The Ultimate Qs: Do we have a free will or not?
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Peace Lotetree,
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=27878&highlight=#27878
Brother Ayman explained it (better than i can)
Firstly, you are confusing "free-will" and "free-choice". No human has "free-will". You cannot simply freely will something and it happens. For example, you can't will to be the richest man in the world and... boom it happens. So "free-will" is not achievable in this low-life. What we have is free choice. Everyday we are faced with choices. We can choose amongst a limited number of alternatives.
Hence, what we are really discussing is "free choice" amongst a limited number of alternatives.
Nadia
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Salaamun alaikum all,
So the question is not about The God's knowledge, which is absolute. The paradox occurs as a result of our own ignorance. This is why the human is described as ignorant for accepting the trust. Fulfilling the trust is about overcoming our ignorance of the future through trust in The God.
I think brother Ayman's response contains the answer. Allah is All Knowing, Just, and Merciful. We cannot blame him for creating humans knowing some of them will end up in Hell. We can only blame Him if He had not provided us with the knowledge essential to making the right choices. We can only blame our ignorance or the lack of trust in Allah.
OUR FIRST BLUNDER
First of all we were not even supposed to be on Earth. We were created to serve Allah and we were supposed to remain in Heaven. Then out of our choice to remain ignorant and not trust Allah we committed a grave sin.
After our creation we were living in Heaven peacefully IN OUR FIRST LIFE and our Lord used to communicate with us. The only thing forbidden was to "eat from the tree" and Allah gave us fair warning
7173 And your Lord took for the children of Adam from their backs, their progeny; and He made them witness over themselves "Am I not your Lord?" They said "Yes, we bear witness." Thus you cannot say on the Day of Resurrection that you were unaware of this.
5666 You have come to know about the first creation. If only you would remember.
235 And We said "O Adam, reside you and your mate in the paradise, and eat from it bountifully as you both wish, and do not approach this tree, else you will be of those who did wrong."Everything was fine until Iblis deceived us and we disobeyed Allah and ate from the tree with our own free choice. As soon as we did that it caused irreversible changes in us. Before that our soul was visible to us but our physical body/ego/sin was hidden from us. After eating from the tree our body/ego became visible and our soul became invisible, like on Earth here and we became mortal and our physical desires like hunger, sleep, excretion etc. manifested. We thereafter realized our folly and repented and Allah forgave us but because we had caused irreversible changes in ourselves we suffered its consequences and died ! We were then reborn on Earth and are here because of OUR CHOICE and not because we were FORCED. We did it to ourselves.
OUR SECOND BLUNDER
Allah gave us a second chance out of His Mercy and sent us to Earth. Even then He offered us to accept the trust or not. Out of our choosing to remain ignorant we chose to accept the trust. I am pretty sure Allah must have given us knowledge at that time and informed us of the consequences of accepting the trust including ending up in Hell. We continued to be stubborn and ignorant and accepted the trust.
3372 We displayed/presented the trust on the skies/space and the earth, and the mountains, so they refused that they bear it, and they were cautious/afraid from it, and the human bore it, that he truly was unjust/oppressive, ignorant
The following is the covenant that resulted from this trust
3660-61 Did I not make a covenant to you, Adam's descendants, that you do not serve the devil, he truly is for you a clear/evident enemy, and that you serve Me, that is a straight path?
THIRD BLUNDER OF SOME (MOST) OF US
Then after that He continued to give us the knowledge required to make the right choices. Now if anyone continues to choose to remain ignorant and/or not trust Allah and keep serving the devil and end up in Hell then it is not Allah's fault. He is Merciful and Just. Only we are to blame if we end up in Hell. Those of us who will make the same mistake of being deceived by Iblis/ego again and rejecting the truth will have to suffer the consequences and that will be OUR CHOICE.
Just because Allah knows what is going to happen in the future and that some of us will end up in Hell DOES NOT MEAN HE FORCED IT UPON US
479 Any good that befalls you is from God, and any bad that befalls you is from yourself.
Following are the signs detailing this story
719 "And Adam, reside with your mate in the paradise, and eat from wherever you please; but do not approach this tree or you will be of the wicked."
720 But the devil whispered to them, to reveal their sin which was kept from them; and he said "Your Lord did not forbid you from this tree except that you would become Angels, or you would be immortal."
721 And he swore to them "I am giving good advice."
722 So he misled them with deception; and when they tasted the tree, their sin became apparent to them, and they rushed to cover themselves with the leaves of the paradise; and their Lord called to them "Did I not forbid you from that tree, and tell you that the devil is your clear enemy?"
723 They said "Our Lord, we have wronged ourselves and if You do not forgive us and have mercy on us, then we will be of the losers!"
724 He said "Descend; for you are enemies to one another; and on Earth you will have residence and provisions until the appointed time."
725 He said "In it you will live and in it you will die, and from it you will be brought forth."20113 And We had made a pledge to Adam from before, but he forgot, and We did not find in him the will power.
20114 And We said to the Angels "Submit to Adam." They all submitted except for Satan, he refused.
20115 So We said "O Adam, this is an enemy to you and your mate. So do not let him take you out from the paradise, else you will have hardship."
20116 "You will have in it that you will not go hungry nor need clothes."
20117 "And you will have in it that you will not go thirsty nor suffer from heat."
20118 But the devil whispered to him, he said "O Adam, shall I lead you to the tree of immortality and a kingdom which will not waste away?"
20119 So they both ate from it, and their sin became apparent for them, and they began to place leaves on themselves from the paradise. Adam had disobeyed his Lord, and had gone astray.
20120 Then his Lord recalled him, and He forgave him and gave guidance to him.
20121 He said "Descend from this, all of you, for you are enemies to one another. So, when My guidance comes to you;"
20122 "Then, whoever follows My guidance, he will not go astray nor suffer."
20123 "And whoever turns away from My remembrance, then he will have a miserable life, and We will raise him blind on the Day of Resurrection."1425 And the devil said when the matter was complete "God had promised you the promise of truth, and I promised you and broke my promise. And I had no power over you except that I invited you and you responded to me. So do not blame me, but blame yourselves; I cannot help you nor can you help me. I reject that you have set me as a partner before this; the wicked will have a painful retribution."
4011 They will Say "Our Lord, You have made us die twice, and You have given us life twice. Now we have confessed our sins. Is there any way out of this path?"
IS THIS A CONTRADICTION?????
I only have one question. Can anyone explain the apparent contradiction between the following 2 sets of ayat?
SO THAT ALLAH WOULD KNOW (implying that He does not know??)
The following ayat seem to imply that Allah does not know exactly what we will choose to do
3143 Or did you think that you would enter Paradise without God knowing those who would strive amongst you and knowing those who are patient?
917 Or did you think that you would be left alone? God will come to know those of you who strived and did not take other than God and His messenger and the believers as helpers. God is Expert in what you do.
293 While We had tested those before them, so that God would know those who are truthful and so that He would know the liars.GOD IS ALL KNOWING
but then there is an apparent contradiction with the following ayat which clearly say that Allah knows our present and future
2255 He knows their present and their future, and they do not have any of His knowledge except for what He wishes.
20108 He knows their present and their future, and they do not have any of His knowledge.
2129 He knows their present and their future, and they cannot intercede unless it is for those whom He is pleased with. And they stand in awe and reverence of Him.
2275 He knows their present and their future. And to God all matters are returned.One actual example of Him knowing the future is
1112 Condemned is the hand of Abu-Lahab; condemned indeed.
1113 His money will not avail him, nor what he has earned.
1114 He will be sent to a flaming Fire.
1115 And his wife who carries the logs.
1116 On her neck will be a rope of thorns.Any comments will be highly appreciated. Ayman? Wakas? Nadia? Marie? Zenje? The Nabi? Layth? Edip? Hafeez? Idolfree? Lote Tree? idmkhizer? ANYONE????????
Peace,
Tanveer
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Peace all,
One actual example of Him knowing the future is
1112 Condemned is the hand of Abu-Lahab; condemned indeed.
1113 His money will not avail him, nor what he has earned.
1114 He will be sent to a flaming Fire.
1115 And his wife who carries the logs.
1116 On her neck will be a rope of thorns.Any comments will be highly appreciated. Ayman? Wakas? Nadia? Marie? Zenje? The Nabi? Layth? Edip? Hafeez? Idolfree? Lote Tree? idmkhizer? ANYONE????????
Who was the condemned Abu Lahab and his wife who carried the logs? Can anyone explain? Obviously, the above ayahs are essential to reflect upon what Abu Lahab and his wife did or did not do, to better understand the condemnation that they so deserved, don't you think? So what example do they set out without knowing their historical backgrounds? Perhaps "Muhammad" knew who Abu Lahab and his wife were all along, hence the above verses? What say you guys?
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Peace tanveermd,
I think brother Ayman's response contains the answer. Allah is All Knowing, Just, and Merciful. We cannot blame him for creating humans knowing some of them will end up in Hell. We can only blame Him if He had not provided us with the knowledge essential to making the right choices. We can only blame our ignorance or the lack of trust in Allah.
Indeed...i agree to some degree here...our own choices cause us to go down the wrong path yet some still want the chance of frolicking and cavorting in the heavenly pastures even though they may have constantly chosen wrong...that is whats unfair imo.
SO THAT ALLAH WOULD KNOW (implying that He does not know??)
Allah is the knower of everything as in the scripture...his knowledge is absolute...there is nothing He does not know...
Some alternative translations
003.142
YUSUFALI Did ye think that ye would enter Heaven without Allah testing those of you who fought hard (In His Cause) and remained steadfast?KHALIFA Do you expect to enter Paradise without GOD distinguishing those among you who strive, and without distinguishing those who are steadfast?
009.016
YUSUFALI Or think ye that ye shall be abandoned, as though Allah did not know those among you who strive with might and main, and take none for friends and protectors except Allah, His Messenger, and the (community of) Believers? But Allah is well-acquainted with (all) that ye doKHALIFA Did you think that you will be left alone without GOD distinguishing those among you who strive, and never ally themselves with GOD's enemies, or the enemies of His messenger, or the enemies of the believers? GOD is fully Cognizant of everything you do.
029.003
PICKTHAL Lo! We tested those who were before you. Thus Allah knoweth those who are sincere, and knoweth those who feign.KHALIFA We have tested those before them, for GOD must distinguish those who are truthful, and He must expose the liars
According to the fact that God is the knower of everything (that does include the future cuz thats part of everything), the explanation that goes along with this fact is that men are being tested for our benefit NOT for God's...so that the record is all clear and fair...see God is distinguishing us by testing us for us...not that God is distinguishing us because He doesn't know...as that is a contradiction to God's knowing all. I think if we substitute distinguish in most of these verses it makes more sense than God must know (as if He doesn't know something)...as that is a glaring contradiction.
I don't understand how its comforting that THE God is NOT all knowing...
Nadia
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From the great reading we know that The God guides us (in the present) to which branch to choose or He doesn't guide us (in the present) to which branch to choose. The God's decision to guide or not guide is not predestined. So the question is what causes us to make a correct choice. Think about it, what would allow you to always make the correct choice?
Agree with brother Ayman here, and the rest of his excellent comment.
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Peace Lotetree,
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=27878&highlight=#27878
Brother Ayman explained it (better than i can)
Firstly, you are confusing "free-will" and "free-choice". No human has "free-will". You cannot simply freely will something and it happens. For example, you can't will to be the richest man in the world and... boom it happens. So "free-will" is not achievable in this low-life. What we have is free choice. Everyday we are faced with choices. We can choose amongst a limited number of alternatives.
Hence, what we are really discussing is "free choice" amongst a limited number of alternatives.
Nadia
Hello Nadia,
This is the definition from a internet dictionary
Free will - in contrast with determinism, the doctrine of free will asserts that man is able to make choices according to his own will.
This is what have been debated by human beings for centuries. And this is what I understand to be the meaning of Free Will. Therefore Ayman's "Free Choice" is perhaps a meaningless diversion from the doctrine of Free Will. Without Free Will we can't make choices even if there are choices available to us.
(I searched for keywords FREE CHOICE on google, nothing turned up relating this to Free Will, perhaps you can find something on this...)
Regards,
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Salaamun alaikum Nadia,
Thank you for bringing the correct meaning of the ayat to our attention. I did some research which shows that the correct translation of ALM in those ayat should be "distinguish" and not "know"
In 3143 and 917 the word Ya'lamu is used which according to Dictionary of the Holy Quran by Abdul Mannan Omar means "He knows". In 293 the word Ya'lamanna is used which according to the same dictionary means "He will surely know". However in the dictionary it also says that the word "'Ilm" is not followed by "min" except when it is used in the sense of distinguishing one thing from the other as in 2143
2143
2143 And as such, We have made you a balanced nation so that you may be witness over the people, and that the messenger may be witness over you. And We did not make the focal point that you became on except to distinguish who follows the messenger from those who will turn on their heels. It was a great thing indeed except for those whom God had guided; God was not to waste your belief. God is Merciful and Compassionate over the people.
Therefore the correct translation of Ya'lamu in 3143 and 917 should be "He distinguishes" because Ya'lamu is followed by "min" in both. In 293 Ya'lamanna is not followed by "min" but preceded by it which perhaps according to arabic grammar should still be translated as "He will distinguish" and that meaning would fit perfectly and there would be no contradiction with 2255, 20108, 2129, and 2275.
3143
3143 Or did you think that you would enter Paradise without God distinguishing those who would strive amongst you and distinguishing those who are patient?Out of the following various translations only Sher Ali and Khalifa translate this ayat properly
Verse Translations
003142
Pickthall Or deemed ye that ye would enter paradise while yet Allah knoweth not those of you who really strive, nor knoweth those (of you) who are steadfast?
Yusuf Ali Did ye think that ye would enter Heaven without God testing those of you who fought hard (in His Cause) and remained steadfast?
Shakir Do you think that you will enter the garden while Allah has not yet known those who strive hard from among you, and (He has not) known the patient.
Sher Ali Do you suppose that you will enter Heaven while ALLAH has not yet caused to be distinguished those of you that strive in the way of ALLAH and has not yet caused to be distinguished the steadfast.
Khalifa Do you expect to enter Paradise without GOD distinguishing those among you who strive, and without distinguishing those who are steadfast?
Arberry Or did you suppose you should enter Paradise without God know who of you have struggled and who are patient?
Palmer Do ye think that ye can enter Paradise and God not know those of you who have fought well, or know the patient?
Rodwell Thought ye that ye should enter Paradise ere God had taken knowledge of those among you who did valiantly, and of those who steadfastly endure?
Sale Did ye imagine that ye should enter paradise , when as yet God knew not those among you who fought strenuously ; nor knew those who persevered with patience?917
917 Or did you think that you would be left alone? God will distinguish those of you who strived and did not take other than God and His messenger and the believers as helpers. God is Expert in what you do.Out of the above translators only Khalifa translates this ayat correctly !
293
293 While We had tested those before them, so that God would distinguish those who are truthful and so that He would distinguish the liars.Out of the above translators only Khalifa translates this ayat correctly too !
The people who are responsible for the pm translation of Al-Qur'an should correct the translation of the above ayat otherwise it causes a glaring contradiction.
Peace,
Tanveer
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Peace All,
I think the paradox is only present when we approach this topic in the frame of time. We must remember that God is not bound by our temporary boundaries.
A proper analogy to understanding this apparent paradox, in my opinion, would not be one that is perfectly linear, but one that is dynamically static, if that is comprehendible.
When I was younger, I used to read these books called "choose your own path" adventures. It went something like this
You read up to page 16, and on that page you'd be asked to make a choice. For instance, "the mysterious stranger has invited you in for dinner. If you accept, read the next page, if you decline, go to page 33".And so on and so forth, until you either die prematurely or get captured or beat the book.
The way I see it, we are all stuck in this book, with seemingly infinite possibilities, but God has access to all the possibilities. The only caveat is, each book is different for each individual, and each book changes completely with each decision, however, the paths are always leading to a certain end, but that end is only certain for that instant.
Peace,
Tay -
Salaams Tanveer, All
OUR FIRST BLUNDER
First of all we were not even supposed to be on Earth. We were created to serve Allah and we were supposed to remain in Heaven. Then out of our choice to remain ignorant and not trust Allah we committed a grave sin.
After our creation we were living in Heaven peacefully IN OUR FIRST LIFE and our Lord used to communicate with us. The only thing forbidden was to "eat from the tree" and Allah gave us fair warning
7173 And your Lord took for the children of Adam from their backs, their progeny; and He made them witness over themselves "Am I not your Lord?" They said "Yes, we bear witness." Thus you cannot say on the Day of Resurrection that you were unaware of this.
5666 You have come to know about the first creation. If only you would remember.
235 And We said "O Adam, reside you and your mate in the paradise, and eat from it bountifully as you both wish, and do not approach this tree, else you will be of those who did wrong."Everything was fine until Iblis deceived us and we disobeyed Allah and ate from the tree with our own free choice. As soon as we did that it caused irreversible changes in us. Before that our soul was visible to us but our physical body/ego/sin was hidden from us. After eating from the tree our body/ego became visible and our soul became invisible, like on Earth here and we became mortal and our physical desires like hunger, sleep, excretion etc. manifested. We thereafter realized our folly and repented and Allah forgave us but because we had caused irreversible changes in ourselves we suffered its consequences and died ! We were then reborn on Earth and are here because of OUR CHOICE and not because we were FORCED. We did it to ourselves.
OUR SECOND BLUNDER
Allah gave us a second chance out of His Mercy and sent us to Earth. Even then He offered us to accept the trust or not. Out of our choosing to remain ignorant we chose to accept the trust. I am pretty sure Allah must have given us knowledge at that time and informed us of the consequences of accepting the trust including ending up in Hell. We continued to be stubborn and ignorant and accepted the trust.
3372 We displayed/presented the trust on the skies/space and the earth, and the mountains, so they refused that they bear it, and they were cautious/afraid from it, and the human bore it, that he truly was unjust/oppressive, ignorant
The following is the covenant that resulted from this trust
3660-61 Did I not make a covenant to you, Adam's descendants, that you do not serve the devil, he truly is for you a clear/evident enemy, and that you serve Me, that is a straight path?
THIRD BLUNDER OF SOME (MOST) OF US
Then after that He continued to give us the knowledge required to make the right choices. Now if anyone continues to choose to remain ignorant and/or not trust Allah and keep serving the devil and end up in Hell then it is not Allah's fault. He is Merciful and Just. Only we are to blame if we end up in Hell. Those of us who will make the same mistake of being deceived by Iblis/ego again and rejecting the truth will have to suffer the consequences and that will be OUR CHOICE.
I disagree with you Tanveer. Adam was not on Heaven or in any place other than Earth itself. Adam was created from Earth to live on Earth. Earth was not a punishment for his mistake. His punishment was to get him out from that perfect place, a place somewhere here on Earth where he was perfectly enjoying his living to another place also somewhere here on Earth but that is so rough that he has to survive. It was a change from living to survival. Both phases took place on this Earth.
Allah did not change his plan because of Adam's disobedience. The judgment Day's Paradise and Hell are there waiting. They are the last and final stage saved for the deserving. They haven't been occupied yet.Another thing that I would like to draw your attention to, Tanveer
Therefore the correct translation of Ya'lamu in 3143 and 917 should be "He distinguishes" because Ya'lamu is followed by "min" in both. In 293 Ya'lamanna is not followed by "min" but preceded by it which perhaps according to arabic grammar should still be translated as "He will distinguish" and that meaning would fit perfectly and there would be no contradiction with 2255, 20108, 2129, and 2275.
"min" is not an added thing to the verb here. The "m" belongs to the original root verb. So it is 3alama-Ya3lamo. When we add the "Anna" so the verb would look like this "Ya3lamanna" this does not change the meaning whether the meaning is to Know or to Distinguish as both are correct. Adding the "Anna" would only add confirmation to the meaning, more emphasis and force. It will add "will definitely/surely/clearly ...so and so"
I will give you this example
Sa3lamo my result tomorrow= I will know my result tomorrow.
Sa3lamanna my result tomorrow= I will definitely/surely/clearly/beyond doubt know my result tomorrow."Anna" can also be "Onna". Both would mean the same thing confirmation. But using "Anna" or "Onna" depends on the grammatical situation of the verb.
WaSsalaamm,
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Salaamun alaikum Taj,
Adam was not on Heaven or in any place other than Earth itself. Adam was created from Earth to live on Earth. Earth was not a punishment for his mistake. His punishment was to get him out from that perfect place, a place somewhere here on Earth where he was perfectly enjoying his living to another place also somewhere here on Earth but that is so rough that he has to survive. It was a change from living to survival. Both phases took place on this Earth.
Before you state your understanding as a fact please provide evidence for the above from Al-Quran. It is not a good practice to uphold something based on conjecture without knowledge. I have provided all the evidences from Al-Quran in my previous post supporting my understanding which looks like you have conveniently ignored. I will reproduce some of those ayat for your convenience
Adam was in paradise
235 And We said "O Adam, reside you and your mate in the paradise, and eat from it bountifully as you both wish, and do not approach this tree, else you will be of those who did wrong."
719 "And Adam, reside with your mate in the paradise, and eat from wherever you please; but do not approach this tree or you will be of the wicked."
722 So he misled them with deception; and when they tasted the tree, their sin became apparent to them, and they rushed to cover themselves with the leaves of the paradise; and their Lord called to them "Did I not forbid you from that tree, and tell you that the devil is your clear enemy?"
20115 So We said "O Adam, this is an enemy to you and your mate. So do not let him take you out from the paradise, else you will have hardship."and then he was sent to Earth
724 He said "Descend; for you are enemies to one another; and on Earth you will have residence and provisions until the appointed time."
"min" is not an added thing to the verb here. The "m" belongs to the original root verb. So it is 3alama-Ya3lamo. When we add the "Anna" so the verb would look like this "Ya3lamanna" this does not change the meaning whether the meaning is to Know or to Distinguish as both are correct. Adding the "Anna" would only add confirmation to the meaning, more emphasis and force. It will add "will definitely/surely/clearly ...so and so"
I will give you this example
Sa3lamo my result tomorrow= I will know my result tomorrow.
Sa3lamanna my result tomorrow= I will definitely/surely/clearly/beyond doubt know my result tomorrow.Looks like you completely missed what I was trying to say. I am not discussing "anna". I am talking about the "min" (minkum) separate from the word "Ya'lam" which appears in the sentence a few words later.
003142 Am hasibtum an tadkhuloo aljannata walamma yaAAlami Allahu allatheena jahadoo minkum wayaAAlama alssabireena
009016 Am hasibtum an tutrakoo walamma yaAAlami Allahu allatheena jahadoo minkum walam yattakhithoo min dooni Allahi wala rasoolihi wala almu/mineena waleejatan waAllahu khabeerun bima taAAmaloonaI am trying to prove that instead of "Ya'lami Allahu" being translated as "Allah knows" in those ayat it should be translated as "Allah distinguishes" based on the presence of "min" (minkum) following the word "Ya'lamu" in 3143 and 917 otherwise the translation "Allah knows" causes a glaring contradiction as per Nadia's post. In 293 I am talking about the "min" appearing one word before "Ya'lamanna" in ".......allatheena min qablihim falaya'lamanna........" Please reread mine and Nadia's previous posts carefully. Thank you,
Regards,
Tanveer
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Salaams Tanveer, All
Salaamun alaikum Taj,
Adam was not on Heaven or in any place other than Earth itself. Adam was created from Earth to live on Earth. Earth was not a punishment for his mistake. His punishment was to get him out from that perfect place, a place somewhere here on Earth where he was perfectly enjoying his living to another place also somewhere here on Earth but that is so rough that he has to survive. It was a change from living to survival. Both phases took place on this Earth.
Before you state your understanding as a fact please provide evidence for the above from Al-Quran. It is not a good practice to uphold something based on conjecture without knowledge. I have provided all the evidences from Al-Quran in my previous post supporting my understanding which looks like you have conveniently ignored. I will reproduce some of those ayat for your convenience
Adam was in paradise
235 And We said "O Adam, reside you and your mate in the paradise, and eat from it bountifully as you both wish, and do not approach this tree, else you will be of those who did wrong."
719 "And Adam, reside with your mate in the paradise, and eat from wherever you please; but do not approach this tree or you will be of the wicked."
722 So he misled them with deception; and when they tasted the tree, their sin became apparent to them, and they rushed to cover themselves with the leaves of the paradise; and their Lord called to them "Did I not forbid you from that tree, and tell you that the devil is your clear enemy?"
20115 So We said "O Adam, this is an enemy to you and your mate. So do not let him take you out from the paradise, else you will have hardship."and then he was sent to Earth
724 He said "Descend; for you are enemies to one another; and on Earth you will have residence and provisions until the appointed time."
Try to read the transliteration in those Ayat and you will not see the word Paradise = Firdous.
You will only find the word Jannah which is a word that can be used to mean Paradise or to mean a Beautiful Garden. There are many examples in the Quran where the word Jannah appears to give the meaning of a beautiful place that can be a home and a garden.Secondly Iblees or evil does not exist in Paradise. You can check the Ayat with the description of Paradise and you will find them all talking about the purity = 6aharah of everything and everyone in it. God did not create Paradise and then after the incident God purified it!
Thirdly Descend does not mean Get out and then the door is shut.
It means move from a special place to a place that is less in quality. And that is exactly the case on Earth. Living conditions are not all the same around the world.
So Descend is like when you come down from upstairs to downstairs but you are still in the same house!
The letter 'Wa' can also mean Also or still.
God here reassures Adam and his wife afer they have repented that Earth is vast still and so they will still be able to settle and find joy.
So the rest of the Ayah would be like this Also you will/You will still find settlement and enjoyment until some time?. Some time does not necessarily mean until Judgment day.Allah has created Adam as a khaleefah in charge to build this Earth. Earth was not intended as a punishment. Earth is Adam's and our Birthplace and a test ground for humanity. We are being continuously tested.
Adam was not tested once. He probably did many mistake, the way we all do. The one mistake mentioned in the Quran was just one example of his mistakes and he was probably being moved from one place to another according to his and his wife's actions.
Allah gave us in the Quran examples of things that happened and will happen. Take the story of the people of Prophet Lot. Did their action end by them? That story was just a real example of History.As for the second part of the post I did read your post quickly and I did not think that you were speaking about the preposition "min".
Tanveer,
In the Quran you won?t find an Ayah for everything. We have sometimes to conclude, as for example in the case of the Halal meat.
We could reach different conclusions based on the same Ayat depending on how much we have learned the Quran as a whole.Wa Ssalaamm
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Salaamun alaikum brother Taj,
Try to read the transliteration in those Ayat and you will not see the word Paradise = Firdous.
You will only find the word Jannah which is a word that can be used to mean Paradise or to mean a Beautiful Garden. There are many examples in the Quran where the word Jannah appears to give the meaning of a beautiful place that can be a home and a garden.Please give me the evidence for your above understanding. Please give me proof from a dictionary or the rest of Al-Quran that Jannah means Earth. Any dictionary of Al-Quran says it means "garden" or "paradise" but none say it can mean "Earth". Paradise and garden are synonymous. I might agree with you only as far as that the "paradise" that we were in may not be the paradise that the righteous will go to in the Life Hereafter. But where does it say that Jannah is Earth? It could have been another planet or galaxy or somewhere else.
282 And those who believe and do good work, they are the people of Paradise, in it they abide eternally.
Arabic Original Text 282
2111 And they said "None shall enter Paradise except those who are Jewish or Nazarenes;" this is what they wish! Say "Bring forth your proof if you are truthful."
Arabic Original Text 2111
3134 And race towards forgiveness from your Lord and a Paradise whose width encompasses the width of the heavens and the Earth; it has been prepared for the righteous.
Arabic Original Text 3134In the above ayat and many many more, Allah uses the word Jannah for Paradise.
According to dictionary of Al-Quran by Abdul Mannan Omar, "Firdaus" means fertile land; the garden that contains everything that should be in a garden; orchard; fruitful valley; the best place of Paradise.
So it can mean garden too and is another word used to describe Paradise
18103 Those who believe and do good works, they will have gardens of Paradise as a dwelling place.
Arabic Original Text 18103Descend does not mean Get out and then the door is shut.
It means move from a special place to a place that is less in quality. And that is exactly the case on Earth. Living conditions are not all the same around the world.
So Descend is like when you come down from upstairs to downstairs but you are still in the same house!
The letter 'Wa' can also mean Also or still.
God here reassures Adam and his wife afer they have repented that Earth is vast still and so they will still be able to settle and find joy.In the universe you can be living on another planet in another galaxy and "descend" to Earth. Descend does not always mean from the same place. Even if it does mean from same place, the whole universe is one big place and you can "descend" from one place of the universe to another, for example from one galaxy to another. Where in Al-Quran it says Jannah = Earth? Allah uses two separate words for the two and they dont seem to be mutually inclusive.
So the rest of the Ayah would be like this Also you will/You will still find settlement and enjoyment until some time?. Some time does not necessarily mean until Judgment day.
Where do you get your understanding that the period of time mentioned in the above ayat does not necessarily mean until Judgement Day? Please prove it from Al-Quran. PM translates it as follows
724 He said "Descend; for you are enemies to one another; and on Earth you will have residence and provisions until the appointed time."
Appointed time implies until the Judgement Day.
1539 "Until the Day of the appointed time."
17100 Did they not see that God who has created the heavens and the Earth is able to create their like? And He has made an appointed time for them in which there is no doubt. But the wicked refuse anything except rejection.
463 We did not create the heavens and the Earth, and everything between them except with truth, and for an appointed time.
5447 The Hour is their appointed time, and the Hour is far worse and more painful.The above ayat seem to imply that the appointed time is until the Day of Judgement.
Earth was not intended as a punishment. Earth is Adam's and our Birthplace and a test ground for humanity. We are being continuously tested.
Adam was not tested once. He probably did many mistake, the way we all do. The one mistake mentioned in the Quran was just one example of his mistakes and he was probably being moved from one place to another according to his and his wife's actions.I agree that Earth is not intended as a punishment but rather as a test ground. This is based on the following ayat that shows that Adam was forgiven and then sent to Earth, so how can it be a punishment wen he was forgiven?
20120 Then his Lord recalled him, and He forgave him and gave guidance to him.
20121 He said "Descend from this, all of you, for you are enemies to one another. So, when My guidance comes to you;"In my post I did not say we were sent here for our punishment but as a consequence of our actions
tanveermd wrote We thereafter realized our folly and repented and Allah forgave us but because we had caused irreversible changes in ourselves we suffered its consequences and died ! We were then reborn on Earth and are here because of OUR CHOICE and not because we were FORCED. We did it to ourselves.
Taj wrote We could reach different conclusions based on the same Ayat depending on how much we have learned the Quran as a whole.
Agreed, but we should form our conclusions based on evidences from Al-Quran.
In the Quran you won?t find an Ayah for everything. We have sometimes to conclude, as for example in the case of the Halal meat.
Be careful brother, you might be treading dangerous waters !! Allah clearly says in Al-Quran that it is fully detailed and complete and that Allah does not neglect anything in it.
1713 And everything We have detailed completely.
1689 "And We have revealed the Book to you which has the clear explanation of everything <wa nazzalna_ 'alaikal kita_ba tibya_nal likulli shai'iw>, and a guidance and mercy and good news for those who submit."
640 We did not leave anything out of the record; then to their Lord they will be gathered.
6116 "Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you this Scripture fully detailed?" <al-kitaaba mufaSSalan> Those to whom We have given the Scripture know it is sent down from your Lord with truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.
6117 And the word of your Lord has been completed with truth and justice; there is no changing His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower.
413 ?A Book of which the verses are distinctly detailed <fuSSilat ayaatahu>, an Arabic Qur?an for people who know?Regards,
Tanveer
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What's the point of trying to make the God subject to such "logical" thinking?
The way I see it, belief in God and a religion must be free of logical contradiction. Otherwise, as I see it, God would not be just. Why would He create us with reason if we would have to "crucify" it (in the words of Kirkegaard) in order to have faith? My reading of the Qur'an confirms to me that God wants us to be logical and rational (note that He often points out the illogical arguments of various unbelievers).
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An omniscient god does not allow for free will.
You have grasped what "omniscient" means! Humanity has spent centuries to reconcile this with Free Will but to no avail. The fact is humanity will not be able to reconcile this without rejecting ominiscience...
Regards,
I think perhaps you have not been very clear in stating your position? Perhaps you mean that some notions of omniscience are not compatible with free will, but this doesn't mean that it is impossible for there to be a way to reconcile the two. Moreover, there are a number of perfectly reasonable explanations, but they would imply that God is not merciful (or they seem to imply this). So the issue is Free Will + Omniscient, Merciful God. I don't think we should just throw up our hands and say we can't understand this--I think we should try to resolve it to the best of our abilities.
This reminds me of the (rather shallow) view that some have that the notion of omnipotence is inherently illogical. The supposed "paradox" is, can God create a rock so heavy that He cannot lift it? Either way you answer it, apparently it's a blow to God's omnipotence. But actually it's not. God cannot create an object that cannot logically exist. Such an object is meaningless, the same way God cannot "green sideways", since such an action, as stated, is meaningless. (Of course, one could give a meaning to "green sideways", but in standard English, that phrase is both meaningless and ungrammatical.)
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Possibility number 2 implies a God that is not knowledgeable of everything and would contradict a lot of ayat. But what if the absolute certain knowledge of a random event is not possible? The God may see the future and find out the outcome but if He sees the future again the outcome might be different because the choices made by humans are random events (free will implies randomness). This is analogous to a program on a spreadsheet based on a random number generator. Each time we run the program it can have a different outcome. We can travel in time and see what the outcome was of a certain run but if we came back and ran the program again at a slightly different time the result could be different. So Allah may know all the possible outcomes and in that sense He is All Knowing but the exact outcome might not be known unless the actual program is run and followed to the end.
I think that such a notion is, in fact, incompatible with God's All-Knowing nature. I'm not quite sure how you're using the word "random" here, but you seem to be implying that God cannot have complete knowledge of the future. (I don't mean to imply that you actually subscribe to this view, since you didn't make that clear, but merely what I see as the consequences of such a belief.)
Your example of a random number generator is quite an interesting one! For just about "random" functions in computer programs are not random at all--they are what is called "pseudo-random". This means that they are in fact deterministic, but the numbers that the random number generator spits out adhere to some probability distribution (for instance, every integer in some range is just as likely as any other). See http//dict.die.net/pseudorandom%20number/, for instance.
A true random number generator has to sample processes that are truly non-deterministic, such as physical processes (such as atmospheric noise or radioactive decay). See http//www.random.org/essay.html for more on this.
Now, is the string of random numbers generated by a true random number generator, such as random.org, known to God? My answer is "yes, of course."
tanveermd, I think you brought up some very good points in your post. I think right now I am leaning toward option #3, and I am reading the very interesting essay "Eternal Hell and Merciful God".
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Salaamun alaikum geek girl,
Welcome to the forum !
I wish I knew your real first name so I could address you by it !
tanveermd wrote
Possibility number 2 implies a God that is not knowledgeable of everything and would contradict a lot of ayat. But what if the absolute certain knowledge of a random event is not possible? The God may see the future and find out the outcome but if He sees the future again the outcome might be different because the choices made by humans are random events (free will implies randomness). This is analogous to a program on a spreadsheet based on a random number generator. Each time we run the program it can have a different outcome. We can travel in time and see what the outcome was of a certain run but if we came back and ran the program again at a slightly different time the result could be different. So Allah may know all the possible outcomes and in that sense He is All Knowing but the exact outcome might not be known unless the actual program is run and followed to the end.geek girl wrote
I think that such a notion is, in fact, incompatible with God's All-Knowing nature. I'm not quite sure how you're using the word "random" here, but you seem to be implying that God cannot have complete knowledge of the future. (I don't mean to imply that you actually subscribe to this view, since you didn't make that clear, but merely what I see as the consequences of such a belief.)Since my post quoted by you above, some new information was brought to my attention by Nadia which completely changed my thought process (please see Nadia's subsequent post about the word "Ya'lamu" in 3143 and 917 meaning "He distinguishes" rather than "He knows" and my subsequent post which researched that in more detail). I was just trying to explore some possibilities and reconcile two apparently contradicting sets of ayat. The new information brought to my attention shows that the two sets of ayat are not contradictory at all but the first set of ayat was mistranslated leading to my erroneous attempts to reconcile them. I believe and have always believed that Allah is Allknowing and knows everything as you have stated in your post
Now, is the string of random numbers generated by a true random number generator, such as random.org, known to God? My answer is "yes, of course."
Agreed. My own quote from the first sentence of my post
I believe that Allah is Just and Merciful and All Knowledgeable. I also believe that we have free will to choose our actions.
I have now managed to reconcile the idea of a Merciful, Just and Allknowing God (please see mine and Ayman's subsequent posts proving that it is our ignorance that is to blame and not the Mercy of The Allknowing God).
Eternal Hell and Merciful God is a very enlightening article !! I am looking forward to your enlightening comments on it.
Regards,
Tanveer
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Salaams Tanveer, All
I see that you insist that 'Jannah' can mean only Paradise The Reward for the Believers! While clearly to my understanding 'Jannah' can mean both The Paradise and also any awesome garden on Earth.
You asked for a proof from the Quran. Here it is
Take a look at the following Ayat in any possible translation, as well as in transliteration and then tell me if Allah means by the word 'Jannah', which appears in them in the singular form, the dual and plural, strictly the Paradise The Reward for the Believers, or could it mean also any awesome garden on Earth!Thank you!
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Eternal Hell and Merciful God is a very enlightening article !! I am looking forward to your enlightening comments on it.
I really liked the article (http//www.yuksel.org/e/religion/hell.htm), and I agreed with all of it, up until the very end! Basically, I disagree with the notion that the unbelievers end up being annihilated if/when Hell is destroyed. To me, this does not mesh with the notion of a merciful God--why should God even create these souls in the first place if they end up doing a bunch of bad stuff, going to hell, and eventually be destroyed? Also, I have read some illuminating discussions of this issue by Christian theologian who argued that just as it would be denying a person's dignity for God to force him to believe something, so would it be denying a person's dignity to destroy him. (He used a very nice argument starting from the premise that God would not treat humans as means to an end, but as ends in themselves, in the Kantian sense.)
My sister's has pointed out to me that there is no reason to believe that time makes any sense at all in absence of a physical world. I'm not sure what is the standard view on the matter, but I don't believe that we will experience heaven and hell in our physical bodies--it will be our non-material souls that go to one of these "places". (Of course the Koran does state that our physical bodies will be reconstitued for Judgement Day, but that is so that they bear witness to our deeds in this world.) So, if there is no physical body, then Heaven and Hell are simply states that a soul will experience. And obviously all of the descriptions of Heaven and Hell that talk about physical things (i.e., gardens in Heaven), are clearly metaphorical.
And there's no reason to assume that it's a binary thing--either you're in a heaven-state, and it's like such and such, or you're in a hell-state, which has some other properties. Rather, I see it as a continuum. Those who are more spiritual and holy, and therefore closer to God, are going to be in the highest possible Heaven-state. At some point on the continuum, of course, a person has divorced himself from God entirely, and Hell will be the absence of God, along with the realization that he has made a terrible, terrible mistake in his life.
But why assume that you're in some Heaven- or Hell-state, and you stay in that state "forever"? In other words, why assume that you cannot grow spiritually once there is no longer a physical body? If we consider that "eternally" doesn't really have the meaning of "forever and ever" if the notion of time is radically different, then "eternal" is also a metaphor, just as were the gardens in Heaven. My sister's view on the matter (which I am not totally sure I accept) is that the damage done to one's soul that puts it in the Hell-state is so extensive, and such a setback, that essentially the only way we can comprehend it is to imagine that we are in that state forever.
Also, another alternative explanation (as I see it) to Yuksel's argument is that perhaps when Hell is destroyed (of course, imagining that it is a physical place, which I don't believe it is!), the soul is "recycled" and will be put in the physical world of the next creation, if there is one. This is more or less reincarnation (though not in the Hindu sense, since the physical bodies would always be human), which I don't necessarily believe in, but as far as I am aware, nothing in the Koran rules out the possiblity of reincarnation.
Donna
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Salaamun alaikum brother Taj,
I see that you insist that 'Jannah' can mean only Paradise The Reward for the Believers! While clearly to my understanding 'Jannah' can mean both The Paradise and also any awesome garden on Earth.
Please do not misquote me. Let's see what I said
Please give me proof from a dictionary or the rest of Al-Quran that Jannah means Earth. Any dictionary of Al-Quran says it means "garden" or "paradise" but none say it can mean "Earth".
Now where do I insist that "jannah" can mean only "Paradise the reward for the believers". It can mean paradise or a garden. Paradise could mean a garden on Earth or "Paradise the reward for the believers". But nowhere it means "Earth". It could be a garden on Earth but not "Earth". All I asked you was to show me where in Al-Quran "jannah" means "Earth" and you still have not shown me that.
You asked for a proof from the Quran. Here it is
Take a look at the following Ayat in any possible translation, as well as in transliteration and then tell me if Allah means by the word 'Jannah', which appears in them in the singular form, the dual and plural, strictly the Paradise The Reward for the Believers, or could it mean also any awesome garden on Earth!Any word's meaning depends on how it is used in the context. I checked all the above ayat. In all of the above ayat "jannah" clearly means "a garden on Earth" from the context. In each of the above instances if you read the ayat before and after it is obvious that Allah is talking about garden/gardens on Earth. However nowhere "jannah" means "Earth".
In the ayat pertaining to Adam's first residence, the word "jannah" in those ayat cannot mean "a garden on Earth" because there is no clear cut reference to a garden on Earth in the context i.e. the ayat before and after. This is in stark contrast to the ayat that you quoted. In each of your quoted ayat, Allah makes it very clear that He is talking about a garden on Earth. If Adam's prior residence was on a garden on Earth, then Allah would have made it very clear in the context.
Let's analyze the pertinent ayat
229 He is the One who created for you all that is on Earth, then He attend to the universe and made it seven universes, and He is aware of all things.
230 And your Lord said to the Angels "I am placing a successor on Earth." They said "Would You place in it he who would corrupt in it, and spill blood, while we sing Your glory, and praise You?" He said "I know what you do not know."It is obvious that Adam is not on Earth so far as Allah is talking about placing him on Earth but has not placed him on Earth yet. So how could he be in a garden on Earth???
231 And He taught Adam the description of all things, then He displayed them to the Angels and said "Inform Me the descriptions of these things if you are truthful."
232 They said "Glory be to You, we have no knowledge except that which You have taught us, You are the Knowledgeable, the Wise."
233 He said "O Adam, inform them of the description of these," so when he informed them of their descriptions, He said "Did I not tell you that I know the unseen of heavens and Earth, and that I know what you reveal and what you were hiding?"
234 And We said to the Angels "Submit to Adam," so they submitted except for Satan, he refused and became arrogant, and became of the rejecters.
235 And We said "O Adam, reside you and your mate in the paradise, and eat from it bountifully as you both wish, and do not approach this tree, else you will be of those who did wrong."It is obvious from the context that Adam is still not on Earth. But he is in a garden so obviously that garden cannot be on Earth.
236 So, the devil tricked them from it, and he brought them out from what they were in, and We said "Descend; for you are enemies to one another; and on Earth you will have residence and provisions until the appointed time."
NOW Adam is being sent to Earth. The words "and on Earth you WILL have residence" makes it very obvious that the "jannah" mentioned in 235 is not a garden on Earth.
Regards,
Tanveer
