I would love to know more about Islam and the prophet Jesus.
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Thank you again for replying! This is good that you listed the verses. I have looked up these verses about Jesus and I appreciate you doing this.
Yes I confirm that I have read the article above. Very well written. We have very much a common foundation of Monotheism. I believe that as well and stand upon it with all my heart.
I just have a few questions...
First, do you think you can explain to me how this verse that you sighted (See below) affirms that Jesus is not God? I don't see that just from the plain reading.
- They disbelieve those who say, “God is the Christ, the son of Mary.” Say, “Who can prevent God, if He willed, from annihilating the Christ son of Mary, and his mother, and everyone on earth?” To God belongs the sovereignty of the heavens and the earth and what is between them. He creates whatever He wills, and God has power over everything.
Also, in the article about misconceptions concerning Islam, it states, "The Quran contains the same truth that was revealed in previous scriptures (e.g. the same message that was given to Abraham, Moses, Jesus and others) and considers itself as the final divine revelation to mankind." Can you please explain to me how the teachings about Jesus in what you call "the gospel" is the same as what has been historically confirmed about the person of Jesus? For example, the Holy Bible is not just a book of teachings about Jesus, but it is an unfolding story about Him told through various historical accounts and eye witnesses. Therefore, the Bible goes on to record the teachings of Jesus from the gospels and in them he affirms this "I and the Father are ONE." (John 1030) He will say things like "Before Abraham was, I AM" (John 85 as you well know, in that last verse, Jesus is referring to a name that was only used of the eternal God. Like the beautiful story (that I do not believe you would deny but correct me if I'm wrong) when God appears to Moses in the burning bush and tells him that His name is "I AM that I AM". It would seem that this statement, that Muslims affirm all the teachings of Jesus and Moses, is contradictory to what has been spoken by these teachers and prophets. Jesus, on multiple historical accounts, claimed to be God. How do you reconcile this?
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Re 517
The concept of God in most people's mind is a being that cannot be destroyed. I think you know very well what 517 says, and in any case we do not just take one verse, we read The Quran as a whole.You answered your own question. The Bible, according to you, is divinely inspired reports about Jesus, not written by him, approx 40-100 years after him, and not preserved in it's original language. The Quran does not reject everything reported in The Bible.There are plenty of articles discussing what The Bible says and what Jesus is claimed to have said in it, giving conflicting results about whether he is God or not. I have looked into it and I cannot see how one can conclude Jesus is God from it. The Quran's viewpoint of him seems to reconcile well, and one could argue clears up the alleged confusion.
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Dear Johnny,
I’m not sure what it is your trying to reconcile - the Quran is very clear on the blasphemy of ascribing a son to God or that Jesus was God.
Even the Jews are bewildered by this new religion that has been created by Christians which screams in the face of monotheism and the teachings of the prophets.
The trinity is a messy business that requires the recipient to perform mental acrobatics with logic and reason (I and the father are one, but I am the son of man, and I call to my father for help, and I eat and bleed like a man, and the devil tempts me...).
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Peace
JESUS THE MESSIAH.
The reality of who was Jesus?
FIRST
TorahOld testament)(The following verse is God talking to David about Solomon)” I will be His Father and he will be my son. I will never take my love away from him, as I took it away from your predecessor. (Chronicles 1713)
Yet the Israelites will be like the sand on the seashore, which can not be measured or counted. In the place where it is said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ they will be called ‘sons of the living G-d. (Hosea 110)
The kings of Israel are referred to as sons of God because they are to be His representatives, ruling in his place on earth over His people.
“I said, You are Elokim; you are all sons of the Most High” (Psalm 826 )
We see that Jesus only said a phrase that was commonly said by Jews in his days, and Jesus did not claim to have a monopoly on son-ship with God. We are all God’s children, Jesus is not the only one and never claimed to be the Begotten one.
SECOND
1.If God came down to earth as a man, one would expect that after the end of His life on earth, and upon His return to heaven, He would be One being not two. This is not in agreement with the following verse in the new testament
“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God” #9 (Mark 1619)
This verse, which speaks about Jesus after he was raised up into heaven, clearly indicates that God and Jesus are not one being, for how can God be sitting on the right hand of Himself?!!
- “…………and he often withdrew into the wilderness and prayed” #10 (Luke 516)
“And when he had sent the multitudes away, he went up on a mountain by himself to pray” #11 (Mathew 1423)
These two verses which speak about Jesus are of great significance. How can Jesus be God if he was praying to God as any other mortal? Who is he praying to?
The Church may well suggest that Jesus was only praying in a symbolic manner so as to teach the people how to conduct prayer. This argument is nevertheless unacceptable because the words “wilderness” and “by himself” indicate that at those specific times, Jesus was all on his own while praying. He could not have been teaching anybody!
THIRD
Jesus himself admitted, on numerous occasions, that whatever power he had was given to him by God. Consider the following verses
“I do nothing of myself” #44 (John 82
“I do as the father has commanded me” #45 (John 1431)
It is quite clear from these verses that Jesus is not speaking about himself. Clearly he is speaking about the Almighty God whom he worships. Beside acknowledging God’s authority, and after performing such miracles, Jesus often prayed and thanked God for giving him such powers. In John’s gospel, and after raising Lazarus, Jesus said
“Father I thank you that you have heard me, and I know that you always hear me.” #46 (John 1141-42)
If Jesus is God, who is he thanking?
FOURTH
Did Jesus make statements regarding his status, the words, the will and the power he used ? Let us find out.
WORDS
Joh 716 Jesus answered them and said, “My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me.
Joh 1424 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.
Joh 1249 “For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.
WILL
Joh 434 Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of him who sent me, and to accomplish his work.
Joh 638 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
Lu 2242 saying, “Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.”
POWER
Joh 530 “I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.
Joh 842 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.
KNOWLEDGE
Mr 1332 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
Mt 2436 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.
Joh 716 So Jesus answered them, “My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me;
STATUS
Mt 721 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
Mr 1018 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.
850 “And I do not seek My own glory; there is One who seeks and judges.
Peace be upon Jesus, he was a prophet,a messenger of GOD and the Messiah.
GOD bless .
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salam
the transgression of saying jesus son ... is a lie that the devil said and humans and jinn fell for it
surah 72 verses 3 and 4
“and Exalted is the Majesty of our Lord, He has not taken a wife nor a son
and the foolish one among us used to say lies about The God”
the foolish one is the foolish one amonsgt the jinn and i understand it is the devil
also, amongst many inconsistencies i can endlessly go on about in the bible as well as about “trinity”, one of them is that the bible mentions satan tempts jesus ... so how can one say jesus to be the son ... or is the ... if he is tempted by the devil and the devil even tells him that he will give him the kingdoms of earth s ... does not The God already own everything?
all existence belongs to The God .. The ONLY God
the devil owns nothing
please ponder well as it is a big transgression to say jesus son ...
there is One God and that is it )
we do not worship the Quran .. the Quran is the final message from The God and a correction of the previous scriptures as they have been altered ... and it is a guide and mercy as well as a warning
peace )
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Hey everyone! My name is Johnny and I am an evangelical Christian.
Hi Johnny welcome
- What is your favorite verse in the Qur'an?
"let there be no compulsion in opinion truth stands out clear from error"
-- 2256- Would you consider the Qur'an to be on the same level as Allah? In other words, is the Qur'an worthy of the same level of respect and worship as Allah Himself?
"On the same level"... intriguing on the way you say that.
I would say "within"...Actually only God exist.
God is an infinity...Thus anything that is finite (has limit, has beginning and end, has border of definition) is within God,
Anything, whether it's media, stone tablet, books, ebooks, beings, form or even thought forms is finite, all have a beginning and eventually will meet it's end.
But at the same it's a manifestation of the infinite.
Thus it's also correct that any form of manifestation are worthy of respect.
As any respect that you've given out to anything will be returned back to you.. law of reciprocity...
As you're actually a form of manifestation as well...But in no way it can be comparable to the infinite, as infinity can only be compared with itself.
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Hello! My first reply is to Wakas. Thank you for your kind and quick reply. As I am trying to be a student, I would love to ask another question. Does the Qur'an itself affirm the inspiration and authority of the Bible? I'm really curious to learn about that. In the Hadith, does Muhammed ever affirm the Bible's authority as well?
You stated in your post "The Bible, according to you, is divinely inspired reports about Jesus, not written by him, approx 40-100 years after him, and not preserved in it's original language". I would love to know where you got this information. There are overwhelming evidence that the bible has been preserved in its original language. The New Testament has more preserved manuscripts than any other ancient document. Please do your research. Have you ever heard of the dead sea scrolls? You can take our english bible we have today, compare it to the original language found in the dead sea scrolls, and you will find the exact wording. https//carm.org/manuscript-evidence Please click this link for more info. Also, I think we have this in common You said that you don't just read one verse of the Qur'an but the Qur'an as a whole. As Christians we believe the same thing. We believe the bible needs to be read as a whole because it is an unfolding story of God and how He accomplished salvation through Jesus who is also God in human flesh.
This last sentence I wrote is where our friend, with the account name "Good Logic", is getting confused, I believe. Good Logic, You quoted many verses from the bible and a lot of them out of their context. I would encourage you to read the bible from beginning to end to see this unfolding story for yourself. You quoted multiple accounts of Jesus' submission to His Father, Jesus thanking His Father, Jesus praying to His Father. The person of Jesus, which is a point we are going to disagree on, is made up of two natures. Jesus is fully God, and at the same time, fully man. This is NOT a contradiction. All of the verse you quoted are speaking directly from the stand point of Jesus' humanity. Let me tell you the story of the whole Bible and hopefully weave together this reality in an understandable way and I would love to hear how you respond.
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth (Genesis 11) All that God created was good and perfect. God exists as ONE essence. He is ONE God but exists eternally in 3 distinct persons Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. (Please read Ephesians 13-14, 2 Corinthians 1314, Acts 53, Matthew 316, Ephesians 21 There is 1 "who" but 3 "whats". (This is a mystery that cannot be fully comprehended with the human mind. But trust me, I uphold a strict monotheism as you do.) This ONE God, Who is eternal and good, decided to make man in His own image and after His own likeness (Genesis 126-27). After God placed Adam and his wife Eve in the garden of Eden, a paradise God had made for them where they can enjoy His goodness and have an intimate relationship with Him, they were deceived by Satan and ate of the tree that they were forbidden to eat from (Genesis 3). Really, this was an attempt to live in autonomy. They would rather worship self rather than God and because of that, they were kicked out of God's good creation. As a result, all of mankind is under the curse of sin and bound by the chains of sin. Everyone born after Adam and Eve were enslaved to sin. All have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 323) But only God can break those bonds. Because God is rich in mercy, He made a promise (Genesis 315). The promise was that through the seed of the woman, He would provide rescue for sinful humanity.
Throughout the Old testament, man tried and tried but could not reach a state of acceptance before God because of their good works. God would raise up human prophets; but they failed. He would raise up human kings; but they failed. He would raise up human priests to be a mediator; but they also failed. Each one of these could not restore true worship and reconcile sinful man back to a holy and righteous God. God has been trying to show humanity since the beginning that man is fully incapable of being good on his own and fully incapable to reconcile himself back to God. That what man needs most, is a new heart. Because of slavery to sin, every man is destined to suffer the wrath of Almighty God and be separated from Him for all eternity in a place the Bible (and Qur'an) calls "hell".
But God is committed to His promise He made in the garden. He will bring rescue and salvation. Here is where Jesus comes in. Jesus Christ is the eternal God (PLEASE read John 11, John 114). He came to earth and took on a human nature. Kind of like when you put on a jacket. When you put on a jacket, you do not change the essence of who you are, right? You simply assume an outer garment that you previously didn't have. Same thing with Jesus Christ. He didn't cease from being God when He came to earth, He simply voluntarily put on human flesh, laying aside divine privileges so that He can identify with humanity and be humanity's perfect representative; the thing that Adam was not able to do. Jesus came as the perfect and better Adam. He is the Christ (Messiah) (Matthew 1616-17). "Good Logic", you pointed out that Jesus was the Messiah. I agree! But can you answer me this what is a Messiah? A Messiah is a savior. If Jesus was not fully God, He could not rescue mankind from his sin. Only God can forgive sin. And when you quoted Jesus saying "why do you call me good? Only God is good." He was not in any way denying HIs deity. He was affirming it! He was saying in essence "Why would you call me good, you know that only God is good." He never told the man he was wrong; he was pointing out that the young man acknowledged His deity. In the gospel of John, Jesus claims these things about Himself starting with the phrase "I AM" which is ONLY used of the eternal God. He said "I AM the light of the world." (John "I AM the way, the truth, and the life. NOBODY COMES TO THE FATHER except through Me." (John 146 Which is the same passage that you quoted). "I AM the door."(John 109-16) "I AM the resurrection and the life" (John 11). Etc. Colossians chapter 1 says that "He is the image of the invisible God. The first born over all creation." It also says about Jesus that "For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together" (SEE Colossians chapter 1).
Here's what I need you to see This God who rightly and justly should judge all of mankind and pour out His wrath, voluntarily became a man so that he can die in the place of guilty sinners. Jesus is the God-man. This means that the same God who demands a penalty for my sin, actually became the payment for my sin. Look at John 316 "For God so loved the world, That He gave HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, that whoever believes in Him will not perish, but have everlasting life." Jesus Christ willingly laid his life down on a cross and rose again 3 days later from the grave proving that He was God! You see, you pointed out to me that the Qur'an shows that Jesus rose again from the dead "Rather, God raised him up to Himself. God is Mighty and Wise." (415. (I know that the verse right before shows that Jesus didn't actually die but only appeared to die but there is so many historical accounts of this man Jesus of Nazareth who was crucified on a Roman cross if you want more info on this let me know). This is simply a very different Jesus than what you are teaching me about in the Qur'an. Do you agree?
Here's my point My hope and salvation doesn't come from me. It comes from who Jesus Christ is, and what He has done. Those who simply beleive in Jesus will be made righteous, be reconciled to a Holy God, will have the ability to have relationship with God and know God forever. This really is eternal life; to know God. And its only possible through Jesus (John 173). Look at Jesus' words here "All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him (Matthew 1127). I want to know from you, in Islam, where does your hope come from? When I read the Qur'an, I see overwhelming evidence that your salvation is dependent upon whether you do enough good works. And when you do enough good works before Allah, then you will be forgiven but there is still no guarantee that you will be granted eternal life in heaven. Am I correct on this? Doesn't Surah 23102-103 say this? "“Then those whose balance (of good deeds) is heavy, they will attain salvation But those whose balance is light, will be those who have lost their souls, in hell will they abide (23102-103)"
I encourage you today my Muslim friend; God loves you! If you simply turn to Him in repentance, you'll be accepted by the Father, not because of the good works you can do on your own, but because of Jesus' perfect works. His death is sufficient to save you if you trust Him. You can lay aside your good works. You can lay aside your attempts to reach a holy God and believe that God came to seek and to rescue man from His sin. "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast." (Ephesians 28-9)
Does any of this make sense? I would love to know your thoughts! Please don't take any of this as me being rude or brash. I am just sharing my views and the story of Jesus which I believe is the best news in the world! I would just love charitable discussion
I would love to know your thoughts on this man Named Nabeel Qureshi- https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKSuGHXUY_0
He wrote a book called "Seeking Allah, Finding Jesus"
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Does the Qur'an itself affirm the inspiration and authority of the Bible?
https//www.misconceptions-about-islam.com/misconception.php?id=3
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/covenant-quran.htmlI would love to know where you got this information. There are overwhelming evidence that the bible has been preserved in its original language.
The manuscripts are in Greek. There is variance in view what Jesus spoke/preached in. Please provide your evidence he preached the Gospel in Greek.
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Salam jzacchio, chapter 112 sums up the quranic response to Christianity
Chapter 112
In the name of God, the Almighty, the Merciful.
1121 Say "He is God, the One,"
1122 "God, the Indivisible,"
1123 "He does not beget, nor was He begotten,"
1124 "And there is none who is His equal."Hey everyone! My name is Johnny and I am an evangelical Christian. I'm studying Islam and would love to open a discussion about what you believe about Allah and Jesus. I guess to get this kicked off my first question would be a two fold question 1) What is your favorite verse in the Qur'an? and 2) Would you consider the Qur'an to be on the same level as Allah? In other words, is the Qur'an worthy of the same level of respect and worship as Allah Himself?
Hoping to learn from you all and hopefully we can have an open minded discussion.
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Jesus Christ willingly laid his life down on a cross and rose again 3 days later from the grave proving that He was God! You see, you pointed out to me that the Qur'an shows that Jesus rose again from the dead "Rather, God raised him up to Himself. God is Mighty and Wise." (415. (I know that the verse right before shows that Jesus didn't actually die but only appeared to die but there is so many historical accounts of this man Jesus of Nazareth who was crucified on a Roman cross if you want more info on this let me know). This is simply a very different Jesus than what you are teaching me about in the Qur'an. Do you agree?
Jesus (Yeshu) is NOT (or rather, WAS not) Esau (Isa). These are two different Hebrew names.
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599509.0
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Here's what I need you to see This God who rightly and justly should judge all of mankind and pour out His wrath, voluntarily became a man so that he can die in the place of guilty sinners. Jesus is the God-man. This means that the same God who demands a penalty for my sin, actually became the payment for my sin.
I'm intrigued by your definition of "God-Man", what do you mean by it?
Are there "God-Orangutan", "God-Dolphin" and "God-Tree" as well?And what "sin" did you do to this "God-Man"?
When and where did you done it?Here's my point My hope and salvation doesn't come from me.
Salvation from what???
Can you explain?I encourage you today my Muslim friend; God loves you! If you simply turn to Him in repentance, you'll be accepted by the Father, not because of the good works you can do on your own, but because of Jesus' perfect works. His death is sufficient to save you if you trust Him.
God does loves us, and loves you and them as well.
God's love is an unconditional love.... thus no need for somebody to die for it...This God is the Father of all things..
That's why Jesus calls Him "Abwon d'bish maiya" in Aramaic, although not 100% accurate but it's translated as "Heavenly Father".His unconditional love is similar to the love of a father to his children.
Which Jesus beautifully explained in his parable of prodigal son.
I hope you do know where to find the parable in the gospel right?Shalom
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Salam,
Not sure this topic really belongs to the introduction section...
Here are my personal views, which do not reflect the actual teaching of Islam, nor reflect the majority of opinions in this forum.
But maybe, you could find some interests in it.First of all, in a strict sense, Qur'an doesn't speak of "Jesus" but someone it calls "Issa bin Maryam".
In Arabic, Jesus is Yashu'a, not Issa. Arab Christians do not say Issa but Yashu'a.Sure, there are some common points and relationships between Christian Jesus and Qur'anic Issa.
Reasons for Qur'an to say "Issa" instead are not simple. I try to address that issue below and propose an hypothesis.A big difference between Qur'an teaching about Issa and Christian Jesus is that Qur'an strongly denies that Issa is God or is the Son of God.
The reasons why Jesus is called "the Son of God" in the Gospels are manifold.
One reason is explained in this passage of Matthew, chapter 2241 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
42 "What do you think about the Messiah? Whose son is he?" "The son of David," they replied.
43 He said to them, "How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him 'Lord'? For he says,
44 "'The Lord said to my Lord "Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet."'
45 If then David calls him 'Lord,' how can he be his son?"Verse 22.44 actually refers to the Psalm 109 in the Septuagint https//www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/septuagint/chapter.asp?book=24&page=109
Ps 109.1 The Lord said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.It should be noted that both Matthew and the Septuagint use the word Kýrios for "Lord" (EIPEN o Kýrios tó Kyrío mou), while in the Massoretic (Hebrew) Bible, the word for "Lord" is not the same between the first occurrence and the second one (in Hebrew neum Yahweh la-doni).
This proves that the author of Matthew was inspired by the Greek Septuagint and not a Hebrew Bible, since the trick only works with the Septuagint.
So while the Pharisee believed that the Messiah was the son of David, Jesus in this passage of Matthew, referring to the Septuagint Psalms said that the Messiah is the Son of God and not the son of David.
Actually, in Old Testament, the "Son" was already a metaphor for the Messiah. In numerous passages of the OT, we find occurrences where a son is desperately awaited, e.g. Abraham and Sarah, Rachel, Lea, etc.
The son is the promise that the man or the woman will get posthumous life in the world to come.
This is typically a messianic sign.So that these people are desperately waiting for a son means metaphorically that Israel is waiting for redemption and salvation through the advent of the Messiah, which is the only one to let Israel as well as pagans enter in the 'olam hoba, the world to come in the Jewish eschatology (https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_eschatology#Olam_Ha-Ba).
Another reason for the New Testament (not only the Gospels, but also the epistles) to call Jesus "the Son of God" is likely because the influence of Philo of Alexandria.
In the 1st century CE, Judea was under Greek influence since the conquest of Alexander the Great three centuries before, and was under Rome domination, and the Romans spoke Greek here (not Latin).This Greek influence included not only the Greek language, but likely also the Greek philosophy.
On the other hand, the Greek philosophers were likely purer monotheists than the Jews themselves.
For instance, Heraclitus or Xenophanes rejected the too anthropomorphic vision of the gods in the Greek myths.For the Greek philosophers, there was the Noos, which was the Intellect, or the First Cause, of the world.
And between the Noos and the created world, there was the Logos, which is to be understood as the creative reason or the creative discourse that generated the world.So the Noos doesn't create, it is the Logos who creates.
As Judea was under Greek influence and Jews were confronted, especially in Alexandria, to the Greek philosophy, it is likely that Judaism was confronted to the Greek objection that the God of the Pentateuch was too anthropomorphic and therefore not different from a pagan Greek god.
Things changed when the Jewish philosopher Philo of Alexandria reinterpreted the Pentateuch and showed that in the Torah, when God interacts with His creation, He does this through His "Dabar", the Verb in Hebrew, i.e. the Logos.
So Philo achieved to provide an interpretation of the Torah that was compatible with the Greek philosophy.
In Philo's views, the Logos was the "first-born of God".See https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philo%27s_view_of_God for a detailed explanation.
This is important because Philo's interpretation opened the door to the conversion of Greek pagans to some form of Judaism, the one compatible with the Greek philosophy.
This would be achieved through the New Testament and the Gospels.
In the Gospel of John, in the prologue, we read
1 In the beginning was the Word (Logos), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.
5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
(...)
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.So in this passage, according to verse 3, it is the Logos who creates, exactly like in the Greek philosophy.
Then, according to verse 14, he was made flesh under the form of Jesus-Christ.But this is so counter-intuitive that the Nicene creed proceeded otherwise
I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.In the Nicene creed, it is the Father, and hence not the Logos, who creates things.
As for the Holy Spirit, it simply comes from the Jewish theology as the spirit that inspires the prophetic light of Israel.
So here, we have an explanation, through only a sketched one, of why the Gospels speak of Jesus as the Son of God.
It is perfectly logical, and makes sense in the context of Judaism in the 1st century CE.Now, in the context of the 7th CE, the Qur'an preacher held this notion of Jesus as God and Son of God responsible for sectarian hatreds.
And he was right.
Monophysitism, Dyophysitism, Miaphysitism, Jacobites, Nestorianism, Arianism, Docetism, etc.
All these sects were divided on the question of the nature of Jesus-Christ, whether he was god or human, whether he was 100% god or 100% human, or 50% god and 50% humans.
All the quantum combinations have surely been tried by the Christian theologians of that time.And it was not only a matter of intellectual debate, but it also led to persecuting each other.
So in Qur'an, we can read in Surah 19 Maryam
1935 God was never to take a son, be He glorified. If He decrees a matter, then He simply says to it 'Be,' and it is.
1936 And God is my Lord and your Lord, so serve Him. This is a straight path.
1937 Thus the sects disputed between them. Therefore, woe to those who have rejected from the scene of a terrible Day.Verse 19.35 is actually the conclusion of the passage of Zechariah, desperately waiting for a son, and Mariam, delivering in pain.
Qur'an comes back to the original meaning of the son in the Jewish teachings the son represents the promise of redemption and salvation.
The meaning of those passages is that it is not God who needs a son (verse 19.35), but Israel who needs (or needed) redemption and salvation.
I took Free-Minds translation of Qur'an, but in my opinion, translation of verse 19.35 does not reflect enough the meaning of the Arabic text Subĥānahu does not exactly mean "be He Glorified", but "be He far away from impurity", and this is exactly why God doesn't need a son.Another verse in Qur'an is this one
5116 And God will say "O Issa, son of Maryam, did you tell the people to take you and your mother as gods other than God?" He said "Glory to You, I cannot say what I have no right of. If I had said it then You know it, You know what is in my self while I do not know what is in Your self. You are the Knower of the unseen."
which often raises misunderstandings between Christians and Muslims.
Muslims often say that this verse is because Christians say that Mary is the mother of Jesus, hence the mother of God.
And the Christians say that they never took Mary as a goddess, and that believing that Jesus-Christ is God does not make her a deity besides God.In my opinion, both are wrong here. Muslims do not understand this verse, and Christians were not the only one to believe in Jesus as God.
Actually Qur'an emerged from a Jewish-Gnostic milieu (I believe the Elchasaites).
In the Nag Hammadi manuscripts, we find some texts, like the Apocryphon of John (http//www.gnosis.org/naghamm/apocjn-davies.html), where there is this passageHe said to me,
“John, why doubt?
Why be afraid?
Don’t you know this image?
Be not afraid.
I am with you (plural) always.
I am the Father
The Mother
The Son
I am the incorruptible
Purity.And a bit later
I have come to teach you
About what is
And what was
And what will be
In order for you to understand
The invisible world
And the world that is visible
And the immovable race of perfect humanity.So, for the Gnostic milieu having written the Apocryphon of John, God was a different Trinity than in Christianism.
God was the Father, the Mother and the Son.The Apocryphon of John also promises to reveal or unveil the unseen.
This possibility is categorically rejected in Qur'an in verse 5.116 the knowing of the Unseen only belongs to God.Another difference between Qur'anic Issa and Christian Jesus is that Qur'an calls Maryam "sister of Aaron"
1928 "O sister of Aaron, your father was not a wicked man, and your mother was never unchaste!"But Aaron was the brother of Moses, and in the Pentateuch Maryam is indeed the brother of Aarom and Moses.
The obvious but mistaken explanation is that Muhammad had little knowledge of the Scriptures, so he made a confusion between the two Maryams, the first one the sister of Aaron, and the second one, 1500 year later, the mother of Jesus.Others try to explain that "sister of Aaron" is just because people at the time of Jesus took the name of pious people before them.
Others try to explain that Qur'an actually speaks of two Maryams, and the one of this verse is not the same as Maryam the mother of Jesus.
And so on, and so on.
The correct explanation though is that both the Gospels (and even large part of the New Testament) and Qur'an, or at least this kind of passage in Qur'an, were written with according to the literary codes of the Jewish Midrash. See https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midrash
Essentially, the midrash works as a machine that produces new stories in order to expound one or several points of the Law or God will, from other stories, by allusion of verses, wordplay and metaphors.
As such, the midrash doesn't care about contradictions and chronology or anachronisms. In the midrash, you will also find Job talking to Pharao.
So like Jesus is a figure of the Gospel midrashim, Issa is a midrash in Qur'an created for the purpose of expounding the divine will.
Both could be tied to some historical facts, but it is a mistake to read them that way.Maryam is actually the Virgin of Israel that goes throughout the history of Israel. It midrashically represents the community of Israel.
That's why we find her in various writings under different forms, in the Pentateuch, in the Gospels under different forms, one being the mother of Jesus, in Qur'an.
We also encounter Elizabeth as one of the daughters of Aaron in Luke 1.5, but sometimes the translation or the interpretation is to make her the descendant of Aaron, not the direct daughter, see https//biblehub.com/luke/1.htm.
This divergence in translations reflects that the Aaron in Luke 1.5 has certainly something to do with Aaron the brother of Moses, even if he lived at the time of Herod and this is exactly what the Gospel midrash of Luke wants us to hear.
So when Qur'an says of Maryam "sister of Aaron", it really means it in the midrashic sense.
Nowhere in Qur'an is it made mention about Issa of Romans and trial.This passage
1919 He said "I am the messenger of your Lord, to grant you the gift of a boy (ghulam) who is pure."
1920 She said "How can I have a boy when no mortal has been with me; and I have never been unchaste?"simply underlines the reluctance of Israel, here figured by Maryam, to act as the Light of the nations and to welcome a messenger that will carry the prophetic light to the nations.
The word "ghulam" was chosen, instead of e.g. walad, or bani, exactly for midrashic purposes, because it is partially in assonance with 'olam, in order to let us hear that the figure in question is meant to make Israel and mankind enter into the world ('alam) to come.
Another difference between Qur'anic Issa and Christian Jesus is that Qur'an denies crucifixion of Issa ben Maryam
4157 And their saying "We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, messenger of God!" And they had not killed him, nor crucified him, but it appeared to them as if it was so. And those who dispute are in doubt regarding him, they have no knowledge except to follow conjecture; they did not kill him for a certainty.
4158 Instead, God had raised him to Himself; and God is Noble, Wise.There are several reasons for this denial.
First of them is, as I said above, Qur'an emerged from a Jewish-Gnostic milieu, and Gnostics in general denied that Christ as a man suffered from crucifixion.
Either someone else was crucified, like for the Docetes.
Or only the carnal envelope of Jesus was crucified, but Jesus as a whole was not, and continued his teachings several years after, like in the Gospel of Thomas.Another reason may be linked to the underlying reason of why Qur'an says Issa and not Jesus.
And this underlying reason would connect Qur'an to the congregation that left us the manuscripts of Qumran and Massada, seven centuries before Qur'an.In 1897 was found some documents in a geniza in Cairo. One of them was a document called the Damascus Document (https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damascus_Document) dated from the 8th or 9th CE.
However, in 1947, a copy or fragments of this Damascus Document were also found among the Dead Sea Scrolls.
So there was already a continuation from the Dead Sea Scrolls to Cairo, eight or nine centuries later.In this document, we can read
Then they realized their iniquity and knew that they had been at fault. For twenty years, however, they remained like blind men groping their way, until at last God took note of their deeds, how that they were seeking Him sincerely, and He raised up for them one who would teach the Law correctly, to guide them in the way of His heart and to demonstrate to future ages what He does to a generation that incurs His anger, that is, to the congregation of those that betray Him and turn aside from His wayCompare with Qur'an 3.164
3164 Certainly God has bestowed grace upon the believers by sending them a messenger from among themselves reciting His revelations and purifying them and teaching them the Book and the wisdom, although they were before in manifest straying.Strange how similar both passages look, no ?
Sounds like the Qur'an messenger viewed himself not so different from the Teacher of Righteousness, the More Zadok, of some Qumran manuscripts, so those manuscripts likely have continued to circulate during centuries.
The Qur'an word to mean "to reveal" is "nazzala" in Arabic, which basically means "to rain". And the word More in Hebrew, which means teacher, also means the rain.Flavius Josephus, in Antiquity of the Jews, narrates how under Alexander Jannaeus, Judaism was divided into two sects, the Pharisee, and the Sadducees, and that Jannaeus was favourable to the Sadducees.
He also narrates that the Pharisee were so strongly opposed to Jannaeus that he made 800 Pharisee crucified (http//www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0146%3Abook%3D13%3Awhiston+chapter%3D14%3Awhiston+section%3D2)Now as Alexander fled to the mountains, six thousand of the Jews hereupon came together to him out of pity at the change of his fortune; upon which Demetrius was afraid, and retired out of the country; after which the Jews fought against Alexander, and being beaten, were slain in great numbers in the several battles which they had; and when he had shut up the most powerful of them in the city Bethome, he besieged them therein; and when he had taken the city, and gotten the men into his power, he brought them to Jerusalem, and did one of the most barbarous actions in the world to them; for as he was feasting with his concubines, in the sight of all the city, he ordered about eight hundred of them to be crucified; and while they were living, he ordered the throats of their children and wives to be cut before their eyes. This was indeed by way of revenge for the injuries they had done him; which punishment yet was of an inhuman nature
After the death of Janneus, his wife Alexandra succeeded him, and she was more favourable to the Pharisee, so the Pharisee took revenge (http//www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0146%3Abook%3D13%3Awhiston+chapter%3D16%3Awhiston+section%3D2)
However, the queen also took care of the affairs of the kingdom, and got together a great body of mercenary soldiers, and increased her own army to such a degree, that she became terrible to the neighboring tyrants, and took hostages of them and the country was entirely at peace, excepting the Pharisees; for they disturbed the queen, and desired that she would kill those who persuaded Alexander to slay the eight hundred men; after which they cut the throat of one of them, Diogenes; and after him they did the same to several, one after another,
According to Josephus, they killed the man they held for responsible of their persecution during the time of Jannaeus Diogenes.
It sounds like the congregation that left us the Qumran manuscripts was actually very favourable to Jannaeus, as shown by the manuscript 4Q448, called the "Hymn to King Jonathan" https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4Q448.
Jannaeus comes from Aramaic Yannaï, which means Jonathan.It also sounds like at least the Gospel of Luke held Jannaeus in high esteem, since Luke narrates in Chapter 19 a parable that is inspired from the story narrated by Flavius Josephus
11While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once.
12He said “A man of noble birth went to a distant country to have himself appointed king and then to return.
13So he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas. a ‘Put this money to work,’ he said, ‘until I come back.’14“But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, ‘We don’t want this man to be our king.’
15“He was made king, however, and returned home. Then he sent for the servants to whom he had given the money, in order to find out what they had gained with it.
(...)
24“Then he said to those standing by, ‘Take his mina away from him and give it to the one who has ten minas.’25“ ‘Sir,’ they said, ‘he already has ten!’
26“He replied, ‘I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what they have will be taken away.
27But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.’ ”This sounds really like the story of Alexander Jannaeus whose subjects hated him and he made kill some of them in front of him on his return to Jerusalem.
Moreover, in Luke Chapter 2, we read in the genealogy of Jesus
the son of Heli, the son of Matthat,the son of Levi, the son of Melki,
the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph,
Son of Melki son of Jannai could probably have been or have wanted to mean "son of Melki Jannai", i.e. son of King Jannaeus, making Jesus a descendant of King Alexander Jannaeus.
Some manuscripts found at Qumran, like the Book of Enoch, have only been known through the Christian tradition, never through the Jewish rabbinic tradition, so there is also a connection between the congregation of Qumran and early Christianism.
In Book V of Maccabees chapter XXXII, Diogenes is mentioned as the chief of the Sadducees.
But this expression in Hebrew could very well be More Zadok !So it is likely that this Diogenes mentioned by Flavius Josephus and Book V Maccabees was actually the More Zadok of the Qumran congregation at the time of Alexander Jannaeus.
According to Flavius Josephus and Book V Maccabees, Diogenes was killed in revenge by the Pharisee, but it sounds like the Qumran manuscripts give a different account, see https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicked_Priest.
According to the manuscript 1QpHab, col. 11, lines 3–8, the Wicked Priest simply followed the Teacher of Righteousness to his place of exile, not that the Teacher of Righteousness was killed.Interpreted, this concerns the Wicked Priest who pursued the Teacher of Righteousness to the house of his exile that he might confuse him with his venomous fury. And at the time appointed for rest, for the Day of Atonement, he appeared before them to confuse them, and to cause them to stumble on the Day of Fasting, their Sabbath of repose.
So it sounds like Flavius Josephus and the one who wrote the Book V Maccabees had only conjectures about the killing of Diogenes.
So far so good, but what has this story of Diogenes to do with Issa ?
Here we are Diogenes in Greek means "made by God", and when translated into Hebrew could be either עֲשִׂיאֵל 'Asiel or עֲשָׂיָה Asayah, and an approximate transliteration from Hebrew to Arabic could give something like عِيسَى Issa, modulo an extraneous ya between the 'ayn and the sin.
This could also explain the origin of the name "Essenes" mentioned by Josephus and Philo and that is tentatively given to the congregation of QumranWe can see also a parallel between the conjecture about the killing of Diogenes the Teacher of Righteousness and the conjecture about the killing of Issa ben Maryam in Qur'an.
There are additional parallels that can be drawn between Gospel Jesus, Qur'an Issa and Joshua the successor of Moses but I will stop here, it's already too long.
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Hello Jefar! I'd love to answer your questions. Thank you for responding!
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What I mean by God-man is that the person of Jesus if 100% God and yet 100% man at the very same time. Fully God, Fully man. If this appears as a contradiction I can (if you want me to) explain to you how it is not a contradiction although it is a mystery. God the Son dwelt in heaven in eternity past but then took on a human nature when he came to earth in the person of Jesus. You believe the gospel accounts right? Take a look at John 11 "In the beginning was the Word. The Word was with God, and the Word WAS GOD." and then in the very same chapter it says in verse 14 "and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld His glory; the glory as of the only begotten of the Father. Full of Grace and Truth" Can you tell me what you think of these verses?
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You asked "what sin did I do to this God-man"? Romans 323 tells us "ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God". I have sinned in thought, word and deed. This means that I chose to rebel against God and chose to worship myself and other things instead of Him alone. I possess a sinful nature because of the sin of Adam. And therefore, the Bible tells us that we are "by nature children of wrath" Ephesians 2
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You asked "Salvation from what?" Well, that's a great question. This is what I need salvation from "The wages of sin is death..." (Romans 623) The great problem in the world is sin which is man's rebellion against God's law and the result is death; spiritual death, and physical death. Death is what every man deserves for breaking God's command. Because God is a good judge He must punish sin and pour out His wrath upon sinners. I cannot save myself. I do not possess the power to save myself because all I want is sin and to rebel. Jesus Christ, the God-man, died in the place of sinners because of His great and amazing love! This is called "grace" and "mercy". It is undeserved favor of God! He gives us what we don't deserve. And His mercy is Him NOT giving us what we DO deserve.
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You said this
"God does loves us, and loves you and them as well.
God's love is an unconditional love.... thus no need for somebody to die for it..."
I agree with you that God does love all people. But can I ask you something? If Allah's love is unconditional toward you, then why do you have to do good works in order to earn His love and favor? For example the Qur'an states “Then those whose balance (of good deeds) is heavy, they will attain salvation But those whose balance is light, will be those who have lost their souls, in hell will they abide (23102-103)" This verse in the Qur'an says "salvation" as well. I ask you the same question Salvation from what?
Here is the good news of Jesus and this is good news for you, my friend God's love is unconditional, yes. But ONLY If you belong to Jesus and He is your savior. The reason is because God does have conditions. Jesus said "Be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect" (Matthew 54. BUT the good news is that Jesus fulfilled ALL of God's conditions! That's why it is so important for Him to take on a human nature and become flesh because only a man can die physically for sin and stand in the place of sinners, but only GOD can live perfectly, forgive sin and abolish it forever! So if you repent and believe this good news, God's unconditional love will be upon you forever! God offers Himself to you as savior right now, not because of your good works that you have done but because of who GOD is and what HE has done! Heaven is a place where you can KNOW God intimately and worship Him unhindered. Heaven will be heaven NOT because of the rewards or gifts you get from God, but heaven will be heaven because God is the ultimate, all-satisfying gift and supreme treasure. God is calling you to look away from yourself because you cannot by your own good works or submission to God's law earn favor with God and He is calling you to look to Christ because He is the only perfect one who can save and set you free from the bondage of death.
Does any of this make sense? I Hope to hear back from you!
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Hello Jefar! I'd love to answer your questions. Thank you for responding!
- What I mean by God-man is that the person of Jesus if 100% God and yet 100% man at the very same time. Fully God, Fully man. If this appears as a contradiction I can (if you want me to) explain to you how it is not a contradiction although it is a mystery. God the Son dwelt in heaven in eternity past but then took on a human nature when he came to earth in the person of Jesus.
Well if that's the definition, then it seems Jesus is not alone because I'm also God the Son and so are you and so are everyone.
You believe the gospel accounts right? Take a look at John 11 "In the beginning was the Word. The Word was with God, and the Word WAS GOD."
I don't think I agree with John here...
It seems we used the same word God but referring to a totally different concept.When I'm using the word "God" I was referring to the same concept as what's being referred as "Abwon d'bishmaiya" by Jesus. Or Tao by Lao Tse, Or Brahman by the Hindus.
God has no beginning thus has no end. He or should I say It is infinite on any dimension.
Due to it's infinity thus the only comparison is to itself. It is what It is, He is who He is.and then in the very same chapter it says in verse 14 "and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld His glory; the glory as of the only begotten of the Father. Full of Grace and Truth" Can you tell me what you think of these verses?
I don't understand what he's saying here, it seems me and John are referring to a totally different concept.
- You asked "what sin did I do to this God-man"? Romans 323 tells us "ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God". I have sinned in thought, word and deed. This means that I chose to rebel against God and chose to worship myself and other things instead of Him alone. I possess a sinful nature because of the sin of Adam. And therefore, the Bible tells us that we are "by nature children of wrath" Ephesians 2
Oh you rebelled against the infinite creator? the father of everything?
Really? Are you sure?
How's that even possible?Who wrote such statement in this "Romans 323" anyway?
What was he thinking about?And who is this Adam?
Why his sin became your sin?
Have you met this Adam?Children of wrath?? Whose wrath is it?
The author's wrath??- You asked "Salvation from what?" Well, that's a great question. This is what I need salvation from "The wages of sin is death..." (Romans 623) The great problem in the world is sin which is man's rebellion against God's law and the result is death; spiritual death, and physical death. Death is what every man deserves for breaking God's command. Because God is a good judge He must punish sin and pour out His wrath upon sinners. I cannot save myself. I do not possess the power to save myself because all I want is sin and to rebel. Jesus Christ, the God-man, died in the place of sinners because of His great and amazing love! This is called "grace" and "mercy". It is undeserved favor of God! He gives us what we don't deserve. And His mercy is Him NOT giving us what we DO deserve.
Again... who is this person who authored "Romans"?
What's his cultural background?
What is he (or she) was thinking about here?Death is not the opposite of living, death is the opposite of birth.
Death is a natural process just like birth is a natural process all in accordance to the law of the one infinite creator, the father of all.
And nothing, not even one being can violate the law of the one infinite creator.
Let alone perform a 'rebellion' towards it.It seems the author think that God is a kind of a human king, imposing law which he cannot enforced.
And often faced a rebellion from another human who wanted to be king, performing a coup d'etat..Such thought process is common within Greek or Roman cultural background though.
The figure of Zeus and Jupiter, the bosses of gods.. who often faced rebellion from another gods and goddesses.But again I'm an Atheist of those kind of gods and goddesses.
They might exist, either as a real human king or ruler which get mythologized through folklore and legend and somehow get promoted to 'god' status.The one infinite creator was, is and always will be full of grace and loving, and definitely I don't need any 'salvation' from the love of the one infinite creator and so do you or anyone else.
Have you pondered about the parable of prodigal son as told by Jesus which I've mentioned earlier?- You said this
"God does loves us, and loves you and them as well.
God's love is an unconditional love.... thus no need for somebody to die for it..."
I agree with you that God does love all people.
Not only people, God loves everything... dolphin, orangutan, ants, aliens...
As everything are actually His children...But can I ask you something? If Allah's love is unconditional toward you, then why do you have to do good works in order to earn His love and favor? For example the Qur'an states “Then those whose balance (of good deeds) is heavy, they will attain salvation But those whose balance is light, will be those who have lost their souls, in hell will they abide (23102-103)" This verse in the Qur'an says "salvation" as well. I ask you the same question Salvation from what?
Very good question, I don't understand that either..... I disagree with the author of the Quran there...
It seems that specific part is inline with the author of that Romans book..
Perhaps they share similar cultural background? and the same line of thinking? who knows...There is however something called the law of reciprocity..
It's among the law of the one infinite creator, the father of all.
Thus it's impossible to break by anyone..
What goes around comes around.. any love you share will be the love you earned back, any hatred that you share will be the hatred you earned back.That's why Jesus recommend to love even our enemy.
Because the love we share we will earned back.
And also to forgive others, besides we will earned it back it will also liberate us from the sufferings of having hatred and resentment within ourselves.Furthermore Jesus also recommend not to judge, again it's due to the law of reciprocity.
By the same standard we judged others we will also be judged!
And when we don't judge we will not be judged.And lastly I also agree with Jesus recommendation of having the attitude of "Let God's will be done!".
It is the attitude of acceptance, a glad acceptance not a forced acceptance due to fear or being threatened.
In arabic such attitude is named as "islam".. not Islam the religion.. but islam the attitude.And not only Jesus who recommend such attitude, Lao Tse and Siddhartha also recommended such attitude.
By peacefully and glad-fully accept everything we will cleansed our spirit from hatred, fear, resentment and any other negative emotions.https//i.pinimg.com/originals/3f/dc/f0/3fdcf0afbc9f91e5ddc61f5f0152991f.jpg
Here is the good news of Jesus and this is good news for you, my friend God's love is unconditional, yes. But ONLY If you belong to Jesus and He is your savior. The reason is because God does have conditions.
How can you say God's love is unconditional and then you contradict it with saying that God has a condition in your next sentence? rotfl
Again I don't think I need a salvation from the love of one infinite creator.
Instead I welcomed it gladfully! Please don't save me from the love of one infinite creator.And I don't think you or anyone else need such kind of 'salvation' either.
Heaven is a place where you can KNOW God intimately and worship Him unhindered. Heaven will be heaven NOT because of the rewards or gifts you get from God, but heaven will be heaven because God is the ultimate, all-satisfying gift and supreme treasure. God is calling you to look away from yourself because you cannot by your own good works or submission to God's law earn favor with God and He is calling you to look to Christ because He is the only perfect one who can save and set you free from the bondage of death.
Isn't Jesus said that the Kingdom of Heaven is within all of us?
https//i.pinimg.com/originals/df/ad/c1/dfadc1bab6c3f74cd0679b130548d311.jpg
And not only Jesus, Lao Tse saith the same thing..
https//i.pinimg.com/originals/f7/dd/a3/f7dda3b8013b0444cd78aa768ee40aa4.jpg
I personally agree with Jesus and Lao Tse..
And recommending you to look inside yourselves and then you can see by yourselves... -
Hey Jefar! Thanks for responding. I love how willing you are to talk about these things! I wish it could be in person instead but this will have to do for now
"Well if that's the definition, then it seems Jesus is not alone because I'm also God the Son and so are you and so are everyone."
I agree in one sense that we are children of God only in the sense that we are His "creation". See, this is where I would disagree. I do not believe everyone is God's child. Just because God is the creator of all does not automatically mean that all people are God's children. I am only God's child because He has adopted me into His family. My sin has separated me from God and I need a mediator. That mediator is Jesus Christ. He died in my place so that I could become a child of God forever.
"I don't think I agree with John here...
It seems we used the same word God but referring to a totally different concept."Okay I would love to know what you mean by "God" then. I am referring to God Who is a person. All-powerful, Eternal, Sovereign, and good. Do you believe the Qur'an? Or do you pick and choose what you like and don't like? If the Qur'an affirms the authority of the "gospel" and the claims of Jesus, then we have to ask ourselves What is true? Its not about what we agree with or dont agree with; or what we like or what we dont like. It is about what is true. It would seem that if my view of God is every different than yours, somebody has got to be wrong.
"I don't understand what he's saying here, it seems me and John are referring to a totally different concept."
What John is referring to when he says "Word" is the Eternal Word; essentially He is referring to God Himself, who had no beginning and no end. This Eternal Word "became flesh". This means that God has revealed Himself and He revealed Himself in the person of Jesus; the Eternal Word of God.
"Oh you rebelled against the infinite creator? the father of everything?
Really? Are you sure?
How's that even possible?"Yes. I have rebelled against God. You have too, my friend God tells us not to lie. Have you lied? I have. God tells us not to steal. Have you stolen? I have. God tells us not to lust after our neighbors wife or husband. Have you lusted after someone who wasn't yours? I have. God tells us not to hurt our neighbor. Have you done that? I have. This makes all who have fallen short of God's standard sinners. We rebel against God's law all the time. We prefer to worship ourselves more than God. This creates separation from God! God made everything perfect and good and we chose to go our own way. Now God must punch sin because God is HOLY and GOOD and cannot dwell with sinful humanity. That's why we NEED a savior. You NEED salvation. Jesus said these words; tell me what you think of them "I AM the way, the truth, and the life. NO ONE comes to the Father except through me." (John 146) This isn't my own interpretation. This is what Jesus Himself said.
By the way the one who wrote the book of Romans is a man named Paul. He was a Jewish man who was an instrument used by God to write 2/3's of the new testament.
"The one infinite creator was, is and always will be full of grace and loving, and definitely I don't need any 'salvation' from the love of the one infinite creator and so do you or anyone else.
Have you pondered about the parable of prodigal son as told by Jesus which I've mentioned earlier?"No, we don't need Salvation from God's love. That is not what I said. We need salvation from our sin and the death that it brings. God is not a human king. You are correct. And yes I know the parable very well. It is found in Luke 15. But do you remember what happened before the Father welcomed his son back into his arms? His son rebelled against his father and chose to go his own way. But the beauty of the story is the Father is suppose to represent God and His amazing love toward sinners who come to Him by faith!
I would disagree with your definition of death. Death simply means separation. Death is the separation of the soul from the body. The body dies but the soul lives on.
"Not only people, God loves everything... dolphin, orangutan, ants, aliens...
As everything are actually His children..."Not disagreeing with you that God loves all His creation. But I disagree with your last statement. I explained why earlier.
"There is however something called the law of reciprocity..
It's among the law of the one infinite creator, the father of all.
Thus it's impossible to break by anyone..
What goes around comes around.. any love you share will be the love you earned back, any hatred that you share will be the hatred you earned back.That's why Jesus recommend to love even our enemy.
Because the love we share we will earned back.
And also to forgive others, besides we will earned it back it will also liberate us from the sufferings of having hatred and resentment within ourselves."To this let me ask you some follow up questions. So are you saying that you get what you deserve? So then are you a perfect person? Does this mean that the better you are, the more of God's favor you get? Can I ask you how that is working out for you? Are you able to live up to God's standards perfectly? You are putting a weight upon yourself that you were never able to bear. Do you see? You are making yourself your own savior. You are putting yourself in the place of God. But this always fails because it puts a weight upon us that we are not able to bear so we find ourselves feeling more and more frustrated when we fail. When we do good, we find ourselves judging others self-righteously because they don't live as good as we do. Don't you see? we NEED a savior. We can't be good enough to earn favor with God because even though we can do good things and good works (I believe that you, Jefar, do good works too!), those good works are not enough to make a Holy God accept us forever. For example, lets say I murder a family down the road because it makes me feel good. Can you imagine if I stood before the judge and after the judge pronounced me guilty for killing a family, I go on to tell him "Oh but Mr. Judge. You don't understand. Look at all the good things that I have done!"? What should the judge do in this situation? If the judge lets him go even though he is guilty, would he be a good judge or a bad judge? Do you see, my friend? If we all get what we deserve, then we are all on our way to hell because we've broken God's law (just like I explained earlier).
"How can you say God's love is unconditional and then you contradict it with saying that God has a condition in your next sentence?
Again I don't think I need a salvation from the love of one infinite creator.
Instead I welcomed it gladfully! Please don't save me from the love of one infinite creator."Haha I can see why this looks like a contradiction. Sorry if I didn't make it clear enough. Let me see if I can make it more understandable.
God love is amazing but God is Holy which means He has conditions. He created every person to worship him perfectly and to obey His commands because in His commands is life and satisfaction. God commands Adam to not eat the fruit in the garden. The Qur'an affirms the same story right? What does Adam do? He rebels against the creator and eats the fruit. Wasn't God giving Adam a condition? He says in essence "If you eat this tree, you will die. If you stay away from this tree, you'll enjoy the life I want for you". God's lays out conditions all throughout the Old Testament. If the people obey God, they receive His blessing. If they don't, they will fall under His wrath. Adam's sin affects all of humanity because he was suppose to be representing all of mankind. Because Adam had other children, his sin was passed down to his other children. This is why the Bible is a beautiful unfolding story of God's grace. Although everyone is born with a sinful nature because of Adam's sin, Jesus comes and perfectly obeys God's law. No one else on earth can obey God's law. That's why Jesus needed to come and obey God's law and by His death on the cross and resurrection from the dead, He satisfied the wrath of God so that you and me wouldn't be children of His wrath any longer if we only place our faith in Him. In short, Jesus met all of God's conditions. So through our faith in Jesus, we enter into the unconditional love of God. By believing in Jesus, God will wash away all of our sin and forgive them and treat us as if we have lived a perfect life. God will love us unconditionally and will no longer remember our sin. He makes us perfect because of what Jesus has done on the cross. Does that make sense? Let's say I owe you A LOT of money. I am in debt to you but I don't have any money. But I have to pay it back. Let's say some one else comes and pays the money in my place. He pays my debt and you get your money back. Now I don't owe you the money any more because the person paid it all for me. Let's also say that after he pays my debt, he deposits 1,0000000 dollars into my bank account. That's kind of like what God did for us. We sinned and owed Him a debt. He gave humans a perfect life and we messed it up. We owe Him. But Jesus comes along and pays our debt for us and then gives us His own righteousness as a gift. We didn't deserve it or earn it. It's a free gift. Isn't that good news? All we have to do is believe in Jesus and we'll receive all of God's forgiveness and righteousness!"Isn't Jesus said that the Kingdom of Heaven is within all of us?"
What do you think this means?
Jesus did say this, yes. But He did not mean what you mean. Jesus is the King over all things. When we believe in Him and follow Him, His presence is constantly within us and He will rule as King in our hearts. We will live as people who love and submit to King Jesus. That is what Jesus meant by His kingdom is inside of us.
I hope this makes sense! I am praying for God to show you the beauty of who He truly is!
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I agree in one sense that we are children of God only in the sense that we are His "creation". See, this is where I would disagree. I do not believe everyone is God's child. Just because God is the creator of all does not automatically mean that all people are God's children. I am only God's child because He has adopted me into His family. My sin has separated me from God and I need a mediator. That mediator is Jesus Christ. He died in my place so that I could become a child of God forever.
Then this is among the key differences of our view.
I don't believe but I know that everything is God's children.
Every finite things is a part of infinity.
There are no things which is outside and can be outside of an infinity.
If a being think that it's possible then I think that being is under his own hallucination that separation is possible.And your sin or whatever cannot separate you from the one infinite creator.
You don't need a mediator because you are always connected and part of the one infinite creator.It's one's own hallucination that he/she/it are and can be 'separated' thus make one believe that he/she/it need an 'internet router' to reach the one infinite creator.
And again the one infinite creator does not need anyone to 'die' or 'suffer' as a condition for His love.
I found such idea to be preposterous.Having said that; I do aware that throughout human history; some group of human seems to be very keen to make a business by playing a role of a 'broker' to the one infinite creator thus came up with such fantasy idea, or should I say 'blatant lies'. It's like creating the demand for his product, creating first a problem to create demand for his solution.
In Jesus era, an example of such group was the Judaist priest, the Sanhedrin.
They think they play the role of 'sole mediator' to the one infinite creator.
The group who beheaded Jesus's cousin and the group who captured and punished Jesus with death punishment.This group of practitioner of organized religion viewed Jesus and his cousin as a threat for their business.
A threat for their well being, a threat to their power, control and influence over Jewish population.Because Jesus and friends group message was message of unity and not separation from the one infinite creator.
The Father is accessible by everyone, the Father knew one's prayer even before he/she said it.
When everyone can reach the Father easily and directly, there is no more need of a mediator isn't it? no need of a priest.
Thus a threat to the priest's businesses.But as time progress, and Jesus group left from this physical world.. the same pattern continues..
A Church then being setup to play the same businesses model as the Sanhedrin.
A council of Islamic cleric are being setup in the exact model as the Sanhedrin.
War among religion is basically a struggle over power and influence... each claiming the 'divine right' as sole mediator to the one infinite creator.
A role which actually nobody are in need of.Just like the Sanhedrin they play the same game and employ the same tactics.
A tactic based on GUILT and FEAR.
Threat, punishment and torture become their tools to keep their flock of sheep inline.Okay I would love to know what you mean by "God" then. I am referring to God Who is a person. All-powerful, Eternal, Sovereign, and good.
The one infinite creator which encompasses all things...
No beginning, no end.
The one who also created time and space in the first place, thus has no bound to the constraint of time and space.Perfectly fit the description of Lao Tse's Tao or Jesus Abwon d'bishmaiya.
Do you believe the Qur'an? Or do you pick and choose what you like and don't like? If the Qur'an affirms the authority of the "gospel" and the claims of Jesus,
Nope I don't 'believe' in any of those books.
However I do found that some part of description within those books resonate with me.It would seem that if my view of God is every different than yours, somebody has got to be wrong.
Looks like it might be... but I found it normal since mistake is a mean for one's to learn.
We all learn by making mistakes..Yes. I have rebelled against God. You have too, my friend )
This makes all who have fallen short of God's standard sinners. We rebel against God's law all the time. We prefer to worship ourselves more than God. This creates separation from God! God made everything perfect and good and we chose to go our own way. Now God must punch sin because God is HOLY and GOOD and cannot dwell with sinful humanity. That's why we NEED a savior. You NEED salvation. Jesus said these words; tell me what you think of them "I AM the way, the truth, and the life. NO ONE comes to the Father except through me." (John 146) This isn't my own interpretation. This is what Jesus Himself said.Nothing is capable for 'rebellion' against the one infinite creator, it's just impossible.
Thus you don't need to worry about the things which are clearly nobody is capable of doing.But again your description above fit the tactics pattern of the 'broker' business.
Induce guilt, create fear and then sell the solution.Have you checked whether this John actually met Jesus himself?
Did this John really wrote what he hears directly from Jesus?
Because I find it odd to find that Jesus is trying to sell his 'sole broker' hood to the one infinite creator.
Looks like Jesus in this John's book has decided to do the same business as The Sanhedrin. )But again thanks for the offer of 'mediator' but I don't need it since I can reach my own heavenly father easily and directly..
And actually so does everyone else...By the way the one who wrote the book of Romans is a man named Paul. He was a Jewish man who was an instrument used by God to write 2/3's of the new testament.
Ah another person... not Jesus himself... and this Paul has met Jesus directly?
Because I disagree with this Paul on many things, to me it seems that this Paul is a confused person.But again everyone is an instrument of the one infinite creator...
Through confusion we can find clarity, through hatred we can learn love, through mistakes we can learn truth.
Somebody need to play the role of the contrast.. to make few things shine and stand out..
We cannot perceive light without the contrast of darkness.To this let me ask you some follow up questions. So are you saying that you get what you deserve? So then are you a perfect person?
Yes... by perfection here means balanced... everyone and everything are perfect in their own way and the role they play.
Does this mean that the better you are, the more of God's favor you get? Can I ask you how that is working out for you? Are you able to live up to God's standards perfectly?
Yes I'm now living out the events as laid out by the one infinite creator.
And things has been working well for me, thank you for asking, and I hope things has been working well for you too.Within those events there are lessons to be learned...
I would say those events has been quite balanced..
That's actually what perfection is; balanced...You are putting a weight upon yourself that you were never able to bear. Do you see? You are making yourself your own savior.
Like mentioned above and earlier, I don't need a 'salvation' from the love of the infinite creator.
You are putting yourself in the place of God. But this always fails because it puts a weight upon us that we are not able to bear so we find ourselves feeling more and more frustrated when we fail. When we do good, we find ourselves judging others self-righteously because they don't live as good as we do.
Are you feeling frustrated?
Because I don't feel any frustration.. and I don't judge things or anyone as good or bad either...
I just observe and try to learn something..."Isn't Jesus said that the Kingdom of Heaven is within all of us?"
What do you think this means?It means what it said it means..
Kingdom of God is here, there and everywhere.
We are all inside God in the first place, separation is impossible and broker / mediator is not needed.And the easiest way to reach to God is to reach within ourselves..
Thus it's actually reaching in and not reaching out..PS to quote is very simple just put the opening with the marking of bracketed quote and then close it with back slash bracketed quote. Or you can select the text and click "insert quote" button on the editor. It's the button on the second row near the "#" button.
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Hey everyone! My name is Johnny and I am an evangelical Christian. I'm studying Islam and would love to open a discussion about what you believe about Allah and Jesus. I guess to get this kicked off my first question would be a two fold question 1) What is your favorite verse in the Qur'an? and 2) Would you consider the Qur'an to be on the same level as Allah? In other words, is the Qur'an worthy of the same level of respect and worship as Allah Himself?
Hoping to learn from you all and hopefully we can have an open minded discussion.
Plese read
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9609978.0
