Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
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I understand you very well and the way you present…
But brother, do you really think “FROM” is must to confirm the meaning of the verse.. or have you got any other meaning for “Bi” … it is not merely meaning “WITH / IN / BY” .. But, I hope you know that… so try to match the right option of “Bi”…it could be “IN REPLACEMENT OF/FOR”such as " We ransomed him in replacement of / for Slaughter Azeem (great/tremendous)
Peace........................
I wonder why all the translations in corpus.quran used ‘OF’ for verse no 3701 for word “”Bi”…
FaBasharnaHu BiGhulam Haleem - So We gave Him OF a boy Forbearing…
All used “”OF”” instead of any other preposition for “”Bi””
But for 37107 used word “WITH” WaFadainaHu BiZibhin Azeem – definitely there must be grammatical rules..but it depend how they understood the verse to apply (with or of)
It shows translators have found that “Bi” gives the English meaning “”OF”” as well…if it was a critical word and not befit to quran we could have negated all the translators to suit quran, but this is a simple preposition of “Bi”…so they can’t go wrong in most probability depending on the verse 37101…
Instead of “Min” the word “Bi” in verse no. 37107 really befits to the incident took place…even grammatically… either use “OF, Because of, in replacement for, etc… I don’t think the word “Min” (from) should be there to get the exact meaning… Coz incident (slaughtering didn’t take place…we should differentiate first the meaning and usage of “OF” and “FROM” in a nutshell..…
*I was fortunately saved OF an accident….in fact didn’t face/involve the accident, but could have been unless for some reason……….
** I was fortunately saved FROM the accident… in fact did face/involved in the accident, but nothing happened though others have faced with unfortunate outcome of the incident..
Or else.. when knowing clearly.. for example- Pudding is made OF milk… very obvious that milk was the main ingredient and by the smell or by the look..
** Pudding is made FROM Sea Grass … not so obvious what are the ingredients, unless explained by the one who made it or with some other way..
Thus, if in case Ibrahim was slaughtering some others and till reach to his son then he was saved… if that is the scenario then the usage of “FROM” is much appropriate coz he was saved FROM terrible Slaughtering taking place prior to his son’s slaughter.. God knows, which word to use and what is used is in quran that remains….....let’s trace what actually God meant by what HE used…that’s it…
How far my explanation befits to the situation, I don’t know, but I don’t see anything wrong in the wording of Quran to mean that “We ransomed him of tremendous Slaughter”… After all something happened between Ibrahim and his son… let’s get close to trace what happened. .In my side I have furnished the evidences to the extreme end within quran which I never knew prior to research honestly… I learned a lot from my own research and from others here in this topic….
- Pudding is made OF milk… very obvious that milk was the main ingredient and by the smell or by the look..
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I wonder why all the translations in corpus.quran used ‘OF’ for verse no 3701 for word “”Bi”…
FaBasharnaHu BiGhulam Haleem - So We gave Him OF a boy Forbearing…
All used “”OF”” instead of any other preposition for “”Bi””Root ف د ى needs to be studied. The instrument by which one is ransomed or released/absolved of some obligation, which may be forced one or voluntarily undertaken, it is mentioned by preposition Bi.
This Root occurs 13 times. See all ayahs
http//haqeeqat.pk/roots/(1093).htm
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Salaam,
peace ibn_a,
So according to you, for example in 2196, if someone is ill, they do fidya, e.g. by sawm, and they are in a better mental/physical situation?
No, more accurately, it improves their situation in the eyes of God....
Peace Wakas,
See it this way
My view is that (some) believers may feel guilty (mental situation), and/or feel excluded for not being able to do ( the) (some) commandments/recommandations, so giving them other options, could help remove/Reduce their guilty feelings, and/or feeling excluded ---> restore/improve their (mental) situation....
I'm not sure how you came to the view a father leaving his son is something positive but if you meant positive in the eyes of God, i.e. he passed the test, then yes. You will note the use of azeem, it is a word with a nuance of grievous about it, to denote severity/significant, which again fits into my view.
red in quote mine.
peace ibn_a,
As I mentioned previously HERE the pronoun "hu" could refer to either Abraham or his son. In my understanding it doesn't seem to make a difference.
Thus, it would be either
- exchanged him (the son) with a mighty sacrifice, i.e. replaced the son with a mighty sacrifice Abraham made (by separating from his son)
- exchanged him (Abraham) with a mighty sacrifice, i.e. replaced Abraham with a mighty sacrifice the son made (by separating from his father)
Interestingly, such an event would have effected both, so each one will have experienced the above. This mighty deed was taken into account by God and he/they were rewarded as a result.
I take it as a play on words as mentioned in my article, quote
It is a self-contained explanation because there is absolutely nothing else in the context to explain it. I'm personally not a fan of inserting things into the text to explain Quran when there is no warrant, and especially if there is a fitting explanation that does not require an insertion.
red in quote mine.
Positive was not about "a father leaving his son" but about "the fidya".
What I understand is that you see the fidya as a sort of reward that god gave to Abraham in exchange for leaving his son Isaac/Ismael.
If it is a raward , there would bee no need to use the word fidya, I think that a fidya is not the same as a reward.
You seem to have understood my view when you said "You seem to have a wording preference for fidya, if so, fair enough.""A self-contained explanation" seems very abstract in my view.
God rewarded Abraham for leaving his son Isaac/Ismael with a mighty sacrifice.
While the mighty sacrifice (ie Abraham leaving his son Isaac/Ismael) was done by Abraham.
How did God reward Abraham for something Abraham did himself?والله اعلم
Allah knows best. -
Salaam,
Salaam,
Peace jkhan,
Although I can partially agree with some of your responses to the 10 points raised by Wakas,
but I do not think thatWa fadaynahu bi dhibhin atheem وفدينه بذبح عظيم
can mean We ransomed him of a disastrous (azeem) slaughter.... ,
if I did correctly understand what you mean.
If you were right, I think that the word to use would be من min dhibhin atheem.
The ransom/fidya is with dhibhin atheem not from dhibhin atheem
Perhaps that more knowledgeable members can correct or confirm?
والله اعلم
Allah knows best.Peace jkhan,
If your explanation of 37107 in the sense of "saving Abraham from doing what he saw in his dream", I think that another word would be more appropriate than fadaynahu
for example ---> نجينه najjaynahu
والله اعلم
Allah knows best. -
Salaam,
Peace jkhan,
If your explanation of 37107 in the sense of "saving Abraham from doing what he saw in his dream", I think that another word would be more appropriate than fadaynahu
for example ---> نجينه najjaynahu
والله اعلم
Allah knows best.Peace....... .....
Look brother.... There is a truth and that's One...
It would have been appropriate had you answered the matter we were discussing which is (Min) or (Bi) ... That was your concern so I involved... Now you skipped it and jumped to another.. Fine... Never mind...
Brother we can't alter words of Quran... First let's know that and keep reminding... God used words so let's approach meaning for it... As God says this Quran is in pure Arabic and further easy to understand.... Let's find the pure Arabic and make things easy...
To use Najjainahu.. The incident was not torture or without the willingness and acceptance of son Ismail... But both agreed and surrendered... There is nothing to SAVE.... Pls try to understand before raise questions with simple logic.. God used the perfect word... And try to fit your understanding accordingly. .. If anyone misunderstand the incident to be separation or etc other than slaughter then use logic whether SEPRATION fit for the incident.. That I negated in all my answers but I didn't receive any positive concrete response... Otherwise I would've definitely taken into, consideration. It's not such that I deny all others against my view... Coz God knows I look for guidance with clarity.... -
Salaam,
Peace....... .....
Look brother.... There is a truth and that's One...
It would have been appropriate had you answered the matter we were discussing which is (Min) or (Bi) ... That was your concern so I involved... Now you skipped it and jumped to another.. Fine... Never mind...
Brother we can't alter words of Quran... First let's know that and keep reminding... God used words so let's approach meaning for it... As God says this Quran is in pure Arabic and further easy to understand.... Let's find the pure Arabic and make things easy...
To use Najjainahu.. The incident was not torture or without the willingness and acceptance of son Ismail... But both agreed and surrendered... There is nothing to SAVE.... Pls try to understand before raise questions with simple logic.. God used the perfect word... And try to fit your understanding accordingly. .. If anyone misunderstand the incident to be separation or etc other than slaughter then use logic whether SEPRATION fit for the incident.. That I negated in all my answers but I didn't receive any positive concrete response... Otherwise I would've definitely taken into, consideration. It's not such that I deny all others against my view... Coz God knows I look for guidance with clarity....Peace jkhan,
My intention was not to skip or jump , but to add some information to my previous post, as you can see I quoted my previous post.(maybe "najjaynahu" was not a good example)
Not my intention to alter , as you said the words of God are precise.
Trying to explain that "fidya" has the sense of exchange.- An example from Lane's Lexicon ( read in context of 37107 and 2229)
http//arabiclexicon.hawramani.com/search/%D9%81%D8%AF%D9%8A?cat=50
b3 وَــفَدَيْــنَاهُ بِذِبْحٍ means And we made an animal prepared for sacrifice to be a ransom for him, and freed him from slaughter. (T, TA.)
b4 فَدَتْ نَفْسَهَا مِنْ زَوْجِهَا and ↓ افتدت mean She gave property to her husband so that she became free from him by divorce. (Msb, TA.)
This was also said by other members
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8.) please explain why Quran describes the sacrifice/dhibhin in 37107 as great/mighty/azeem?
Jkhan quotes "disastrous/great(great in the bad aspect) sacrifice", "something of unpleasant, evil oriented Azeem…Same way God absolutely delivered Abraham’s Son form a Azeem (Great) grievous Sacrifice.", "He was ransomed of a Horrible Sacrifice "Your interpretation fails according to the Arabic "exchange/ransom" means to swap A with/for B, i.e. swap son for/with something else, NOT save him from something. Simply ask yourself what was the son replaced with? Then let us know.
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=> "reeemed" = Ibn Faris says it means to give a thing in exchange of another, in order to save it (like a ransom), to protect it or to liberate it (as in 2184 - no siyam in exchange of feeding a poor)
...Root ف د ى needs to be studied. The instrument by which one is ransomed or released/absolved of some obligation, which may be forced one or voluntarily undertaken, it is mentioned by preposition Bi.
This Root occurs 13 times. See all ayahs
http//haqeeqat.pk/roots/(1093).htm
والله اعلم
Allah knows best. -
Salaam,
... (you will)*find me, if God willed, of the patient ones.
.....http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran-Abraham-sacrifice-son.html
Peace Wakas,
ستجدني ان شا الله من الصبرين ...
... satajiduni, in sha'a Allahu, mina alssabireena.
... you will find me, if God willed, of the patient ones.
- Doesn't that imply that
Abraham will experience / observe his son's patience? ( i.e. no separation?)
His son did not say for example I will be, if God willed, of the patient ones.
والله اعلم
Allah knows best. -
peace ibn_a,
- Doesn't that imply that
Abraham will experience / observe his son's patience? ( i.e. no separation?)
That's a decent point and yes it could imply that. We'd have to research all similar occurrences to be sure.
It could be argued when Abraham said goodbye and left he found his son to be patient AND he was later given news of his son as a prophet implying he was of the righteous and thus of the patient ones.
However the evidence is in favour of the following point
- The future particle "sa" occurs over 100 times in Quran. Can you provide one example of usage which matches how you claim it is used here, i.e. what comes after particle "sa" refers to an ongoing future activity that occurs prior to what came before particle "sa"?
Let me clarify, here is structure of the Arabic ABC <future particle sa> XYZ
My view is XYZ occurs in the future, i.e. after ABC.Your view is XYZ occurs prior to ABC or XYZ occurs until ABC takes place.
Which means that if someone can come up with an explanation that fits better, bearing in mind the above, then I'm all ears. At the moment I don't see any better alternative.
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Peace,
FM translation
37102 And when he grew enough to work with him, he said "My son, I am seeing in a dream that I am sacrificing you. What do you think?" He said "O my father, do what you are commanded / if'al ma tu/maru to do. You will find me, God willing, patient."The son of Abraham did not say to his father Do what you saw or see in your dream or do what you have been commanded / if'al ma omirta as in the following verse
3911 Say "I have been commanded / Ineee omirtu to serve God, devoting the system to Him."
37103 So when they both had submitted,wa tallahu liljabeeni.
So when they both had submitted to do what abraham is commanded, not what Abraham is seing in a dream. Abraham did not say "I have been commanded to sacrifice you".
I undestand "wa tallahu liljabeeni" as a mark of approval and total submission of Abraham and his son to what he is commanded.
37105 "You have carried out the vision." It was such that We rewarded the righteous.
37110 It is thus that We reward the righteous.
Abraham is rewarded because he has carried out the vision and he did not execute the vision, he submits himself to God, and he is a good doer / righteous
4125 And who is better in the system than the one who submits himself to God, and he is a good doer, and he follows the creed of Abraham in monotheism? And God took Abraham as a friend.
3122 And whoever submits himself completely to God, while he is righteous, indeed he has taken grasp of the strongest hold. And to God is the conclusion of all matters.
37107 And We ransomed him with a great animal sacrifice.
Abraham was rewarded by a great sacrifice instead of the sacrifice of his son in his vision. God knows the true interpretation of Abraham's vision.
God knows best.
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Yusuf’ story is a clear example for family separation.
Years of separation between parents and beloved child -(1284-86). This also happened by God’s (the Just/Wise/Judicious) will/permission.
Unlike Abraham’s story, here it was unexpected and Yusuf was much younger compared to Abraham’s son. And the parents meet him long after his childhood & adolescence. -
Salaam,
peace ibn_a,
That's a decent point and yes it could imply that. We'd have to research all similar occurrences to be sure.
It could be argued when Abraham said goodbye and left he found his son to be patient AND he was later given news of his son as a prophet implying he was of the righteous and thus of the patient ones.
However the evidence is in favour of the following point
- The future particle "sa" occurs over 100 times in Quran. Can you provide one example of usage which matches how you claim it is used here, i.e. what comes after particle "sa" refers to an ongoing future activity that occurs prior to what came before particle "sa"?
Let me clarify, here is structure of the Arabic ABC <future particle sa> XYZ
My view is XYZ occurs in the future, i.e. after ABC.Your view is XYZ occurs prior to ABC or XYZ occurs until ABC takes place.
Which means that if someone can come up with an explanation that fits better, bearing in mind the above, then I'm all ears. At the moment I don't see any better alternative.
boldmine
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*Arabic "sa" is a prefixed particle (i.e. coming before the verb "find me" indicating action in the future. The obvious problem for the conventional understanding is how can one be of the patient ones after having been sacrificed/killed?
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http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran-Abraham-sacrifice-son.htmlPeace Wakas,
If I fully understand what you mean, I don't see an issue about "Sa" / سَ
I think that when his son said ... you will find me, if God willed, of the patient ones. / ... satajiduni, in sha'a Allahu, mina alssabireena.
has not necessarily to be after, but could refer to the moment ( if3al ma tu amru ) i.e.
when Abraham would do what he saw in his dream, and like you said in the first part of your comment...when Abraham said goodbye and left he found his son to be patient AND...
والله اعلم
Allah knows best. - The future particle "sa" occurs over 100 times in Quran. Can you provide one example of usage which matches how you claim it is used here, i.e. what comes after particle "sa" refers to an ongoing future activity that occurs prior to what came before particle "sa"?
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peace ibn_a,
What I said refers to AFTER (and immediately after) he had enacted the vision, hence my use of "said" not "says". Not at the moment (i.e. in the process of doing) or was about to enact. That's the difference.
All you or anyone needs to do is bring one example from the over 100 uses of "sa" in Quran that matches with whatever you/anyone takes it to mean in this Abraham story. jkhan provided one example but issue is it depends on how you interpret that story, if it is taken as is commonly taken then it fails as an example.
What I'm asking is not difficult, but it seems getting an answer to my questions is proving difficult.
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Peace,
Thabaha / thibh / sacrifice as daraba / beat or cut off the hand have multiple meanings.
If we accept the meaning of sacrifice, there is no problem, abrahama confirmed his vision and obeys according to this verse
4125 And who is better in the system than the one who submits himself to God, and he is a good doer, and he follows the creed of Abraham in monotheism? And God took Abraham as a friend.
37106 Surely, this was an exacting test mubeen.
What does mean mubeen according the quran ?
37113 And We blessed him and Isaac. And from among their progeny, some are righteous, and some are clearly (mubeen) wicked.
Abraham's vision / clearly (mubeen) test, shows that Abraham is clearly righteous and not wicked.
37105 "You have carried out the vision." It was such that We rewarded the righteous.
The vision is a test that clarifies / bayyana / mubeen that Abraham is righteous / he is a good doer.
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Salaam,
peace ibn_a,
What I said refers to AFTER (and immediately after) he had enacted the vision, hence my use of "said" not "says". Not at the moment (i.e. in the process of doing) or was about to enact. That's the difference.
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*Arabic "sa" is a prefixed particle (i.e. coming before the verb "find me" indicating action in the future. The obvious problem for the conventional understanding is how can one be of the patient ones after having been sacrificed/killed?
....
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran-Abraham-sacrifice-son.htmlPeace Wakas,
Adapted my previous comment, but still don't see an issue about "Sa" / سَ
The conventional understanding
I think that when his son said ... you will find me, if God willed, of the patient ones. / ... satajiduni, in sha'a Allahu, mina alssabireena,
refers to the MOMENT ( if3al ma tu amru i.e when Abraham would do what he saw in his dream),
and NOT AFTER if3al ma tu amru.If patience refers to AFTER, then of course there would be a problem with the conventional understanding,
but if patience refers to the MOMENT, then I dont think there is an issue.Unless the Arabic language rules don't allow that it could be understood that way ( i.e. the conventional understanding).
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All you or anyone needs to do is bring one example from the over 100 uses of "sa" in Quran that matches with whatever you/anyone takes it to mean in this Abraham story. jkhan provided one example but issue is it depends on how you interpret that story, if it is taken as is commonly taken then it fails as an example.
What I'm asking is not difficult, but it seems getting an answer to my questions is proving difficult.
I don't know if there is an appropriate example, there could be, maybe some one knows about an example.
If there is no example, what do you think that it could mean for the Abraham leaving scenario and for the conventional understanding?والله اعلم
Allah knows best. -
peace,
Quote
I think that when his son said ... you will find me, if God willed, of the patient ones. / ... satajiduni, in sha'a Allahu, mina alssabireena,
refers to the MOMENT ( if3al ma tu amru i.e when Abraham would do what he saw in his dream),
and NOT AFTER if3al ma tu amru.if3al ma tu amru do what you order in the present,
Abraham's vision He did not say I was ordered to do. -
peace ibn_a,
What I said refers to AFTER (and immediately after) he had enacted the vision, hence my use of "said" not "says". Not at the moment (i.e. in the process of doing) or was about to enact. That's the difference.
All you or anyone needs to do is bring one example from the over 100 uses of "sa" in Quran that matches with whatever you/anyone takes it to mean in this Abraham story. jkhan provided one example but issue is it depends on how you interpret that story, if it is taken as is commonly taken then it fails as an example.
What I'm asking is not difficult, but it seems getting an answer to my questions is proving difficult.
<<<< <<< Cites 2827, which possibly works depending on how one interprets it
- 2827 means Moses would marry one of his daughters and go on to fulfill the condition set ---> does not work as a qualifying comparable example
- 2827 means Moses would fulfill the request then after that marry a daughter ---> does work
I haven't studied it in detail to see if we can glean from Quran which is meant but the flow suggests (1) is more likely.>> >>>>>
Above waqas's comment..
Peace Waqas...
In fact the flaw of verses says Musa married and seems to be fulfilled term only first part of the term that is to say 8 years.. As soon as he fulfilled the term (ajall not ajalain) he is leaving with his family (married family) fortunately God uses what Musa said in verse 2829...here the usage is in plural(aathikum, umkuthzu) that also 3 or more plural.. So it shows Musa's wife plus 2kids or more with him.. Coz they can only be Musa's family non other coz God called musa leaving after completing a term... So musa would not have married after completing the term but when they agreed initially.. Musa cannot have two more kids once completed 8 years and leave otherwise. ..
Here important thing is term agreement was only with musa and father in law not with his daughter... Musa agreed to the basic term 8 years... So he married.. Agreeing to the term is important completing or not completing is in Musa's hand and their family life...
So what you should consider is what Musa agreed with his father in law and not the time he completes.. The ACT is term agreement...
So they agreed, and marriage took place... That's the story.. So why not particle "SA' shouldn't match ... Musa didn't betray the term.. That was part of his married life in the end... Point to note is unless musa agreed the second part i.e marriage won't take place..
So act of agreeing to the requested term took place before marriage took place...
First... Agreement
Second.... MarriageIs that clear now dear brother waqas... Is your long pending particle 'Sa' issue satisfies you now? If not explain me why....
