New article: salat timings as per The Quran
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peace GL,
Please look up the definitions of "clear" and "error". Essentially your objection (not clear error) is that I haven't proven "duluk al shams" is "sunset" and you haven't proven it isn't.
I have no idea what you're referring to with the time frame issue so cannot comment further.Of course there is room for improvement in any work however I am asking for actual verifiable errors/flaws.
peace TMTT,
Please see the links in the article in which further detail is provided, e.g. this one.peace jkhan,
Again I didn't see you pointing out an error/flaw, and it now seems your argument is based on unverifiable chronological order of revelation. Also I have a section with deals with "wusta" here.peace Cerebrus,
I note how you had to re-word my argument, according to your interpretation. In any case I would agree with you IF that was my only argument. -
peace Cerebrus,
I note how you had to re-word my argument, according to your interpretation. In any case I would agree with you IF that was my only argument.I reworded your argument so that YOU can see the flaw. But I guess I have to take baby steps with you so that you don't run away.
You asked for a flaw and will show you one. I'm not debating your entire argument, nor do I care about what that whole thing is about.
From your link
• POINT 1 there are only two salat mentioned in The Quran in a reference format (see 2458, salat al fajr, and, salat al isha). Note that "al salat al wusta" in 2238 is not in the same form .
• POINT 2 the ONLY verse in the plural address to the mumineen which mentions a timed-salat is 2458 which only has two timings.
• POINT 3 it is the ONLY understanding that provides us with a clear time-range for each timed-salat, meaning it is the most logical, clear, coherent and practical.
Your base argument, POINT 1, in itself refers to verse 2458 that happens to mention two salats while it is talking about timings where people should request permission.
POINT 2, you claim 2458 is the only verse "in the plural address to the mumineen that mentions a time-based salat. Sure I'll take your word for it.
POINT 3, your point so far is now an "understanding", and one that provides us with a "clear time-range for each timed-salat" add to it "it is the most logical, coherent clear ....".Explain how a verse that mentions specific timings for people to request permission (for privacy reasons apparently) is now providing a clear-time range for each salat. And how is it the most logical and coherent one ?
Your entire argument is based on the fact that there has been a mention of two salats, implying there is a significance to that in relation to the total number of salats. It doesn't, not logically atleast. Three timings were mentioned in that verse, two of them happened to be salat related, how does that give you a hint about the total number of salats ? Well you assumed it does and you carried on in the rest of your article in finding bits and pieces here and there trying to consolidate your first point.
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Peace Wakas.
So you ignore evidence from Qoran that the setting of the sun/sunset is "Al Ghurub"," Ghurub Al Shams2, or Ghurubiha(when the subject is the sun), like given to you here
Chapter 50 Qaf سورة ق - Qaf Verse 39
فَاصْبِرْ عَلَىٰ مَا يَقُولُونَ وَسَبِّحْ بِحَمْدِ رَبِّكَ قَبْلَ طُلُوعِ الشَّمْسِ وَقَبْلَ الْغُرُوبِIs this "Al Ghurub" here not the setting of the sun/sunset? Like "Tuluu Al Shams " here is the rising of the sun/sunrise?
And here
Chapter 20 Taha سورة طه - Taha Verse 130
فَاصْبِرْ عَلَىٰ مَا يَقُولُونَ وَسَبِّحْ بِحَمْدِ رَبِّكَ قَبْلَ طُلُوعِ الشَّمْسِ وَقَبْلَ غُرُوبِهَا ۖ وَمِنْ آنَاءِ اللَّيْلِ فَسَبِّحْ وَأَطْرَافَ النَّهَارِ لَعَلَّكَ تَرْضَىٰRemember in claiming to refute me about other verses(that were talking about the subject of "the sun setting", you conveniently left out 20130, . was this deliberate since you said, quote
GL first said "maghrib al shams" means "sunset".
I provided evidence that "maghrib" actually means setting time/place.
GL then said "ghurub al shams" describes "sunset" and cited no verse where this phrase occurs (so we can only assume he means when "ghurub" refers to "shams" it means "sunset", so he cited 1886, 20130.
I refuted his claim regarding 1886.
GL had no direct response and then cited 1817.
I analysed 1817 and asked him a simple question how his view can work with this verse.
GL completely avoids answering and then subtly changes his view to "Qoran clearly uses another word for sun setting, To set, will set, has set..."
Note how he doesn't say "sunset"! i.e. his claim now is this word describes the process of setting not only "sunset"You said nothing about 20130?
I say this clearly refutes your take that Duluk Al Shams is the setting of the sun/sunset.
Or are you going to be inconsistent about your approach to Qoran analysis? i.e wanting evidence from Qoran from others while ignoring evidence against you from Qoran?As for "Time frame" ,it means between certain times not to do salat from -to like you assume this is the total lenght of the salat. What is the details of this salat that takes all this time?.
If it was the case,the Arabic for time frame in the verse would have been "Bayna sunset - ila/wa darkness.
Is this clear to you brother?
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
peace Cerebrus,
Explain how a verse that mentions specific timings for people to request permission (for privacy reasons apparently) is now providing a clear-time range for each salat.
Where did I say 2458 provides a clear time-range for each salat? Perhaps it is I who has to baby-step you through my argument so you understand it. It's ok I see where you may have got confused Pay careful attention to my use of "understanding" which refers to my overall position on this issue not a certain verse. You alluded to it here
POINT 3, your point so far is now an "understanding", and one that provides us with a "clear time-range for each timed-salat" add to it "it is the most logical, coherent clear ....".
And how is it the most logical and coherent one ?
Simple. Quran only mentions two, two time-ranges can be understood with start/end points for each, no verse contradicts this position, it's practical for people/community to implement, it uses easily discernible points in the day etc.
peace GL,
"ghurub" can refer to "setting/withdrawing/departing / becoming remote". You never showed in any verse it means "sunset" (i.e. sun below horizon). I have already covered 20130 in my SaBiH article which is linked in the article. Have you read it?Re timeframe
I think I see the point you are trying to make now, and that is
According to you if Quran meant do salat from A to B continuous it would have said "do salat bayna/between A ila/wa B".
Whereas I have understood A ila/to B to mean continuous, i.e. do salat from A to B. (and this is not your view)Simplified
GL's view 1778 does not mean continuous timeframe A ila/to B.
My view 1778 means a continuous timeframe A ila/to B.Have I understood you correctly?
If so, you will have to provide evidence for your view from Quran. I provided a perfect example from 56 wash hands to/ila elbows, unless you only wash parts from hand to elbow. -
peace Cerebrus,
Where did I say 2458 provides a clear time-range for each salat? Perhaps it is I who has to baby-step you through my argument so you understand it. It's ok I see where you may have got confused Pay careful attention to my use of "understanding" which refers to my overall position on this issue not a certain verse. You alluded to it herePOINT 3, your point so far is now an "understanding", and one that provides us with a "clear time-range for each timed-salat" add to it "it is the most logical, coherent clear ....".
Simple. Quran only mentions two, two time-ranges can be understood with start/end points for each, no verse contradicts this position, it's practical for people/community to implement, it uses easily discernible points in the day etc.
Yes I have alluded to your "understanding" and I intentionally put the quotation marks
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To simplify, always good to simplify to get rid of any obfuscations, I'm re-wording your 3 points in the followingPoint 1 Verse 2458 the only verse that mentions two salats in a certain format - salat wusta doesn't count since it has a different form or whatever.
Point 2 Verse 2458 the only verse that mentions two salats in a plural address to the mumineen - not sure how does that advances anything.
Point 3 AD VERBATIM it is the ONLY understanding that provides us with a clear time-range for each timed-salat, meaning it is the most logical, clear, coherent and practical.
Where is the logic ? What you proposed in point 1 and 2 do not justify point 3. In other words, BIAS. Hence the flaw of your argument.
You took 2458,selectively attributed some characteristics to it, format + plural address to the mumineen (How does that give it any power?) ,jumps to point 3 to claim this "understanding" is the most logical coherent understanding, hello ? -
Peace Wakas.
You say, quote
peace GL,
"ghurub" can refer to "setting/withdrawing/departing / becoming remote". You never showed in any verse it means "sunset" (i.e. sun below horizon). I have already covered 20130 in my SaBiH article which is linked in the article. Have you read it?Do you mean the setting of the sun and sunset are two different things?
You are playing a strange game , every translation has setting of the sun /sunset for the verses(5039 and 20130) like you translated 1778. Are you changing your translation of 1778 now?
Translate 5039 and 20130 for us then?
As for the sun below horizon , it is ambiguous, how long after?, Once Ghurub/sunset happens anytime after is after sunset and not sunset.
It is strange how you are playing with meaning of words to get out of the problem!Qoran even deals with when the sun is below the horizon a ,here
Chapter 6 The cattle سورة الأنعام - Al-Anaam Verse 78
فَلَمَّا رَأَى الشَّمْسَ بَازِغَةً قَالَ هَٰذَا رَبِّي هَٰذَا أَكْبَرُ ۖ فَلَمَّا أَفَلَتْ قَالَ يَا قَوْمِ إِنِّي بَرِيءٌ مِمَّا تُشْرِكُونَ
Afalat, ,where does your duluk come into it?
Oh and here is your translation,quote
1778 uphold the salat (at/for) the setting of the sun / sunset to the darkness of the night and reading (of) the dawn...
You translate Duluk Al Shams as setting of the sun/sunset
Now check all the translations of Qoran about 5039 and 20130 they all have setting of the sun//sunset for ghurub.
There is only one setting of the sun/sunset brother.Now the second issue you say ,quote
Re time frame
I think I see the point you are trying to make now, and that is
According to you if Quran meant do salat from A to B continuous it would have said "do salat bayna/between A ila/wa B".
Whereas I have understood A ila/to B to mean continuous, i.e. do salat from A to B. (and this is not your view)No ,that is not what I said. I will have to explain again
Time frame is between two times. you are saying that 1778 gives a time frame. The Arabic of the verse does not agree with you.
if you take it as from-to, like you do it gives the total lenght of the salat.. i.e one continuous long salat?
If it was a time frame of between two times the Arabic would have been "Bayna-ila/wa..So I am asking you if it is one long continuous salat give us the details of it to see if if there exist such a salat.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
peace Cerebrus,
Ahh I see your confusion. You think my list below is sequential, i.e. point 1 leads to point 2 leads to point 3 etc. It's not sequential. I didn't think people would take it as sequential so I may have to clarify that. How about I reword it toOverwhelming evidence from The Quran suggests the regular/timed salat of the mumineen/believers is a minimum of twice daily, with an optional night vigil. The evidence and timings for this are as follows, listed in no particular order
- there are only two salat mentioned in The Quran in a reference format (see 2458, salat al fajr, and, salat al isha). Note that "al salat al wusta" in 2238 is not in the same form .
- the ONLY verse in the plural address to the mumineen which mentions a timed-salat is 2458 which only has two timings.
- it is the ONLY understanding that provides us with a clear time-range for each timed-salat, meaning it is the most logical, clear, coherent and practical.
- it is the ONLY understanding that I have seen which respects the Arabic (i.e. other understandings ignore word forms, grammar, are inconsistent or make baseless claims)
- all verses in the plural address which mention a timed-SaBiH/glorification or timed-THiKR/rememberance reference morning and evening (i.e. two timings)
- all verses which mention a timed-SaBiH or timed-THiKR which could be interpreted as more than two timings are in the singular address
- it is the ONLY understanding that can encompass other salat-timing systems such as thrice daily, or 5 daily, since it is a minimum of two.
8 ) it is the ONLY understanding that shows when The Quran mentions salat timings in a verse it always mentions the obligatory timings (i.e. two) together, unlike other understandings which say Quran sometimes mentions two here, three there, one here, one there etc. Making the understanding presented here the clearest of the variant views. - it is the ONLY timing system which works in all parts of the world. This will be explained later..
I recommend you research the form "al salat al wusta" in comparison to "salat al fajar", and if you feel the use of singular and plural address in Quran is haphazard and thus irrelevant that's up to you.
peace GL,
Yes I view "setting of the sun" and "sunset" as slightly different. Why did you think I put both in, for the fun of it? Have you even read my articles? I note you dodged answering if you had actually read the articles I referred you to. I will not answer any further questions from you that are already explained in the articles I refer you to. If you don't want to read them that's up to you.You keep going on about "ghurub" means "sunset" yet you had no reply to the points I raised about the verses you cited, so let's make it simple. Give me your strongest verse from Quran that proves it means sunset (sun below horizon).
Ok, now I understand what you are saying about time frame. Here is a little tip, why not clarify and say something like this
Do you take "time frame" to mean- one continuous length of time, i.e. that whole period is the length of the timed-salat
or - a time period in which one can do the timed-salat, i.e. it does not have to be for the whole length of the time period.
See how easy that was?
I take it as (1) but as I said before, in my view, the Quran is giving an exemplar/model to follow.
In any case, my point regarding evidence still stands, if you take 1778 as do salat at A (i.e. noon in your view) then it would be nice to have some examples from Quran. The best examples would be other verses with a command X li A ila B, but there may be no other examples, I haven't researched it as it's a difficult thing to research.
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Peace Wakas.
The setting of the sun means only one things sunset. i.e sun has just set-gone below horizon-. However you say this, quote
peace GL,
Yes I view "setting of the sun" and "sunset" as slightly different. Why did you think I put both in, for the fun of it? Have you even read my articles? I note you dodged answering if you had actually read the articles I referred you to. I will not answer any further questions from you that are already explained in the articles I refer you to. If you don't want to read them that's up to you.You keep going on about "ghurub" means "sunset" yet you had no reply to the points I raised about the verses you cited, so let's make it simple. Give me your strongest verse from Quran that proves it means sunset (sun below horizon).
In this case why put both in your translation if you view them as slightly different? And how different? Explain how the setting of the sun and sunset differ? You do not make sense?
Now you give me your weakest verse from Qoran that duluk Al Shams is sunset? The weakest you can find?
Brother, you are now just insisting that regardless of Qoran s view, your view is correct.
Your excuse is "I have not read your article",?
This is an obvious error in your translation of 1778, one does not need to go further ,If you are using two different times according to you( setting of the sun/sunset, then duluk Al Shams means both or both are the same?
Or is this not logical?For the second issue I am asking you to detail this salat that Qoran is asking you to observe for the full duration from the setting of the sun/sunset to darkness. How long , what to do and how?
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace Wakas.
I will deal with this point, quote
You keep going on about "ghurub" means "sunset" yet you had no reply to the points I raised about the verses you cited, so let's make it simple. Give me your strongest verse from Quran that proves it means sunset (sun below horizon).Verse - 50 39 فَاصْبِرْ عَلَىٰ مَا يَقُولُونَ وَسَبِّحْ بِحَمْدِ رَبِّكَ قَبْلَ طُلُوعِ الشَّمْسِ وَقَبْلَ الْغُرُوبِ
Can only mean two things about the sun
Sunrise and sunset.
قَبْلَ طُلُوعِ الشَّمْسِ Before the sun is visible, once it starts to rise it is no longer true as it is sunrise.(Otherwise the expression will describe which stage in the process of the rising of the sun)
Similarlyوَقَبْلَ الْغُرُوبِ While the sun is still visible it is before sunset, hence Ghurub must be sunset,(Otherwise the expression would have given the stage of the process of the sun partly setting). Ghurub can only mean the sun not visible ,hence gone below the horizon.
Al Ghurub= sunset in this verse.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace...
I am extremely sorry, you don't respond as it deserve...
If you think ORDER OF REVELATION is not verifiable then at least you could have pointed out flaw in it... It's OK.. I won't compel you to take it... If you take... That's the end of your two salat conviction....My inner instinct says keep away from this topic, but something is propelling me go tell the people those who would reflect... So dear Waqas.. These replies not gonna make any sense... But let people decide what is right...
So.. Whatever God guided me with, I submit to people..
My point is to those who reflect ...
If Waqas say 1778 is Salat Al Isha and if the timing for it.. That is to say..from sun set darkness of night... Ponder... Then what is the meaning of 11114 ... For what reason...
11114 is referring Two Ends of Nahar... So one of the Salat is Isha... The other one is Fajr...Anyone tell me with common sense...
*** If God explained Isha Salat with extra verse 1778 by explaining its timing, why skipped the timing of Fajr by extra verse?
What is the time of Fajr??So we have to trace the time of Fajr by 11114 ONLY? WHY..
IF we can trace the time of Fajr by merely the verse of 11114 then why can't we trace the timing of Isha which is the one of the TWO Ends..What logic in it folks..?
So God thought that people will not be able trace the timing of 11114 of the timing of Isha so HE should explain with additional verse.. What a nonsensical way that is?
So how's the way of finding timing of Fajr self?
Impossible my dear fellow brothers and sisters.. That's not the way of God...
Can anyone tell what is the timing of Fajr without the verse of 11114? No Right.. Coz 11114 is very manifest... So if one salat is manifest why other end is unclear? Further 1778 and 11114 doesn't even look identical.. You know why? 11114 is "zulafan minal layl" while 1778 is "Ila ghashakal aL lail"
Are these identical my dear fellow believers ? May be for Waqas... Not for me... God doesn't need to confuse people.. And He explained so simply without ambiguity.. But you took it and conventional people took it upside down..
But for waqas "ila ghashak AL Lail" and "zulafan minal AL lail" are identical..
To say Yes.. You have to be out of your mind...
Hope it benefits for those who reflect..
So isn't 11114 enough for both the salat, if the same verse merely is enough for Fajr Salat?
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peace Cerebrus,
Ahh I see your confusion. You think my list below is sequential, i.e. point 1 leads to point 2 leads to point 3 etc. It's not sequential. I didn't think people would take it as sequential so I may have to clarify that. How about I reword it toI recommend you research the form "al salat al wusta" in comparison to "salat al fajar", and if you feel the use of singular and plural address in Quran is haphazard and thus irrelevant that's up to you.
It's not me who is confusing anything. It is your article.
You have listed with numbers your arguments. At POINT 3 you refer to some "understanding" saying "it is the ONLY understanding that provides us with a clear time-range for each timed-salat, meaning it is the most logical, clear, coherent and practical."
What understanding is it ? You presented 2 arguments before. Point 1 laid out your base argument. Point 2 added to it. Point 3 refered to an understanding. I already proved that whatever point 3 is refering to makes little sense in relation to Point 1 and Point 2 as they're not strong enough to justify Point 3.
Now you say they are not in order, meaning that Point 3 was randomly put there refering to an "understanding" that hasn't been laid out yet ? That seems like a flaw to me isn't it ?
Anyways, I said what I wanted to say. That's all for me here.
In relation to Salat in general, I don't think the typical quran-only approach of digging in linguistic and doing these kind of weird analysis of verses makes much sense. If SALAT had a purpose, then its purpose justifies its timing. Lay out the correct purpose of the salat and find out what is the most logical timings to fulfill it. It's not the other way around. This in my opinion is more logical than what you're trying to achieve in your article.
In my understanding of the purpose of "Salat" as a meditative act, I would say the start of one's day, throughout one's day and at the end of one's day. No more specific than that
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my understanding of the purpose of "Salat" as a meditative act, I would say the start of one's day, throughout one's day and at the end of one's day. No more specific than that
We agree.
Peace Brother Wakas another approach to consider would be to ascertain
when salat is prohibited , I think that would be an indicator of
how many salat there are.peace
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peace GL,
I agree that in 5039 it could mean "before the setting / passing away / departing / retiring / removing /disappearing / remoteness (of the sun)." and the superficial understanding how you take it i.e. "sunset" (sun below horizon) is one possibility.
BUT as has been shown previously this word doesn't pinpoint at what exact point of this process it is referring toYou have refuted yourself. In 1886 the imperfect "taghrubu" is used, meaning an action incomplete or in the process of being done, and that is why the verse says "he found it setting IN a muddy spring" clearly showing it had not set yet, thus it cannot mean "sunset".
You then cited 1817 so let's take a closer look
"And you may have seen the sun when it rose inclining away from their cave to the right AND when it GhRBat passing away (from) them to the left..."
- underlined words are perfect verbs
- the verse states it would have possible to see what occurred to the sun
- GhRBat is in the perfect tense BUT "passing away" (taqridu) is in the imperfect (i.e. an action incomplete or in the process of being done). Similarly "inclining away" is imperfect.
According to you GhRBat means sunset so how is it possible to see it passing away from them to the left after it is below the horizon?
Not only did you have no direct reply to any of the above, it is likely why you subtly changed your claim from "sunset" to ""Qoran clearly uses another word for sun setting, To set, will set, has set..." i.e. the process of setting.
In any case, it doesn't make any difference to my view whether that word means sun below horizon or in the process of setting. I cover these verses here
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-SaBiH-from-Quran.htmlThe reason I wrote "setting of the sun / sunset" in the article
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/salat-timings-Quran.html
Is because I take "setting of the sun" to mean when the sun disc touches down on the horizon (i.e. rubs/press it, i.e. duluk) and "sunset" as when the sun is below the horizon. It just so happens "duluk al shams" could mean both. Unlike you (and some others) I'm not going to make a baseless claim it can only mean one thing. Such a claim is utter nonsense and damages the credibility of anyone who claims such a thing.The phrase "duluk-as-shams" defined as "sunset" / setting of the sun / the sun became high, by Lane.
I simply chose a meaning that results in the utmost logic, coherence, practicality and clarity, and asked others to find a flaw/error in this understanding.
I will add another, it also results in symmetry of timings.
But I am partly to blame as I never clarified it DIRECTLY in my article and simply linked to an article which explained it further. I should have known some people wouldn't bother reading up on it before attempting to criticise. I may have to include that info directly at some point.
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Now you say they are not in order, meaning that Point 3 was randomly put there refering to an "understanding" that hasn't been laid out yet ? That seems like a flaw to me isn't it ?
Hasn't been laid out? It's in the first paragraph of the article!
Original
Overwhelming evidence from The Quran suggests the regular/timed salat of the mumineen/believers is a minimum of twice daily, with an optional night vigil. The evidence and timings for this are as follows
In any case I have updated the article and added the words in red to help clarify for you and others
Overwhelming evidence from The Quran suggests the regular/timed salat of the mumineen/believers is a minimum of twice daily, with an optional night vigil. The evidence and timings for this understanding are as follows, listed in no particular order
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peace jkhan,
I appreciate you trying to critique, but can you make one point at a time?Also please ensure you have read my article carefully because you say things like this "But for waqas "ila ghashak AL Lail" and "zulafan minal AL lail" are identical.." which clearly shows you have mistaken my view.
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There's a lot of ambiguity with salat.
I agree with you in that the Quran seems to emphasis and name 2 salats.
I don't know if I agree with it being the minimum because there seems to be a call to do more or to perform salat if called upon it in preference over transactions,sports or distractions see 6210-11
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peace jkhan,
I appreciate you trying to critique, but can you make one point at a time?Also please ensure you have read my article carefully because you say things like this "But for waqas "ila ghashak AL Lail" and "zulafan minal AL lail" are identical.." which clearly shows you have mistaken my view.
Salam Waqas...
Brother I did read your article or not is immaterial .. Coz I have read the Quran and it has guided me about Salat .. In addition your claim of Two Salat is not new for me... Coz I have read all your articles... But I never was against what you write which is in line with Quran... Unfortunately not this time...
Regardless of whatever written in your article, the truth from your side is two salat is your acceptance..
That's why I question you...
For you 1778 and 11114 both Salat Isha... That's what you say with transperancy....
So brother... 11114 and 1778 is same for you coz even how much you try to say No, it won't work out.. Coz Isha Salat has a timing and that timing for you is 11114 and 1778... But how different both the verses you failed to grasp (How come one take the same Salat by both the verses while both verses entirely different). So what is the point of asking me better read your article or saying you've mistaken my view..
Truth is You have mistaken horribly the three Salat and stuck in it without being able to get out of it...I have given my knowledge of Quran to people... And it is not my intention to grab your 10$ ... Hope those who reflect would reflect...
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Anyhow.. I don't know whether you believe in Quran order of revelation... If you don't believe in, then bring a single error according to Quran order of revelation and how the verses revealed.. I assure you, you will never be able to indicate a single.. For example fasting... If God said fast in Quran that verse cannot be before the verse when to fast..(verse may be before if in same chapter but not in another chapter) coz all chapter has order of revelation...
Salam jkhan,
Can you elaborate further regarding "Quran order of revelation" that you mentioned here? Perhaps in separate thread in order not to mix with the topic in this thread.
Wassalam,
Ade -
Peace.. Everyone...
How can Duluki shams be called as time of Isha.. Even if you insist that Duluki shams = sunset... Is SUNSET equal to ISHA.... Boy.. That's a big lie against Arabs and pure Arabic language.... Do you belie language of Arabic? That's far worse than conventional people who took Isha at its proper time...
Pay attention to 11114 carefully...
According to waqas... Two ends are point of Sunrise and Sunset... So Isha Salat timing is sorted out as the moment sunset UNTILL whatever of their choice of darkness.. So moment of sunset is = Isha literally ... That's a blasphemy to quran.. Has it ever recorded in any Arabic dictionary OR even in Quran that moment of sunset is = Isha... Bring evidence...According to waqas the very starting point of Isha Salat (based on his research of both 1778 and11114) is Sunset,
Then logically the moment of salat Fajr undeniably Sunrise... thats incontrovertible... That's how TWO ENDs work out for waqas ... But unfortunately that's not the instructions of God... (That's why I always reiterate that TWO ENDs are TWO TWILIGHTS period... And From there, inwards to night period(Zulafan minal Lail) .. That's why while fasting, no sex after white thread at Fajr no food no drinks and not UNTILL sunrise... Huge difference is there with definition of Fajr and sunrise...Is Sunrise equal to FAJR... Is minute/s before sunrise called Fajr in Arabic... We got to go in line with Arabic and the nature where quran was revealed when it comes timing reference and not the north pole climate.. Will extreme north pole climate ever suite for fasting or Salat instructions throughout the year?
If one take the meaning TWO ends as point of SUNRISE and SUNSET then I am afraid they will be in great dilemma to figure out the time of Fajr.....
Question arise in this way...
** Do they have to wait till sunrise as indication for beginning or ending .. That's far from possibility...
** So in that case why they wait till sunset and immediately pray at the other End.. Isha...See how simple and how perfect if you take two ends are Two Twilights periods..
So instructions are very clear and undoubtedly befit to wording of Isha and Fajr in Arabic...
Two ends prayers are not in two twilights..... Both in the near parts (zulafan) of night... That's perfect period of Isha and Fajr in definition of Arabic ...
Your claim of Isha and Fajr never befits with wording of God and not the given time frame... And not even Arabic language... If one asked you to come at Isha, will you go and knock the door while sun setting? Lol.. You have to be none Arab to do that..
Use common sense in 2458 ... Instead of mentioning BEFORE FAJR salat permission, it is more befits before SUNRISE.. Coz last point of Fajr Salat according to you is sunrise... So kids needs to take permission before sunrise... Coz kids should know till sunrise parents are permitted to pray Fajr... So it is far better indication than before Fajr coz it's so manifest for kids coz no salat after sunrise .. So easy to confusion.. .
Meanwhile if one prayed Isha at the setting of sun then still full of light in the sky that is privacy period.. That's super bizzare... Nonsensical... reason of privacy is completely complicated by your timing brother waqas.. That doesn't befit according to the nature of where the quran was revealed.. At least there it takes 45-60 Minutes in summer...
Mid day privacy is basically coz of tiredness and heat ...but privacy of after isha and before Fajr may not be the same.. So kids worth asking permission...Note... "put aside your clothes" ... This is but SUMMER and not WINTER ...
So this verse will never befit for winter season... Coz it is very unlikely that people would REMOVE Clothes midday during Winter and rest. . That's very inhuman... Why I say so is... clothes removing is not at all mentioned for before Fajr and after Isha.. Not at all required to state..... Isn't it? ..
But specifically why mentioned removing clothes removal at midday as if they won't remove clothes after isha till Fajr?
It is crystal clear the purpose of removing clothes at midday is coz of Heat.. They may remove depend on each.. Even they may not remove... So no privacy.. Is clothe removal for sex then does God force them to have sex at midday ? No way... So Is it must to remove cloths since God ordered three privacy times? No way... If they don't remove then there is no harm / sin in them... It's normal time as other time...
But what about after isha and before Fajr? It is must privacy in my understanding... Kids taking permission is mandatory... And kids and parents mingling during this time is not even encouraged.. But for necessity with permission ....
Note the addition in the verse "There is no fault/sin/harm in you or them, apart from these (three times), that you go about one to the other..So had God mentioned in the verse 2458 as AFTER Salat Wusta privacy ... Too many confusions would have risen...
1..How Kids will judge that parents are having rest after Al Salat Al wusta OR without Salat... How even when they get up after rest they(kids) make sure that it is unrestricted time to mingle... Coz their only indication is Salat wusta if God mentioned so.. That's why it is not opted by God using salat... But other two Salat perfect... Before Fajr people in deep sleep and may be untidy with clothing... And after isha is of course night and needless to say.. And the time frame for both is very limited so kids will know by this time parents would have prayed.. So for after isha restrictions imposed and after Fajr restrictions lifted...
But it is impossible to use the word Salat for third privacy at midday.. So God rightly not used Salat ...2.. Had God mentioned after Salat wusta privacy.. Then it will become mandatory that they Pray First then rest or remove clothes.. That's far from the truth of the time frame given by verse 1778...
If anyone has doubt of order of Salat.. Note 2458 how orderly God stated..
God mentioned first Salat Fajr... That's the start of day... Then mid day privacy (note above why Salat cannot be indication)
Third isha Salat and the day ends...
God could have mentioned first isha Salat then midday and then Fajr... But not.. He knows what is the order... No need to confuse...Further if anyone has concern why the third Salat is called Wusta... Then my only answer is God has assigned two salat at twyo ENDs so the third Salat definitely befit between those two ENDs.. Coz it is clear according 2458 the Fajr Salat is first of the day...
Salat are Fajr > Wusta < Isha ...
Why wusta is emphasised.. Fajr and isha are falling in a more convenient time... Starting and end time... But wusta is falling busy time and vulnerable with worldly desires. .. It is not surprising why God revealed salat wusta first 1778...Thanks for reading..
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peace jkhan,
Rather than making baseless claims, I recommend actually citing some evidence.
How can Duluki shams be called as time of Isha.. Even if you insist that Duluki shams = sunset... Is SUNSET equal to ISHA.... Boy.. That's a big lie against Arabs and pure Arabic language.... Do you belie language of Arabic? That's far worse than conventional people who took Isha at its proper time...
Pay attention to 11114 carefully...
According to waqas... Two ends are point of Sunrise and Sunset... So Isha Salat timing is sorted out as the moment sunset UNTILL whatever of their choice of darkness.. So moment of sunset is = Isha literally ... That's a blasphemy to quran.. Has it ever recorded in any Arabic dictionary OR even in Quran that moment of sunset is = Isha... Bring evidence...Who knows Arabic language better jkhan or Arabic lexicons? Quote from lexicons
isha - commencement of darkness, early night, dusk, evening.
Fa-Jiim-Ra = ...dawn/sunrise/daybreak
That's how TWO ENDs work out for waqas ... But unfortunately that's not the instructions of God... (That's why I always reiterate that TWO ENDs are TWO TWILIGHTS period
That's what I'm saying! Quote from my article
salat al fajr / salat (of) the dawn/morning
As it's name suggests it is done around dawn (morning twilight). This can correctly be deemed one edge of the daytime and also involves a proximity of the night. Note that twilight is considered part of the night as per Quran.
To clarify this timed-salat begins at morning twilight and ends when any part of the sun first appears above the horizon (i.e. end of morning twilight)
salat al isha / salat (of) the dusk/evening
As it's name suggests it is done around dusk (evening twilight). This can correctly be deemed one edge of the daytime and also involves the proximites of the night. Note that twilight is considered part of the night as per Quran.
To clarify this timed-salat begins at evening twilight and ends with dark night (i.e. end of evening twilight).I never read the rest of your post, sorry, as I consider your critique quality thus far to be poor. Hence why I recommended one point at a time to make things easier.
