THE YOUNG PEOPLE OF THE CAVE WERE 3, 5, or 7 ? (18:22)
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Salaam,
Peace and thanks to both of you Iyyaka and Mazhar,
An other interesting observation that could support the relation of Al-Raqim to numbers, is the second word in 189
HASIBTA حسبت which can also mean calculate as well as think, etc...
source
http//scdofg.net/wp-content/uploads/flipbook/1/book.html#p=152
(not agree with all what is said in the book)Salam ibn_a,
Thank you again for your remark. I correct my previous view
- the term "wal-raqīmi" refers only to the people of the cave and therefore the counting of their number ONLY, and not also the time spent in the cave
So my new translation
have you thought/calculate that (the) companions (of) the cave, and the couting, were among our signs a wonder ? -
Salaam,
Peace Mazhar,
My post were about exploring the possibility, if Al raqim الرقيم could be related to numbers.
See it more as a question about the root R Q M ر ق م taking into account your knowledge and interesting explanations about the roots in the Quran
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7717.msg426900#msg426900
and since you did not explain the reason (or I missed it) for relating Al raqim to a place,
and if the root R Q M ر ق م allows for the possibility to relate it to numbers?
Considering the different opinions about the meaning of Al raqim الرقيم
what is certain, is the uncertainty, seems more as رجما بالغيبhttp//arabiclexicon.hawramani.com/search/%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B1%D9%82%D9%8A%D9%85%20%20?cat=50
الرَّقِيمُ is said to mean A tablet (JK, S, K *) of lead, (K,) whereon were inscribed, (JK, * S,) or engraved, (K,) the names of the People of the Cave , (JK, S, K,) and their ancestry, (JK, K,) and their story, (S,) and their religion, and what it was from which they fled (K) so says Suh, on the authority of Fr (TA)
or a mass of stone; (Suh, JK, K
a stone tablet on which were inscribed their names, and which was put upon the entrance of the cave (Bd)
or the town,
or village, from which they came forth (JK, K)
or their mountain (Zj, K) in which was the cave (Zj)
or the valley (AO, JK, K) in which was the cave (AO, JK)
or their dog (El-Hasán, R, K)
or the receptacle for ink (JK, K, TA) mentioned by IDrd, but with the expression of uncertainty as to its correctness; (TA and said to be of the language of the Greeks (JK, * TA)
and the tablet (K) thus, also, explained as used in the verse of the Kur-án (TA)
but I'Ab is related by 'Ikrimeh to have said, I know not what is الرَّقِيمُ; whether
a book
or writing,
or a building (S, TA) it is of the measure فَعِيل in the sense of the measure مَفْعُول. (TA.)والله اعلم
Allah knows best.Salam ibn_a,
Thank you again for your remark. I correct my previous view
- the term "wal-raqīmi" refers only to the people of the cave and therefore the counting of their number ONLY, and not also the time spent in the cave
So my new translation
have you thought/calculate that (the) companions (of) the cave, and the couting, were among our signs a wonder ?Peace Iyyaka,
Thanks for sharing your understanding.
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Just read about Petra original name.
Root ر ق مWords from this Root in the Grand Qur’ān
a) Total occurrences 3
b) No of constructions 3 Nouns
Ibn Faris stated
(مقاييس اللغة)
الراء والقاف والميم أصلٌ واحد يدلُّ على خَطٍّ وكتابةٍ وما أشبَهَ ذلك . فالرَّقْم الخَطّ.
That it leads to the perception of streak, calligraphy, penmanship and writing and that which resembles it;
Lane Lexicon And He sealed, stamped, imprinted, or impressed. (S, TA.) And رَقَمَ الِكتَابَ, (K,) inf. n. as above, (JK,) He marked the writing with the dots, or points,
May be the city had beautiful calligraphic patterns which corresponds to the basic concept of Root.
http//haqeeqat.pk/roots/(556).htm
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So to summary we have at least 3 hypotheses
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Name of a place, a location (as Mazhar suggests)
=> Petra
https//www.visitpetra.jo/DetailsPage/VisitPetra/LocationsInPetraDetailsEn.aspx?PID=4
=> Or, a locality near Amman (legend of 3 men and 1 dog)
https//www.persee.fr/doc/crai_0065-0536_1899_num_43_5_71468 (in french sorry) -
"Inscription"
the tablet of lead or stone where were written (raqam) the names of dormant
As suggested by the other 2 Koranic verses that refer to an engraved compilation, written with the idea of readability and unambiguous detail (diacritics)
http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=rqm#(1896)
Thus We revealed them to them, that they might know that the promise of God is truth, and there is no doubt about the Hour ... => evidence of the resurection
- "Enumeration/counting" => see previous interventions.
Good translation for this comprehension from "https//submission.org/QI#18"
Why else do you think we are telling you about the people of the cave, and the numbers connected with them? They are among our wondrous signs.
Hypothesis 2 is also very interesting because it is close to the meaning of the root and by Quranic use.
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So to summary we have at least 3 hypotheses
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Name of a place, a location (as Mazhar suggests)
=> Petra
https//www.visitpetra.jo/DetailsPage/VisitPetra/LocationsInPetraDetailsEn.aspx?PID=4
=> Or, a locality near Amman (legend of 3 men and 1 dog)
https//www.persee.fr/doc/crai_0065-0536_1899_num_43_5_71468 (in french sorry) -
"Inscription"
the tablet of lead or stone where were written (raqam) the names of dormant
As suggested by the other 2 Koranic verses that refer to an engraved compilation, written with the idea of readability and unambiguous detail (diacritics)
http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=rqm#(1896)
Thus We revealed them to them, that they might know that the promise of God is truth, and there is no doubt about the Hour ... => evidence of the resurection
- "Enumeration/counting" => see previous interventions.
Good translation for this comprehension from "https//submission.org/QI#18"
Why else do you think we are telling you about the people of the cave, and the numbers connected with them? They are among our wondrous signs.
Hypothesis 2 is also very interesting because it is close to the meaning of the root and by Quranic use.
It is mere wandering in vacuum. You are time and again placing aside fundamentals of language; the Possessive Phrase.
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Salaam,
Peace Mazhar,
Thanks for the explanation, I didn't know that the original name of Petra was "Reqem or Raqmu".أَمْ حَسِبْتَ أَنَّ أَصْحَـٟـبَ ٱلْـكَهْفِ وَٱلرَّقِيـمِ كَانُوا۟۟ مِنْ ءَايَٟتِنَا عَجَبٙا .1809٩
Or have you deemed the companions of the Cave and residents of Raqeem as if they were a wonder in the displaying signs of Our Majesty —
http//haqeeqat.pk/Quran.Corpus-5Part9Sura15-18.htm
In the translation on your website there is no explanation for Al raqim nor a reference to Petra.
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Salaam,
Peace Mazhar,
Thanks for the explanation, I didn't know that the original name of Petra was "Reqem or Raqmu".In the translation on your website there is no explanation for Al raqim nor a reference to Petra.
I have just translated. When I explain it by syntax, sentence structures there I will mention it.
Information about their residential place/city is also given. Their city dwellers - rulers had gone polytheists.
هَٟٓـؤُلَآءِ قَوْمُنَا ٱتَّخَذُوا۟ مِن دُونِهِۦٓ ءَالِـهَةٙۖ
Look at these people, our nation; they have purposely adopted others besides Him the Exalted as various iela'aha godheads —
لَّوْلَا يَأْتُونَ عَلَيْـهِـم بِسُلْطَٟنِۭ بَيِّـنٛۖ
Why not they come forth about the stance upon them with a distinct authoritative argument-evidence?
فَمَنْ أَظْلَمُ مِمَّنِ ٱفْتَـرَىٰ عَلَـى ٱللَّهِ كَذِبٙا .1815١٥
Thereby, who could be a greater evil monger-a distorter-creator of imbalances, disorder-over stepping than him who artfully conjectured a falsehood attributing it to Allah the Exalted —
وَإِذِ ٱعْتَزَلْتُـمُوهُـمْ وَمَا يَعْبُدُونَ إِلَّا ٱللَّهَ فَأْوُواۥٓ إِلَـى ٱلْـكَهْفِ
And when you people separate from them and what they worship, except Allah the Exalted, then proceed for protective refuge towards the particular cave —
يَنْشُـرْ لَـكُـمْ رَبُّكُـم مِّن رَّحْـمَتِهِۦ وَيُـهَيِّئْ لَـكُـم مِّنْ أَمْرِكُم مِّرْفَقٙا .1816١٦
Your Sustainer Lord will expand for you from His Mercy, and will facilitate for you in your matter making it convenient."
The destined cave they already knew as most suitable place for hiding. Certain location clue are also mentioned with reference to movement of Sun and affect on cave.
This also confirms earlier informative statement about the name of their parental city.
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Salaam,
Peace Mazhar,
I can understand your argument for relating Al raqim الرقيم to Petra, because of the resemblance of its original name "Reqem or Raqmu".
Do you consider also other possible meanings for Al raqim الرقيم ?قُل رَّبِّـى أَعْلَمُ بِعِدَّتِـهِـم
You the Messenger pronounce, "My Sustainer Lord knows most certainly the exact number of them".
In the next sentence the information and advice is for the Messenger
مَّا يَعْلَمُهُـمْ إِلَّا قَلِيلٚۗ
Since except a small segment, people do not know them —
فَلَا تُمَارِ فِيـهِـمْ إِلَّا مِرَآءٙ ظَٟهِرٙا وَلَا تَسْتَفْتِ فِيـهِـم مِّنْـهُـمْ أَحَدٙا .1822٢٢
Therefore, you should not enter into controversy about them except the evidently visible point and nor you should enquire about them from any one of them.This information advice does not refer about بِعِدَّتِـهِـم.
... مَّا يَعْلَمُهُمْ إِلَّا قَلِيلٌ ...
Shouldn't it be like that
1822 ...Only a few know about them...
https//www.islamawakened.com/quran/18/22/
والله اعلم
Allah knows best. -
By combining "hypothesis" 2 and 3
Why else do you think we are telling you about the people of the cave, and the inscription that enumerate them? They are among our wondrous signs.
Confirm by the textual context as early said.
The bold is a separate dependent sentence while there is no such thing in SLT. Case endings/Irab is the heart of Arabic grammar. It is Ashab-arRaqeemi.
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Salaam,
Thanks.
It helped me immediately detect omission in my parsing into sentences. They are two separate sentences. Second not about number.
سَيَقُولُونَ ثَلٟثَةٚ رَّابِعُهُـمْ كَلْبُـهُـمْ
People will keep saying that they were three in number and fourth companion of them was their dog —
وَيَقُولُونَ خَـمْسَةٚ سَادِسُهُـمْ كَلْبُـهُـمْ رَجْـمَاۢبِٱلْغَيْبِۖ
And others will say that they were five in number and sixth companion of them was their dog, hurling imaginary thoughts —
وَيَقُولُونَ سَبْعَةٚ وَثَامِنُـهُـمْ كَلْبُـهُـمْۚ
And yet others will say that they were seven in number and eighth companion was their dog.
قُل رَّبِّـى أَعْلَمُ بِعِدَّتِـهِـم
You the Messenger pronounce, "My Sustainer Lord knows most certainly the exact number of them".
مَّا يَعْلَمُهُـمْ إِلَّا قَلِيلٚۗ
Since except a small segment, people do not know them —
فَلَا تُمَارِ فِيـهِـمْ إِلَّا مِرَآءٙ ظَٟهِرٙا وَلَا تَسْتَفْتِ فِيـهِـم مِّنْـهُـمْ أَحَدٙا .1822٢٢Therefore, you should not enter into controversy about them except the evidently visible point and nor you should enquire about them from any one of them.
Peace Mazhar,
Agree that ما يعلمهم الا قليل does not refer to بعدتهم , but to them,
otherwise I think it would say يعلمهاbut why do you conclude that ما يعلمهم الا قليل means
"Since except a small segment, people do not know them".
Could you explain what other translators missed ?
https//www.islamawakened.com/quran/18/22/
والله اعلم
Allah knows best. -
Salaam,
Peace Mazhar,
Agree that ما يعلمهم الا قليل does not refer to بعدتهم , but to them,
otherwise I think it would say يعلمهاbut why do you conclude that ما يعلمهم الا قليل means
"Since except a small segment, people do not know them".
Could you explain what other translators missed ?
https//www.islamawakened.com/quran/18/22/
والله اعلم
Allah knows best.Because of the sentence structure negation and then exception. Ma and La structure. Verb is in Indicative Mood; covering present and future timeline. Subject of a verb needs to be specified. Qaleel is just quantification noun.
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Salaam,
Because of the sentence structure negation and then exception. Ma and La structure. Verb is in Indicative Mood; covering present and future timeline. Subject of a verb needs to be specified. Qaleel is just quantification noun.
Peace Mazhar,
Thanks for taking time to answer,
I am familiar with basic Arabic, less with grammar rules.Do the grammar rules also allow for
ما يعلمهم الا قليل to mean "Not knows them except few",like others have translated, or are they wrong, and of course both statements cannot be true.
https//www.islamawakened.com/quran/18/22/default.htm
والله اعلم
Allah knows best. -
Thanks.
It helped me immediately detect omission in my parsing into sentences. They are two separate sentences. Second not about number.
سَيَقُولُونَ ثَلٟثَةٚ رَّابِعُهُـمْ كَلْبُـهُـمْ
People will keep saying that they were three in number and fourth companion of them was their dog —
وَيَقُولُونَ خَـمْسَةٚ سَادِسُهُـمْ كَلْبُـهُـمْ رَجْـمَاۢبِٱلْغَيْبِۖ
And others will say that they were five in number and sixth companion of them was their dog, hurling imaginary thoughts —
وَيَقُولُونَ سَبْعَةٚ وَثَامِنُـهُـمْ كَلْبُـهُـمْۚ
And yet others will say that they were seven in number and eighth companion was their dog.
قُل رَّبِّـى أَعْلَمُ بِعِدَّتِـهِـم
You the Messenger pronounce, "My Sustainer Lord knows most certainly the exact number of them".
مَّا يَعْلَمُهُـمْ إِلَّا قَلِيلٚۗ
Since except a small segment, people do not know them —
فَلَا تُمَارِ فِيـهِـمْ إِلَّا مِرَآءٙ ظَٟهِرٙا وَلَا تَسْتَفْتِ فِيـهِـم مِّنْـهُـمْ أَحَدٙا .1822٢٢Therefore, you should not enter into controversy about them except the evidently visible point and nor you should enquire about them from any one of them.
Yes you're right. I was wrong too. 2 differents sentences.
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Yes you're right. I was wrong too. 2 differents sentences.
clarification Yes 2 sentences but the second one includes the problem of the first sentence.
Other verses with classical translation
Quran, 1825
وَلَبِثُوا فِي كَهْفِهِمْ ثَلَاثَ مِائَةٍ سِنِينَ وَازْدَادُوا تِسْعًا
And they remained in their cave (for) three hundred years and add nine.
Quran, 1826
قُلِ اللَّهُ أَعْلَمُ بِمَا لَبِثُوا
Say, "Allah knows best about what they remained.Question / reflection What is the reference of these 3 subject pronouns to the end of these verbs?