30:3 lowest point on earth?
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Salam jkhan.
It seems you are taking the traditional reading of 303 which is what is causing this understanding.
Traditional Rome fought and lost, then they fought and won.
Non-Traditional Rome fought and won, then they fought and lost.
If you take the 1st understanding, then the Dead Sea area does not fit with the concept of the Roman/Persian war.
If you take the 2nd, then it all fits together as it is a Roman/Muslim war.
Saying "adna" is "nearest" simply ads no value to the statement as all wars are fought near or far. Also, "adna" has been used in the Quran for lowest (see 261) - which is consistent to this context.
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Salam jkhan.
It seems you are taking the traditional reading of 303 which is what is causing this understanding.
Traditional Rome fought and lost, then they fought and won.
Non-Traditional Rome fought and won, then they fought and lost.
If you take the 1st understanding, then the Dead Sea area does not fit with the concept of the Roman/Persian war.
If you take the 2nd, then it all fits together as it is a Roman/Muslim war.
Saying "adna" is "nearest" simply ads no value to the statement as all wars are fought near or far. Also, "adna" has been used in the Quran for lowest (see 261) - which is consistent to this context.
Peace brother Layth
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Thank you for your response.. .. That's why I said such differences of understanding is no harm.. It can happen while learning quran.. Truth may not be that though .. I don't take traditional understanding but best way thru quran..
Note below verse for lowest.. ( sīn fā lām) this word suit best for lowest within Quran.. Read all sīn fā lām for clarification... Reference you cited 261 doesn't give the "Lowest" but it can mean inferior or the opposite to good(khair)4145 "Indeed, the hypocrites will be in the lowest depths of the Fire - and never will you find for them a helper"
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Saying "adna" is "nearest" simply ads no value to the statement as all wars are fought near or far. Also, "adna" has been used in the Quran for lowest (see 261) - which is consistent to this context.
Both are different. In 261 it is comparative while here it is superlative.
قَالَ أَتَسْتَبْدِلُونَ ٱلَّذِى هُوَ أَدْنَـىٰ بِٱلَّذِى هُوَ خَيْـرٌۚ
He (Mūsā alahissalam) said; "Are you people seeking replacement which is inferior in place of that which is better one?
انہوں (موسیٰ علیہ السلام)نے کہا”کیا تم اُس طعام کو جوزیادہ بہتر ہے اُس شئے سے بدلنا چاہتے ہو جونسبتاً ادنیٰ ہے؟
فِـىٓ أَدْنَـى ٱلۡأَرْضِ
This defeat has taken place within the lowest place of the Earth —
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Salam brother.
We are not in disagreement on the variations in meanings of words (like "ayah" can mean "sign" or "verse" - depending on context).
If you take Rome/Persia version, then "adna" fits better as "near" - if you take the Rome/Muslim version, then "adna" fits better as "lowest".
That is why I was asking which reading you are looking at.
Rome/Muslim battles have been documented. First battle occurring at Mutah in 629AD (present day Jordan - near the Dead Sea), second battle occurred at Yarmouk in 636AD(present day Syria/Israel). First battle was a victory for Rome, second was a defeat. Battles occurred within 7-years of each other, which is in-line with the word "bid3 sineen" (a few years "3-10 max".
Roman/Persian battles are a mess lasting 721 years and taking place all over the Middle East.
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Salam brother.
We are not in disagreement on the variations in meanings of words (like "ayah" can mean "sign" or "verse" - depending on context).
If you take Rome/Persia version, then "adna" fits better as "near" - if you take the Rome/Muslim version, then "adna" fits better as "lowest".
That is why I was asking which reading you are looking at.
Rome/Muslim battles have been documented. First battle occurring at Mutah in 629AD (present day Jordan - near the Dead Sea), second battle occurred at Yarmouk in 636AD(present day Syria/Israel). First battle was a victory for Rome, second was a defeat. Battles occurred within 7-years of each other, which is in-line with the word "bid3 sineen" (a few years "3-10 max".
Roman/Persian battles are a mess lasting 721 years and taking place all over the Middle East.
I get you.. But for the argument sake let me explain
842 "when you were on the near side of the valley, and they were on the farther side, and the caravan was lower than you. If you had made an appointment , you would have missed the appointment. But so that Allah might accomplish a matter already destined - that those who perished would perish upon evidence and those who lived would live upon evidence; and indeed, Allah is Hearing and Knowing"
I am not here alter your opinions... But your opinions of meaning didn't convince me.. The above verse may give you a better picture.. God used three type length... Near, far and lower... Used three different words... Dunya, Quswa and Asfala respectively to mean Nearer, farther and lower... So... 303 in my understanding has to be close-by land...
@ brother Mazhar..
Okay let it be superlative but why lowest instead of nearest .. -
Salam jkhan.
Saying "adna" is "nearest" simply ads no value to the statement as all wars are fought near or far. Also, "adna" has been used in the Quran for lowest (see 261) - which is consistent to this context.
You can't say probably no value in the statement if doesn't mean lowest... It can still mean with close-by land.. That gives clear picture where Mohamed lived.. If people claim Mohamed lived in Makka then as you say it is documented(lets take it true) so mutha in Jordan near dead Sea is not nearer.. That's far away from Makka... So they fought in a place nearer to their dwelling place... So Makka cannot be the place where Mohamed lived.. ... We can't say the verse doesn't give meaning... It gave meaning to the yester year people and it gives meaning for us as well.. If taken as lowest.. Most probably it would not give any meaning to the ancient folks.. What lowest? That could be there question.. Coz it was not a prophecy but god talking about an incident which happend during their life time and the prophecy is the second one the defeat...
Adna is the word God used whether it gives value or not we will know..
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brother Mazhar..
Okay let it be superlative but why lowest instead of nearest ..Just google to locate the lowest area of the Earth. http//haqeeqat.pk/roots/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/001.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20Surat%20002/2.061/1.%20Dunya%20Daal%20Noon%20Waw/5.gif does not mean "near". When two things are compared it means one thing inferior or lower than the other mentioned; when superlative it means "the lowest" of its second entity of possessive phrase. In Arabic words for the concept of "near" and "far-distant" are different.
إِذْ أَنتُـم بِالْعُدْوَةِ ٱلدُّنْيَا وَهُـم بِٱلْعُدْوَةِ ٱلْقُصْوَىٰ وَٱلرَّكْبُ أَسْفَلَ مِنكُـمْۚ
That day you people were on the lower level corner and they, the approaching army of infidels of Mecca. were on the farther higher altitude corner, while the Merchant Caravan was relatively at a lower level ground than you people.
This gives the picture of the battlefield and positioning of three parties. This location and positioning caused optical illusion for the incoming enemy army about the strength of Believers.
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Just google to locate the lowest area of the Earth. http//haqeeqat.pk/roots/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/001.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20Surat%20002/2.061/1.%20Dunya%20Daal%20Noon%20Waw/5.gif does not mean "near". When two things are compared it means one thing inferior or lower than the other mentioned; when superlative it means "the lowest" of its second entity of possessive phrase. In Arabic words for the concept of "near" and "far-distant" are different.
إِذْ أَنتُـم بِالْعُدْوَةِ ٱلدُّنْيَا وَهُـم بِٱلْعُدْوَةِ ٱلْقُصْوَىٰ وَٱلرَّكْبُ أَسْفَلَ مِنكُـمْۚ
That day you people were on the lower level corner and they, the approaching army of infidels of Mecca. were on the farther higher altitude corner, while the Merchant Caravan was relatively at a lower level ground than you people.
This gives the picture of the battlefield and positioning of three parties. This location and positioning caused optical illusion for the incoming enemy army about the strength of Believers.
Salam Mazhar...
No way near to the real words of Quran your translations... What makes you to exaggerate by words... That you only know why you do that... Just speak what is written in the verse... That's worthy... Isn't it brother?
Pls you or anyone just read all the verses of Adna or Quswa or Asfala in entire Quran... Then you yourself decide what's the best suited meaning here in 303 ... Thank you..
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Salam Mazhar...
No way near to the real words of Quran your translations... What makes you to exaggerate by words... That you only know why you do that... Just speak what is written in the verse... That's worthy... Isn't it brother?
Pls you or anyone just read all the verses of Adna or Quswa or Asfala in entire Quran... Then you yourself decide what's the best suited meaning here in 303 ... Thank you..
This Prepositional Phrase coupled with Possessive Phrase is solitary occurrence in Qur'an فِـىٓ أَدْنَـى ٱلۡأَرْضِ.
Exaggeration and avoiding translation loss are two different things. Please remember Arabic is not translatable by following old theory of "word by word" and sense by sense translation.
Translating Grand Qur’ān in the 21st century
Self translation and comprehension of Grand Qur’ān through Triplet Theory of Translationhttp//haqeeqat.pk/TranslationOfQuran.htm
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This Prepositional Phrase coupled with Possessive Phrase is solitary occurrence in Qur'an فِـىٓ أَدْنَـى ٱلۡأَرْضِ.
Exaggeration and avoiding translation loss are two different things. Please remember Arabic is not translatable by following old theory of "word by word" and sense by sense translation.
Translating Grand Qur’ān in the 21st century
Self translation and comprehension of Grand Qur’ān through Triplet Theory of Translationhttp//haqeeqat.pk/TranslationOfQuran.htm
Peace..
I do absolutely agree that we cannot translate with every word as it is.. Coz understanding is the translation... But biasing with manipulation or additional words which has no value is beyond translation...
Just look at your translation brother.. Why do you add Macca or approaching army infidels or higher etc.. These are too much... It's not translation.. It is your own quran... I wonder what you expect by exaggeration of words.. Do you think you can give better picture than God?
I wonder what's wrong with some believers...Pls remember there are millions of people who only depend on translated version of Quran so adding words which is not there is such a blasphemy... If one read your translations then they would think Macca is in fact in Arabic Quran
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Peace..
I do absolutely agree that we cannot translate with every word as it is.. Coz understanding is the translation... But biasing with manipulation or additional words which has no value is beyond translation...
Just look at your translation brother.. Why do you add Macca or approaching army infidels or higher etc.. These are too much... It's not translation.. It is your own quran... I wonder what you expect by exaggeration of words.. Do you think you can give better picture than God?
I wonder what's wrong with some believers...Pls remember there are millions of people who only depend on translated version of Quran so adding words which is not there is such a blasphemy... If one read your translations then they would think Macca is in fact in Arabic Quran
The methodology for translation indicated in Qur'an itself is that firstly segment the text into Frame (فَصَلْتُ الشَّيءَ فَصْلاً).
http//haqeeqat.pk/TranslationTripletTheory.htm
The Frame is 841-44.
You also are not noticing that Ayah 842 is a dependent clause for which reason understanding it you need to keep in mind the main clause.
Further you are not realizing the importance of what is called "anaphora resolution". I do it in the translation, otherwise the translation loss will render the sentence ambiguous for the reader. 'they" needs to be mentioned as to who were they.
Pl just skim it
841-44decisive Battle of Badar
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If it is lowest point of earth then was this verse meant to be understood only by the later generation when humans discovered that dead sea is the lowest point of earth?
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If it is lowest point of earth then was this verse meant to be understood only by the later generation when humans discovered that dead sea is the lowest point of earth?
It was understood all the time. Sentence is informative. Anytime one can try verifying an information.
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The methodology for translation indicated in Qur'an itself is that firstly segment the text into Frame (فَصَلْتُ الشَّيءَ فَصْلاً).
http//haqeeqat.pk/TranslationTripletTheory.htm
The Frame is 841-44.
You also are not noticing that Ayah 842 is a dependent clause for which reason understanding it you need to keep in mind the main clause.
Further you are not realizing the importance of what is called "anaphora resolution". I do it in the translation, otherwise the translation loss will render the sentence ambiguous for the reader. 'they" needs to be mentioned as to who were they.
Pl just skim it
841-44decisive Battle of Badar
Peace...
I don't want to further continue reiterating the same... I do very well aware anaphora resolution... Brother if it is translation let it be translation ..if you want make interpretation then let it be interpretation.... Then it is your view.. Let it be ambiguous... Is that an issue for you? So you clarify in translation itself what's ambiguous by inserting your personal opinion... So your personal opinion of the verse adapting with additional words becomes true and so that it is not ambiguous... Brothers that's worse than hadith... Just translate it... People grasp or not grasp is not your duty... For that God is around... For that the one who reach Quran will explore..
Honestly disgusting what you doing... And still you are not getting.. Do you know how I struggled with such biased translation and foot note... Just be aware that God doesn't like speaking the lies... What if your AR is wrong assumption? Then who will be responsive misguiding... Just translate dude.. That's more than truth... How strong the advice of God to Mohamed if he include anything into Quran .. So my humble advice.. I know you won't take it as positive... But true believers know that addition and deletion of real words from QURAN is not acceptable... Then it cannot be Quran...Anticipate one day you will understand that you cannot play around with words of God... That's my wish.. Specially while translating.. Not while giving interpretation or personal understanding of Quran... If one not understand fir example one word and translated according to how he understood is no harm.. Coz that's his comprehension at that time...
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Peace...
I don't want to further continue reiterating the same... I do very well aware anaphora resolution... Brother if it is translation let it be translation ..if you want make interpretation then let it be interpretation.... Then it is your view.. Let it be ambiguous... Is that an issue for you? So you clarify in translation itself what's ambiguous by inserting your personal opinion... So your personal opinion of the verse adapting with additional words becomes true and so that it is not ambiguous... Brothers that's worse than hadith... Just translate it... People grasp or not grasp is not your duty... For that God is around... For that the one who reach Quran will explore..
Honestly disgusting what you doing... And still you are not getting.. Do you know how I struggled with such biased translation and foot note... Just be aware that God doesn't like speaking the lies... What if your AR is wrong assumption? Then who will be responsive misguiding... Just translate dude.. That's more than truth... How strong the advice of God to Mohamed if he include anything into Quran .. So my humble advice.. I know you won't take it as positive... But true believers know that addition and deletion of real words from QURAN is not acceptable... Then it cannot be Quran...Anticipate one day you will understand that you cannot play around with words of God... That's my wish.. Specially while translating.. Not while giving interpretation or personal understanding of Quran... If one not understand fir example one word and translated according to how he understood is no harm.. Coz that's his comprehension at that time...
Just define what you mean by translation? Do you mean translating source text words in sequence?
Just translate it, I will get what you intend to say
http//haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/008.%20Al%20Anfaal/8.42.gif -
Just define what you mean by translation? Do you mean translating source text words in sequence?
Just translate it, I will get what you intend to say
http//haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/008.%20Al%20Anfaal/8.42.gifPeace...
It is better if we don’t spoil the cream and the essence of topic which is 30.03 by not deviating to another topic… but simply saying… normally we take the translation in writing (for example translation of quran to another language … so that takes time and understanding of the Arabic thoroughly replace the words with very meaning with a meaningful structure of a sentence though it doesn’t give a meaning in understanding, but just replace what is written in arabic)… but when it comes to interpretation it can be instant and the choices of words to match whatever comes in line and even addition and deletion to interpret it… it is not normally in writing but we do thus while hearing… it is not required to be so genuine but let the audience or reader for that matter get what the original message is in a nutshell..that’s interpretation.. but translation should be precise in writing without deviating the genuine message..(for example will/testament written by father to his kids, if translated, then it should be as it is… but if interpreted casually by lawyer we can say “ He has given most of his properties to his elder daughter”.. but translation should be each and everything without missing anything(no addition no deletion)..
It is not my aim to give my understanding and meaning of translation and interpretation… but quran is unique.. let that be as it is.. for example if God used only one word use the similar or more identical word in the translation language (no harm.. don’t be like the conventional translators ..example “A L M, these letter are miracles of Allah and non knows but Him” that’s exaggeration.. why do I need his opinion.. did allah miss to add that part?).. but don’t exaggerate with words… that s not translation… that’s the weakness of the translator.. it is good for an oral interpreter to exaggerate to get some pleasure in his work.. but be careful… that’s all I have to say..sometimes what you take so simple may be mighty in the eyes of God. All those who exaggerated only got carried away with the book of God and concocted stories in such a magnitude to raise hadiths… coz they never sufficed with mere words of God… they needed more … -
A discourse is not a dictionary that one can translate the meanings of each word accordingly. Meanings embedded in a sentence are much more than the collective meanings of the individual words. One needs to translate the sentence of the source text and not merely the original individual words.
الٓـمٓ .3001١
ا Alif First Letter; not consonant, of Arabic alphabet ( أبجدية عربية) it has no speech sound and is not conjoined with the succeeding consonants of a word or with the following word. Laa'm and Mee'm Two consonants of Arabic alphabet conjoined/stitched together and both have above them an ancillary glyph-prolongation sign-mark called "Madda" which means and extends-stretches the sound value of the letter to which it is added.
غُلِبَتِ ٱلرُّومُ .3002٢
Rome has been defeated —
فِـىٓ أَدْنَـى ٱلۡأَرْضِ
This defeat has taken place within the lowest place of the Earth —
وَهُـم مِّنۢ بَعْدِ غَلَبِـهِـمْ سَيَغْلِبُونَ .3003٣
And know it; they (Romans) will soon be attaining victory after their defeat —
فِـى بِضْعِ سِنِيـنَۗ
It will happen in time-frame of few years.
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A discourse is not a dictionary that one can translate the meanings of each word accordingly. Meanings embedded in a sentence are much more than the collective meanings of the individual words. One needs to translate the sentence of the source text and not merely the original individual words.
Peace..
Yes,.. we all know that exactly..
Languages are different in style and in grammar.... so translator should adapt according to the language... IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT HE SHOULD ADD or DELETE WORDS...
That's not translation...that's verbose... You can be verbose in explanation coz that's understanding.. but not in translation...for example ,,. why we debate here in this forum keeping the quran as source..is it not manifest to us the way it is written? After all it is written in a language, so what is wrong, why we debate? The reason we debate is we need further exploration and understanding coz it's not talking about a simple matter.. such as "how to make brownies"... so while we explore this incredible quran gives lots of its concealed aspects...
So dear brother, you don't need to expose everything in your translation coz that's not worthy...people will grasp with the help of its author what the meaning of every verse...You added for example, Macca in a verse where Macca is not part of the verse...let people decide while exploring whether approaching infidels of Makka befit for the verse or not...
Do you think everyone will agree with you that Makka should be there.. or even you don't insert Makka in that verse, do you think everyone is of the opinion that Makka is the place where it took place... tbh.. that doesn't satisfy me and probably it won't satisfy many..So why did you include.what God didn't include.... did God forget..
For such just debate.. no need your personal translation on them.. -
Peace..
Yes,.. we all know that exactly..
Languages are different in style and in grammar.... so translator should adapt according to the language... IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT HE SHOULD ADD or DELETE WORDS...
That's not translation...that's verbose... You can be verbose in explanation coz that's understanding.. but not in translation...for example ,,. why we debate here in this forum keeping the quran as source..is it not manifest to us the way it is written? After all it is written in a language, so what is wrong, why we debate? The reason we debate is we need further exploration and understanding coz it's not talking about a simple matter.. such as "how to make brownies"... so while we explore this incredible quran gives lots of its concealed aspects...
So dear brother, you don't need to expose everything in your translation coz that's not worthy...people will grasp with the help of its author what the meaning of every verse...You added for example, Macca in a verse where Macca is not part of the verse...let people decide while exploring whether approaching infidels of Makka befit for the verse or not...
Do you think everyone will agree with you that Makka should be there.. or even you don't insert Makka in that verse, do you think everyone is of the opinion that Makka is the place where it took place... tbh.. that doesn't satisfy me and probably it won't satisfy many..So why did you include.what God didn't include.... did God forget..
For such just debate.. no need your personal translation on them..Words and phrases constitute a text. They are grammatical units of a sentence. How they are linked and what function they are performing has meanings over and above the meaning of individual words.
إِذْ أَنتُـم بِالْعُدْوَةِ ٱلدُّنْيَا وَهُـم بِٱلْعُدْوَةِ ٱلْقُصْوَىٰ وَٱلرَّكْبُ أَسْفَلَ مِنكُـمْۚ
If you translate merely these words in English, that will convey no sense. This is not only a dependent clause comprising of three sentences but also all three are elliptical. This must not be translated as independent sentence otherwise it will distort the original text.
This clause is linked to this part of earlier conditional sentence يَوْمَ ٱلْفُرْقَانِ يَوْمَ ٱلْتَقَى ٱلْجَمْعَانِۗ
The addressees are second persons present who actually experienced the situation. It is episode, an account of real life event. Thereby to make the reader of English translation visualize the event context and ellipses apparent in structuring the sentences need to be incorporated. Needless to mention that grammar, syntax ans rhetoric devices put additional meanings in the sentence.For the present day reader, who were not the characters of event, the pronouns also need to be resolved.
إِذْ أَنتُـم بِالْعُدْوَةِ ٱلدُّنْيَا وَهُـم بِٱلْعُدْوَةِ ٱلْقُصْوَىٰ وَٱلرَّكْبُ أَسْفَلَ مِنكُـمْۚ
That day you people were positioned on the lower level corner and they (the approaching army of infidels of Mecca) were positioned on the farther higher altitude corner, while the Merchant Caravan was camping relatively at a lower level ground than you people.
http//haqeeqat.pk/Quran.Corpus-3Sura7-9.htm
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Peace..
Yes,.. we all know that exactly..
Languages are different in style and in grammar.... so translator should adapt according to the language... IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT HE SHOULD ADD or DELETE WORDS...
That's not translation...that's verbose... You can be verbose in explanation coz that's understanding.. but not in translation...for example ,,. why we debate here in this forum keeping the quran as source..is it not manifest to us the way it is written? After all it is written in a language, so what is wrong, why we debate? The reason we debate is we need further exploration and understanding coz it's not talking about a simple matter.. such as "how to make brownies"... so while we explore this incredible quran gives lots of its concealed aspects...
So dear brother, you don't need to expose everything in your translation coz that's not worthy...people will grasp with the help of its author what the meaning of every verse...You added for example, Macca in a verse where Macca is not part of the verse...let people decide while exploring whether approaching infidels of Makka befit for the verse or not...
Do you think everyone will agree with you that Makka should be there.. or even you don't insert Makka in that verse, do you think everyone is of the opinion that Makka is the place where it took place... tbh.. that doesn't satisfy me and probably it won't satisfy many..So why did you include.what God didn't include.... did God forget..
For such just debate.. no need your personal translation on them..The most important factors for the translation of Qur'an you are overlooking. One of them told in Qur'an is
تَدَبُّرٌ Critical thinking Follow an inquiry based process use prior and background information
http//haqeeqat.pk/FacilitatorTadabbarCriticalThinking.htmSecond is
Qur’ān is rendered facilitative for comprehension by use of figures of speechBy unique device تَصْرِيفٌ like coverage of an event by multiple cameras
http//haqeeqat.pk/FacilitatibeByTasreef.htm
