Was Moses in Egypt?????

Layth

Dear TF,

Yes and no to what you have said.

We should always be weary of the devil diverting us and letting us create new idols, yet, at the same time, we are commanded by 1736 not to uphold what we have not been able to verify.

There is no absolute wrong idea until we have allowed all avenues of an idea to be explored and debated - the truth can withstand extended scrutiny.

For example, sujood is physical in some instances when done by humans in the Quran. However, it is not physical when the stars or trees or even angels do it (hence the idea has merit and debate).

Also, fasting is both for a number of days and a month - depending on the reader seeing 2 separate fasts or 1 single fast in the verses.

The prophet is called Ahmed, but also Mohammed - which allows a deeper look at the historic character and where he was from.

Abraham left part of his progeny at the restricted House to guide people, yet Lot is from Abraham’s progeny (so is this about Lot or Ismail or Isaac)?

God refers to the House, the ancient House, and the restricted House...are they the same?

God refers to Bakka and Mecca...are they the same?

God refers to the restricted Tenple and the farthest Temple...are they the same?

God calls all people to pilgrimage, yet the restricted Temple is closed off to idolaters?

The list goes on, but the idea is that everything is debatable as long as we don’t create idols of these ideas and put them above God.

We only fail if we stop challenging our own understanding and cease to search for truth.

This life is about serving God and only God.

tutti_frutti

salam layth

hope you are doing well

my opinions

there are not many ways, there is one way in sens that ramadan is either some days or a month, prayer is either physical or not etc. we should strive to find it yes, but not by interpeting where there should be no interpretation. i believe the Quran is to be taken at face value.

prayer - yes existence submits to The God the moon is in an orbit and its phases are layed out and it does other things like regulate tides, the sun lightens the earth is in an orbit and sends energy to earth, the trees grow and provide oxygen and others things etc etc all creation follows the order and purpose that it has been created for. humans have been given the choice and we should obey The God. within those commands is to prostrate physically. The God mentions specific salats (evening (sunset to susk and throughout the night) and fajr) and on the day of gathering.

if salat were to just obey Him, why name the salats? are we not supposed to obey Him all the time? The God also says to bow down with those who bow (surah 2 verse 43)

The God also tells us to not be loud or too quiet in our prayers but in between, and to say what is said in verse 111 of surah 17. He also tells us those who seek forgiveness before dawn. so for me its clear, prayer is to bow and fall to our faces and supplicate Him for forgiveness and guidance

abraham mentions that The God gave him isaac and ishmael (and jacob as well perhaps as grandson). he never mentions that The God gave him lot. The God tells us that abaraham says he put of his progeny in the restricted temple to pray, and there is also a verse in the Quran where The God tells us that ishmael used to push his kin to prayer. so for me it was clear ishmael was in the restricted temple and not lot (if i remember well there is a verse where The God mentions that there is peace in the restricted temple whilst lot’s city was destroyed although maybe city destroyed but temple remained intact)
the farthest mosque for me could maybe mean limi of the tree of the outmost boundary (limit of the tree ie something like the cosmic tree that all religions have example yggdrasil) i think The God permitted the prophets and messengers to go to the outmost boundary near which there is paradise (but they have not seen paradise i believe) in order to witness the creation and strengthen their beliefs.

i am not yet knowledgeable about the restricted or ancient temple issue and mecca bakka (although i believe it is not mecca in saudi arabia but perhaps the monastery in petra) once i forge an understanding on that matter ill revert to you.

The God says whoever witnesses the month let him fast IT, not fast a part of it or within it or whatever an answer for ramadan is in surah 53. and from surah 106 i think hajj is in summer and winter so ramadan is other than that. (unless restricted months are consecutive and hajj is in a restricted month)
regarding ahmed and mohammed i do not have an opinion on it yet apart perhaps in area and language of jesus (hebrew? aramaic?) mohammed is mentioned as ahmed just like yusuf is jospeh
i am not knowledgeable yet about the issue with all mankind invited to restricted temple but not idolators, but why would idolators go to the restricted temple that is dedicated to The God?

to conlclude, in my opinion the Quran should be read as a whole and taken at face value. example when The God says He made pigs and apes from humans well He literally did that (that is why apes and pigs are very similar to humans and why pork is forbidden) so we should maybe read the Quran and stop interpreting left and right

i may be wrong allll along the line lol but i take the Quran at face value

peace

jkhan

Peace...
I do agree with Huruf with certain points what she claims... Coz it was her choice after perceiving ... I don't like to call Egypt since there is no Egypt in Quran.. let's keep as Misr (however it is pronounced).. But I don't agree with her that Misr being only a city... Misr according to Quran is a well planned country which has a city and and surrounded with rivers and agriculture and farming... A perfect nation...
If you go through all the occurences of Misr in Quran that you can't deny that unless blinded.. Misr was called as Kingdom as well...

4351 " And Pharaoh called out among his people; he said, "O my people, does not the kingdom of Misr (Mulk Misr)belong to me, and these rivers flowing beneath me; then do you not see?"
No need to call kingdom of city.. Unless one thinks so.. Even verse 261 is a great nation which produces all fruits..

King pharoa can't simply rule a huge City.. He needs the resources reaching to his city.. That's not inside the city but outside... So it's a massive kingdom ... Being the ruling place in a huge city.. That's Misr... So it can merely mean a massive city as well as the whole kingdom that massive city belongs to... Kings were not ruling only cities... They rule nations of kingdoms..

Read carefully all Misr verses within the context..

Next point is location in our current world...

I don't think it matters much like it matters where is masjid Al haram or ancient house or where Muhamed lived... Coz people claim Mohamed lived in current Day makka so they keep circumnavigate or rather rounding allegedly called ancient house. So that's worth a research than musa.

Okay any how.. Question is before knowing, Was Musa from Misr, better to know who was Musa?
Can anyone say who was He? That's it...

One thing to note is Rome is Rome still Misr is Misr .... Can anyone change the location of Rome? Then why to change Misr..
Musa was everywhere... wasn't he?
** He is one of those who fought to deliver Children of Israel...so he has connection with Israel.. Where is Israel? Fair question right...
** Musa was in Midean at least 8 years... Where was Midean? Not far from where he escaped... Isn't it? At least outside pharoa's control.. Coz old man called musa "you are safe here"
** And musa was in Misr 10"87..
So did he live only in Misr..?

Aren't these places all close-by that Musa could manageby..
If anyone claim it is Yemen current days the southern peninsula of Arabia then all above three locations should be in very close proximity to Yemen..
Before Quran many glaring books were revealed.. So all those should be concerned with Yemen..
But Romans were in Yemen and remnants are still there though not in Makka . But previous scripture holders have no concerns of Yemen but areas of Jordan Israel lebonan etc. Area.. Why they neglected Yemen if their ancestors connected to Yemen..

No more comments.. There is truth.. Perceive it...

@ TF.. I won't agree with your emotions.. Let people search and debate.. Don't worry God will guide whoever deserves.. If guided they cannot have chosen the wrong path... No guidance with wrong path..
God knows the guided ones.. You can't take quran at face value in everything.. . Explore and let God guide if God wills and if He doesn't then that's the end of right path..

Unless you know truth without doubt argue with it till you get convinced by others view.. Afterall you are totally in a confused state as per what you have written above.. Then why you try to stop others being exploring and presenting their view.. Right and wrong is always clear to the guided ones and God knows them..
Peace...

Wakas

peace Layth,

Nice to see you posting again.

God refers to the House, the ancient House, and the restricted House...are they the same?

God refers to the restricted Tenple and the farthest Temple...are they the same?

God calls all people to pilgrimage, yet the restricted Temple is closed off to idolaters?

Have you read these articles

What is the meaning of al masjid al haram according to The Quran?
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html

What is "al hajj" according to The Quran?
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-hajj-Quran.html

good_logic

Peace All.
Those who are doing the rounds with subjects from Qoran will notice that some subjects will stay interpreted differently depending on where the "logic / understanding/search/. of the individual.." lies.
Bringing "proofs" can also be pointless, because the past can never be brought with it. So it is each to their proof/fact/...

As for history ,well what can one say ,except there is some history that is agreed on by many but still disputed by others. The devil can sometimes be in the details. And this is where we differ. Can humans tell lies? Of course they can. Can humans distort the truth? Of course they can.. Can history be written and controlled by the "Victors" ? Of course it can.... And so on.

So how are we to check/ use 1736 on many subjects and issues of the past? Why did Qoran only deal with certain people and sometimes left some details out? One can only say Qoran is not a history book but a message. I will come to my point at the end of this post.

For example if one tried to search Moses history and came up to this
https//www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/73398/jewish/Moses.htm

Do they believe all of it? Is there any distortions/?...etc.

One can use Qoran to chreck, some details agree but others differ...Then we move on to another side of the same story like for example
https//www.ancient-origins.net/history-famous-people/moses-0012411

And so forth....One can compare /analyse...But still little issues will arise. So what is the solution that gets us to the truth?

This is where I go back to my earlier point that Qoran is a message not a history book first and formost.
What is the message that will unite all its students?
I say it is the call to "Sirat Al Mustaqueem". Qoran has come to unite us on this very important path so that we can live in peace and harmony with each other ,now in our present time.

As for other subjects ,like this one, it does not matter an iota who is right or wrong. The lesson of Moses will give us the motivation to better our lives not where he was or the exact location of the people and place.

Thise who have the truth should be to their own satisfaction,not others. They can only share it ,not ram it down throats..
Brothers and sisters, discuss by all means, but remain united and do not divide because of issues that do not matter.
Yes of course bring in your views, you are all welcome.
GOD bless you all.
Peace.

tutti_frutti

salam jkhan

i am not saying people should not debate. on the contrary i think we most definately should

what i am saying is that we should not start interpreting and trying to be different from mainstream for the sake of being different (thats my debate lol)

example prayer The God me tions specific prayers and tells us not to be too loud or quiet. He also tells us to bow with those who bow. why start saying salat is not physical and interpreting and all. is it not salat is physical non?

or ramadan, He tells us to fast IT, so is it not clear it is the month?

or when He says people’s faces look to the sky and as such to face the restricted temple. is it not clear too it is a physical place? and that abtaham and ishmail laid its foundations.

i am not confused i have my opinions i just do not want to say things that could misguide in case i am wrong and as such i say that i could be wrong lol

so yeah let us definately debate i am just saying (debating ) ) we should not innovate just to be different especially where the words are clear

peace

Wakas

or when He says people’s faces look to the sky and as such to face the restricted temple. is it not clear too it is a physical place? and that abtaham and ishmail laid its foundations.

It seems you are equating al masjid al haram and al bayt. What is your evidence for that?

tutti_frutti

salam wakas

perhaps the house is a generic term and the masjid al Haram is the name of the house. non?

in any case for me its a bit obvious the place is physical
all i am saying is i feel like people here try sooo hard to be different from mainstream for the sake of being different

peace

Wakas

peace tf,

I have seen many claim it should be understood how it is commonly understood (i.e. same as your view it seems) but they are silent when it comes to answering some basic questions I have asked over the years.
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran-2196-critical-thinking.html
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-quran.html
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-hajj-Quran.html

In fact I do not recall anyone who has answered the issues/questions in the above articles. Some answer bits here and there but that's about it. On this forum I have created threads for each article so you can read what others say in them.

good_logic

peace tutti_frutti.
My understaniding from Qoran is that Abraham was given a task with instructions from GOD to take part of his family ( Likely Ishmael and family) to a physical place and build a sanctuary for GOD Alone commemoration for all monotheists from Al Naas

"Our Lord, I have settled part of my family in this plantless/Arrid valley, at Your -Baytica Al Muharram- Sacred House. Our Lord, they are to observe the Salat, so let throngs of people converge upon them, and provide for them all kinds of fruits, that they may be appreciative.
رَبَّنا إِنّى أَسكَنتُ مِن ذُرِّيَّتى بِوادٍ غَيرِ ذى زَرعٍ عِندَ بَيتِكَ المُحَرَّمِ رَبَّنا لِيُقيمُوا الصَّلوٰةَ فَاجعَل أَفـِٔدَةً مِنَ النّاسِ تَهوى إِلَيهِم وَارزُقهُم مِنَ الثَّمَرٰتِ لَعَلَّهُم يَشكُرونَ

This Abraham and Ishmael did somewhere as these verses explain further

Surely, those who disbelieve and repulse others from the path of God, and from the -Masjid Al Haram-Sacred Masjid that we designated for all the people - be they natives or visitors - and seek to pollute it and corrupt it, we will afflict them with painful retribution.
إِنَّ الَّذينَ كَفَروا وَيَصُدّونَ عَن سَبيلِ اللَّهِ وَالمَسجِدِ الحَرامِ الَّذى جَعَلنٰهُ لِلنّاسِ سَواءً العٰكِفُ فيهِ وَالبادِ وَمَن يُرِد فيهِ بِإِلحادٍ بِظُلمٍ نُذِقهُ مِن عَذابٍ أَليمٍ

Abraham was following GOD s instructions

We appointed Abraham to establish the Beyt( Shrine) "You shall not idolize any other god beside Me, and purify My Beyt- (shrine) for those who visit it, those who live near it, and those who bow and prostrate.
وَإِذ بَوَّأنا لِإِبرٰهيمَ مَكانَ البَيتِ أَن لا تُشرِك بى شَيـًٔا وَطَهِّر بَيتِىَ لِلطّائِفينَ وَالقائِمينَ وَالرُّكَّعِ السُّجودِ
"And proclaim that the people shall observe Hajj . They will come to you walking or riding on various exhausted (means of transportation). They will come from the farthest locations."
وَأَذِّن فِى النّاسِ بِالحَجِّ يَأتوكَ رِجالًا وَعَلىٰ كُلِّ ضامِرٍ يَأتينَ مِن كُلِّ فَجٍّ عَميقٍ
They may seek commercial benefits, and they shall commemorate God's name during the specified days for providing them with livestock. "Eat therefrom and feed the despondent and the poor."
لِيَشهَدوا مَنٰفِعَ لَهُم وَيَذكُرُوا اسمَ اللَّهِ فى أَيّامٍ مَعلومٰتٍ عَلىٰ ما رَزَقَهُم مِن بَهيمَةِ الأَنعٰمِ فَكُلوا مِنها وَأَطعِمُوا البائِسَ الفَقيرَ
They shall complete their obligations, fulfill their vows, and visit the-Beyt Al Atik-( ancient shrine).
ثُمَّ ليَقضوا تَفَثَهُم وَليوفوا نُذورَهُم وَليَطَّوَّفوا بِالبَيتِ العَتيقِ
Those who reverence the rites decreed by God have deserved a good reward at their Lord. All livestock is made lawful for your food, except for those specifically prohibited for you. You shall avoid the abomination of idol worship, and avoid bearing false witness.
ذٰلِكَ وَمَن يُعَظِّم حُرُمٰتِ اللَّهِ فَهُوَ خَيرٌ لَهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَأُحِلَّت لَكُمُ الأَنعٰمُ إِلّا ما يُتلىٰ عَلَيكُم فَاجتَنِبُوا الرِّجسَ مِنَ الأَوثٰنِ وَاجتَنِبوا قَولَ الزّورِ
You shall maintain your devotion absolutely to God alone. Anyone who sets up any idol beside God is like one who fell from the sky, then gets snatched up by vultures, or blown away by the wind into a deep ravine.
حُنَفاءَ لِلَّهِ غَيرَ مُشرِكينَ بِهِ وَمَن يُشرِك بِاللَّهِ فَكَأَنَّما خَرَّ مِنَ السَّماءِ فَتَخطَفُهُ الطَّيرُ أَو تَهوى بِهِ الرّيحُ فى مَكانٍ سَحيقٍ
Indeed, those who reverence the rites decreed by God demonstrate the righteousness of their hearts.
ذٰلِكَ وَمَن يُعَظِّم شَعٰئِرَ اللَّهِ فَإِنَّها مِن تَقوَى القُلوبِ

The questions that various members are debating are
Is this beyt a physical or abstract place or both?
If physical, where is it?
What is Hajj?
...etc.
For me it is clear this is a phydical place where people live or visit, commemorate GOD and gather together in a specific GOD Alone sacred Masjid to remember GOD and give thanks for what He provided and spend some specific days doing this as a rite.
There may be some abstract/spiritual meaning as well and benefit to the soul in doing this..
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Layth

Salam TF,

i am not saying people should not debate. on the contrary i think we most definately should

what i am saying is that we should not start interpreting and trying to be different from mainstream for the sake of being different (thats my debate lol)

Why did you assume that people here debate ideas so they can be different from the mainstream?

The mainstream of people do not even believe in God (see 12103), while the mainstream of those who believe are idolaters (See 12106)

example prayer The God mentions specific prayers and tells us not to be too loud or quiet. He also tells us to bow with those who bow. why start saying salat is not physical and interpreting and all. is it not salat is physical non?

I have never said that. I simply point out that we must be open to people who have different views in-case we have made a mistake in our understanding. For example, if you see Salat as a physical "prayer", then how will you reconcile 95 which tells us that if the idolaters/mushrikeen uphold the Salat, then we are to no longer fight them?

Will you force a person to pray when the Quran gives full freedom of worship and expression?

It is this lack of understanding or challenging tradition meanings that has created satanic "Islamic" nations that beat people to attend prayer and cut off hands and heads...

or ramadan, He tells us to fast IT, so is it not clear it is the month?

And did you read the verses before this verse (see 2183-184) which talks about people fasting "for a limited number of days" as was decreed for "those before"?

You have assumed that its a full month based on a) tradition, b) not noticing the other verses on the subject.

I can argue here that "Ramadhan" in 2185 is a separate fast from 2183-184. I can also argue that the "limited number of days" occurs within the month of Ramadhan (just like the days of Hajj occur within the 4 restricted months)...

or when He says people’s faces look to the sky and as such to face the restricted temple. is it not clear too it is a physical place? and that abtaham and ishmail laid its foundations.

I did not say it was not physical - but you have made an assumption (like the traditionalists) that Abraham and Ismail raised the foundations of this restricted Temple (actually, they say the Kaaba/Bayt and not the Temple). Was there only one Bayt? If so, then why does God refer to the Bayt in Bakka as the "first" (see 396).

i am not confused i have my opinions i just do not want to say things that could misguide in case i am wrong and as such i say that i could be wrong lol

so yeah let us definately debate i am just saying (debating ) we should not innovate just to be different especially where the words are clear

Actually, you are saying things that misguide because you maybe repeating the falsehoods that have been taught without subjecting them to the scrutiny of 1736.

Also, I would remind that the Quran is not a normal textbook...It can totally misguide those who view it through distorted eyes - look at the mess that has been made by "Islamic" states based on their mishmash of what they think the Quran says.

We must seek God to unlock our hearts and minds when reading His words (see 625), and we must always remember that the Quran does have verses which are clear, but others which require deeper study (see 37)

Layth

peace Layth,

Nice to see you posting again.

Have you read these articles

What is the meaning of al masjid al haram according to The Quran?
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html

What is "al hajj" according to The Quran?
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-hajj-Quran.html

Salam Wakas.

Great to see you brother...

Must be the lockdown...I have better energy to write again )

I have had a look at the 2 links.

The Hajj article I agree with to an extent - though not that its location can be changed.

As for the Masjid Al-Haram, I skipped to the summary and saw that its not being viewed as a physical place?

jkhan

Peace TF..

So your debate is MAINSTREAM.. Who are they? Why you worry about them as if they have founded the truth.. Why people should go hand in hand with so called mainstream.. Why you decided so? Do you think they are guided so that we should discard views of others and not differentiate from them so we would be guided aright... Or is it just for the sake of keeping peace by having to go inline with them..

Next point.. Salat..
Yes salat is physical as well Salat has many other meaning..
Why you worry about those who say Salat is not prayer? Just debate within Quran that Salat is prayer and it is physical and verbal ... 'Bow with those who bow... ' .. Why do you say it is Salat.. Does QURAN teaches you so.. If so bring evidence? Get clear picture of raakiun by verse 555 OR any other rakiun verses before respond to me...

Next concern.. Ramadhan and fasting and one month...
You seems to be agreeing one month as per yasummuhu (fast it)..
Fine fast it.. BUT
Is it must to fast anyway?
Do we not go to Janna if we don't fast... Is there any warning from God so..
If there is no month called ramadhan among Arabs, which month would you fast? Why you think that God asked us to fast in Arabic month... While God has not mentioned any names for months in Quran .. While He has restricted 04 months from the day He created... So are those restricted months only Arabic.. Or common..
Fasting prescribed as it was prescribed to those before you... So were they fasting in calender month Arabic... Or they were fasting as it was prescribed for them.. Or do they need to leave all those practices and fast according to Arabic month ramadhan.. While we are told prescribed for you fasting as those before you..
Isn't the verse 2187 addressing mainly previous people as they were wronging themselves by doing sex in the nights of fasting, while fasting only prescribed to the people of Quran with that very verse..
At the time of revelation of Quran there were scriptures revealed by God and fully preserved.. "Bring Torah and recite to me" is useless unless it was preserved..(people may sell the verses for petty price, but scriptures were in its real form) So, the instructions to fast would have been in Torah and Injeel unless God won't call as it prescribed for earlier people.. . Why they should leave the instructions written in them to Quran.. It's not alteration verses... it's continuation.. Fast as they fasted... Not a verse like what is prohibited foods jews made allowed by QURAN verses.. Then Torah or Injeel verse goes invalid and quran verse is valid.. But not in the case of fasting.. . Coz they were fasting and these were asked to fast first time..
How do you ensure to yourself that this is the month God ordered to fast or just fast coz everyone fasts? So for practicing God's book we need human culture and their respective months to be verified.. . I don't think so.. God gives instructions with what He created and not what human created..

I agree with Layth most of the points .. It makes sense within Quran..
Taje example Haj.. God says Haj is in well known months.. Not mentioned any Arabic month by name..
2197 "The Pilgrimage is in MONTHS WELL-KNOWN; whoso undertakes the duty of Pilgrimage IN THEM shall not go in to his womenfolk nor indulge in ungodliness and disputing in the Pilgrimage. Whatever good you do, God knows it. And take provision; but the best provision is godfearing, so fear you Me, men possessed of minds"

If you take above verse only as base, it would literally mean one should do haj complete well known months not for days.. But if you read other verses it clearly indicates haj is only few days within those months.. .. But only within those months.. Anyone can start haj at any time within those months.. Same for me yasummuhu is.. It doesn't mean all should start beginning of the month and complete end of the month..
Three days is very clear with verse 2184 during the heated(ramadhan shahr (month / full cycle of moon)..
So compare 2197 with 2185 .. Does both order for all believers to do haj continuously throughout well known months and fast whole month.. Simply No.. First 2183 gives order of fasting is prescribed.. Second.. 2184 orders how many days.. Third.. 2185 indicates when to fast..
Fourth.. 2187 .. How to fast and restrictions..

Are you referring masjid Al haram or ancient house. ? Both physical places... If there is a new thread we can discuss and debate .

Yes.. You are confused as long as you use the phrase "in case I am wrong"...so there is possibility that you are wrong than right... All I can say come up with strong mind that you are right.. Debate with it.. Find out where your RIGHT minded approach stands.. . You will learn you are right or wrong in the end if the understandings of others did or didn't convince you after fair debate.. ..

Your last point "innovation"... If the person who debate or present his views for innovation manifestly, then he or she will end up as it is.. But if a person find there is something wrong in what majority accepts then he is not innovating but he brings his fair point with logic.. He may end up right or wrong ultimately in people's mind.. For instance what Huruf presented.. It was not innovation but her research.. That's all.. Innovation has only oneway oriented goal.. Misguidance.. Knowingly or unknowingly... Mostly with knowledge.. Difference of opinion with clean heart is not innovation..

tutti_frutti

salam wakas

thank you for your links, ill read them )

salam good logic

i agree with you that it is a physical place and it is to thank The God for everything including animals He created for humankind

salam layth

i assume its to be different cause goong through variois posts on this forun i see that people debate evry single thing and change everything from prayer no being prostration to satan being the human mind and not an entety enemy to mankind to masjid Al Haram not physical to gog & magog being nuclear energy to ramadan being only some days etc etc

we cannot judge who truly believes in The God or not, only The God knows

i am not saying you said prayer is not physical i was just replying to the posts i have seen on other threads on the forum and i am only giving my opinion that it is physical. if it were not physical, why would we be told by The God to do wudu when we rise to prayer in chapter 5, verse 6

for “limited number of days”, well i read that part as “fixed number of days” and not limited. also limited does not mean anything btw. and let us assume it is limited, well limited number of days meaning limited to one month perhaps? it is quite clear that He tells us the Quran was sent in the month of ramadan and we should fast IT. it is a fixed number of days. nothing to do with traditions as i dont believe in traditions (including circumcision, slaughtering of sheep for 3eid etc etc naa i dont believe in that)

yes i assumed it is the same. The God tells abraham that people will come there from everywhere and to take care of the place for people who will to come to it and pray (ch 22, v26) and in chaoter 2, verse 196 i understood that pilgrimage is fo masjid Al Haram. so as abraham was told people will come form everywhere and then we are told about hajj and mention of masjid Al Haram in ch2 v196, yeah for me they are the same. for me the restricted temple is the house built by anraham and ishamel. unless pilgrimage is to masjid Al Haram and al bayt is just extra (which i doubt) look at surah 106 where we are told people will travel in winter snd summer snd to let them worship the Lord of “this house” so in my understanding they are the same and hajj is in winter and summer

regarding issue of the first house and second house i am not yet knowledgeable about that )

maybe i am wrong. well maybe you are wrong and misguiding by saying things for example that ramadan is only ten days and laylat al Qadr is in winter (you assume too much in saying that btw) others who claim salat is not physical also misguide. so what does misguide mean? should we not share our opinions?

salam jkhan

i am not concerned anout mainstream. again you miss the point. i am saying we should not start trying to be different for the sake of being different thats all. and whatever we debate we should use verses as proofs and not start being complicated and innovating.

salat euh yeah salat is prostrating. we are given specific times for salat as well as wudu and we are told how to perform it (i cld share verses if you want) and to maintain our prayers

ramadan yeah it is a must it was decreed on us like on those before us. Jannah or not for fasting it or not, well The God does what He wants. i never said anything regarding that matter. i dont really understand your other arguments abou ramadan. in any case, i never said i agree that ramadan is the month that has been fixed in islamic calendar. on the contrary i think it very well could not be the case. i believe the answer lies in surah 53, and has to do with the star sirius when it was at its highest horizon and then came closest to earth (for me that is laylat Al Qadr)

why do you assume ramadan is three days? what in 2, 184 makes you say three days?again assumptions assumptions assumption
fast IT is very clear to me to fast the month

ancient house for me is the generic name and masjid Al Haram is its name.

no i cannot say i am right. i only try. remember there is a verse where The God tells us those who think they are guided by they are not. so we should not assume just cause we believe that hadiths sunnah etc are fabrications and adhere to Quran only means we are guided. The God does what He wants.

peace )

Layth

Dear TF,

i assume its to be different cause goong through variois posts on this forum i see that people debate every single thing and change everything from prayer no being prostration to satan being the human mind and not an entety enemy to mankind to masjid Al Haram not physical to gog & magog being nuclear energy to ramadan being only some days etc etc

This forum is over a decade old. I'm sure you'll find lots of stuff from the many people that have come through. This website is open to all ideas as long as they can be backed-up with some Quranic reference - we do not mock anyone's ideas as long as the discussion is civilized and polite.

After all, what made the early Muslims go from simple nomads and farmers to become the leaders of the world in science, astronomy, mathematics, etc. was their understanding that the Quran removed all shackles from the mind and allowed them to imagine and strive...

i am not saying you said prayer is not physical i was just replying to the posts i have seen on other threads on the forum and i am only giving my opinion that it is physical. if it were not physical, why would we be told by The God to do wudu when we rise to prayer in chapter 5, verse 6

I would venture that the people who said that were finding 95 difficult to reconcile. After all, when we study the Quran, we need to take ALL verses on any particular subject into account, else the conclusion will be flawed.

For example the Sunnis rely heavily on "obey God and obey the messenger" to advocate for the credibility of Hadith as a form of law (Quran is God, Hadith is the messenger)...Yet, had they done the job of collecting all verses/data on the subject, then they would have seen that the Quran qualifies the statement later on by saying "whoever has obeyed the messenger has obeyed God" (480), meaning that God & the messenger in the area of obedience are not mutually exclusive.

for “limited number of days”, well i read that part as “fixed number of days” and not limited. also limited does not mean anything btw. and let us assume it is limited, well limited number of days meaning limited to one month perhaps? it is quite clear that He tells us the Quran was sent in the month of ramadan and we should fast IT. it is a fixed number of days. nothing to do with traditions as i dont believe in traditions (including circumcision, slaughtering of sheep for 3eid etc etc naa i dont believe in that)

Ayaam Madoodat = Limited Days (see its use in 280, 2184, 2203, 324).

The word "madooda" is used in Arabic to typically denote a number from 3-10 and no more. As you can see, the pilgrimage of 3 days in 2203 uses the same exact terminology as 2184.

Before you fast forward to 2185 which speaks of the month of Ramadhan, ask yourself what is the fast that the previous people of the Book have been upholding or exists in their books as God says it does?

Have you ever heard of a 30 day fast with the Jews or Christians?

Do they have a 3-10 day fast that they upheld in the past?

Anyway, the subject is not to turn this thread into a discussion on fasting...It is merely to point out that you are rushing to conclusions (wrong ones) without using 1736.

Even when the Quran was revealed, God tells the Prophet "not to hasten his tongue with it" because it is God who will explain it (7516-19)

yes i assumed it is the same. The God tells abraham that people will come there from everywhere and to take care of the place for people who will to come to it and pray (ch 22, v26) and in chaoter 2, verse 196 i understood that pilgrimage is fo masjid Al Haram. so as abraham was told people will come form everywhere and then we are told about hajj and mention of masjid Al Haram in ch2 v196, yeah for me they are the same. for me the restricted temple is the house built by anraham and ishamel. unless pilgrimage is to masjid Al Haram and al bayt is just extra (which i doubt) look at surah 106 where we are told people will travel in winter snd summer snd to let them worship the Lord of “this house” so in my understanding they are the same and hajj is in winter and summer

The pilgrimage is to the House (Al-Bayt). The Masjid (whether the restricted Temple or any other Temple) is either another construct or the area surrounding the Bayt/House.

maybe i am wrong. well maybe you are wrong and misguiding by saying things for example that ramadan is only ten days and laylat al Qadr is in winter (you assume too much in saying that btw) others who claim salat is not physical also misguide. so what does misguide mean? should we not share our opinions?

Why have you been given eyes, ears, and a mind if you will surrender them to others whom the devil may have misguided?

Would you rather stand before God having followed people who were misguided, or, would you rather stand before God having done your own research and thought process and only upheld what you were comfortable having verified?

"The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom God has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence." (391

tutti_frutti

salam layth

yes obviously this is a place to share ideas. i am definatly not mocking anyone. i dont even know if what i am saying is correct. i am just giving my opinion

the word shahr is used throughout Quran to mean month. i do not see why you think it means full moon. and we are told to fast it. also the limited or fixed days could mean to fast the whole month not less not more. non?

for prayer i am not following sunni or whatever i do not recite Quran in my prayers but rather i ask forgiveness guidance mercy ... and say things we are told to say in prayer (ch 17, v111) and other mentions such as saying my life devotion death are to The God... as well as glorify The God. i do what i understand from the Quran and not what sunnis do. (i also do not pray 5 times a day)
why is there wudu? why name salats? why tell us those who ask forgiveness before fajr? why tell us to bow and prostrate? why not to be too loud or quite in prayer? why tell us maintain prayers? why say in times of war we can do 1 prostration? why say also during war a group prays whilst a group acts as vigils? why say prayers are on time? etc etc

I want to add people becareful prayer is extremely important we are never told it is okay to skip it even once. even during war we must pray. please people start praying physically to The God everyday on timeand never skip even one prayer

regarding the jews or christians i mean many things have been changed so i cannot take them as reference. and if you take them as reference for fasting, why not for prayer? they physically pray albeit in their own manner but still physical. (btw there is a video in french where a rabbi talks about how prayer was like muslims but change by jews in purpose and how his people in synagogue pray like muslims (and even showing them pray like muslims))
(i am speaking in general regarding prayer and not about you layth)

you are saying i am rushing to conclusions... cant we say then the same for you and everyone else who has an opinion?? is having an opinion rushing?

what is your proof about the masjid and the bayt being different?

again i am not following any group or wtver i am speaking from what i understand of the Quran

and we should not assume just because people uphold hadith that they do not believe in The God. many of them perhaps uphold the hadith because we are told to obey the messenger and thus they are afraid of The God if they do not uphold the hadith. many of them give away soo much charity, fast every year, pray all the time and every fajr as well and strive to go to what they believe is hajj etc etc and they do all that as they believe they are commands from The God (and they are indeed commands albeit prayer is not 5 times in my opinion and not reciting Wuran or saying or me tioning prophets as they do etc and hajj is not saudi arabia in my opinion too).

my point is we simply cannot say who is a true believer and who is not and who is guided and who is not. we do not know, only The God knows.

peace )

good_logic

Peace tutti_frutti.

Everyone of us would love to have a private reveletion from GOD , or in this day and age a private PM to explain every detail we have doubt about or even just basic meaning of certain words. But this is not going to happen.Why?

Because GOD keeps doing that every few generation through a messenger
Look for example what GOD said to this messenger
إِنَّكَ مَيِّتٌ وَإِنَّهُم مَّيِّتُو ثُمَّ إِنَّكُمْ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ عِندَ رَبِّكُمْ تَخْتَصِمُونَ

You are gping to die and they are going to die(those that you brought the message to),then you will be arguing with each other on the day of judgement!!!. That means even followers of any present messenger have issues with his message and they disagree with some of it!!

It is no wonder we are the same. Different views/meanings/ways/...sects upon sects of the same book!!

Why would GOD keep repeating this fact to us in Qoran
حَتَّىٰ إِذَا جَاءُوهَا فُتِحَتْ أَبْوَابُهَا وَقَالَ لَهُمْ خَزَنَتُهَا أَلَمْ يَأْتِكُمْ رُسُلٌ مِّنكُمْ يَتْلُونَ عَلَيْكُمْ آيَاتِ رَبِّكُمْ وَيُنذِرُونَكُمْ لِقَاءَ يَوْمِكُمْ هَـٰذَا ۚ قَالُوا بَلَىٰ وَلَـٰكِنْ حَقَّتْ كَلِمَةُ الْعَذَابِ عَلَى الْكَافِرِينَ

Did no messengers from among your came to you with my message? Why would we say Yes of course!!!? Or is GOD lying to us?
Or are we going to say to GOD I understood it my way? I thought I was cleverer than the messenger? I ridiculed the messenger and my logic/cleverness was better and made more sense to me?

We all have the same Qoran, does our differences not show us that GOD intended to send a messenger after Mohammed to clarify certain things? Who was it, is it or is going to be?

Of course at the end of our bickering all one can say is
قُلْ يَا قَوْمِ اعْمَلُوا عَلَىٰ مَكَانَتِكُمْ إِنِّي عَامِلٌ ۖ فَسَوْفَ تَعْلَمُونَ

You work for your destiny my people and I work for mine Then GOD will judge on that day and show us our difference of opinions and views.
اللَّـهُمَّ فَاطِرَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ عَالِمَ الْغَيْبِ وَالشَّهَادَةِ أَنتَ تَحْكُمُ بَيْنَ عِبَادِكَ فِي مَا كَانُوا فِيهِ يَخْتَلِفُون

Still all is not lost, simlpy because GOD is forever with us and we should turn to His help and guidance in all our needs and doubts.
Keep up your study and search for your truth.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Layth

Dear TF,

the word shahr is used throughout Quran to mean month. i do not see why you think it means full moon. and we are told to fast it. also the limited or fixed days could mean to fast the whole month not less not more. non?

I have not said that month/shar is the full moon, nor have I denied the statement that you are to "fast it". I merely pointed out that you have skipped an important part of the story by ignoring 2183-184, and that will always lead to a distorted understanding (with your posts, the fast begins in 2185 and we can pretend 183-184 do not even exist?!)

Is the fast of 182-183 and the fast of 185 the same thing?

Is Ramadhan a recurring month (the night of destiny in it is equated to 1,000 months)?

When was Ramadhan during the time of revelation - was it summer or winter or spring or autumn?

What does it mean "those who witness the month" - are not all months "witnessed"?

for prayer i am not following sunni or whatever i do not recite Quran in my prayers but rather i ask forgiveness guidance mercy ... and say things we are told to say in prayer (ch 17, v111) and other mentions such as saying my life devotion death are to The God... as well as glorify The God. i do what i understand from the Quran and not what sunnis do. (i also do not pray 5 times a day) why is there wudu? why name salats? why tell us those who ask forgiveness before fajr? why tell us to bow and prostrate? why not to be too loud or quite in prayer? why tell us maintain prayers? why say in times of war we can do 1 prostration? why say also during war a group prays whilst a group acts as vigils? why say prayers are on time? etc etc

Why have you called Al Salat "prayer"? Prayer is "Duaa" and can happen at any time with no requirements for ritual ablution or voice (like the men to pray to God when they thought they will drown on the ship and He saves them).

I want to add people becareful prayer is extremely important we are never told it is okay to skip it even once. even during war we must pray. please people start praying physically to The God everyday on timeand never skip even one prayer

Again, you are mixing prayer with Al Salat. People can and should remember God frequently when they rise and when they sleep and when they commit to something...None of that is Al Salat.

Does God need you to be clean when you pray? Does He smell you? Also, why the audible voice, does He need to hear you?

regarding the jews or christians i mean many things have been changed so i cannot take them as reference. and if you take them as reference for fasting, why not for prayer? they physically pray albeit in their own manner but still physical. (btw there is a video in french where a rabbi talks about how prayer was like muslims but change by jews in purpose and how his people in synagogue pray like muslims (and even showing them pray like muslims))

I only pointed out fasting because the Quran specifically mentioned that it was decreed "as it was decreed to those before you".

you are saying i am rushing to conclusions... cant we say then the same for you and everyone else who has an opinion?? is having an opinion rushing?

I carry out what I find to be defendable, and leave open the subjects that still need clarity/depth. You have made assumptions from the start that this is correct and that is wrong - I am simply trying to point out that you are skipping a bunch of stuff on each of these subjects - that is rushing.

what is your proof about the masjid and the bayt being different?

The Bayt/House (original) was revealed by God and its foundations raised by Abraham and Ismail. Our obligation is to make pilgrimage to the House.

The Masjid (restricted or otherwise) only gets mention during the story/life of Mohammed - meaning it could be a separate structure or the structure that encompassed the Bayt/House.

and we should not assume just because people uphold hadith that they do not believe in The God. many of them perhaps uphold the hadith because we are told to obey the messenger and thus they are afraid of The God if they do not uphold the hadith. many of them give away soo much charity, fast every year, pray all the time and every fajr as well and strive to go to what they believe is hajj etc etc and they do all that as they believe they are commands from The God (and they are indeed commands albeit prayer is not 5 times in my opinion and not reciting Quran or saying or mentioning prophets as they do etc and hajj is not saudi arabia in my opinion too).

Yes, that is called "shirk" and is an unforgivable offence if maintained until death. All good works done under this state are nullified.

Wakas

The Hajj article I agree with to an extent - though not that its location can be changed.

As for the Masjid Al-Haram, I skipped to the summary and saw that its not being viewed as a physical place?

Not a physical place, as that is the weaker of the options.

The article explains in detail why and also highlights issues/problems for various understandings, including a physical place.

tutti_frutti

salam layth

the answer to when ramadan is is definately in the Quran as we are told the Quran is detailed and has all information. i think it is a month. for me it was clear for you something else was clear lol

what do you mean by why should we be clean? The God tells us to do wudu. He did not tell us to systematically shower but only in certain conditions. we are also told we could use soil in certain conditions. so its not to smell good i believe huh. and so what do you do with that verse about wudu? what is its purpose?

also, water perhaps repels the devil? (isnt the devil made of fire?)

The God knows why He told us to do wudu and we should uphold it

so what does it mean salat fajr and salat 3isha?? what do you make of this? what is your definition of salat please?

why would the bayt not be masjid Al Haram? bayt the generic word and its name masjid Haram maybe? whats your proof that it is not?

what do you mean I have made assumptions? are you not making assumptions too??

shirk for me means to obey the devil and not The God. you cannot call people who uphold hadith necessarily misguided and doing shirk (yes i agree that its not good to uphold hadith and the other fabrications). but you and me do not know, The God knows. we dont even know if we ourselves are guided or not.

salam wakas

i still think masjid Al Haram is physical

peace