The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
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Peace everyone,
Just a quick post with some brief thoughts. I believe that it is impossible to understand our purpose in life and the after life without understanding the meaning of "jinn".
The human fantasy (jinn) is the only source of falsehood in the universe. For example, other creatures and the entire universe don’t care about our fantasized black cube or black stones. If the entire human race goes extinct tomorrow, the universe will remain true and there will be no kissing or fondling of “holy” stones. This truth that permeates the universe and holds it together is independent of humans and for all intents and purposes it is the god (This proves the existence of the god without any doubt).
3130 This is because the god is the truth and what they call upon other than him is the falsehood and the god is the one who is the high and the grand.
Since the god is literally the truth, controlling our fantasy (the only source of falsehood in the universe) by having it submit to our true “self” naturally serves the truth.
- And when the god said to the controllers “I am making in the earth a leader”. They said “Do you make in it that who corrupts in it and sheds blood while we exalt with your praise and sanctify for you?” He said “I know what you don’t know.”
Humans serve the god by fulfilling their duty as good stewards of this blessed earth. The human imagination, when it is controlled with the truth and submits to us (as it was originally supposed to do), drives all of our progress and inventions that enable us to lead this earth.
Uncontrolled fantasies are the fuel of hell. Literally hell is the worst thing a person can imagine.
- And as for the deviators, they are the firewood of hell.
1114 And his mate is a relentless bearer of firewood.
Allegorically, fantasies are produced by humans like a pregnant woman who relentlessly produces offspring. Except in this case her offspring is like firewood constantly fueling her own hell. There is no life in hell since there is no water, the ingredient for life.
- And the companions of hell call the companions of heaven “spare some water for us or some of what the god provided you.” They reply “The god forbade them on the unappreciative.”
Hell is not a place but is a state of no life and no death (8713). It is a state of being trapped in one’s own worst fantasies. It is like a constant eternal nightmare. On the other hand, the good fantasies are allegorically given water (the ingredient of life).
7216 And had they (the fantasies) been straight on the way, they would have been given plenty of water to drink.
It is important to purify the imagination and control it. In the new phase of creation after death the good controlled fantasies would be given water as the allegorical ingredient of life and will become new life forms. On the other hand, those who are linked to bad uncontrolled fantasies will stay stuck in the hell of the bad fantasy world and they will have no place in this new phase of creation. For example, imaginary stone cubes and black stones deities that have powers to wipe sins and return a person sinless like a baby have no business as new life forms in the afterlife. Therefore, those uncontrolled fantasies (devils) and those who are tied to them cannot be part of the true afterlife and will remain stuck in the bad fantasy state (hell).
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace,
From the following verses, I understand Aljinn et aljinns. As two different creations.
Like human beings, Aljinn have feet, hearts, eyes, ears, offspring, soldiers, nations, they speak, warn, think, create and have received messengers among them.721
Say "It has been inspired to me that a group of Jinn were listening." They said "We have heard a magnificent Qur'an!"
722
"It guides to what is correct, so we believed in it, and we will not set up anyone with our Lord."
723
"And Exalted is the Majesty of our Lord, He has not taken a wife nor a son."
724
"And the foolish one among us used to say lies about God."
725
"And we had thought that neither mankind nor the Jinn would ever utter a lie against God."
726
"And there were men from among mankind who used to seek help from the men among the Jinn, but they only increased them in sin / rahaqan /fatigue, exhaustion."6112
And as such, We have permitted the enemies of every prophet-human and Jinn devils-to inspire each other with fancy words in order to deceive. Had your Lord willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their fabrications.6128
And the Day We gather them all "O assembly of Jinn, you have managed to take many from mankind." Their supporters from mankind said "Our Lord, we have indeed enjoyed one another, and we have reached our destiny to which You delayed us." He said "The Fire is your dwelling, abiding therein, except as your Lord wishes." Your Lord is Wise, Knowledgeable.6130
"O assembly of Jinn and mankind, did not messengers come to you from amongst you and narrate to you My revelations, and warn you of the meeting of this Day?" They said "Yes, we bear witness upon ourselves;" and the worldly life deceived them, and they bore witness upon themselves that they were rejecters.738
He said "Enter with the multitude of nations before you from mankind and Jinn to the Fire!" Every time a nation entered, it cursed its sister nation, until they are all gathered inside it; then the last of them says to the first "Our Lord, these are the ones who have misguided us, so give them double the retribution of the Fire!" He replied "Each will receive double, but you do not know."7179
And We have given to Hell many of the Jinn and mankind; they had hearts with which they did not understand, and they had eyes with which they did not see, and they had ears with which they did not hear. They are like hoofed animals; no, they are even more astray. These are the unaware ones.1850
And We said to the angels "Yield to Adam." So they all yielded except for Satan. He was of the Jinn, he disobeyed the order of his Lord. Will you take him and his progeny as allies besides Me, while they are your enemy? Miserable for the transgressors is the substitute!2717
And the soldiers of Solomon were gathered, comprising of mankind and Jinn and birds, for they were to be spread out.2739
A powerful being from among the Jinn said "I will bring it to you before you rise from your station. For I am strong and trustworthy."3412
And for Solomon the wind was given, traveling one month coming and one month going, and We caused a spring of tar to flow for him. And from among the Jinn are those that worked for him with the permission of his Lord; and any one of them who turns from Our commands, We shall cause him to taste the retribution of the Fire.4125
And We assigned to them associates who adorned their present and past actions-and the sentence was deserved by them-as it was for the nations before them of Jinn and mankind; they were losers.4129
And those who have rejected will say "Our Lord, show us those who have misled us from among the Jinn and mankind so we can trample them under our feet, so that they would be the lowest."4618
These are the ones against whom the sentence has been deserved in nations who had come before them of mankind and Jinn; they are the losers.4629
And We dispatched to you a company of Jinn, in order to let them listen to the Qur'an. So when they arrived there, they said "Pay attention." Then, when it was finished, they returned to their people, to warn them.5533
O assembly of Jinn and mankind, if you can penetrate the boundaries of the heavens and the earth, then go ahead and penetrate. You will not penetrate without might.Peace
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These seem to be conclusions from self-reflection, which is good, but there is more to it imo, so allow me to contribute with my two cents.
An example of falsehood that is not necessarily "human fantasy" is impressions (e.g a woman seeing her husband talking to another woman and becomes jealous) Not that impressions are always wrong, but they are likely to be wrong because they are not founded on something that make them true. This is the real question What is the source of truth. And of course if truth has a source then it must be unique or in a sense coherent with any other source of truth, because as Ibn Rushd said, truth cannot negate truth.
Now truth, how do you know that what you think is true is really true ? People have to have a tool by which they can measure truth. Otherwise, in the absence of such tool, people are left with things that make them feel comfortable. In other words, in the absence of such tool, people will inevitably choose what brings them pleasure, self-fulfillement, comfort...something that serves them selfishly, this is the is the root of "evil", imo.
Do we even have such tool ? is it internal or external ? Are we born with it, do we acquire it ?
I think we have it, it is what makes humans above animals, our ability to reason, to think logically, to reflect on oneself etc, it is something that is tied to our mind. Now do we have access to it ? Not that granted, one has to learn to use it, or in a sense "follow it", and the more you do the more it clears out for you as if it was foggy in the first place. Or like Rumi says "Sit, be still, and listen. You are drunk and we are at the edge of the roof!".
If such thing is really is the tool by which truth is determined, then in fact, science is a good example of it. If scientists are able to uncover the inner workings of the different things in our universe using that very tool, and the possibility that our universe was created by a a God Being, and such inner workings were meticulously designed by God, doesn't that sort of make that tool something shared between us and God ? Or at the very least, it allows us to understand the hows and whys of God's creation ? Isn't that something ?
What happens when we continuously apply that tool on our own self and life ? We gain self-knowledge, understanding and wisdom. But it is not as easy as applying it on external things the way scientists do. Because we are constantly inclined to go for what brings us self-fulfillement, that selfish nature of the human body. It is as if, scientists were continuously offered large sums of money to back certain theories. Will there be any truth ?
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Interesting topic.
Here is a problem, also according to Science, quote"Psychologists have shown that people have a very, very strong, robust confirmation bias.
What this means is that when they have an idea, and they start to reason about that idea, they are going to mostly find arguments for their own idea. They're going to come up with reasons why they're right, they're going to come up with justifications for their decisions. They're not going to challenge themselves.And the problem with the confirmation bias is that it leads people to make very bad decisions and to arrive at crazy beliefs. And it's weird, when you think of it, that humans should be endowed with a confirmation bias. If the goal of reasoning were to help us arrive at better beliefs and make better decisions, then there should be no bias. The confirmation bias should really not exist at all.
But if you take the point of view of the argumentative theory, having a confirmation bias makes complete sense. When you're trying to convince someone, you don't want to find arguments for the other side, you want to find arguments for your side. And that's what the confirmation bias helps you do.
The idea here is that the confirmation bias is not a flaw of reasoning, it's actually a feature. It is something that is built into reasoning; not because reasoning is flawed or because people are stupid, but because actually people are very good at reasoning — but they're very good at reasoning for arguing.
Not only does the argumentative theory explain the bias, it can also give us ideas about how to escape the bad consequences of the confirmation bias."We like to think of ourselves as rational creatures, blessed with this Promethean gift of being able to decipher the world and uncover all sorts of hidden truths.
Or do we sometimes convince ourselves "falsehoods" as "truths"
Yes, human nature is weird.
GOD bless.
Peace. -
Everything that the human being creates and realizes comes from his imagination.
Depending on his family, social, cultural conditioning, his generational heritage, he is constantly bombarded with thoughts.
When he is identified with a thought / emotion, he becomes this thought / emotion, he acts as a consequence of this thought / emotion which deprives him of all freedom of action.
The good news is, we are not those thoughts, we can be freed from them by being aware of the thoughts in our fields of consciousness, our inner space.
We can neither purify them, nor control them, they only pass through our fields of consciousness like clouds in the sky. Believing that we can fight or stop a thought / emotion, we only exacerbate it.
The best way to purify ourself of thoughts / emotions is to observe them without any personal desire to modify them,
the interior struggle ceases, the miracle of letting go takes place, God relaxes our chests. Life flows smoothly in peace, joy and love.We live in hell when we live in struggle, we say no to life events, we believe in the illusion of thoughts and our inner separation from the outside world. When this inner separation ceases, we become vast inside and no thought / emotion can pollute our inner peace.
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From the following verses, I understand Aljinn et aljinns. As two different creations.
Like human beings, Aljinn have feet, hearts, eyes, ears, offspring, soldiers, nations, they speak, warn, think, create and have received messengers among them.Peace Houriya/Marie, it is nice to discuss with you the great reading again. The fantasy and the human are indeed two different creations that are bonded together. While the human is a living creature, the fantasy is not a living creature since it is not made of water but of fire. The fantasy uses the human as a vehicle to walk to listen and to produce beautiful art (such as statues for Solomon) and when the human makes it submit with the truth in the law of aerodynamics it can produce flying machines (such as a flying machine that enables rapid travel to transport the queen's throne to Solomon).
Peace,
Ayman
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An example of falsehood that is not necessarily "human fantasy" is impressions (e.g a woman seeing her husband talking to another woman and becomes jealous) Not that impressions are always wrong, but they are likely to be wrong because they are not founded on something that make them true.
Peace Cerberus, impression is based on the imagination. Although the human imagination is the source of all falsehood in the universe, this doesn't mean that truth cannot come from controlled imagination. Take your example of "impression". I talk to someone on the phone and I get the impression that they are a young 18 year old boy. When I meet them, they are actually a 60 years old man. What gave me the impression is my imagination. As I control my imagination with the truth from meeting them, I change my impression and so on. If I am really in strong control of my imagination, then I wouldn't even form an impression about their age until I meet them and ask them what their age is )
This is the real question What is the source of truth. And of course if truth has a source then it must be unique or in a sense coherent with any other source of truth, because as Ibn Rushd said, truth cannot negate truth.
Humans are not the source of the truth. The truth is out there whether humans find it or not. We are merely trying to get closer to the truth. Whether you have an impression about someone's age or not, you can only get closer to the date of birth but not down to the exact millisecond. You cannot control the time dimension that makes him age or the rate of regeneration of cells in his body to make him look younger or older. The god is the truth and is the source of all truth.
Now truth, how do you know that what you think is true is really true ? People have to have a tool by which they can measure truth. Otherwise, in the absence of such tool, people are left with things that make them feel comfortable. In other words, in the absence of such tool, people will inevitably choose what brings them pleasure, self-fulfillement, comfort...something that serves them selfishly, this is the is the root of "evil", imo.
In the traditional judeo-christian human-centric view of the world the human is at the center of the universe and thus his measurement of the truth is what defines truth. In the great reading world view truth is independent of humans and truth is not determined by our measurement. Our measurement is merely an attempt to get closer to the truth that is already out there no matter what we choose.
Do we even have such tool ? is it internal or external ? Are we born with it, do we acquire it ?
We do have a tool to help us serve the truth. The tool is our true self, which is part of the universal truth. When your imagination submits to your "true you" as it was supposed to do from the start then you can get closer to the truth and serve it (get closer to the god and serve him, since the god is for all intents and purposes the truth).
I think we have it, it is what makes humans above animals, our ability to reason, to think logically, to reflect on oneself etc, it is something that is tied to our mind. Now do we have access to it ? Not that granted, one has to learn to use it, or in a sense "follow it", and the more you do the more it clears out for you as if it was foggy in the first place. Or like Rumi says "Sit, be still, and listen. You are drunk and we are at the edge of the roof!".
Indeed, knowing the "true you" (your real self) that is part of the truth in the universe and having your imagination submit to it (as it was supposed to from the start) is what clears the fog. The true self is what remains after we die since truth is independent of humans.
If such thing is really is the tool by which truth is determined, then in fact, science is a good example of it. If scientists are able to uncover the inner workings of the different things in our universe using that very tool, and the possibility that our universe was created by a a God Being, and such inner workings were meticulously designed by God, doesn't that sort of make that tool something shared between us and God ? Or at the very least, it allows us to understand the hows and whys of God's creation ? Isn't that something ?
Yes. Scientists use those tools to get closer to the truth in the universe. Scientists don't create truth. The god is not some being in white robes sitting on a cloud. The god is the truth and the universe is created with the truth. It is not a possibility. It is a certainty.
What happens when we continuously apply that tool on our own self and life ? We gain self-knowledge, understanding and wisdom. But it is not as easy as applying it on external things the way scientists do. Because we are constantly inclined to go for what brings us self-fulfillement, that selfish nature of the human body. It is as if, scientists were continuously offered large sums of money to back certain theories. Will there be any truth ?
Indeed controlling our imagination and making it submit to our real self is simple but can be hard because we often forget ourselves and we let the imagination take over.
Peace,
Ayman
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Everything that the human being creates and realizes comes from his imagination.
Indeed the imagination (the jinn) plays an important role in everything the human creates. It can make us create idols and black cubes when it controls us or we can make it submit to us with the truth and invent technology to help us lead the earth.
Depending on his family, social, cultural conditioning, his generational heritage, he is constantly bombarded with thoughts.
When he is identified with a thought / emotion, he becomes this thought / emotion, he acts as a consequence of this thought / emotion which deprives him of all freedom of action.
The good news is, we are not those thoughts, we can be freed from them by being aware of the thoughts in our fields of consciousness, our inner space.
We can neither purify them, nor control them, they only pass through our fields of consciousness like clouds in the sky. Believing that we can fight or stop a thought / emotion, we only exacerbate it.
The best way to purify ourself of thoughts / emotions is to observe them without any personal desire to modify them,
the interior struggle ceases, the miracle of letting go takes place, God relaxes our chests. Life flows smoothly in peace, joy and love.
We live in hell when we live in struggle, we say no to life events, we believe in the illusion of thoughts and our inner separation from the outside world. When this inner separation ceases, we become vast inside and no thought / emotion can pollute our inner peace.Indeed our true self by being "true" is inherently part of the truth in the universe (the outside world).
Peace,
Ayman
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Basically we are social animals. We do not live our own lives, we live our “expected/dictated/pressurized” life by society.
We conform to the majority or are made to conform to the majority.
Those trying to live their own lives are very few people in this world of “expectations”. This is what most people see as reality, conforming to the systems of men.Or one can ask what is our own life? This may lead to what brother Cerberus was talking about in his post. They reflect on themselves or should reflect.
But the magnet of society is too strong and keeps pulling us towards conformity.
So, the truth becomes irrelevant to the majority.
.Living our lives then will be dependent on the created, and we cut ourselves from the Creator. We take on other gods as a god and ignore The GOD.
Therefore we live our life the wrong way around ,the illusion becomes our reality and the reality becomes an illusion to us.
GOD bless.
Peace. -
The human being is endowed with a brain to reason, a hidden imaginary, I do not consider it as a second entity nested with the human being. There are a lot of repetitive, unnecessary, destructive thoughts.
The Jinn can lead humans astray, yet sayateen are among us and among the jinn. What comes from the human or the jinn, God only knows (desires, passion ..).
When we identify with a thought, it controls our life, takes power over us. The little inner voice is within us, depends on our experience, our heritage, on the known.
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When we identify with a thought, it controls our life, takes power over us.
If what you meant was if we identify all thoughts appearing inside the mind all as our own thoughts, then I concur with you.
When one is attached to the thoughts of fear, hate, aggressiveness, pride, sadness appearing inside his/her own mind then such thoughts will be manifested as one's reality.
You are what you are inside of you.
Nobody put you to 'hell', let alone God, it's you who put yourselves to your own 'hell'.More in depth on this matter
Heaven And Hell
https//youtu.be/fFrn7BgSkUMYet such experience can be seen also as a 'catalyst'.
Experiencing fear will make one to desire, learn and recognize trust, courage and peace/calmness.
And once there's a desire, the path will be laid out to make a journey towards it. -
If what you meant was if we identify all thoughts appearing inside the mind all as our own thoughts, then I concur with you.
When one is attached to the thoughts of fear, hate, aggressiveness, pride, sadness appearing inside his/her own mind then such thoughts will be manifested as one's reality.
You are what you are inside of you.
Nobody put you to 'hell', let alone God, it's you who put yourselves to your own 'hell'.we identify / merge with thoughts as we identify / merge with our identity name, family situation, professional ...
Emotion is the body's reaction to thought
I'm talking about the hell you create when you're a prisoner of thoughts, you struggle internally.
We must not stray too far from Ayman's thread
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Peace Cerberus, impression is based on the imagination. Although the human imagination is the source of all falsehood in the universe, this doesn't mean that truth cannot come from controlled imagination. Take your example of "impression". I talk to someone on the phone and I get the impression that they are a young 18 year old boy. When I meet them, they are actually a 60 years old man. What gave me the impression is my imagination. As I control my imagination with the truth from meeting them, I change my impression and so on. If I am really in strong control of my imagination, then I wouldn't even form an impression about their age until I meet them and ask them what their age is )
Yes impression is based on imagination. Imagination simply being the human ability to form mental images. It's a pretty vague thing. I brought impression specifically as a counter-example to your initial claim that "fantasy" is the "only" source of falsehood.
Imagination is an ability.
What you consider "controlling imagination" is simply reasoning logically about what you imagine, and not just anything you "imagine", specifically the things that you imagine while being unaware,that is, false perceptions and impressions...You simply are applying reason to what you think. Which you should. Just like you would to the things you are looking at, listening to, talking about ..etc.Generally one should reason about what they have in mind, and about their motives. Good logic brought the "problem" of reason being used as an argumentation tool rather than a tool to find truth. Which is true, just like if you had a group of criminals "reasoning" about HOW to weasle their way into a bank to steal the money. But what about reasoning about the WHY ? that's where you find that they have their reasons for wanting to steal the bank but it's all just nonsense that is selfishly motivated.
Reason applied to ourselves brings self-knowledge, understanding of ourselves and wisdom, and allows us to rectify our thoughts and behavior.
I dont find it intuitive to keep trying to pinpoint things as being "the only source of falsehood" or what not. I understand you're trying to find something which you can project back unto to quran in place of "Jinn", but I find it more intuitive to focus on the source of truth. (source as in what brings to truth)
Humans are not the source of the truth. The truth is out there whether humans find it or not. We are merely trying to get closer to the truth. Whether you have an impression about someone's age or not, you can only get closer to the date of birth but not down to the exact millisecond. You cannot control the time dimension that makes him age or the rate of regeneration of cells in his body to make him look younger or older. The god is the truth and is the source of all truth.
I agree, I've not claimed that humans create truth or something ??? What is the source of truth in humans doesn't necessarily mean what generates truth, but what leads to it. What brings people to the truth, or closer to it. If you were to think that you had two sources of truth for example, they ought to be coherent. As truth cannot contradict truth. I briefly brought Ibn Rushd because he was a muslim who believed that the Quran is a source of truth, but also believed that reason is a source of truth. However, unlike most muslims (or religious people in general), he had the courage to say that if an interpretation of the quran were to come in conflict with the findings of reason, then the quran ought to be reinterpreted so as to meet the findings of reason, stating that truth cannot negate truth. (which is also what you're trying to do with your struggle to pinpoint something as the ultimate source of falsehood that meets the "reinterpreted" descripton of Jinn, which is fine, good luck to you)
In the traditional judeo-christian human-centric view of the world the human is at the center of the universe and thus his measurement of the truth is what defines truth. In the great reading world view truth is independent of humans and truth is not determined by our measurement. Our measurement is merely an attempt to get closer to the truth that is already out there no matter what we choose.
The individual is at the center of his own life. This is what matters. What judeo christian or whatever worldview is irrelevant. If the individual decides to seek the truth how does he do it ? The individual must be able to seek the truth and find it. (or get closer to it or whatever you prefer, it's not like the truth is a single point that the individual can sit on). I agree that our attempt to measure truth is for the sake of getting closer to the truth. The idea that a measurement instrument for something defines that thing is a crazy idea.
Yes. Scientists use those tools to get closer to the truth in the universe. Scientists don't create truth. The god is not some being in white robes sitting on a cloud. The god is the truth and the universe is created with the truth. It is not a possibility. It is a certainty.
I agree
Indeed controlling our imagination and making it submit to our real self is simple but can be hard because we often forget ourselves and we let the imagination take over.
Initially, it's very much needed to try to understand oneself first, using the tool that we've been gifted with.
I used to think controlling oneself was necessary but as times went by I learned, though I'm still experiencing and reflecting on it, that the goal is not to control oneself but rather to change oneself. From this unreasonable, selfish impulsive individual to a reasonable selfless, thoughtful, intelligent individual. This I think is the purpose of life. A sort of metamorphosis.
I dont think that there needs to be a constant issue in our existence that must be resolved by means of a constant control. But perhaps the issue or conflict could be replaced by harmony by means of change. And the direction of this change is determined by reason. -
we identify / merge with thoughts as we identify / merge with our identity name, family situation, professional ...
There are many things that we identify our-SELF with.
Another good and easy to digest example might be with the avatar(s) on this forum.I deliberately put plural on the noun, because we can also identify our-SELF with many identities.
Emotion is the body's reaction to thought
According to Carl Jung emotion has 'deeper' source than merely our physical body.
Emotion was generated or the product of the 'unconscious mind' and I tend to agree with him.I'm talking about the hell you create when you're a prisoner of thoughts, you struggle internally.
https//quotefancy.com/media/wallpaper/3840x2160/4786666-C-G-Jung-Quote-If-our-religion-is-based-on-salvation-our-chief.jpg
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The human being is endowed with a brain to reason, a hidden imaginary, I do not consider it as a second entity nested with the human being. There are a lot of repetitive, unnecessary, destructive thoughts.
The Jinn can lead humans astray, yet sayateen are among us and among the jinn. What comes from the human or the jinn, God only knows (desires, passion ..).
When we identify with a thought, it controls our life, takes power over us. The little inner voice is within us, depends on our experience, our heritage, on the known.
Peace Houriya,
2424 On the day their tongues, hands, and legs testify to what they used to do.
Are those second entities nested with the human being with their own ability to testify? Yes. We control them as best as we can but sometimes we can't control them.
Imagination gives humans the ability to invent technology and beauty (when controlled) as well as lie and deceive (when out of control). Please translate "jinn". Are they ghosts? Are they some red humanoids with horns and holding a fork? We all know what drives us to lie and do wrong. It is our imagination and not a ghost or a red humanoid with a tail or a serpent or a reptilian or whatever other imaginary nonsense. As you said, there can be a lot of repetitive, unnecessary, destructive thoughts... what allows them to be such is an uncontrolled imagination that makes us imagine that they are important and necessary... when the imagination runs wild they control us. Instead, we should make the imagination submit to our real self.
Peace,
Ayman
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I find your thoughts very interesting, Ayman. However, Jinn were created before humans according to the Qur'an. How could our imaginations be created before us? Would we not logically have preceded our own imagination?
Thank you Wanderer for your question. Imagination as a concept as a creative energy was created before humans. Can't you see the beauty in the universe that was created before humans? Just like the atoms in our body, the iron in our blood, the concept of living cells that form every organ were all created before humans. Those building blocks were created before humans.
Peace,
Ayman
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Yes impression is based on imagination. Imagination simply being the human ability to form mental images. It's a pretty vague thing. I brought impression specifically as a counter-example to your initial claim that "fantasy" is the "only" source of falsehood.
Imagination is an ability.
What you consider "controlling imagination" is simply reasoning logically about what you imagine, and not just anything you "imagine", specifically the things that you imagine while being unaware, that is, false perceptions and impressions...You simply are applying reason to what you think. Which you should. Just like you would to the things you are looking at, listening to, talking about ..etc.Generally one should reason about what they have in mind, and about their motives. Good logic brought the "problem" of reason being used as an argumentation tool rather than a tool to find truth. Which is true, just like if you had a group of criminals "reasoning" about HOW to weasle their way into a bank to steal the money. But what about reasoning about the WHY ? that's where you find that they have their reasons for wanting to steal the bank but it's all just nonsense that is selfishly motivated.
Controlling imagination is both about what you explicitly imagine (how to steal money) and what you casually imagine while unaware (first impression). A thief can imagine a very good plan to steal a bank and then the plan can work and he gets away with the heist. However, this has no bearing on the fact that as far as the universe is concerned this stealing is evil falsehood. At the end, the thief, even if he lives to be a hundred years old, will die and the evil theft that he did will remain as falsehood.
Reason applied to ourselves brings self-knowledge, understanding of ourselves and wisdom, and allows us to rectify our thoughts and behavior.
Yes. Reason that is aligned with the truth in the universe is what brings self-knowledge, understanding and wisdom and allows us to control our thoughts and behavior. On the other hand, an uncontrolled imagination does the exact opposite.
I dont find it intuitive to keep trying to pinpoint things as being "the only source of falsehood" or what not. I understand you're trying to find something which you can project back unto to quran in place of "Jinn", but I find it more intuitive to focus on the source of truth. (source as in what brings to truth)
But human imagination is indeed the only source of falsehood in the universe. There is no other source. By understanding this and having our imagination submit to us as it was supposed to do initially, we can focus better on the truth and serve it.
I agree, I've not claimed that humans create truth or something ??? What is the source of truth in humans doesn't necessarily mean what generates truth, but what leads to it. What brings people to the truth, or closer to it. If you were to think that you had two sources of truth for example, they ought to be coherent. As truth cannot contradict truth.
The paths to the truths will naturally be different since some people are closer to the truth than others. Also, the signs that lead us to the truth will be different from one person to another. It is still one source of truth and each of us having to follow his own straight path to get closer to the source, doesn't mean multiple sources.
I briefly brought Ibn Rushd because he was a muslim who believed that the Quran is a source of truth, but also believed that reason is a source of truth. However, unlike most muslims (or religious people in general), he had the courage to say that if an interpretation of the quran were to come in conflict with the findings of reason, then the quran ought to be reinterpreted so as to meet the findings of reason, stating that truth cannot negate truth. (which is also what you're trying to do with your struggle to pinpoint something as the ultimate source of falsehood that meets the "reinterpreted" descripton of Jinn, which is fine, good luck to you)
It is true that just like we can only get closer to the truth, we can only strife to improve our interpretation of the Quran. Since it is OUR interpretation then it is not truth but is an attempt to get closer to the truth. Certainly, the interpretation of "jinn" as human "fantasy" is closer to the truth than ghosts or some red guy holding a fork or a reptilian. I am open to a better interpretation.
The individual is at the center of his own life. This is what matters. What judeo christian or whatever worldview is irrelevant. If the individual decides to seek the truth how does he do it ? The individual must be able to seek the truth and find it. (or get closer to it or whatever you prefer, it's not like the truth is a single point that the individual can sit on).
It depends on which part of the individual you are talking about. If there are two parts, the human fantasy and the true self, then the true self by definition is part of the universal truth (as per above truth has one source, the god). So by focusing on your true self and making it control your fantasy, you serve the universal truth and its source (which for all intents and purposes is the god).
I agree that our attempt to measure truth is for the sake of getting closer to the truth. The idea that a measurement instrument for something defines that thing is a crazy idea.
Agreed.
Initially, it's very much needed to try to understand oneself first, using the tool that we've been gifted with.
I used to think controlling oneself was necessary but as times went by I learned, though I'm still experiencing and reflecting on it, that the goal is not to control oneself but rather to change oneself. From this unreasonable, selfish impulsive individual to a reasonable selfless, thoughtful, intelligent individual. This I think is the purpose of life. A sort of metamorphosis.
I dont think that there needs to be a constant issue in our existence that must be resolved by means of a constant control. But perhaps the issue or conflict could be replaced by harmony by means of change. And the direction of this change is determined by reason.I agree, understanding the true you (which is by definition part of the universal truth) is needed. The true you is already created, we don't create truth. We simply purify our true self by controlling our fantasy (the only source of falsehood in the universe). So I agree we are changing by purifying ourselves from falsehood.
- Indeed he who has purified it has succeeded.
Peace,
Ayman
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salam ayman
i understand you are sayin the jin are human imagination?
i must disgree with you. i u derstand they are clearly a separate creation (please verify all thr info i write below should i be mistaken)
The God tells is that He told iblis to prostrate to adam but iblis refused and then became of the jinn (from my understanding iblis was an angel before)
The God tells us not to take iblis and his descendants as allies
the ninn worked for solomon pbuh (we are told they dived for him too... i dont see imagination diving)
in surah 72 we are told about a group of jinn that heard the Quran and about what they said and we are also told that when jinn try to steal a hearing from the heavens (high council?) they are followed by projectiles
The God tells us He asks the angels if humans took them as masters and the angels reply no humans took jinn as allies
The God tells us that the devil and his tribe see us from where we do not see them
humans and jinn were created to worship The God
etc etc
jinn are most definately separate creatures
i believe jinn might be angels who disbelieved and fell but there are counter arguments to that example surah 72 mentions that the men from humans took the men from the jinn meaning perhaps there are female jinns? (i understand angels are all “male”)
peace
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i understand you are sayin the jin are human imagination?
i must disgree with you. i u derstand they are clearly a separate creation (please verify all thr info i write below should i be mistaken)It is really hard to define any "creation" as being totally separate. Are the iron atoms in our blood a separate creation? Are our hands that could testify against us on the day of account separate? Yes and No.
The God tells is that He told iblis to prostrate to adam but iblis refused and then became of the jinn (from my understanding iblis was an angel before)
There is no such things in the great reading as a specie called angels. The term MLK ملك means owner/controller. It is not a specie but is a status that is given by the god and taken away by the god (see 326). Iblis was the original imagination that didn't submit to us as commanded by the god and therefore was stripped of his status as a controller.
The God tells us not to take iblis and his descendants as allies
Yes. We should not take the human imagination (the source of all falsehood in the universe) and its descendants as allies other than the god (the source of all truth in the universe).
the ninn worked for solomon pbuh (we are told they dived for him too... i dont see imagination diving)
Indeed all of our technology, including submarines are a product of the human imagination when it submits with the truth in the laws of fluid dynamics.
Not only that but the imagination produced beautiful art and statues for Solomon. It is the human creative energy.
in surah 72 we are told about a group of jinn that heard the Quran and about what they said and we are also told that when jinn try to steal a hearing from the heavens (high council?) they are followed by projectiles
Yes. The allegorical متشابهات passages of the great reading exclusively address the human imagination. As far as trying to penetrate the heavens and the earth and predicting the future, we try to do it using technology, which is a product of our imagination. I am not sure about the exact interpretation of the projectiles but it seems allegorical.
The God tells us He asks the angels if humans took them as masters and the angels reply no humans took jinn as allies
Yes. People who serve a black stone and a black cube in so-called Mecca believe that those idols control the wiping of their sins and can return them sinless like babies. Of course these are not real controllers but are a product of the imagination (jinn). Humans take those imaginary idols as allies.
Also, please notice that we are told in 3441 that most of those going to hell have faith in the imagination (jinn). Obviously we should not have faith in the imagination because it is not real.
The God tells us that the devil and his tribe see us from where we do not see them
Yes. The imagination cannot be seen. You can't see my imagination and I can't see yours. We can't even see our own imagination in our head. However, the imaginaiton is not part of the hidden الغيب since we should have faith in the hidden side but as per 3441 most of those going to hell have faith in the imagination (not the hidden side).
humans and jinn were created to worship The God
No such thing as worship in the great reading. We serve the god. We serve the god by fulfilling our role as good leaders خلفاء of this blessed earth. We accomplish this role by controlling our imagination جن and making it submit يسجد to us with the truth as it was supposed to do from the beginning. For example, when we imagine that we can fly and then we control our imagination and make it submit to us with the truth of the laws of aerodynamics we invent flying machines that can help us fly and help Solomon quickly transport the throne of the queen of Sheba across a great distance.
etc etc
jinn are most definately separate creatures
i believe jinn might be angels who disbelieved and fell but there are counter arguments to that example surah 72 mentions that the men from humans took the men from the jinn meaning perhaps there are female jinns? (i understand angels are all “male”)
peaceThere are no angels with white robes and halos in the great reading. Control is a status given and taken away by the god. And people do imagine men from the imagination (like an imaginary friend).
The interpretation that "jinn" is the imagination is empirically verifiable and is well aligned with all the passages in the great reading. Certainly what entices people to lie and do evil and is the only source of falsehood in the universe is the human imagination ... we all know it for certain... look inside you... you know it is not a ghost or red guy holding a fork or a serpent or any other mythical creature
Peace,
Ayman