The lenght of the salat
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peace,
In my view the time-range given in the Quran means observe the salat from A to B. This time-range is the expected, the norm, the recommended, however the time-ranges are given as an exemplar/model to follow.
One has to ask oneself what is the purpose of the timed-salat of the mumineen? Is it's purpose going to be diminished by reducing it by 10mins? Some days one will do more some days less. I take 7320 as a guide also. -
Is there any verse that indicates that salat doesn't have to be performed from point A to point B? And the verse you mentioned is talking about the night standing. How do you see it in regards of the salat lenght? It's confusing now to me, because it seems like night prayer was obligate for all of them, but for some it was difficult and then God forgave them. Oh God, there is no end for my confusions &
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Remember also that "Li" can mean "at".
So, 1778 is saying At the decline of the sun that goes to Ghasaki Al Layl. Just like the rise of the sun starts at Ghsaki Al Leyl and carries on till Noon. Duluk Al Shams- the decline -starts at Noon and carries on till Ghasaki Al Leyl.
The sun rises from a minimum- Ghasaki Al Leyl- to a maxumun- Noon- then declines from the maximum to the minimum.
17;78 is saying Aquimi The Salat at Noon, because the sun starts to decline at Noon i.e it is identifying identifying a time of the start of the decline by Li Duluk Al Shams Ila Ghasaki Al Leyl. If the verse just said "Li Duluk Al Shams" one would ask which part of the decline?
Noon gives the time frame , like other verses, it does not give the lenght of the salat.
Why not?
This was discussed in the forum few days ago.What is The Salat and its details ( like lenght, preservation...) is another matter.
GOD bless .
Peace. -
And the verse you mentioned is talking about the night standing. How do you see it in regards of the salat lenght? It's confusing now to me, because it seems like night prayer was obligate for all of them, but for some it was difficult and then God forgave them. Oh God, there is no end for my confusions &
Please read chapter 73.
7320 does not use "forgive".
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/slw.htm
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Good logic, it's just not logical to me when I take all the verses about the salat that this dulook al shamsi means sun declining from the highest point in the noon.. Because other verses mention salatul isha by name and then there are 3 privacy times for the believers, the last one of them is after salatul isha.. So it just makes sense that this salat is from that close period before the sunset till darkness of the night. If it was said to pray from noon till the night, then it would be too long to perform this prayer..
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Peace. ilma_bee
Here is my view about "the Salat"..
If it does not make sense to you, fair enough. Like you I was confused and I spent years looking
There are different opinions on the Salat according to Qoran. It is either Zero, 2 , 3, or 5. The debates have been many and the views remain the same.
Here is my latest reply to this subject if you are interested
This subject has been running on this forum and on multiple other forums for years.
I have read thousands of views ,most claiming they have an answer to
1- Salat according to Qoran, its timing, contents and objective.First let me make a clear statement to do with minimum salvation,as this is important for our priority
I see the deen as a state of mind. A mind that is in tune / in a relation with GOD the creator and respects all the creation. A mind that follows the Sirat Al Mustaqueen as defined in 6{151-153.}
"Inna Deen Inda Allah Al Islam" and "Ihdina Tariq Al Mustaqueem"
It is also a choice. "La Ikraha Fi Deen" .GOD does not force this deen on anyone.
Fa Man Chaa Fal Umin Wa Man Chaa Falyakfur?"Whoever want to believe...and whoever want to disbelieve."If one wants to become a Muslim ,then they should have no objection to following the best path instructed by GOD in Qoran, if they claim to follow Qoran/believe in it.
GOD does not expect people to pretend or to force themselves to do things they do not like or agree with. It is better if they were honest with themselves and only did things that make sense to them or things that they agree with.
That is better in the sight of GOD.
There is nothing wrong with having a private debate with GOD about all your doubts. GOD is listening.
If you want to take a journey with GOD .it is private and very personal between you and your creator.If you want to go it alone or rely on others that is also your freedom of choice.. But you are accountable for having the faculties(eyes ears and brain) GOD gave you to use. If one misuses them they have only themselves to blame.
For me it is a no brainer. I do not see a way out except back to GOD at the end.
So by choice and I am glad I realised this. I willingly decline my "Amana" other choice. I submit to the Lord of the universe and seek his friendship, light and guidance direct .
I do not see any problems with following the best path from Qoran s instruction. GOD has made his deen easy once the trial period of "making the decision" to enter into an agreement with the creator is over After all ,GOD will want to "try you" if you mean it or not!!!.
Of course my human instinct is fighting this surrender daily but I cannot go back on my covenant/agreement .In short we are free but people make a problem for themselves by conforming to things they doubt or do not make sense to them.
Your decision alone is required ,nobody else will bare your burden whether you rely on them or not.
GOD guides and teaches all the true believers.Coming back to "The Salat" , I have spent years investigating many views, especially those views from the specific "Qoran alone" brothers and sistyers. All asking " where can I find how and when to do "The Salat" from Qoran?. Yet after giving their views most fail to find the meaning and details of their claims using Qoran, which they were asking the exact thing in the first place.
The only exception that had a solid argument that was coherent and used all Qoran in context about "the salat" was this-according to my research-
https//submission.org/Where_can_we_find_Salah.htmlThe questions from everyone will keep coming about "The salat like
I wonder if someone has no limbs ,how they going to do it?.
I wonder if someone has an emergency to attend or forgets... , how are they going to do it?.
I wonder if someone is on the moon, how are they going to do it.?
I wonder if someone is at the north pole, how are they going to do it?
...etc.
All these have been taken care of in Qoran, if one is not capable or enable to be on earth or...Then they are excused. They do it in their head if they can or not at all. GOD is forgiver most merciful.The deen is not about rules and regulations ,it is about intentions , good morals and good work first and foremost.
The other helping items are there for the ones that can.. Each needs to follow GOD s instructions to the best of their abilities.
We cannot fool GOD or look for excuses. GOD is aware of each one of us . whether we are capable, where we are and whether we hear and obey him .
Or do you think we are left without GOD distinguishing our honesty and true intentions? Therefore you do what you can to the best of your knowledge!"The Salat" , sawm, Zakat, ...etc are a helping hand from GOD to grow our souls more for thiose who wish to come even closer to GOD.
Our views, can only look "without errors" to us, Each thinking that their " cleverness and logic of their Qoran study" has worked.
GOD s logic is not our logic, that is why GOD keeps sending messengers.
Is there more to come from Qoran?
I will say yes ,until GOD decides the end for all of us
If you want to do "the salat" search for your own version or carry on with what you have. You have the means to decide for yourself..
By the way brother I also do 5 per day.
GOD bless you.
Peace -
Peace
Coming back to what you say here,quote
.."If it was said to pray from noon till the night, then it would be too long to perform this prayer"If you read again my first post you will see that I calarified the Salat was to be done at Noon only , the start of the decline that goes towards ghasaky Al leyl.., the time frame is Noon period and not from Noon to dark. You misunderstood me .1778 is not giving us the lenght of the Salat. GOD is precise with words. As for time frame the Arabic would have been " Bayna duluk Al Shams Wa ghasaki Al Leyl- not what 1778 said.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
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Wakas, I did check now again. Yes, it uses the word Tabe.. Could you please share your thoughts on this verse, how you see it (because you said you use it as a guide)..
My understanding of salat
I meant that 7320 mentions variable timings and if we cannot manage then says "so read/recite what is easy of it". The night vigil is optional anyway but to me this indicates that having a variable timing is not a big deal.
Also bear in mind
From http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/salat-timings-Quran.htmlThe reason why this minimum of two timings works in all parts of the world is that the only plural address which mentions a timed-salat is 2458 (11114 and 1778 are in the singular address). In 2458 a morning salat (salat al fajr) and evening salat (salat al isha) are mentioned. The sun is not explicitly/directly mentioned. This is important because in some parts of the world the sun may not appear above or below the horizon for part of the year. Please research countries within the Arctic circle and polar day and polar night for further information. No matter where one is in the world all societies have a morning (activity/working period) and evening time (sleep/rest period). Of course this would mean there is no set time-range for each salat in this scenario, which is not a problem in my view, and the morning and evening time-ranges in Quran can be taken as exemplars/models to follow.
If something is not explicit then I cannot say more than I have said. I personally do not see an issue with a variable time-range within the recommended time-range, sometimes doing more, sometimes less etc.
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I'm just scared that if I do less than what is written or recommended as you say, that maybe it would be reducing from salat..just like in the verse where it says it's ok to reduce from it while in fear. So I'm affraid if not in fear, then it has to be full. Actually what scares me is the difficulty in performing this daily, and struggling in many situations.. I guess there is no solution for my problem..
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My understanding...
****** 7320 is not talking about Salat (Ritual prayer) at all
***** 7320 order of revelation is well before Ritual Salat ordered.. It is one of the earliest of chapters.. Order of revelation = 03
**** but first Salat was ordered..chapter 50... No salat until 50 chapters revealed... Coz QURAN was revealed gradually... Agree or not...
**** 7320 is reciting quran probably for memorizing... Chapter starts with "O you who wraps himself, Arise the night, except for a little...... ..." this doesn't befit for Salat if night start at the setting sun...
***** further some people totally confused about verse 1778 .... It never orders to pray the entire period... That's beyond human capacity in a daily basis... Even you take it Meridian or Sunset....
Take example from Quran as comparison as capacity.... God allows in 2187 to have sex with wife in Nights of Fasting....
Does it mean we have have to practice sex entire night... Coz God said night... So night is night... Not day... That's not possible.. That also every night of fasting... That is only an instruction...its our duty at what part of night and how long...**** second thing in the same verse God says eat and drink UNTIL white thread of Fajr.. ... Does that mean we have to keep on eating UNTIL Fajr since God told in the verse.. That's so common sense... Coz to fast we need to eat and drink.... It befits according to our own way.... If you feel that late dinner would do... That's fine... If you feel having a shy at 12 or 1 am... Thats fine...but if anyone feels at the last moment having food.. That's also fine... God has given a time not to exceed that time and not to keep eating UNTIL fajr white thread.. If anyone take them literally that's what people should do... It's not God's instruction.
Same way..1778 AT Maridean TO ghashak Lail doesn't mean we have to keep praying uninterrupted... Timing is given and it is with our convenience... No hardship...
The problem here some take it as office timing... Work from 900 am to 400 pm...
But they have forgotten how many such examples that is not constant...
For example if the instruction is you can visit doctor 9 am to 4 pm... Does it mean we have to come sharp at 9 and leave at 4....that's bizarre..For constant timing best example is fasting...
God put it in a very meticulous way...
2187 It is indirectly says don't eat and drink once the white thread of Fajr appears... Then says COMPLETE the abstinence (ila) TO night...
That's Undeniablely a constant and uninterrupted timing period....Btw... If God said in 1778 establish Salat li Duluki shams and COMPLETE Ila Lail... Then it is well and truly continuous act within that time frame... Fortunately that's not what God orders...
**** even the example presented wash your foot and hands to the ankle and elbows respectively is meaningless....
Coz we can start washing hands from any point... But we have to make sure hands are washed to elbow... Or below elbow every part is washed... Isn't it.. Same for foot..Unless START and COMPLETE words are used.. Start from certain point and complete at certain point...
God bless us
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Peace
You say quote
"Good logic, I'm not a brother ;D lol
Anyway, are you saying that this ila ghasaqi leyli means towards the night? Like, pray at the noon (which goes) towards the night. I'm not sure if that word can have that meaning. So when would this prayer time end?"First , my apology, The "brother" was in the post I pasted from an earlier answer to "the Salat" in another thread.. Sorry sister.
Now The Salat time frames are windows/parts of day/night that are clearly recognised worldwide.
Noon is a lunchtime period of approxomately few hours, like fajr, Icha, Maghrib...etc. They are windows for the salat.and clear identified parts of day/night . 9say between 12 and 2.00pm in UK for example)
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
I'm just scared that if I do less than what is written or recommended as you say, that maybe it would be reducing from salat..just like in the verse where it says it's ok to reduce from it while in fear. So I'm affraid if not in fear, then it has to be full. Actually what scares me is the difficulty in performing this daily, and struggling in many situations.. I guess there is no solution for my problem..
Salam ilma_bee,
Muslim and Mukmin are two different groups of people.
The Nomads said “We believe.” Say “You have not believed; but you should say ‘We have submitted;’ until belief enters into your hearts.” And if you obey God and His messenger, He will not put any of your works to waste. God is Forgiver, Merciful.
Mukmin is performing at higher level than Muslim.
Believers are those who believe in God and His messenger, then they became without doubt, and they strive with their money and their lives in the cause of God. These are the truthful ones.
And accordingly the reward is doubled for those who perform at Mukmin level.
And if it is recited to them, they say “We believe in it. It is the truth from our Lord. Indeed, we had submitted before it.”
To these We grant twice the reward for that they have been patient. And they counter evil with good, and from Our provisions to them, they give.God has purchased from the believers their very lives and their wealth, that they will have Paradise; they fight in the cause of God—so they kill and are killed—a promise that is true upon Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur’an. And whoever fulfills this pledge with God, then have good news of the pledge which you are concluded with. Such is the great triumph.
And one of the requirements to be performing at Mukmin level is as per 4103.
Once you are done with the Salat, then remember God while standing, or sitting, or on your sides. Then, when you are secure, hold the Salat. Indeed, the Salat for the believers is a book that is scheduled.
Overall, just do our best and let God decide at what level we are performing. At the end of the day, if one is finally saved, then it is already great victory!
Those who carry the Throne and all those surrounding it glorify the praise of their Lord, and believe in Him, and they seek forgiveness for those who have believed “Our Lord, You encompass all things with mercy and knowledge, so forgive those who repented and followed Your path, and spare them the agony of Hell.”
“Our Lord, and admit them into gardens of delight which You had promised for them and for those who did good of their fathers, their spouses, and their progeny. You are the Noble, the Wise.”
“And save them from the sins. And whoever You save from the sins, on that Day, You have granted him mercy. And such is the great triumph.”Wassalam,
Ade -
Ade, thank you. Still, my problem is there..that how will I implement salat in my everyday life, in cases when It's inconvenient for any reason. If I shorten it, maybe He will not forgive. If I pray it later, maybe it will not be forgiven, if I try to try to pray full (2 hours) then this will be hardship every time..and just all of this is like living a hell. Because you live in a insecurity of God's punishment..
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Ade, thank you. Still, my problem is there..that how will I implement salat in my everyday life, in cases when It's inconvenient for any reason. If I shorten it, maybe He will not forgive. If I pray it later, maybe it will not be forgiven, if I try to try to pray full (2 hours) then this will be hardship every time..and just all of this is like living a hell. Because you live in a insecurity of God's punishment..
Dear Sister...
Who told you to pray 2 hours constantly dear... No worries... Your concern and thaqwa and belief is well known to God.... He will guide you in sha Allah....
Salat has fixed timing .. That's undeniable...... But God has never prescribed a length for Salat.. Better you benefit more you glorify God... It doesn't mean Salat 20 times a day... That's against God's timing.. Hope you get me...
Note the below verse... We can derive certain Advices to our lives in general ...4142 "Indeed, the hypocrites deceive Allah , but He is deceiving them. And when they stand for prayer, they stand lazily, showing the people and not remembering Allah except a little,"
Yes.... Above verse speaks about Munafiq... People may give various explanation who in fact these Munafiqs(Hypocrites) are ... In my understanding, somehow they do all what believers do but pure intention of mind is so weak... The above verse itself depict some of their characteristics ... 1 ... laziness in doing ... 2 ... showing off to people ... 3 .... Remembering God a little... 4.... They deceive themselves...
Now what we have to take out of this where we stand from these strange people...
1....Are we lazy in doing or following any of our act when it comes to belief .....
2... Are our intentions in all acts to show people so that we are well reckoned in the eyes and words of people...
3 ..... Do we remember God a little in any for form of remembrance every day... Be it salat or general zikr or sabih... Do we do a little or maximum to our capacity... That's key... Not beyond our capacity but not less to our capacity... Less than our capacity is little.. Little is a sign of hypocrisy...
4.... Do we deceive ourselves in the name of God... Every individual knows that..When it comes to Salat all you need to do is once you done 56 instructions and 1778 and 11114(for time) , the below in standing position ....
17110-111 Say, "Call upon Allah or call upon the Most Merciful. Whichever you call - to Him belong the best names." And do not recite loudly in your prayer or quietly but seek between that an way. And say, "Praise to Allah , who has not taken a son and has had no partner in dominion and has no protector out of weakness; and glorify/magnify Him with glorification...
Keep magnifying God as much as your heart allows you with any beautiful phrases and verses.. Then submit and finish... That's all... That's Salat....
That's your daily standard as long as you are free... But you can shorten what you do daily if you are in Fear...how much you shorten is absolutely in your hand... Depends on each individual's situation.. 4101...
Further Salat has no length assigned by God, but only the fixed timing to do within that period with our own convenience.. . If anyone says salat has length that is only his or her whimsical or rather impulsive approach wittingly or unwittingly .unfortunately .. That doesn't befit to any human being in his or her day to day activities.... God knows human nature... Those who claim Salat has length won't even follow what they preach.. That's for sure..
May God guide us to straight path
