THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
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Salaam,
Salam,
Sorry if i don't really understand you but i believed i answered you by saying "Allah transmits to us the information of the opinions (2) existing in the circle of the prophet and not the reason for the number.".
The text doesn't inform us WHY they believe in the number of 3 instead of 4, 8..So i don't know. It is just a fact, a report made by Allah from this time.
Do you find information in the text about this subject?Peace Iyyaka,
I understand and appreciate your answer.
The question was not specifically intended to you.
Just wanted to know if there is a reason for those "odd numbers", and why those who guessed " jumped " from 3 to 5 avoiding number 4 ...
Allah raises 2 problems of "counting" (Couting = "al-raqīmi" in 189)
(1) The number of years
(2) The number of people in the cave....
- Only few translators have translated Al-Raqim الرقيم in relation to numbers, others translate it as Inscription, Tablet, stone Tablet, etc...
https//www.islamawakened.com/quran/18/9/default.htm
- The translation in relation to numbers seems interesting because in "today Arabic" raqm رقم means number and because of the "high concentration" of numbers concerning "Ashab Alkahf"
3, 4th, 5, 6th, 7, 8th, 300, 9
- Could you explain why you translated Al-Raqim الرقيم as counting ?
والله اعلم
Allah knows best. -
Salaam,
Peace Iyyaka,
- Could you explain why you translated Al-Raqim الرقيم as counting ?
والله اعلم
Allah knows best.Salam ibn_a,
Yes many different translation..The core meaning refers to the idea of writing with the idea of the full writing (with points - to distinct), marking and number.
Hans Wehr is clear here (raqama - raqm) http//ejtaal.net/aa/#hw4=424,ll=1181,ls=5,la=1709,sg=448,ha=277,br=402,pr=67,vi=173,mgf=370,mr=270,mn=524,aan=232,kz=919,uqq=130,ulq=829,uqa=163,uqw=662,umr=435,ums=363,umj=308,bdw=366,amr=265,asb=377,auh=659,dhq=220,mht=352,msb=97,tla=54,amj=296,ens=1,mis=841
Some, as brother Mazhar, tanslate this word as a proper name of a city (raqeem as the ancient name of modern Petra in jordania?).
http//haqeeqat.pk/Quran.Corpus-5Part9Sura15-18.htmFor me the link with the debate about their number and the time they spent in the cave is obvious. So i translate as calculation or counting with the derivative idea that it was planned by Allah, engrave in marble.
Peace
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Salam ibn_a,
Yes many different translation..The core meaning refers to the idea of writing with the idea of the full writing (with points - to distinct), marking and number.
Hans Wehr is clear here (raqama - raqm) http//ejtaal.net/aa/#hw4=424,ll=1181,ls=5,la=1709,sg=448,ha=277,br=402,pr=67,vi=173,mgf=370,mr=270,mn=524,aan=232,kz=919,uqq=130,ulq=829,uqa=163,uqw=662,umr=435,ums=363,umj=308,bdw=366,amr=265,asb=377,auh=659,dhq=220,mht=352,msb=97,tla=54,amj=296,ens=1,mis=841
Some, as brother Mazhar, tanslate this word as a proper name of a city (raqeem as the ancient name of modern Petra in jordania?).
http//haqeeqat.pk/Quran.Corpus-5Part9Sura15-18.htmFor me the link with the debate about their number and the time they spent in the cave is obvious. So i translate as calculation or counting with the derivative idea that it was planned by Allah, engrave in marble.
Peace
The reason why I take it as Proper Noun أَصْحَـٟـبَ ٱلْـكَهْفِ وَٱلرَّقِيـمِ
It is a Possessive Phrase. First is ٱلْـكَهْفِ the reference they are popularly known and referred. Second is also Location. It is Location/Place/Symbol which naturally collocates with أَصْحَـٟـبَ in Arabic.
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The reason why I take it as Proper Noun أَصْحَـٟـبَ ٱلْـكَهْفِ وَٱلرَّقِيـمِ
It is a Possessive Phrase. First is ٱلْـكَهْفِ the reference they are popularly known and referred. Second is also Location. It is Location/Place/Symbol which naturally collocates with أَصْحَـٟـبَ in Arabic.
Salam Mazhar,
Yes your arguments may be valid about the word "Raqeem" but i don't think they are correct in this passage for 2 mainly reason
(1) Linguistic argument
You said "It is a Possessive Phrase" => Yes but let me developped
the words are in the genitive when they have the following main function
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- -The complement of the name
Complements "close" are therefore genitive.
- -The complement of the name
Thus the words "l-kahfi/the cave" and "l-raqīmi/the enumeration" are two close complements to the name "aṣḥāba / companions", two essential characteristics that, unambiguously for me, allow us to understand that the Qur'an speaks about the story of the "Seven Sleepers". Without the second characteristic "" l-raqīmi / enumeration " nobody could find precisely this story because what makes the peculiarity of this history and its miraculous character is precisely to remain for decades in a cave and not to stay in caves.
To summarize, we have the following equation for any familiar with holy writing (Bible + Quran)
- Companions + Cave + Count of years = the story of the Seven Sleepers
(1) Contextual argument
a.
- If it means "residents of Raqeem" (Raqeemn as a location/place) the following question is raising Why Allah specify this place ? Does he develops this subject in next ayats ? For me no but perhaps you have an idea.
- In addition the place name raqeem is known to be one of the ancient names of petra. But the story of the "Seven Sleepers" is not in Petra but in Ephesus.
b.
- In the ayats following the ayat 189 Allah is developing 2 major themes which are connected closely with the introductory sign (189) and the key words "l-kahfi/the cave" and "l-raqīmi/the enumeration"
(1) The time of the cave the reason why they took refuge in the cave (18 13-16) + the time in the cave (18 17-1
and
(2) After cave time and the problem of their number and time to stay in.(1819 ...)
Peace
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There is no such phrase, title 'Seven sleepers'.
A possessive phrase develops a relationship. The word أَصْحَـٟـبَ does not occur as first element with number, This word is the first element for both the following words, since both are in genitive case; and this word is itself definite by construct. Thereby, both are locations. Nothing else can be derived from the phrase.
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Yes you're right no "title 'Seven sleepers'" probably this christian story was known as "aṣḥāba l-kahfi" as the Quran testifies...
But don't neglect the SIGN of the literal context BEFORE ayat (189) which talks about Christian dogma in (184...6).
It is telling periods of their history. It shows true believers were present when the majority had gone astray. Then comes the period when majority were true Muslims; the time they were raised from deep sleep. Again majority went astray by the time Qur'an was revealed.
This also reveals the time frame when their elders concocted the story of son.
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Morphological precision
the name l-raqīmi derives from the root raqama. Just as for the name ar-raḥîm in (11), the scheme/pattern fa'îl on which it is constructed is that of adjectives of the active participle type, that is to say, realizing qualitatively the verbal action.
Hence my translation by "The enumeration/counting" = action of enumerating/count. -
Salaam,
Peace and thanks to both of you Iyyaka and Mazhar,
An other interesting observation that could support the relation of Al-Raqim to numbers, is the second word in 189
HASIBTA حسبت which can also mean calculate as well as think, etc...
source
http//scdofg.net/wp-content/uploads/flipbook/1/book.html#p=152
(not agree with all what is said in the book) -
Morphological precision
the name l-raqīmi derives from the root raqama. Just as for the name ar-raḥîm in (11), the scheme/pattern fa'îl on which it is constructed is that of adjectives of the active participle type, that is to say, realizing qualitatively the verbal action.
Hence my translation by "The enumeration/counting" = action of enumerating/count.Where is precision in it
A phrase for semantic purposes is a whole unit. The first element is also definite signifying certain plural number of persons who have something in common, companions, residents of certain place; like it is used companions/resident of Hell Prison or Paradise.
On face of it this will be ridiculous; "companions of the enumerating/count".
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Salaam,
Where is precision in it
A phrase for semantic purposes is a whole unit. The first element is also definite signifying certain plural number of persons who have something in common, companions, residents of certain place; like it is used companions/resident of Hell Prison or Paradise.
On face of it this will be ridiculous; "companions of the enumerating/count".
Peace Mazhar,
Why not as "Ashaab alkahf And the enumerating/count/ ....".
And what about the root R Q M ر ق م
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Salam,
@ ibn_a
An other interesting observation that could support the relation of Al-Raqim to numbers, is the second word in 189
HASIBTA حسبت which can also mean calculate as well as think, etc...=> Yes good remark. Another sign given by Allah
@ Mazhar
the Genetive case has the main function of being a complement close to name.
Here is the definition of the word "complement" in the dictionary "Word or proposition related to another word or proposition, to supplement or clarify its meaning."
It is true that the literal translation is not always easy, so here is a translation with the elements above and in the previous posts- The companions of the cave (- who own the characteristic of having lived in a cave), and who have been the subject of a count action,
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Salam,
@ ibn_a
=> Yes good remark. Another sign given by Allah
@ Mazhar
the Genetive case has the main function of being a complement close to name.
Here is the definition of the word "complement" in the dictionary "Word or proposition related to another word or proposition, to supplement or clarify its meaning."
It is true that the literal translation is not always easy, so here is a translation with the elements above and in the previous posts- The companions of the cave (- who own the characteristic of having lived in a cave), and who have been the subject of a count action,
Meaning less.
Genitive noun is either object of a preposition or second element of possessive phrase. Pl again read what is meant by. compliment. -
Salaam,
Peace and thanks to both of you Iyyaka and Mazhar,
An other interesting observation that could support the relation of Al-Raqim to numbers, is the second word in 189
HASIBTA حسبت which can also mean calculate as well as think, etc...
source
http//scdofg.net/wp-content/uploads/flipbook/1/book.html#p=152
(not agree with all what is said in the book)Salam ibn_a,
Thank you again for your remark. I correct my previous view
- the term "wal-raqīmi" refers only to the people of the cave and therefore the counting of their number ONLY, and not also the time spent in the cave
So my new translation
have you thought/calculate that (the) companions (of) the cave, and the couting, were among our signs a wonder ? -
Salaam,
Peace Mazhar,
My post were about exploring the possibility, if Al raqim الرقيم could be related to numbers.
See it more as a question about the root R Q M ر ق م taking into account your knowledge and interesting explanations about the roots in the Quran
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7717.msg426900#msg426900
and since you did not explain the reason (or I missed it) for relating Al raqim to a place,
and if the root R Q M ر ق م allows for the possibility to relate it to numbers?
Considering the different opinions about the meaning of Al raqim الرقيم
what is certain, is the uncertainty, seems more as رجما بالغيبhttp//arabiclexicon.hawramani.com/search/%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B1%D9%82%D9%8A%D9%85%20%20?cat=50
الرَّقِيمُ is said to mean A tablet (JK, S, K *) of lead, (K,) whereon were inscribed, (JK, * S,) or engraved, (K,) the names of the People of the Cave , (JK, S, K,) and their ancestry, (JK, K,) and their story, (S,) and their religion, and what it was from which they fled (K) so says Suh, on the authority of Fr (TA)
or a mass of stone; (Suh, JK, K
a stone tablet on which were inscribed their names, and which was put upon the entrance of the cave (Bd)
or the town,
or village, from which they came forth (JK, K)
or their mountain (Zj, K) in which was the cave (Zj)
or the valley (AO, JK, K) in which was the cave (AO, JK)
or their dog (El-Hasán, R, K)
or the receptacle for ink (JK, K, TA) mentioned by IDrd, but with the expression of uncertainty as to its correctness; (TA and said to be of the language of the Greeks (JK, * TA)
and the tablet (K) thus, also, explained as used in the verse of the Kur-án (TA)
but I'Ab is related by 'Ikrimeh to have said, I know not what is الرَّقِيمُ; whether
a book
or writing,
or a building (S, TA) it is of the measure فَعِيل in the sense of the measure مَفْعُول. (TA.)والله اعلم
Allah knows best.Salam ibn_a,
Thank you again for your remark. I correct my previous view
- the term "wal-raqīmi" refers only to the people of the cave and therefore the counting of their number ONLY, and not also the time spent in the cave
So my new translation
have you thought/calculate that (the) companions (of) the cave, and the couting, were among our signs a wonder ?Peace Iyyaka,
Thanks for sharing your understanding.
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Just read about Petra original name.
Root ر ق مWords from this Root in the Grand Qur’ān
a) Total occurrences 3
b) No of constructions 3 Nouns
Ibn Faris stated
(مقاييس اللغة)
الراء والقاف والميم أصلٌ واحد يدلُّ على خَطٍّ وكتابةٍ وما أشبَهَ ذلك . فالرَّقْم الخَطّ.
That it leads to the perception of streak, calligraphy, penmanship and writing and that which resembles it;
Lane Lexicon And He sealed, stamped, imprinted, or impressed. (S, TA.) And رَقَمَ الِكتَابَ, (K,) inf. n. as above, (JK,) He marked the writing with the dots, or points,
May be the city had beautiful calligraphic patterns which corresponds to the basic concept of Root.
http//haqeeqat.pk/roots/(556).htm
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So to summary we have at least 3 hypotheses
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Name of a place, a location (as Mazhar suggests)
=> Petra
https//www.visitpetra.jo/DetailsPage/VisitPetra/LocationsInPetraDetailsEn.aspx?PID=4
=> Or, a locality near Amman (legend of 3 men and 1 dog)
https//www.persee.fr/doc/crai_0065-0536_1899_num_43_5_71468 (in french sorry) -
"Inscription"
the tablet of lead or stone where were written (raqam) the names of dormant
As suggested by the other 2 Koranic verses that refer to an engraved compilation, written with the idea of readability and unambiguous detail (diacritics)
http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=rqm#(1896)
Thus We revealed them to them, that they might know that the promise of God is truth, and there is no doubt about the Hour ... => evidence of the resurection
- "Enumeration/counting" => see previous interventions.
Good translation for this comprehension from "https//submission.org/QI#18"
Why else do you think we are telling you about the people of the cave, and the numbers connected with them? They are among our wondrous signs.
Hypothesis 2 is also very interesting because it is close to the meaning of the root and by Quranic use.
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So to summary we have at least 3 hypotheses
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Name of a place, a location (as Mazhar suggests)
=> Petra
https//www.visitpetra.jo/DetailsPage/VisitPetra/LocationsInPetraDetailsEn.aspx?PID=4
=> Or, a locality near Amman (legend of 3 men and 1 dog)
https//www.persee.fr/doc/crai_0065-0536_1899_num_43_5_71468 (in french sorry) -
"Inscription"
the tablet of lead or stone where were written (raqam) the names of dormant
As suggested by the other 2 Koranic verses that refer to an engraved compilation, written with the idea of readability and unambiguous detail (diacritics)
http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=rqm#(1896)
Thus We revealed them to them, that they might know that the promise of God is truth, and there is no doubt about the Hour ... => evidence of the resurection
- "Enumeration/counting" => see previous interventions.
Good translation for this comprehension from "https//submission.org/QI#18"
Why else do you think we are telling you about the people of the cave, and the numbers connected with them? They are among our wondrous signs.
Hypothesis 2 is also very interesting because it is close to the meaning of the root and by Quranic use.
It is mere wandering in vacuum. You are time and again placing aside fundamentals of language; the Possessive Phrase.
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