The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
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peace,
When making a bold claim such as a potential contradiction in Quran it would be handy if you could clarify where exactly is the contradiction.
Peace brother,
Here, the text is clear by himself - i just put in evidence the text and the classic interpretation of the word siyam by qoting Jkhan - normally i do not have to explain more. But i will do it by answering Jkhan. -
Peace Dear brother....
Nice to see you back after a while...First of all nothing is my statement... Quran has stated and people are here to understand and their understanding of Quran speaks with words...
Accordingly... My understanding of siyam with thorough application of thought into it is non other but avoiding the consumption of food and drink and avoid sex during Nahar (Day)...
Does it contradict with what is written in Quran? If you claim so, it is your responsibility to explain how it contradicts rather than just wording; it contradicts... I may contradict but QURAN will never...
Look brother... Keep a very open mind... Forget who I am and the way you consider me as a person and only apply to your thought what I speak and not as a person... That attitude helps to perceive things... Hope you are already.... I cultivated that attitude long time back... That immensely helped me to understand regardless of who speaks with us... alright ... God knows why I said this... Anticipate you benefit...Meticulously look at the verse... When God says to eat and drink on the verge of the demise of Dawn then there must have meaning why He instructs us to eat at dawn before morning breaks in... Remember untill white thread clearly visible this period is night... Non but night... And the other end is start of Night. . God used two crucial words UNTIL and TILL.....
** God clarified sex is halal at night...(so if one take definition of night to be from darkness of dusk to clear white thread of Dawn... Then it is halal during that period)... Did Allah say "it is made lawful for you approaching your wives at Nahar(day)?.. .No... If day and night sex then what is siyam?.. Lol.. Remember the clear difference in Haj day and night sex is forbidden.. ...** God clarified eating and drinking to be done at night... If at night sex is allowed what is the use of forbidding food and drink...you want to starve and sex at night. ).. So food is allowed at night... That's common sense.. For sure... Note carefully...
Did God say eat and drink day and night...? NO... God put restrictions.. Restrictions started with the word UNTIL.... ..IF as claimed by sister Hourya, the process of eating and drinking is throughout (night and day) and there is no restrictions, then why God in the first place should say eat and drink UNTIL white thread.. That's absolutely nonsensical... Why the word Until is at all required for eating and drinking ..Now let's turn to TILL... IF siyam is throughout (day and night) why word TILL at all required...
God could have used for both UNTIL.. but God knows beyond anyone the knowledge of application of language...
Until is used because beyond that eating and drinking is waste of effort in the context of siyam.. We should stop... No point eating beyond... It's like mandatory statement by using UNTIL...
but for completing or in common language to breakfast God used TILL.. it's not looking mandatory at all.. You breakfast at that time or bit delay no harm.. Coz you already fasted... Delay in time beyond the time is harmless...even you don't eat and drink at breakfast no harm... Just we completed... It is not must we should eat.. Even only a glass of water woukd do... That's optional... But eating and drinking at the dawn beyond the time is waste... And specially at dawn God asks us to eat and drink and not while breakfast... Coz God doesn't want to give us hardship by having to fast without food....so simply those who are not affordable for food and drink at dawn is exempted from fasting.. No fasting in empty stomach.. That's common sense for all.. Isn't it..et me know those who claim that Siyam = Meditation for number of days nonstop...
Let me know how you do it?.. I will definitely in sha allah point out your flaws in it according to verses...In fact words of Allah speaks... It will only speak the truth
Salam brother,
ThanksI will not give here my definition of SIYAM coz it needs a big analysis, even if Allah give the answer directly by the text but we are blinded by our prejudices. I just want to focus on the fact that sawm is not SIYAM even if SAWM can be practice during the time of siyam OTHERWISE Allah is contradict himself and it is unacceptable for a mumin. Finally, I will not discuss AGAIN about the fact that "to fast" is NOT a transitive verb and to translate like this in 2-185 is grammatically incorrect, in english like in arabic.
After this parenthesis, i want to underline that you have reason to make a focus on the words ḥattā/until and ilā/till in 2-187.
ilā (à, vers in french) can be inclusive (not ḥattā) SO it is clear just by using this word that "eat and drink" is from ENTERING the night ḥattā/until the emergence of the dawn.You said "Meticulously look at the verse" - funny that's what i invited you too..just by the words of Allah not by any personal opinions.
So i am going to take back my example from the Quran"
Traditionnal statement SIYAM = "do not eat and drink during the day time."Let's look at what the Quran says in 2-187
First part
"And eat and drink until become separate from the thread white from the thread black of dawn.
Second part
"thumma/Then atimmū/complete l-ṣiyāma/the fast ilā/till al-layli/the night.
"Why is there a contradiction here between the traditionnal statement and words of Allah ?
the first part is NOT about siyam IF we follow the logic of the traditional statement, right ? because in the first part is about eating and drinking. Ok. Let's continue.
And now, in the second part, Allah asks you to "Complete" SIYAM until you entering the night. How is it possible to complete something that is not siyam ? So you have a contradiction here.
Hope my reasoning if more clear.To conclude just by using words of Allah
- SIYAM is a 24 hours period of time
- SAWM (in this context of 2-183...187 is about "not to eat and drink" - the word is implicit) is only during day time.
You will see that all the passage will become more clear after that.
A remark Allah doesn't say "and eat and drink and have sex..". Allah is precise and clear. Sorry but Rafatha doesn't means in the quranic context "having sexual relationship with a woman" but "say obscene and rude remarks" like in 2-197 (look at the context).
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Sawm is not fast also discussed before here, mentioned by brother wakas
http//quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=221.0
Peace Sister...
You can only siyam is not fasting.. You are free to remain upon your understanding.. But you have to debate and answer and convince by your debate...Nevertheless... If you are claiming that siyam is meditation secluding to Masajid... We are not to stop it.. You will definitely get the benefit for meditation.. Meditation and magnifying God is definitely worth doing that we have to do everyday if possible...
But you will probably lose the benefit of fasting coz... God says to fast and fasting makes us muttaqun... And fasting is better if you know.. That's what God says..
But even you don't fast you will never be penalized by God.. Coz it is not compulsory in a way to achieve success.. But it is compulsory on believers to be in a status of muttaqun... That's one of the criteria to become muttaqun...After all fasting is not mandatory thing that will take us to Janna... 231-10 and 7023-34 confirms it.. There no fasting at all... But still successful... But only we lose status...
May Allah guide us to what is right and let not He put us in error..
Note.. Waqas accept or not is not important for me.. Important is you or waqas or anyone says is within Quran and debated to convince.. That's key...
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Salam brother,
ThanksI will not give here my definition of SIYAM coz it needs a big analysis, even if Allah give the answer directly by the text but we are blinded by our prejudices. I just want to focus on the fact that sawm is not SIYAM even if SAWM can be practice during the time of siyam OTHERWISE Allah is contradict himself and it is unacceptable for a mumin. Finally, I will not discuss AGAIN about the fact that "to fast" is NOT a transitive verb and to translate like this in 2-185 is grammatically incorrect, in english like in arabic.
After this parenthesis, i want to underline that you have reason to make a focus on the words ḥattā/until and ilā/till in 2-187.
ilā (à, vers in french) can be inclusive (not ḥattā) SO it is clear just by using this word that "eat and drink" is from ENTERING the night ḥattā/until the emergence of the dawn.You said "Meticulously look at the verse" - funny that's what i invited you too..just by the words of Allah not by any personal opinions.
So i am going to take back my example from the Quran"
Traditionnal statement SIYAM = "do not eat and drink during the day time."Let's look at what the Quran says in 2-187
First part
"And eat and drink until become separate from the thread white from the thread black of dawn.
Second part
"thumma/Then atimmū/complete l-ṣiyāma/the fast ilā/till al-layli/the night.
"Why is there a contradiction here between the traditionnal statement and words of Allah ?
the first part is NOT about siyam IF we follow the logic of the traditional statement, right ? because in the first part is about eating and drinking. Ok. Let's continue.
And now, in the second part, Allah asks you to "Complete" SIYAM until you entering the night. How is it possible to complete something that is not siyam ? So you have a contradiction here.
Hope my reasoning if more clear.To conclude just by using words of Allah
- SIYAM is a 24 hours period of time
- SAWM (in this context of 2-183...187 is about "not to eat and drink" - the word is implicit) is only during day time.
You will see that all the passage will become more clear after that.
A remark Allah doesn't say "and eat and drink and have sex..". Allah is precise and clear. Sorry but Rafatha doesn't means in the quranic context "having sexual relationship with a woman" but "say obscene and rude remarks" like in 2-197 (look at the context).
Peace...
If you are not sure what the definition of siyam then you don't have any right to claim by saying contradiction... Isn't it..
If you feel you are prejudiced to traditional siyam then I can't help.. But I am never ever prejudiced to anything but only look for mere guidance...
So you workout first your understanding then let us all know your understanding...
I have given my understanding already...Further if siyam is not fasting and something else in your understanding just explain what is it and how you do it... That's worthy for the readers.. Even I ask this form sister Hourya
Peace -
Further... I should have replied this...
You are saying contradiction emphasising that FIRST part and SECOND part..
That's funny.. You divided into parts... Your misunderstanding made you to claim up to the extent of saying contradiction...
There is no parts..
Brother... How can one fast without eating... Isn't it the responsibility of God to explain what to do before fast.. Otherwise people would continue for days without eating or they would take it as 24 hours fasting by only eating at the advent of night only...
Look brother.. Take example of Salat... God says four steps before salat.. 4 body parts to be cleaned unless of course if we had a full bath..
So this cleaning part is not part of Salat but prior to Salat it is kind of a practice which is imperative..
Same way... Before fasting eating and drinking is must... What's wrong with logic? I wonder..
So first part is must though it is not part of fasting but without it there is no fasting... Got it? -
peace,
"
Traditionnal statement SIYAM = "do not eat and drink during the day time."Let's look at what the Quran says in 2-187
First part
"And eat and drink until become separate from the thread white from the thread black of dawn.
Second part
"thumma/Then atimmū/complete l-ṣiyāma/the fast ilā/till al-layli/the night.
"Why is there a contradiction here between the traditionnal statement and words of Allah ?
the first part is NOT about siyam IF we follow the logic of the traditional statement, right ? because in the first part is about eating and drinking. Ok. Let's continue.
And now, in the second part, Allah asks you to "Complete" SIYAM until you entering the night. How is it possible to complete something that is not siyam ? So you have a contradiction here.
Hope my reasoning if more clear.To conclude just by using words of Allah
- SIYAM is a 24 hours period of time
- SAWM (in this context of 2-183...187 is about "not to eat and drink" - the word is implicit) is only during day time.
You will see that all the passage will become more clear after that.
That is not a contradiction. The error is in your reasoning. Let's work through it step by step...
The verse literally says
do X and Y until Z then complete siyam to the nightIf someone says to you "do X and Y until Z", it is clear Z is the point at which doing X and Y ends. When/after Z occurs there is no more doing X and Y.
Do you agree/disagree?
If you disagree please explain why.
If you agree, then it is clear at point Z eating/drinking ends, and thus a fast has begun. Thus, when it then says "THEN complete the siyam to night" is self-explanatory, i.e. complete the fast that has already begun (at point Z) to the night.
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@ Jkhan= debate is useless and sterile with you. Your opinion is so strong and you don't really take time to meditate quranic evidence i exposed you. Probably my bad english.
@ Wakas
"If someone says to you "do X and Y until Z", it is clear Z is the point at which doing X and Y ends. When/after Z occurs there is no more doing X and Y.Do you agree/disagree?"
=> Of course yes..The problem between us i think is about the word "complete/atimmu". For you siyam begins at dawn and for me it must be completed at day time. the word complete implies that something was starting before. -
Peace Jkhan,
My goal is to share my understanding, I have no power to convince anyone.
Only God can enlighten us.
We must take the time to meditate each verse in order to see clearly later.
Meditation can help to see things clearly in different aspects of our life
I meditated on Nawat's article several days before I decided to share it with you and discuss it.
No worries if we agree on our disagreement.
May God increases our knowledge
God bless
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@ Jkhan= debate is useless and sterile with you. Your opinion is so strong and you don't really take time to meditate quranic evidence i exposed you. Probably my bad english.
@ Wakas
"If someone says to you "do X and Y until Z", it is clear Z is the point at which doing X and Y ends. When/after Z occurs there is no more doing X and Y.Do you agree/disagree?"
=> Of course yes..The problem between us i think is about the word "complete/atimmu". For you siyam begins at dawn and for me it must be completed at day time. the word complete implies that something was starting before.Iyykaka...
If you find it hard to debate with me.. It's fine I won't compel you... I don't see that you have perceived Siyam... Nothing you exposed.. You yourself claimed that there is contradiction.. Only one thing God prescribed that's Siyam... No 24 hours of period of siyam... Siyam is only when that happens... That's why God clarifies and allow approaching wives at night to negate such misunderstanding... If it was restricted before revelation of Quran approaching wives at night is not known coz QURAN only we look for guidance.. Since those who perform fasting even before Quran revelations seems to be somehow have approached their wives at night and that God pardoning saying betraying self. So if God pardons then must have been restrictions at night for approaching wife... That's not necessary for us.. Coz Quran clarifies No to wives during day..Yes at night.. We are not the community before Quran but after..Your English has no flaws n I understand... I agree my English is the weakest coz I know how bad I was in English at college even now... But Law is my favorite subject...
Had I known to explain using best language within few sentences I would have... But always use longer threads coz that's how I am comfortable to explain.. For that I beg you pardon from all... Be patient while reading my threads..No grudges okay dude Iyykaka.. We search for guidance...
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Peace Jkhan,
My goal is to share my understanding, I have no power to convince anyone.
Only God can enlighten us.
We must take the time to meditate each verse in order to see clearly later.
Meditation can help to see things clearly in different aspects of our life
I meditated on Nawat's article several days before I decided to share it with you and discuss it.
No worries if we agree on our disagreement.
May God increases our knowledge
God bless
Peace Sister..
Convince doesn't mean that I or you or anyone should make other believe in what is debated and make them guide... No.. No... God will guide.. What I always mean by convince is.. We debate and if we all involved in debate then it is with the willingness we participate.. So what is debated should have meaning with the Quran.... And the questions of other debators should be precisely answered... If one remains on his or her own conviction... So we can deduce that the conviction of her or his is within the context of Quran... We are not here to debate uselessly or to pass time.. While someone exposing and at that time withdraw and say "my understanding is for me and your understanding is for you".. Then no point of arguing... At some point we should stop the same topic of argument with conclusion... Coz God says He clarifies His verses.. And it seems 2183-187 are simple manifest verses... How come I am on one side and you are on another side and others may be in some other side.. Who is right? What is actually God revealed and what Mohamed practiced and what his people practiced calling siyam.. Let's approach that one truth... Escaping saying I am doing what I'm doing is meaningless...
Further... I missed to state below...
God prescribed Siyam and not Sawm...
2183 " O you who have believed, prescibed upon you is fasting (SIYAM) as it was prescribed upon those before you that you may become righteous."God prescribed Siyam... If you confuse it as Sawm... Then better explore... That's why I brought order of revelation. .after prescribing Siyam in verse 2183 all Siyam verses revealed... And not before 2183...
But the word Sawm in chapter 19 is revealed even well before the verse 2183 revealed.... Coz chapter 19 was revealed as 44th sura and chapter 2 in which fasting was prescribed is revealed as 87th Sura....(2196, 492, 589, 595, 5804, 3335 all these Siyam verses revealed after 2183 but)That's order of revelation.... (Sawm in 1926 was revealed well before all above verses and all verses are siyam but 1926 is not siyam but Sawm) In my assumptions order of revelation is precise...
Sawm in 1926 has no connection with Siyam in rest of the quran... Siyam is not Sawm...
Further Maryam didn't say Siyam... We don't vowe a Siyam for God... But we fast (Siyam) for ourselves for our own benefit and to become muttaqun and to get status which we don't know but God promises...
But Maryam vowed a Sawm for Arrahman.. That's the difference... When we vowe there is a commitment between us and God... Fasting is not a vowe at all... -
peace,
@ Wakas
"If someone says to you "do X and Y until Z", it is clear Z is the point at which doing X and Y ends. When/after Z occurs there is no more doing X and Y.Do you agree/disagree?"
=> Of course yes..The problem between us i think is about the word "complete/atimmu". For you siyam begins at dawn and for me it must be completed at day time. the word complete implies that something was starting before.Sorry, but you have contradictory positions.
On the one hand you agree (at Z no more X and Y, ergo, a fast has started at point Z) but then say "the word complete implies that something was starting before ". You already admitted (indirectly) it (a fast) has started, so what's the problem?
Your position makes no sense and is contradictory.
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Peace,
2184 A few number of days. Whoever of you is ill or traveling, then the same count from different days; and as for those who can do so but with difficulty, they may redeem by feeding the needy. And whoever does good voluntarily, then it is better for him. And if you fast it / waan tasoomoo is better for you if only you knew.
2185 Shahr Ramadhan, in which the Qur'an was sent down as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Those of you who have witnessed alshashahr shall fast it / falyasumu; and whoever is ill or traveling, then the same count from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and magnify God for what He has guided you to, and that you may be thankful.
When one had witnessed Shahr Ramadhan, what are we doing ?
I asoom, you tasoom / tasoomoo, we nasoom, the action is sawm, the same letters are repeated S W M.
what did this Marie did during the action of sawm, she tasoom (S W M).
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Peace,
2184 A few number of days. Whoever of you is ill or traveling, then the same count from different days; and as for those who can do so but with difficulty, they may redeem by feeding the needy. And whoever does good voluntarily, then it is better for him. And if you fast it / waan tasoomoo is better for you if only you knew.
2185 Shahr Ramadhan, in which the Qur'an was sent down as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Those of you who have witnessed alshashahr shall fast it / falyasumu; and whoever is ill or traveling, then the same count from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and magnify God for what He has guided you to, and that you may be thankful.
When one had witnessed Shahr Ramadhan, what are we doing ?
I asoom, you tasoom / tasoomoo, we nasoom, the action is sawm, the same letters are repeated S W M.
what did this Marie did during the action of sawm, she tasoom (S W M).
Dear Sister....
Don't confuse yourself in the hunt of substantiating your claim with clear Arabic word usage...
Root is same I mentioned in my reply #16... Just coz root doesn't mean that the meaning also will become same...
While forming verb from root.. It may look same... That's how all Arabic words... For example take word salah.. Root is ṣād lām wāw (S L W)..
All noun is not prayer and while forming Verb from root it may look similar but different meaning... Example 339 'Yusalli' here it means (verb) praying... 3343 'Yusalli' here it means (verb) blessing...So 'Sawm' 1926 is same root but different meaning... Most probably being Silent...
Dear sister.. Just once again carefully look the word 'Nadzrathu' in 1926 .. Do you accept it means Vow (pledging or making a solemn promise)... It is a vow even you accept or not.. Take example of another word 'nadzarthu'.. Maryam's mother made in verse 335 "when the wife of 'Imran said, "My Lord, indeed I have pledged (Nadzarthu) to You(God) what is in my womb, consecrated so accept this from me. Indeed, You are the Hearing, the Knowing."
These pledging or solemn promise or vow (Nadzarth) is not at all part of compulsory act in deen.. It is one's own wish willingly and they decide in their own to do something for God.. But whether God accept or not such act is only within God's decision... But once anyone made such solemn promise is not exempted from doing it.. They have to accomplish it... Suppose If I promise to God that I will give 100 poor people with new clothing if I pass the exam... So in case if he passes he has to accomplish it... Coz it is an agreement you made with your Lord.. You can't escape... That's my understanding...So my dear sister... What is prescribed by Allah to perform in 2184 is not a Vow... It's a command of God and not our own option..
Pls try to ponder...
That's all dear..Note if one vows or make a solemn promise to God saying "If I found my lost child, I would fast five days... Then in case she or he found the child she or he should fast five days... People may vow anything making a contact with God.. So it should be accomplished... 767 "They fulfill vows(Nadzar) and fear a Day whose evil will be widespread"
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peace,
Sorry, but you have contradictory positions.
On the one hand you agree (at Z no more X and Y, ergo, a fast has started at point Z) but then say "the word complete implies that something was starting before ". You already admitted (indirectly) it (a fast) has started, so what's the problem?
Your position makes no sense and is contradictory.
Salam,
Sorry but you will be less confuse if you are concentrated (Let's have a look at my conclusion again) But I can understand that it is not easy because you, as the big majority of muslims, do not undertsand the real difference between sawm and siyam. You canno't be agree with me but at least try to understand my reasoning as you were meFurther explanations
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The day can be divided in 2 parts from sunset to dawn (period 1) and from dawn to sunset (period 2).
Agree ? If Yes we can continue -
The MAIN subject of the passage (2-183..187) is about SIYAM.
Agree ? If Yes we can continue.
Now, 2 sentences from quran (Each of these sentences corresponds to one of the periods mentioned above)
- First sentence "And eat and drink until become separate from the thread white from the thread black of dawn." = period 1
2 characteristics
- SIYAM ? YES.
- SAWM ? NO.
- Second sentence ""thumma/Then atimmū/complete l-ṣiyāma/the fast ilā/till al-layli/the night." = period 2
2 characteristics
- SIYAM ? YES.
- SAWM ? YES.
This understanding is logical with Allah words (atimmū/complete). In (2-183...187), SAWM (understanding in this particular context as "not eating and drinking" must be doing DURING the SIYAM period (24 hours) but not all the day.
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The definition of siyam in this verse
1926 "So eat and drink and be content. If you see any mortal, then say 'I have vowed an abstinence / sawman for the Almighty, so I will not talk today to any of mankind.'"
1910 He said "My Lord, make for me a sign." He said "Your sign is that you will not speak to the people for three nights consecutively."
341 He said "My Lord, make for me a sign." He said "Your sign is not to speak to the people for three days except by symbol, and remember your Lord greatly, and glorify at dusk and dawn."
Mary and Zachariah refrained from speaking which makes sense when one is retired.
"It has been made permissible for you during the night of siyam".
Does the night include the day as for Zachariah?
The restriction "until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn" concern only to approach your women sexually. That makes sense when one is in retreat in the masjid.
The verse 2185 explains the start of siyam and why it's so important, to magnify God for what He has guided you to.
Concerning Maryam, the event is related to her having the newborn child with her and her being asked about it. So she is advised to say (and that means speaking) that she has vowed to the Rahmaan sawm and therefore that day will not speak to anybody. That continues even when she returns to her people and she does not anser questions about the child, simply points to him. So it is all related to her bein in the situation she was, as a other with newborn or baby, no husband or fathe and it is following devine advise that she does not answer questions because she has vowed thatto the Rahmaan.
Salaam
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Salam,
Sorry but you will be less confuse if you are concentrated (Let's have a look at my conclusion again) But I can understand that it is not easy because you, as the big majority of muslims, do not undertsand the real difference between sawm and siyam. You canno't be agree with me but at least try to understand my reasoning as you were meFurther explanations
-
The day can be divided in 2 parts from sunset to dawn (period 1) and from dawn to sunset (period 2).
Agree ? If Yes we can continue -
The MAIN subject of the passage (2-183..187) is about SIYAM.
Agree ? If Yes we can continue.
Now, 2 sentences from quran (Each of these sentences corresponds to one of the periods mentioned above)
- First sentence "And eat and drink until become separate from the thread white from the thread black of dawn." = period 1
2 characteristics
- SIYAM ? YES.
- SAWM ? NO.
- Second sentence ""thumma/Then atimmū/complete l-ṣiyāma/the fast ilā/till al-layli/the night." = period 2
2 characteristics
- SIYAM ? YES.
- SAWM ? YES.
This understanding is logical with Allah words (atimmū/complete). In (2-183...187), SAWM (understanding in this particular context as "not eating and drinking" must be doing DURING the SIYAM period (24 hours) but not all the day.
Interesting when reading after long time..
But brother Iyyaka in case if you are still around why not explain what is Siyam and Sawm in your understanding...@waqas.. I wish you respond to this thread of Iyyaka which he directed at you...
Anyway... Siyam in my understanding as of now cannot be leaving food and drink... Sister Hourya makes sense.. But.. I have no capacity to debate this since I have realized only but don't have the concrete proof to substantiate to others...
Thank you...
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Salam,
Sorry but you will be less confuse if you are concentrated (Let's have a look at my conclusion again) But I can understand that it is not easy because you, as the big majority of muslims, do not undertsand the real difference between sawm and siyam. You canno't be agree with me but at least try to understand my reasoning as you were meFurther explanations
-
The day can be divided in 2 parts from sunset to dawn (period 1) and from dawn to sunset (period 2).
Agree ? If Yes we can continue -
The MAIN subject of the passage (2-183..187) is about SIYAM.
Agree ? If Yes we can continue.
Now, 2 sentences from quran (Each of these sentences corresponds to one of the periods mentioned above)
- First sentence "And eat and drink until become separate from the thread white from the thread black of dawn." = period 1
2 characteristics
- SIYAM ? YES.
- SAWM ? NO.
- Second sentence ""thumma/Then atimmū/complete l-ṣiyāma/the fast ilā/till al-layli/the night." = period 2
2 characteristics
- SIYAM ? YES.
- SAWM ? YES.
This understanding is logical with Allah words (atimmū/complete). In (2-183...187), SAWM (understanding in this particular context as "not eating and drinking" must be doing DURING the SIYAM period (24 hours) but not all the day.
I feel something very strong in his statements... Though failed grasp in the first instance..
Reflected day and night..
You know my fellow believers.. God says in 2189 that Hilal is indication for Haj and stress to enter from front door.. It clearly indicate that Haj begins with new moon and 2197 is clear that Haj is not in a single month but more than three further God says four months are Hurm (restricted).. And God continues in chapter 2 what to perform in when one has taken Haj in his life... So from the new moon it goes on and it is several days.. And then when came to completing stage in verse 2203 it is obvious the ending of Haj is in Ayyamin madudath.. So if Ayyamin madudath is end of haj in a month out of four months then what these Ayyamin madudath is in fact.. Ayyamin madudath cannot be new moon... If you read verses 2203 it is very obvious that Ayyamin madudath is three days... So it obvious that Haj in a particular months starting from new moon and ends in full moon... So if ayyamin madudath is full moon and three days in verse 2203 then what is ayyamin madudath when it comes to Siyam in verse 2184.. Yes.. It is full moon and three days...
Note.. One intelligent person could ask.. Is verse number 2185 and 2187 not enough to fast one whole month (lunar) like conventionally fasting... What is the use of verse 2184 at all... Difference is three days only God's instructions...
And it seems like the verse 2187 is speaking eat and drink until Fajr (clear) .. But it is instruction to eat and drink and enjoy sexual relations since it is allowed then Siyam fall at Fajr don't have sex and complete after three days ila Night... So from Fajr of Full moon until full moon dissapear when it rises at night... All these period (three days) are siyam mainly Aakifun (in devotion).. But allpwed is sex at night but still siyam... Having food and drink is part of life and enjoyment and necessity... No restriction for food and drink.. It seems like it was stated so but in depth if you perceive it is not for and drink but it was indication of beginning time of siyam.. So restriction is only to sex throughout siyam except night...
Yes.. Siyam is 24 hours and continuous throughout visible full moon three days.. During which sex is allowed as mercy at night...
May Allah bless us all believers with true guidance.. If we fault May Allah correct us..
Thank you..
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Salam..
Few are privately asking me and previously also asked me the question...
If Quran orders to fast in Full moon three days, does it mean to fast(siyam) every full moon throughout the year?..And further asks if not every full moon, then when exactly?...
Very challenging question but answer is and should be within quran if one wants to enhance his or her status to Muththakun.. Remember mere siyam won't make one to muttaqun.. Read 6153 following Quran itself(straight path) makes one to muttaqun (la'allakum thaththakun) ..
Let me describe my understanding..
First of all in my understanding Siyam is in THE full Moon days that is to say three days..If every month the full moon days are siyam, then verse 2184 is enough for the sake of Siyam since Ayyamin madudath itself the full moon three days regardless which month or which full moon.. . Since Allah has elaborated in addition to 2184 in a specific manner in the verse 2185, it cannot be merely every full Moon days.. It could have beeen if there is no WORD of Ramadan in verse 2185 to deduce it is in every full moon days.. But Ramadhan in the verse indicates that Siyam is not every full moon days but only in one particular full moon days in a calendar year..
Normally months names are specifically placed in a language in anceint times based on seasons or special events or their specific gods etc.. So the months indicate throughout the year that exclusively.. Arabic months also have the same characteristics by its name... It is not part of Quran but part of human necessity that they named them to facilitate their regional values and seasons.. Based on that if we take the area of Jordan and northern Arabian peninsula and gulf of Aqaba of Egypt, the names of months do suit to the seasons and special events etc. ... For me I don't see any difference to Gregorian calendar (solar) with Arabic calender (lunar-now).. I mean to say in my thorough understanding January is absolutely equal to Muharram and identical all other months.. .. Yes it is lunar nowadays but no one calculates 29.5 but 30 is perfect.. So no reason that Lunar calender fall behind.. So it was obvious Lunar-Solar calendar was the one it was used in the anceint times in arabia since the names of months are identical to either seasons or their special events etc.. The names of months should not befool the seasons and events that they have named them.. That should befit. Otherwise simply That's ridiculous...
So ramadhan is undoubtedly identical to the month of September.. Moreover Allah had restricted 4 months with intent and in these months are identical for the purpose of Haj. Aren't they? And they are not be altered.. And they are 10th 11th 12th and 1st month in my comprehensive understanding ... On top of that these four months seasons/climates are perfect for long pilgrimage in the area allocated for it from Ibrahim to Mohamed .. Never neglect the fact that four restricted months are continuos and not isolated months according to wording of Quran..
Moreover.. The usage of words in verse 2185 precise.. As you have noticed at the beginning of verse 2185 it only says Shahr Ramadhan.. Not added AL to Shahr nor to Ramadhan.. But AL is added to shahr later part of the verse for the purpose Siyam..
It is manifest by this that A full Moon in Ramad was revealed Quran.. Full moon has three visible nights which can be claimed as full moon.. But God revealed only in one of those Nights during full Moon.. Not all three nights.. So God rightly used Shahr (a full moon) instead of the Full moon
.. But precisely commanded when it comes to Siyam The Full Moon (AL Shahr) since Ayyamin madudath are three full moon days.. Notice the difference.. Just said Shahr for revelation of Quran since it was one night but used AL shahr since command is to Siyam all the three days of the Full moon of Ramadhan.. Had Allah mentioned AL shahr Ramadhan then it would mean that Quran was first revealed in all three nights of the Full moon in Ramad .. To simplify.. There is a big difference to say for example it was held in a full moon day and to say it was held in the full moon days.. So mere Shahr and AL shahr indicates the contrasting difference..
No one can ever know on which of the full moon day of Ramadhan the Quran was revealed first ever.. Even Prophet Mohamed would not have known which full moon Night it was revealed precisely by looking at the full moon.. Since Full Moon are three nights.. But mohamed knows it was revealed on a full moon night in Ramad but most probably not known was it 13th or 14th or 15th... So God has made it easy for all those who siyam in all three full moon days since one of those was in fact the Night in which Quran was revealed..
Even the grammar suits as it says "whoever witnesses THE Shahr (the full moon/3) fast IT.. It means fast complete full moons.. If God had mentioned "who ever witnesses A full moon (merely Shahr without AL /The) fast IT" ..then definitely would mean just fast one of the full moons.. It means only one day.. How perfect God has used the wording..As accepted conventionally if Ramadhan is a month then in verse 2185 should begin AL Shahr (The month Ramadhan).. Coz precise month... It is manifestly erroneous to word it like " A month(of) Ramadhan in which the Quran was revealed..... "
If Ramadhan was month meant by Allah then in both the places of verses 2185 AL should have been placed before Shahr as AL Shahr..
One would say.. What is wrong saying month of April or month of September.. Why need to add The month of April... Well.. Logic is right but not in all context.. Here verse itself starts with A month (of) Ramadhan... That's weird.. Surely weird.. Every translator forced to add The month of Ramadan so that it makes sense but God has not placed The month..
Reflect well fellow believers.. By the way I hope I answered those who asked privately.Thank you...
