analogy then in (1822) the answer is of 7 people.Second sign
In (1825) it is Allah who gives the answer because NO ONE among the familiar ones of the Scripture had the number of 300 + 9 as a good answer. (They woke up about two hundred years later according to the legend of the Seven Sleepers).
On the other hand, in (1822,) some ("some" / "a few" as a minority) among the inhabitants of the country knew the answer. Indeed according to the Christian legend they were 7 (https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Sleepers). This is why Allah gives the answer by their mouths.This comprehension is reinforced by the use of the word "Allah" in the first case while it is the word "Master-teacher/instructor" which is used in the second case.
NB This sign also shows us that Christians (hermits ? who lives often in some holes made in the mountains) were in the immediate circle of the quraich tribe. To meditate...
Peace
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Salaam,
Any idea why they guessed those specific numbers 3, 5, 7 and not other numbers ?
An interesting observation about the numbers cited in chapter 18 from verse 9 to 26 concerning " ASHAB ALKAHF"
- The addition of the cardinal numbers
3 + 5 + 7 + 300 + 9 = 324
324 = 18 x 18
- The addition of the ordinal digits
4 + 6 + 8 = 18
source
http//scdofg.net/wp-content/uploads/flipbook/1/book.html#p=157والله اعلم
Allah knows best. -
Salaam,
Any idea why they guessed those specific numbers 3, 5, 7 and not other numbers ?
Salam ibn_a,
Guessing is ONLY for the groupe who say "5"/wayaqūlūna..Allah tells us that they will change their mind in the close future by saying "3"/sayaqūlūna (future). So they are not consistent..
An another group says "7"/wayaqūlūna. Allah doesn't say they are guessing.
The word of Allah are so accurate.Allah transmits to us the information of the opinions (2) existing in the circle of the prophet and not the reason for the number.
My opinion is that it is god (as a Master) who taught some men that the exact number was "7" as it was transmitted by ChristiansPeace
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Salam ibn_a,
Guessing is ONLY for the groupe who say "5"/wayaqūlūna..Allah tells us that they will change their mind in the close future by saying "3"/sayaqūlūna (future). So they are not consistent..
An another group says "7"/wayaqūlūna. Allah doesn't say they are guessing.
The word of Allah are so accurate.Allah transmits to us the information of the opinions (2) existing in the circle of the prophet and not the reason for the number.
My opinion is that it is god (as a Master) who taught some men that the exact number was "7" as it was transmitted by ChristiansPeace
Peace Iyyaka,
Thanks for your explanations.
let's accept that only one group guessed.
My question would be more about what indication did they have to say 3 or 5.Why not 3, 4 or 4, 5 or 5, 6 or other numbers?
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Peace Iyyaka,
Thanks for your explanations.
let's accept that only one group guessed.
My question would be more about what indication did they have to say 3 or 5.Why not 3, 4 or 4, 5 or 5, 6 or other numbers?
Salam,
Sorry if i don't really understand you but i believed i answered you by saying "Allah transmits to us the information of the opinions (2) existing in the circle of the prophet and not the reason for the number.".
The text doesn't inform us WHY they believe in the number of 3 instead of 4, 8..So i don't know. It is just a fact, a report made by Allah from this time.
Do you find information in the text about this subject? -
Salaam,
Salam,
Sorry if i don't really understand you but i believed i answered you by saying "Allah transmits to us the information of the opinions (2) existing in the circle of the prophet and not the reason for the number.".
The text doesn't inform us WHY they believe in the number of 3 instead of 4, 8..So i don't know. It is just a fact, a report made by Allah from this time.
Do you find information in the text about this subject?Peace Iyyaka,
I understand and appreciate your answer.
The question was not specifically intended to you.
Just wanted to know if there is a reason for those "odd numbers", and why those who guessed " jumped " from 3 to 5 avoiding number 4 ...
Allah raises 2 problems of "counting" (Couting = "al-raqīmi" in 189)
(1) The number of years
(2) The number of people in the cave....
- Only few translators have translated Al-Raqim الرقيم in relation to numbers, others translate it as Inscription, Tablet, stone Tablet, etc...
https//www.islamawakened.com/quran/18/9/default.htm
- The translation in relation to numbers seems interesting because in "today Arabic" raqm رقم means number and because of the "high concentration" of numbers concerning "Ashab Alkahf"
3, 4th, 5, 6th, 7, 8th, 300, 9
- Could you explain why you translated Al-Raqim الرقيم as counting ?
والله اعلم
Allah knows best. -
Salaam,
Peace Iyyaka,
- Could you explain why you translated Al-Raqim الرقيم as counting ?
والله اعلم
Allah knows best.Salam ibn_a,
Yes many different translation..The core meaning refers to the idea of writing with the idea of the full writing (with points - to distinct), marking and number.
Hans Wehr is clear here (raqama - raqm) http//ejtaal.net/aa/#hw4=424,ll=1181,ls=5,la=1709,sg=448,ha=277,br=402,pr=67,vi=173,mgf=370,mr=270,mn=524,aan=232,kz=919,uqq=130,ulq=829,uqa=163,uqw=662,umr=435,ums=363,umj=308,bdw=366,amr=265,asb=377,auh=659,dhq=220,mht=352,msb=97,tla=54,amj=296,ens=1,mis=841
Some, as brother Mazhar, tanslate this word as a proper name of a city (raqeem as the ancient name of modern Petra in jordania?).
http//haqeeqat.pk/Quran.Corpus-5Part9Sura15-18.htmFor me the link with the debate about their number and the time they spent in the cave is obvious. So i translate as calculation or counting with the derivative idea that it was planned by Allah, engrave in marble.
Peace
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Salam ibn_a,
Yes many different translation..The core meaning refers to the idea of writing with the idea of the full writing (with points - to distinct), marking and number.
Hans Wehr is clear here (raqama - raqm) http//ejtaal.net/aa/#hw4=424,ll=1181,ls=5,la=1709,sg=448,ha=277,br=402,pr=67,vi=173,mgf=370,mr=270,mn=524,aan=232,kz=919,uqq=130,ulq=829,uqa=163,uqw=662,umr=435,ums=363,umj=308,bdw=366,amr=265,asb=377,auh=659,dhq=220,mht=352,msb=97,tla=54,amj=296,ens=1,mis=841
Some, as brother Mazhar, tanslate this word as a proper name of a city (raqeem as the ancient name of modern Petra in jordania?).
http//haqeeqat.pk/Quran.Corpus-5Part9Sura15-18.htmFor me the link with the debate about their number and the time they spent in the cave is obvious. So i translate as calculation or counting with the derivative idea that it was planned by Allah, engrave in marble.
Peace
The reason why I take it as Proper Noun أَصْحَـٟـبَ ٱلْـكَهْفِ وَٱلرَّقِيـمِ
It is a Possessive Phrase. First is ٱلْـكَهْفِ the reference they are popularly known and referred. Second is also Location. It is Location/Place/Symbol which naturally collocates with أَصْحَـٟـبَ in Arabic.
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The reason why I take it as Proper Noun أَصْحَـٟـبَ ٱلْـكَهْفِ وَٱلرَّقِيـمِ
It is a Possessive Phrase. First is ٱلْـكَهْفِ the reference they are popularly known and referred. Second is also Location. It is Location/Place/Symbol which naturally collocates with أَصْحَـٟـبَ in Arabic.
Salam Mazhar,
Yes your arguments may be valid about the word "Raqeem" but i don't think they are correct in this passage for 2 mainly reason
(1) Linguistic argument
You said "It is a Possessive Phrase" => Yes but let me developped
the words are in the genitive when they have the following main function
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- -The complement of the name
Complements "close" are therefore genitive.
- -The complement of the name
Thus the words "l-kahfi/the cave" and "l-raqīmi/the enumeration" are two close complements to the name "aṣḥāba / companions", two essential characteristics that, unambiguously for me, allow us to understand that the Qur'an speaks about the story of the "Seven Sleepers". Without the second characteristic "" l-raqīmi / enumeration " nobody could find precisely this story because what makes the peculiarity of this history and its miraculous character is precisely to remain for decades in a cave and not to stay in caves.
To summarize, we have the following equation for any familiar with holy writing (Bible + Quran)
- Companions + Cave + Count of years = the story of the Seven Sleepers
(1) Contextual argument
a.
- If it means "residents of Raqeem" (Raqeemn as a location/place) the following question is raising Why Allah specify this place ? Does he develops this subject in next ayats ? For me no but perhaps you have an idea.
- In addition the place name raqeem is known to be one of the ancient names of petra. But the story of the "Seven Sleepers" is not in Petra but in Ephesus.
b.
- In the ayats following the ayat 189 Allah is developing 2 major themes which are connected closely with the introductory sign (189) and the key words "l-kahfi/the cave" and "l-raqīmi/the enumeration"
(1) The time of the cave the reason why they took refuge in the cave (18 13-16) + the time in the cave (18 17-1
and
(2) After cave time and the problem of their number and time to stay in.(1819 ...)
Peace
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There is no such phrase, title 'Seven sleepers'.
A possessive phrase develops a relationship. The word أَصْحَـٟـبَ does not occur as first element with number, This word is the first element for both the following words, since both are in genitive case; and this word is itself definite by construct. Thereby, both are locations. Nothing else can be derived from the phrase.
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Yes you're right no "title 'Seven sleepers'" probably this christian story was known as "aṣḥāba l-kahfi" as the Quran testifies...
But don't neglect the SIGN of the literal context BEFORE ayat (189) which talks about Christian dogma in (184...6).
It is telling periods of their history. It shows true believers were present when the majority had gone astray. Then comes the period when majority were true Muslims; the time they were raised from deep sleep. Again majority went astray by the time Qur'an was revealed.
This also reveals the time frame when their elders concocted the story of son.