The meaning of the words of the Quran by a rational mathematical equation

Iyyaka

Salam,

I share with you a brief English summary of my "reasoned" approach for finding the meaning of the words of the Quran (A methodology that you will find at this link (https//reveniraucoran.fr/methodologie/ - in french or with google translation).

Understanding the quran is understanding a language, in what concerns us Quranic Arabic of the 7th century and its specificities.
So, to make it simple and basic, in a very overwhelming majority of cases, the meaning of a vocalised word from the Quran is tantamount to resolving the following equation (by taking into account the order of the terms of the equation)

Formula = (1) deep sense of the root + (2) sense of the form + (3) sense of the context (textual and anthropological studies).

Three simple examples that help us to have a better overview of its practical application

--- 1 --- First, the importance of the textual context

The form "l-ʿafwa" appears in two verses 2-219 and 7-199 (http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=Efw#(2219)
=> Literally, from the signifier, we obtain the word "Excess" in English. But, through the play of the textual context, the signified is different

In 2-219 it is an "Excess of goods"
In 7-199 it is about an "Excess of the thing, action which exceeds the ordinary or allowed measure."

--- 2 --- Then, we have to take into account the importance of the deep meaning of a word for having a better understanding of the richness of the semantic field of the Arabic language

Example with the word "jabīni" (37-103), a Quranic hapax. This word comes from the root "jīm bā nūn" which can take many forms and meanings
"cheese, cowardice, the part above the temple, cemetery".
What is the common point of all these senses ? The deep meaning of this root focus on the act or the fact or the state of being "retract".

--- 3 --- Finally, the cultural and historical context of the Quranic revelation is important to take into account to avoid anachronism

Words travel in time and space, imaginations and thoughts wander...In brief, societies change and so do their needs. So the language often reflects these changes. The word is still there but its meaning has changed.

For example, this is the case with the word "zakat" which, in a religious context after the Qur'anic time, has become synonymous with "legal alms" whose levy PURIFIES on the religious, sacred and moral level, the good of those who own it. In the minds of many people it carries an imaginative charge which corresponds to the "zakât al mâl" (literally the Zakat on money) whose tax rate is 2.5%. This is an established fact for almost all the majority of traditionnal Muslims, and for standard translations "the poor-due, poor-rate, welfare tax, pay alms-tax, the purifying alms etc."
However, the root refers not to the concept of purification but to that of "growth, increase, development" in an eminently positive sense.Moreover, its Qur'anic use easily shows that we cannot reduce this term to the narrow sense that it took later for those who read the text without reading bias or interpolation (NB Probably the greatest danger for anyone who wants to translate or understand - I was and i am sure a victim of this myself the work will never stop).

Tools for helping non Arabist or Arabist (a great job)

http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm (a link to several dictionaries for each root word)
http//corpus.quran.com/
http//quranix.org/
https//quranx.com/1.1
http//www.haqeeqat.pk/roots/intro.htm

Peace be upon you and may God help us to have a better detailed understanding of his last Holy Scripture (the main message is easily to understand).
God knows best.

Mazhar

Agreed without combination of these three the meanings derived by use of dictionary would be straight away erroneous.

http//haqeeqat.pk/TranslationTripletTheory.htm

Root ع ف و

Words from this Root in the Grand Qur’ān

a) Total occurrences 35

b) No of constructions 21

Noun 4; Recurrence 8; Verb 17; Recurrence 27

Ibn Faris stated

(مقاييس اللغة)

العين والفاء والحرف المعتلّ أصلان يدلُّ أحدهما على تركِ الشيء، والآخر على طَلَبِه. ثم يرجع إليه فروعٌ كثيرة لا تتفاوَتُ في المعنى.عفا عنه يعفُو عَفْواً.

That it leads to the perception of let go a thing; and secondly denotes its demand, claim.

Lane Lexicon It was, or became, effaced, erased, rased, or obliterated; (S, Msb, K as also ↓ تعفّى (K) and it, or he, perished, came to nought or to an end, or died. (S, TA.) One says, عَفَا الأَثَرُ The trace, vestige, or footprint, was, or became, effaced,

http//haqeeqat.pk/roots/(989).htm

2219

وَيَـسْئَلُونَكَ مَاذَا يُنفِقُونَ قُلِ ٱلْعَفْوَۗ

And they ask you the Messenger as to what possession should they keep spending. You tell them; "You people spend that whichever you can efface-spare".

اورآپ(ﷺ)سے لوگ پوچھتے ہیں کہ وہ کن کی اور کیا فلاح و بہبود کے لئے خرچ کریں۔آپ(ﷺ)بتائیں’’تم لوگ دوسروں کی فلاح و بہبود کے لئے جس قدر اور حاجت کے پہلو سے باآسانی الگ کر سکتے ہو وہ خرچ کرو‘‘

خُذِ ٱلْعَفْوَ وَأْمُرْ بِٱلْعُـرْفِ

You the Messenger keep holding the habit of forgivingly overlooking; and command with distinctly known cognizable facts.

وَأَعْـرِضْ عَنِ ٱلْجَـٟهِلِيـنَ .7199١٩٩

However, you avoid confronting the emotionalists, passionate, traditionalists, vain talkers.

Iyyaka

Agreed without combination of these three the meanings derived by use of dictionary would be straight away erroneous.
http//haqeeqat.pk/TranslationTripletTheory.htm
Root ع ف و

Thank for sharing your knowledge.
Of course i put here a synthesis (easy to remember) of my methodology.

Many things have to be developed specially the knowledge of the author of the Quran Allah himself (i will probably say the main subject of the Quran), and the first of its qualities (mother of all the others) the root word r-H-m (already discuss here).

NB synthesis (bring together/collect coherently) = the deep meaning of the triliteral root "qāf rā hamza (ق ر أ)" from which comes the word Quran.

Mazhar

Thank for sharing your knowledge.
Of course i put here a synthesis (easy to remember) of my methodology.

Many things have to be developed specially the knowledge of the author of the Quran Allah himself (i will probably say the main subject of the Quran), and the first of its qualities (mother of all the others) the root word r-H-m (already discuss here).

NB synthesis (bring together/collect coherently) = the deep meaning of the triliteral root "qāf rā hamza (ق ر أ)" from which comes the word Quran.

Importance of the title of a book Perception and meanings conveyed by the title The Qur’ān

Experts and educationists suggest that the first rule in critical and analytical reading is that you must know what kind of a book is in your hand; and they say that we should know this as early in the process as possible, preferably before we begin to read. Many readers ignore titles and prefaces because perhaps they do not think it important to classify the book they are about to read. However, the author of a book facilitates its reader to know the kind of book he is being given by assigning it a title. Obviously, a descriptive and illustrative title will be considered the best for a reader to facilitate him immediately classify the book in hand.

http//haqeeqat.pk/TranslationTitle.htm

TellMeTheTruth

Salam!
Agreed with Iyyaka regarding extracting meanings of Quranic words. However, my approach is a bit different. I believe that TERMS (not words) are a later development. I keep note of original meanings of the words and try to extract meanibgs which could fit for all other occurrences and forms of the words.
Zakat, for example, was a word understood by the then audience as they were familiar with it already. It became a TERM afterwards. There are a number of people who accept that Zakat is not an obligatory charity. It is growth of spiritual nature which is a result of good deeds or obligatory charity, i. E., Sadaqat.
Below is how I use the meaning of عفو. This word means something which is of no more use for the owner or something which can be spared while the others may still have use of it. I can use the word Spare/spare goods for English translation
العفو is spare goods/items which should be spent or given to others.
خذ العفو may mean spare them or it may mean take what is spare (from them). The later meaning is also supported by یمنعون الماعون and other ayahs. So one english word can express the meaning of one arabic word in all occurrences and forms.
Similarily I use the word Back for all iccurrences and forms if the root word ظ ھ ر.
Hope you understand my point.
Peace!

Iyyaka

Salam TellMeTheTruth,

Thanks for sharing your method.

Having a "reasoned" methodology is a prerequesite for the one who wants to limit the personal veils of belief that can obscure a direct access to the textual meaning of the text and that correspond to the author's intention.

To do this, we must not mix two things

What says a text which was addressed first to people who are not us (language, way of life, religious and political environment ..). Indeed, the first recipients of the Quranic message were Arabs from the north-west Arabian coast of the 7th century. And not only for literate Arabs but for the common people too. A revolution...
The rules, the limits of living together, the lessons and the universal principles that we draw from the text that make it alive, today and tomorrow, in brief universal. This is our responsibility.

Personally, I am afraid of betraying the meaning wanted by God and making it public...But in the end, the vision of God (basmala) as God gives himself to be known in the quran is my ultimate refuge.

Peace and may God guide you to the right path.

jkhan

Agreed without combination of these three the meanings derived by use of dictionary would be straight away erroneous.

Formula = (1) deep sense of the root + (2) sense of the form + (3) sense of the context (textual and anthropological studies).

Peace both Mazhar and Iyykaka and rest...

May I know from both of you since both of you agree that this the formula to get the meaning of quran, What is the meaning of the verse where Makka appears in quran..

Pls respond to see whether both of you give the same reply... Just for my knowledge... Coz you may be knowing I am not someone who depend on dictionary but depend on the tone of the verse

Iyyaka

Formula = (1) deep sense of the root + (2) sense of the form + (3) sense of the context (textual and anthropological studies).

Peace both Mazhar and Iyykaka and rest...

May I know from both of you since both of you agree that this the formula to get the meaning of quran, What is the meaning of the verse where Makka appears in quran..

Pls respond to see whether both of you give the same reply... Just for my knowledge... Coz you may be knowing I am not someone who depend on dictionary but depend on the tone of the verse

Peace Jkhan,

This formula is a synthesis. Simple doesn't means easy. If you look at the member 3 of the equation it is not only depend on dictionary.
So I will use your intervention to detail a little more my reasonned methodology and the part 3 of the equation.

I have a SYNCHRONIC and HOLISTIC APPROACH to the Quran. it is an important and decisive part of the resolution of the meaning. The Quran is our superior and absolute criterion and it is the best of dictionaries.
The holistic approach (which I call "textual and anthropological context" in the formula) is different from the atomist approach which isolates the verses from each other while everything is interdependent and coherent (without contradictions).
It's like with a flower beauty is in the vision of this flower, its color, the shape of its petals, but beauty is also found by zooming in and taking into account the landscape that surrounds it at different levels. Your understanding widens then. These two aspects are necessary to fully appreciate this flower.

The textual context has two levels

inter-textuality (the quran is not an isolated text but interacts explicitly or implicitly with other texts from the historical period that historians call "late antiquity&quot
intra-textuality internal references to the text. At this end I use the tools of the "Semitic rhetoric" analysis (or also called "rhetorical analysis" - I should have added it as a tool to my first post but the documentation in English is light). If you are interested you can download the summary sheet on my site and translate it into english
https//reveniraucoran.fr/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/Niveaux-et-figures-de-composition-rh%C3%A9torique.pdf
This tool allows me to best render the principle of symmetry and binarity at work throughout the Quran (there is no better artist than God even in the structuring of his text which plays with time and chronology).

Finally, i am embarrassed to answer your question on the word "makkata" in because it is not the purpose of this post to debate on each word of the quran.
From my understanding, it is a proper name which indicates a place, a territory of residence of the tribe of Quraych.
But like the proper names allah or l-raḥmān they also have a meaning-function(s) that we can study.

NB If Allah wills i will share with you the structuring of suras according to the principles of Semitic rhetoric.

Mazhar

Formula = (1) deep sense of the root + (2) sense of the form + (3) sense of the context (textual and anthropological studies).

Peace both Mazhar and Iyykaka and rest...

May I know from both of you since both of you agree that this the formula to get the meaning of quran, What is the meaning of the verse where Makka appears in quran..

Pls respond to see whether both of you give the same reply... Just for my knowledge... Coz you may be knowing I am not someone who depend on dictionary but depend on the tone of the verse

An excerpt from Intro of Quran Corpus, one of my on going projects

May I tell you that otherwise an old book it has prescribed in its contents its decoding - synthesis method matching synthesis of protein encoding genes? Decoding of protein encoding genes ensures sustaining healthy life, and the book I am referring proclaims it is the sustainer of life to immortal truly living life. It is ever living book, the Grand Qur’ān.

Grand Qur’ān discarded both the theories of translation, i.e. "word by word (also termed as "literal translation" - translating meaning of each lexical item in sequence)" and "Sense-for sense translation - translating the meaning of each whole sentence before moving on to the next", prevalent in the days of its serial publication for translating it to any language of Non-Arab lands. It not only indicated method of its translation but also mentioned keys to evaluate the accuracy of translated target language text. Considering the genealogy and operating system of Arabic language, a little that I have come to know about it, I have named this Theory as Triplet Theory of Translation, exoterically matching it with triplet method of translation of protein encoding genes conveyed by the Messenger (mRNA) in Human Genome.

http//haqeeqat.pk/Quran.Corpus-1.htm

To understand any book in totality it is prerequite
For making the Chewing and Digesting the Life Sustainer Book easy for everyone we firstly need Comprehensive Corpus that breaks it to "molecular" level as under

Segmentation of Text into Semantic Frames; (I have attempted; just 906 frames)
Segmentation of Semantic Frame into Sentences (resembling a Gene in Human genome);
Segmentation of Sentences into Grammatical Units (equivalent Codon) Words and Phrases;
Segmentation of Grammatical Unit (Phrases) to granular level of Word; (unique words (nouns and verbs) are around 16700)
Breaking the Word to molecular level, or we can say try emptying the word semantically as much as we can (Qur’ān defines word and text as a Container); in the manner of complementary anti-codon in Human Genome

(i) Dictionary of Roots (in fact like seed containing DNA of complete embryonic plant -Concept)- they are just 1646.

(ii) Morphological segmentation; (semantic added to Root)

(iii) By Syntax, (semantic added by function and role)

Complying with command of تَدَبُّرٌ bottom-top compilation of Frames by Concept.
Segmentation of Text by Type, like Injunctive, Narrative, Expository, Argumentative, etc. The largest content of text is Narrative; Second largest text is about philosophy and sciences; used as argument to prove Thesis Statement; the last is Informative and Injunctive for personality and society development.
Segmentation of Sentences by structure, simple, compound, complex, and compound-complex.
Segmentation of Text by Rhetorical Devices.

................
The Ayah you referred wherein the word http//haqeeqat.pk/roots/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/48.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20surat%2048/1.gif occurs only once in the Frame 5 of Chapter named http//haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/000.%20Encyclopaedia%20of%20Arabic%20of%20Qur'aan/01.%20Aayaat-Word%20by%20Word%20analysis%20and%20translation/side%20index/images/048.gif meaning "The Victory".

Frame has Ayah 24 to 27. After overpowering an army in the battlefield the triumphant army captures the main/capital city to establish its reign. There is always possibility of resistance and hand to hand fight in the midst of city. The text itself shows that it is the name of City. Her other particular feature is also mentioned.

jkhan

Peace Jkhan,

Finally, i am embarrassed to answer your question on the word "makkata" in because it is not the purpose of this post to debate on each word of the quran.
From my understanding, it is a proper name which indicates a place, a territory of residence of the tribe of Quraych.
But like the proper names allah or l-raḥmān they also have a meaning-function(s) that we can study.

NB If Allah wills i will share with you the structuring of suras according to the principles of Semitic rhetoric.

Peace…
I won’t ask each and every word.. don’t worry dude.. but you have to study each and every word according to what you accepted (formula)…. Isn’t it? No need to be embarrassed … we all are learning and students of quran...when we call us students.. needless to say further.. Btw thank you for your reply… So you take makka as Proper noun while it has other derived meaning…okay…What made you to give priority to take makka as proper noun based on your formula? Why it should be proper noun according to formula? Once you have taken a word as proper noun in quran it can only be a proper noun for that place…. I don’t want to distort your topic, but hope at least relevant what I am asking…

Do you think those who didn't take the word makka as proper noun and still follow your formula went astray or went something seriously wrong for them?

Iyyaka

Peace…
I won’t ask each and every word.. don’t worry dude.. but you have to study each and every word according to what you accepted (formula)…. Isn’t it? No need to be embarrassed … we all are learning and students of quran...when we call us students.. needless to say further.. Btw thank you for your reply… So you take makka as Proper noun while it has other derived meaning…okay…What made you to give priority to take makka as proper noun based on your formula? Why it should be proper noun according to formula? Once you have taken a word as proper noun in quran it can only be a proper noun for that place…. I don’t want to distort your topic, but hope at least relevant what I am asking…

Do you think those who didn't take the word makka as proper noun and still follow your formula went astray or went something seriously wrong for them?

Peace to you,

Did you look at what i said about the textual context in my last post?
Otherwise, Mazhar anwers you very well. I quote him
"
The Ayah you referred wherein the word occurs only once in the Frame 5 of Chapter named meaning "The Victory".

Frame has Ayah 24 to 27. After overpowering an army in the battlefield the triumphant army captures the main/capital city to establish its reign. There is always possibility of resistance and hand to hand fight in the midst of city. The text itself shows that it is the name of City. Her other particular feature is also mentioned.
"
=> the textual context is enough clear. After, beyond his own proper noun, you can say that this name comes from "destruction" and that it has a connection with reality that is why they call their city "makkah" (a place which knew many destructions). In my region for example I know a city whose name is the concatenation of two words city + mist (strong characteristic). But this remains speculation from the quranic point of view because he never says that this city specifically experienced multiple destruction (or it was not clear to me...). Is this the implicit meaning of your question?

The formula is generic but i have some differences in its application with what proposes Mazhar. That's why we can differ about certain minor or major Quranic words or ideas .
For example, in 2-2685 he translates the word "l-faḥshāi" as meaning "he prompts you people to indulge in shameless sexual obsessive attitude." I don't find the same conclusion (i will give my reasoning applying my formula - if you are interested). Unless I am mistaken, I think that I reason more in terms of close correspondence between words and ideas than him, inside a frame as he calls it or between frames. The Quran is traversed within it by the principle of symmetry (para-synonymic or antynomic ..) and/or binarity.

jkhan

Peace to you,

Did you look at what i said about the textual context in my last post?
Otherwise, Mazhar anwers you very well. I quote him
"
The Ayah you referred wherein the word occurs only once in the Frame 5 of Chapter named meaning "The Victory".

Frame has Ayah 24 to 27. After overpowering an army in the battlefield the triumphant army captures the main/capital city to establish its reign. There is always possibility of resistance and hand to hand fight in the midst of city. The text itself shows that it is the name of City. Her other particular feature is also mentioned.
"
=> the textual context is enough clear. After, beyond his own proper noun, you can say that this name comes from "destruction" and that it has a connection with reality that is why they call their city "makkah" (a place which knew many destructions). In my region for example I know a city whose name is the concatenation of two words city + mist (strong characteristic). But this remains speculation from the quranic point of view because he never says that this city specifically experienced multiple destruction (or it was not clear to me...). Is this the implicit meaning of your question?

The formula is generic but i have some differences in its application with what proposes Mazhar. That's why we can differ about certain minor or major Quranic words or ideas .
For example, in 2-2685 he translates the word "l-faḥshāi" as meaning "he prompts you people to indulge in shameless sexual obsessive attitude." I don't find the same conclusion (i will give my reasoning applying my formula - if you are interested). Unless I am mistaken, I think that I reason more in terms of close correspondence between words and ideas than him, inside a frame as he calls it or between frames. The Quran is traversed within it by the principle of symmetry (para-synonymic or antynomic ..) and/or binarity.

Peace both Iyykaka and Mazhr..

If you get true guidance with the way you study the Quran then what else you can ask...
But for me Makka is not proper noun.. I am happy with.. I don't want to divert your topic to one of the mightiest of discussion/debate... God will we all know the exact truth.. Pls carry on your intended topic..thank you for of you for sharing thoughts.. ...

Iyyaka

Peace jkhan,

May god guide us to a better understanding of his last Holy Scripture.

Please share your thoughts on what "makkah" means in a new post.

jkhan

Peace jkhan,

May god guide us to a better understanding of his last Holy Scripture.

Please share your thoughts on what "makkah" means in a new post.

Peace Iyykaka...
Thank you for your request... But unfortunately I don't like to involve in which not much to say... I am sure Makka / Becca topics would have been debated in this forum... You will get some idea..
All I have to say within my knowledge and guidance that Makka is not a place.. Becca most probably a place... Why it is not important for me these locations in connection with my salvation is coz it has nothing to do for my after life... But for research it has much value...
For example if I don't know where the location of Masjid AL haram after thorough study of quran then why should I resort to a location hypothetically or follow the majority since everyone go to a place so shoukd i.. I don't prefer guess work to my belief... I will only do what is clear to me from quran... If Makka is a proper noun for you then you probably may be knowing where the location is or may be not... Not at all significant for me where Makka is and what is the benefit of it...

But for your info... The current day Makka cannot be the mother of towns for sure.. To prove that you need to hide many a glaring proof from quran at the expense of so called holy city in Makka KSA.. Not a single evidence within quran... Only evidence you may grab is this 4824 if taken as pronoun... But it won't give any support but for the sake of love people may attach to this verse and claim Makka is mentioned in quran..
I am not so blind... God save me...
As per quran definitly there were rituals took place from Ibrahim to Mohamed at certain one place... But once the demise abd end of prophets such place has no value. If you notice the fundamental reason to converge to that place...

Mazhar

Peace Iyykaka...
Thank you for your request... But unfortunately I don't like to involve in which not much to say... I am sure Makka / Becca topics would have been debated in this forum... You will get some idea..
All I have to say within my knowledge and guidance that Makka is not a place.. Becca most probably a place... Why it is not important for me these locations in connection with my salvation is coz it has nothing to do for my after life... But for research it has much value...
For example if I don't know where the location of Masjid AL haram after thorough study of quran then why should I resort to a location hypothetically or follow the majority since everyone go to a place so shoukd i.. I don't prefer guess work to my belief... I will only do what is clear to me from quran... If Makka is a proper noun for you then you probably may be knowing where the location is or may be not... Not at all significant for me where Makka is and what is the benefit of it...

But for your info... The current day Makka cannot be the mother of towns for sure.. To prove that you need to hide many a glaring proof from quran at the expense of so called holy city in Makka KSA.. Not a single evidence within quran... Only evidence you may grab is this 4824 if taken as pronoun... But it won't give any support but for the sake of love people may attach to this verse and claim Makka is mentioned in quran..
I am not so blind... God save me...
As per quran definitly there were rituals took place from Ibrahim to Mohamed at certain one place... But once the demise abd end of prophets such place has no value. If you notice the fundamental reason to converge to that place...

How to obey it?

Pointers of explicit nature are embedded within it (the House) which is exclusive peculiarity of it.

مَّقَامُ إِبْرَٟهِيـمَۖ

The standing place of Iebra'heim is therein.

وَمَن دَخَلَهُۥ كَانَ ءَامِنٙاۗ

And whoever had entered therein he was in a state of amnesty and security.

وَلِلَّهِ عَلَـى ٱلنَّاسِ حِجُّ ٱلْبَيْتِ مَنِ ٱسْتَطَاعَ إِلَيْهِ سَبِيلٙاۚ

Beware, the Huj - pilgrimage of the House is an obligation imposed upon such people who have the capacity and wherewithal to travel towards it (the House) for the awe and reverence for Allah the Exalted.

وَمَن كَفَـرَ

And if someone disavowed to discharge this obligation —

jkhan

Dear Big brother Mazhar...

Peace..
I am of the opinion you are someone in my presumption that you are going to current day Makka and perform haj in whatever way you do... Hope my guess is right... No issue for me.. But in case if you want advice based on quran that anyone else should go there, what is your proof that Makka is the place and current day masjid AL haram is the spot and we should as believers go there? How do you confirm that?

I have no clue if I go to current Makka (of course I have been there more than dozen times) what is Safa what is Marwa ehat baith al atheeq etc.. For me No haj without the presence of a prophet....

Iyyaka

Peace jkhan,

Thanks for sharing your opinion about Makkah.

Just a rectification please don't attribute to me the fact that actual Makkah is the Makkah of the Quran.
It is the feeling (i may be wrong) i have by reading your last post directed towards me. If, by the textual context, i admit that the place at the time of the prophet and for the quraich tribe a city/territory was called mekkah, that does not necessarily mean that this quranic place corresponds to the current place we known today.
The truth is above all even if it is difficult to accept it or it destroy my strong beliefs.

But, if Allah wills, I would discuss this after having exposed the structure of sura 2 on my site (i hope in english too).

jkhan

Peace jkhan,

Thanks for sharing your opinion about Makkah.

Just a rectification please don't attribute to me the fact that actual Makkah is the Makkah of the Quran.
It is the feeling (i may be wrong) i have by reading your last post directed towards me. If, by the textual context, i admit that the place at the time of the prophet and for the quraich tribe a city/territory was called mekkah, that does not necessarily mean that this quranic place corresponds to the current place we known today.
The truth is above all even if it is difficult to accept it or it destroy my strong beliefs.

But, if Allah wills, I would discuss this after having exposed the structure of sura 2 on my site (i hope in english too).

I have not attributed to you.. If u read my thread you would get it.. But proper noun means that you have to approach for something to suit the verse... If you are not sure where the this proper noun is located then haj is at from reality to you if you still want to do haj if you think it is a thing to be done... That's what I said to Mazhr.. Confirm me the location within quran...

Mazhar

Dear Big brother Mazhar...

Peace..
I am of the opinion you are someone in my presumption that you are going to current day Makka and perform haj in whatever way you do... Hope my guess is right... No issue for me.. But in case if you want advice based on quran that anyone else should go there, what is your proof that Makka is the place and current day masjid AL haram is the spot and we should as believers go there? How do you confirm that?

I have no clue if I go to current Makka (of course I have been there more than dozen times) what is Safa what is Marwa ehat baith al atheeq etc.. For me No haj without the presence of a prophet....

Then what should we understand from many of the verses without his presence?

jkhan

Then what should we understand from many of the verses without his presence?

Peace...
You shouldn't have posed this question to me.. Coz we know we don't have any prophets as messenger to bring the messages of God after last prophet... ... For that we have complete verses from God to refer... For the yester community without prophets messengers they are not complete.. Coz they will have to depend on their own otherwise.. With prophets living among them or during their era they always had the opportunity to ask questions and even debate on days like haj... Messages wide spread and things were clarified to vast number of people by converging to the predestined place from the time of Ibrahim which was same.. And they return with the message and spread... No-one would have had the book of quran until it was completed.. So during entire life of Mohamed people were listening to him to get their message... Among them the good ones.. "we hear we obey"
Before Mohamed Israelites had their respective books.. And of course prophets and Messengers... Similarly it would have been all around in major cities of the world ... Though we have no clue, God promises that He sent Messengers to all Umma.. There is meaning when God calls FIRST HOUSE BUILT FOR MANKIND... so.. Distant communities would have their house similar to what Ibrahim built to gather and deliver messages.. Suppose if people lived in Mexico after Ibrahim then God would have definitely located a house to converge to deliver messages for respective messengers... But God definitly prefered Israelites and surrounded.. Otherwise He doesn't need to build His first house somewhere around where Ibrahim lived.. As per quran Ibrahim lived not far from where Lut lived..

Now we don't have Prophets bringing messages to be delivered... Suppose if one of those prophets lives now his duty will be to deliver the message.. So probably he would have opted the same spot or any other where most of other prophets from Ibrahim to Mohamed converged during four months period on given days to spread message with debate... That would reach whole world.. But it's not God's plan.. God severed His messages through prophets with intent leaving His final book preserved word by word.. ..

Yes we have many areas which we have to study without any prophets presence... We are totally different community.. Aren't we? Can we be equal to a community that lived with the presence (visible / not visible) of a prophet messenger that also while delivering messages?.. For Me.. No..
Yes Mazhr.. We have to understand many a things on our own using what they left ... But how to practice even before understand the message.. So.. We learn and dedicate time... But they were privileged to get message live on the spot or yearly during haj.. So they converged on purpose .. Why we need to get together to a place which has no verification and what for? Are we short of messages? To listen to whome? Are we receiving messages there? Who is there in Makka for you to listen to?
God says in quran 2227 "And proclaim to the people the Hajj, they will come to YOU (singular).. "
So according to verses it shows that Haj was started with Ibrahim by designating a house to deliver messages and not to equal anything with God.. and God says people will come to Him(Ibrahim)... Same when it continued with other prophets.. People will come towards prophets.. Everyone was not living with respective prophets but far.. So whoever God wanted to reach the message will gather there.. So it will be the duty of prophets to deliver the message yearly whatever came to them apart from what they delivered to their own people living with them instantly ..

God said people will come to Ibrahim so do to other prophets to a place assigned for their own benefit... So without prophets no haj for them... But for us we can always debate coz we have the complete book... We don't need research years and years and figure out hypothetically a place and go there and do rituals... No way... For them everything was well known... Just God making more clear.. That's why God never included that successful believers are those who performed Haj.... We are doing haj.. As long as we learn and debate in right way... But it is not must we should do so.. But for prophets it was must.. Their duty is to deliver and to deliver people should converge and be served and keep the place clean and tidy and keeo certain rules etc etc. The core of haj is debate and spreading message...

Your question is "Then what should we understand from many of the verses without his presence"...

No need his(prophet) presence as God decided no need.. As God decided to preserve the book and stands as the guide then look for it...
For example if you understood salat is 5 times a day and while your fellow brother Waqas understood 2 times then both of you would do what you understood... Same way .. If Makka is for you the place to do haj then do it.. But for me it is not... So.. did any prophet came to intervene in what we do? After all your our decision... But who is guided, God will know.. But yester community with prophets they knew what to do... We are not far from them.. If we choose the right option then we also same like living with prophets.. That right option can only come from God to us...