There is No Morality without Religion

Neptin

Actually this thread should've been titled, "There is no such thing as Morality." Since, at the end of the day, there does not exist an objective frame of reference for deciding right and wrong. And even religion is not an objective frame of reference.

But that said, at least religion offers the only frame of reference for morality that is consistent and has been unanimously trusted for ages. Which brings me to the reason for this thread.

The opponents of religions often say that we don't need religion or revelations to decide right from wrong, and that all we need is Reason and Empathy. For instance, they may say that "We know intuitively that murder or theft is wrong, without reading the 10 commandments."

So, the atheists, deists and of course the God aloners in the Qur'anist movement assume that in absence of religion, a form of moral unity may be attained by a population of humans based upon reason and empathy. And this is deeply flawed.

Reason isn't consistent, let alone objective outside the laboratories of natural sciences. For instance, is it moral or immoral for a destitute, homeless, 3 weeks pregnant woman to abort her fetus? Human reason is severely limited by experience and intelligence.

Empathy is deeply subjective because it is hampered by mood, emotion and most importantly, your sensitivity. For instance, why is killing an innocent person immoral, but killing a sheep moral?

So, where then is morality derived? One that is consistent and least subjective. It derives from an authority, such as the word of God - the scriptures. This is where religion comes in.

In the end, religion don't offer an ideal or accurate moral system, but neither does atheism, deism, or "God alone". What is respectable about organized religion is the unanimity on moral issues it brings about, which becomes a stepping stone for an harmonious society.

Jafar

You are 100% correct on observing that morality (a.k.a the standards of 'good' and 'bad&#039 is subjective.

Islamic empire conquering Sassanian empire is good for the Caliphate and bad for Persian dynasty.
Islamic empire expansion to Roman empire is good for the Caliphate and bad for Roman emperor.
German 3rd Reich conquering France Republic is good for Germany and bad for the French.
Abolishment of slavery is good for the slaves and bad for the slave masters.
Work outsourcing from US company to India is good for Indian laborer and US companies while bad for US laborer.
And so on and so on..

But there is an universal law that nobody can break, called Law Of Reciprocity.

https//2.bp.blogspot.com/-Ni1xZZ9xfOc/V2vM_MTgbzI/AAAAAAAABIA/jNaAGihooU8tJl2DsWyu_Id3KFHdNK7wwCK4B/s1600/GoldenRule-2-720409.jpg

What you do to 'others' eventually shall be returned to you.
What goes around comes around..

There are many other 'derivatives' law as consequences of Law Of Reciprocity. Such as

The love you share shall be the love you received.
The fear you spread shall be the fear that you feel within you.
The wealth that you spend will be the wealth that you earn.
The standard that you apply to judge others shall also be used to judge you.
And so on.. and so on..

As such empathy is introduced into the picture, to find the balancing of each point of views.
And also used to gauge whether an action or event might be good for the overall point of views or it's actually a zero-sum, (The good of some at the total expense of bad for others).

Next topic that I recommend you to ponder is this "Law Of Reciprocity".
Why it is that so?
How can what we did to others shall be returned back to us?

But just in case that is not among your interest, and your main interest is to actually creating an exclusive club and come up with a justification for formation of a new exclusive club.Then this question is more relevant.

What is it that you see as lacking in you as such that you see forming a new exclusive club will provide you?

good_logic

Brother jafar is giving a homework to ponder.
I ask a simple question
What religion was Luqman
According to Qoran,Luqman advised his son about morality

We have endowed Luqmãn with wisdom "You shall be appreciative of God." Whoever is appreciative is appreciative for his own good. As for those who turn unappreciative, God is in no need, Praiseworthy.
وَلَقَد ءاتَينا لُقمٰنَ الحِكمَةَ أَنِ اشكُر لِلَّهِ وَمَن يَشكُر فَإِنَّما يَشكُرُ لِنَفسِهِ وَمَن كَفَرَ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ غَنِىٌّ حَميدٌ
Recall that Luqmãn said to his son, as he enlightened him, "O my son, do not set up any idols beside God; idolatry is a gross injustice."*
وَإِذ قالَ لُقمٰنُ لِابنِهِ وَهُوَ يَعِظُهُ يٰبُنَىَّ لا تُشرِك بِاللَّهِ إِنَّ الشِّركَ لَظُلمٌ عَظيمٌ
We enjoined the human being to honor his parents. His mother bore him, and the load got heavier and heavier. It takes two years (of intensive care) until weaning. You shall be appreciative of Me, and of your parents. To Me is the ultimate destiny.
وَوَصَّينَا الإِنسٰنَ بِوٰلِدَيهِ حَمَلَتهُ أُمُّهُ وَهنًا عَلىٰ وَهنٍ وَفِصٰلُهُ فى عامَينِ أَنِ اشكُر لى وَلِوٰلِدَيكَ إِلَىَّ المَصيرُ
If they try to force you to set up any idols beside Me, do not obey them. But continue to treat them amicably in this world. You shall follow only the path of those who have submitted to Me. Ultimately, you all return to Me, then I will inform you of everything you have done.
وَإِن جٰهَداكَ عَلىٰ أَن تُشرِكَ بى ما لَيسَ لَكَ بِهِ عِلمٌ فَلا تُطِعهُما وَصاحِبهُما فِى الدُّنيا مَعروفًا وَاتَّبِع سَبيلَ مَن أَنابَ إِلَىَّ ثُمَّ إِلَىَّ مَرجِعُكُم فَأُنَبِّئُكُم بِما كُنتُم تَعمَلونَ

Here is more morality and wisdom from Luqmaan's Advice

"O my son, know that even something as tiny as a mustard seed, deep inside a rock, be it in the heavens or the earth, God will bring it. God is Sublime, Cognizant.
يٰبُنَىَّ إِنَّها إِن تَكُ مِثقالَ حَبَّةٍ مِن خَردَلٍ فَتَكُن فى صَخرَةٍ أَو فِى السَّمٰوٰتِ أَو فِى الأَرضِ يَأتِ بِهَا اللَّهُ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَطيفٌ خَبيرٌ
"O my son, you shall observe the Salat. You shall advocate righteousness and forbid evil, and remain steadfast in the face of adversity. These are the most honorable traits.
يٰبُنَىَّ أَقِمِ الصَّلوٰةَ وَأمُر بِالمَعروفِ وَانهَ عَنِ المُنكَرِ وَاصبِر عَلىٰ ما أَصابَكَ إِنَّ ذٰلِكَ مِن عَزمِ الأُمورِ
"You shall not treat the people with arrogance, nor shall you roam the earth proudly. God does not like the arrogant showoffs.
وَلا تُصَعِّر خَدَّكَ لِلنّاسِ وَلا تَمشِ فِى الأَرضِ مَرَحًا إِنَّ اللَّهَ لا يُحِبُّ كُلَّ مُختالٍ فَخورٍ
"Walk humbly and lower your voice - the ugliest voice is the donkey's voice."
وَاقصِد فى مَشيِكَ وَاغضُض مِن صَوتِكَ إِنَّ أَنكَرَ الأَصوٰتِ لَصَوتُ الحَميرِ
Do you not see that God has committed in your service everything in the heavens and the earth, and has showered you with His blessings - obvious and hidden? Yet, some people argue about God without knowledge, without guidance, and without the enlightening scripture.
أَلَم تَرَوا أَنَّ اللَّهَ سَخَّرَ لَكُم ما فِى السَّمٰوٰتِ وَما فِى الأَرضِ وَأَسبَغَ عَلَيكُم نِعَمَهُ ظٰهِرَةً وَباطِنَةً وَمِنَ النّاسِ مَن يُجٰدِلُ فِى اللَّهِ بِغَيرِ عِلمٍ وَلا هُدًى وَلا كِتٰبٍ مُنيرٍ

I do not see morality coming from organised religions. I see it inspired by GOD to all who want to search their soul. to know GOD.
However you are right in that morality comes from GOD s instructions/scriptures.
GOD bless.
Peace.

Jafar

Brother jafar is giving a homework to ponder.
I ask a simple question
What religion was Luqman
According to Qoran,Luqman advised his son about morality

I don't know, I never met this Luqman, and did you?
What religion that this Luqman identify himself with?
But anyway does it matter?

If he lived before the Quran was being written then certainly he never read the Quran thus I can say that he's definitely NOT a Muslim (tm), Sunnis, Shiites, Quranist or Hadithist.

I do not see morality coming from organised religions. I see it inspired by GOD to all who want to search their soul. to know GOD. However you are right in that morality comes from GOD s instructions/scriptures.

Isn't God the source of everything?
By everything here really mean every-things.

I see your sentences contradicting each others.
You are right those who want to be enlightened just need to wish it so.
But scripture(s) is not mandatory, it just one among trillion of channels.

God enlightenment is also open to those who are eye blind or illiterate in any script system or writings.
Enlightenment is very much possible without any scripture as evidenced by many past seekers who eventually wrote a scripture in his/her life.
And yes enlightenment usually came by experiencing or observing or even participating in 'negative events'.
As those are needed to create a contrast.

Morality, the gauge of good and bad is subjective, but there are natural laws which nobody can break already in place thus everyone can gauge that for him/herself as they will experience both if not all point of views.

A simple example
Winning a sport match is it good or bad?
At first observation it seems that it's good for the winner and bad for the losers. (zero sum), thus a sport match can be labeled as 'evil' because it's zero sum.

Yet as long as the winner can perceived losing a match to also be 'good' then in overall it's acceptable.
And it can be and he/she will experienced losing a match in addition to winning a match.
We call this attitude now as becoming a 'good loser' or showing 'good sportsmanship'.

A real life simple example,
Larry Bird used to 'hate' Magic Johnson due to the rivalry between the two on basketball.
Larry won and lose some and so does Magic he won some and lose some.
And nobody enjoyed losing when it happened, thus they label it as 'bad'.

But now; many years later, when asked who is his greatest teacher on basketball.
Larry will say Magic, and Magic will say Larry.
And both of them love and respect each others.
Losing to his rival now being perceived as also 'good experience' as from the event they will perform self evaluation on what went wrong in order to improve their basketball play. An enlightenment in the domain of basketball.

amin

Peace Neptin,

Yes Religion is Good but becomes bad when there's no space for moderation and flexibility and go against the natural law, this natural law is what i call God's law, its a lot more flexible, filled with mercy for everyone. So to me, the Quran gives us clues and ask us to follow God's natural law.

Morality comes from life long experiences of a community, Religion is bringing in some order to the community and thereby to the individual, now a days Govt does this moral policing, some govts ban abortion some not. Does abortion always bad at all cases? So it becomes subjective.

Here we can see some people are religiously vegetarians, and the most important reason they give is eating meat gives bad luck or brings in bad karma, and some have specific week days like Tuesday and Saturday to not eat nonveg, so its all about the community and here people follow customs even at the family level, like family God and their own rituals. We just cant deny them their right? so it finally comes to natural law what it accepts is quiet Ok and think there can be ignorance but Blind beliefs are always bad.

good_logic

Jafar, the contradiction comes from you misunderstanding my post.

I was not talking about man s religion ,my point was exactly this

I don't know, I never met this Luqman, but I can easily deduce his religion..
What religion that this Luqman identify himself with? I certainly can have a good guess-God inspired /gave him wisdom. Hence believer and follower of GOD s system/way . The religion of GOD. Yes there is only one deen/religion. Submission to GOD s system.
But anyway does it matter? You can see now why it matters,can t you?

Just to clarify for you.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Neptin

You are 100% correct on observing that morality (a.k.a the standards of 'good' and 'bad&#039 is subjective.

Islamic empire conquering Sassanian empire is good for the Caliphate and bad for Persian dynasty.
Islamic empire expansion to Roman empire is good for the Caliphate and bad for Roman emperor.
German 3rd Reich conquering France Republic is good for Germany and bad for the French.
Abolishment of slavery is good for the slaves and bad for the slave masters.
Work outsourcing from US company to India is good for Indian laborer and US companies while bad for US laborer.
And so on and so on..

But there is an universal law that nobody can break, called Law Of Reciprocity.

https//2.bp.blogspot.com/-Ni1xZZ9xfOc/V2vM_MTgbzI/AAAAAAAABIA/jNaAGihooU8tJl2DsWyu_Id3KFHdNK7wwCK4B/s1600/GoldenRule-2-720409.jpg

What you do to 'others' eventually shall be returned to you.
What goes around comes around..

There are many other 'derivatives' law as consequences of Law Of Reciprocity. Such as

The love you share shall be the love you received.
The fear you spread shall be the fear that you feel within you.
The wealth that you spend will be the wealth that you earn.
The standard that you apply to judge others shall also be used to judge you.
And so on.. and so on..

As such empathy is introduced into the picture, to find the balancing of each point of views.
And also used to gauge whether an action or event might be good for the overall point of views or it's actually a zero-sum, (The good of some at the total expense of bad for others).

Next topic that I recommend you to ponder is this "Law Of Reciprocity".
Why it is that so?
How can what we did to others shall be returned back to us?

The Law of reciprocity as a barometer for making moral choices is good. But it is kind of like empathy. If I'm not opposed to something, I have no problem doing it to others, or others doing it to me. But if others are opposed to it, it becomes a problem.

But just in case that is not among your interest, and your main interest is to actually creating an exclusive club and come up with a justification for formation of a new exclusive club.Then this question is more relevant.

What is it that you see as lacking in you as such that you see forming a new exclusive club will provide you?

I've already answered this question in the past.
It is not so much as what I see lacking in me. It is more about what is best for everyone. It is about the setting the record straight or calling a spade a spade. It is about conservative pragmatism.

Exclusive clubs are what we have because they are what have worked. The alternatives that water down religion or culture in the name of inclusivity, never stood the test of time.

Neptin

Brother jafar is giving a homework to ponder.
I ask a simple question
What religion was Luqman
According to Qoran,Luqman advised his son about morality

We have endowed Luqmãn with wisdom "You shall be appreciative of God." Whoever is appreciative is appreciative for his own good. As for those who turn unappreciative, God is in no need, Praiseworthy.
وَلَقَد ءاتَينا لُقمٰنَ الحِكمَةَ أَنِ اشكُر لِلَّهِ وَمَن يَشكُر فَإِنَّما يَشكُرُ لِنَفسِهِ وَمَن كَفَرَ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ غَنِىٌّ حَميدٌ
Recall that Luqmãn said to his son, as he enlightened him, "O my son, do not set up any idols beside God; idolatry is a gross injustice."*
وَإِذ قالَ لُقمٰنُ لِابنِهِ وَهُوَ يَعِظُهُ يٰبُنَىَّ لا تُشرِك بِاللَّهِ إِنَّ الشِّركَ لَظُلمٌ عَظيمٌ
We enjoined the human being to honor his parents. His mother bore him, and the load got heavier and heavier. It takes two years (of intensive care) until weaning. You shall be appreciative of Me, and of your parents. To Me is the ultimate destiny.
وَوَصَّينَا الإِنسٰنَ بِوٰلِدَيهِ حَمَلَتهُ أُمُّهُ وَهنًا عَلىٰ وَهنٍ وَفِصٰلُهُ فى عامَينِ أَنِ اشكُر لى وَلِوٰلِدَيكَ إِلَىَّ المَصيرُ
If they try to force you to set up any idols beside Me, do not obey them. But continue to treat them amicably in this world. You shall follow only the path of those who have submitted to Me. Ultimately, you all return to Me, then I will inform you of everything you have done.
وَإِن جٰهَداكَ عَلىٰ أَن تُشرِكَ بى ما لَيسَ لَكَ بِهِ عِلمٌ فَلا تُطِعهُما وَصاحِبهُما فِى الدُّنيا مَعروفًا وَاتَّبِع سَبيلَ مَن أَنابَ إِلَىَّ ثُمَّ إِلَىَّ مَرجِعُكُم فَأُنَبِّئُكُم بِما كُنتُم تَعمَلونَ

Here is more morality and wisdom from Luqmaan's Advice

"O my son, know that even something as tiny as a mustard seed, deep inside a rock, be it in the heavens or the earth, God will bring it. God is Sublime, Cognizant.
يٰبُنَىَّ إِنَّها إِن تَكُ مِثقالَ حَبَّةٍ مِن خَردَلٍ فَتَكُن فى صَخرَةٍ أَو فِى السَّمٰوٰتِ أَو فِى الأَرضِ يَأتِ بِهَا اللَّهُ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَطيفٌ خَبيرٌ
"O my son, you shall observe the Salat. You shall advocate righteousness and forbid evil, and remain steadfast in the face of adversity. These are the most honorable traits.
يٰبُنَىَّ أَقِمِ الصَّلوٰةَ وَأمُر بِالمَعروفِ وَانهَ عَنِ المُنكَرِ وَاصبِر عَلىٰ ما أَصابَكَ إِنَّ ذٰلِكَ مِن عَزمِ الأُمورِ
"You shall not treat the people with arrogance, nor shall you roam the earth proudly. God does not like the arrogant showoffs.
وَلا تُصَعِّر خَدَّكَ لِلنّاسِ وَلا تَمشِ فِى الأَرضِ مَرَحًا إِنَّ اللَّهَ لا يُحِبُّ كُلَّ مُختالٍ فَخورٍ
"Walk humbly and lower your voice - the ugliest voice is the donkey's voice."
وَاقصِد فى مَشيِكَ وَاغضُض مِن صَوتِكَ إِنَّ أَنكَرَ الأَصوٰتِ لَصَوتُ الحَميرِ
Do you not see that God has committed in your service everything in the heavens and the earth, and has showered you with His blessings - obvious and hidden? Yet, some people argue about God without knowledge, without guidance, and without the enlightening scripture.
أَلَم تَرَوا أَنَّ اللَّهَ سَخَّرَ لَكُم ما فِى السَّمٰوٰتِ وَما فِى الأَرضِ وَأَسبَغَ عَلَيكُم نِعَمَهُ ظٰهِرَةً وَباطِنَةً وَمِنَ النّاسِ مَن يُجٰدِلُ فِى اللَّهِ بِغَيرِ عِلمٍ وَلا هُدًى وَلا كِتٰبٍ مُنيرٍ

How do you know that Luqman wasn't teaching son from a scripture?

I do not see morality coming from organised religions. I see it inspired by GOD to all who want to search their soul. to know GOD.

What practical proof is there for this? Any body can claim to be inspired by God.

However you are right in that morality comes from GOD s instructions/scriptures.
GOD bless.
Peace.

Agreed.

good_logic

Peace Neptin.

.1-. Quote "How do you know that Luqman wasn't teaching son from a scripture?"

"We have endowed with/given Luqman wisdom" can only mean either from inspiration or both inspiration and/ scripture. i.e direct to Lukman from GOD"

We know for sure he followed and passed on GOD s advice/instructions according to Qoran. This has nothing to do with organised religion as Lulman was singled out in the verse.

2-Quote "What practical proof is there for this? Any body can claim to be inspired by God."

My proof is simple.. I believe Qoran is a scripture from GOD. If Qoran says so, then it is true. As for others it depends on what they think scripture is.
What is scripture for you? Surely if one believes scripture is the word/s of GOD then GOD does not lie. If they do not ,then I have no proof for them. That is fine by me.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Jafar

I've already answered this question in the past.
It is not so much as what I see lacking in me. It is more about what is best for everyone. It is about the setting the record straight or calling a spade a spade. It is about conservative pragmatism.

I don't think you're 100% honest and authentic here, it is very much what you see lacking in you or things which you've identify or associate yourself with and how will you provide such lacking.

Even by mentioning an 'exclusive club' you are focusing on what you think is best for 'some' one and not 'every' one.

Exclusive clubs are what we have because they are what have worked. The alternatives that water down religion or culture in the name of inclusivity, never stood the test of time.

Worked for what purpose?
Perseverance of an 'identity'?

Test of time?
Ok, Let's talk about time.
Compare

How many time has there been until to date?
2, Among that time how many time has there been human presence?
3, Among that time how many time has there been religion that, by name, still survive until today?
If we mark time since the beginning of this universe, it has been 13.7 billion years.
Earliest human remain ever been found, 300,000 years
Hinduism, 4000 years

Hinduism so far only being tested over 2.1 * 10^-10 % of the time.

The number hard to digest isn't it?
Let's convert it to human life as reference so it can be easily digestible, let's take 60 years.
If age of the universe is the regular lifespan of time available for an individual human, 60 years.
Then the oldest surviving religion by name (Hinduism) only exist in 0.4 seconds.

You want to take Islam? 1400 years ago.
Then religion and identity of Islam only exist in 0,14 seconds in comparison if it's human's lifetime.
Will you able to recognize something in front of your eye if it appears only in 0.14 seconds?

And how long will you think this 'new exclusive club' of yours will last?
What kind of significance that you think it will bring?
It may only 'prolong' the existence of an 'identity' by merely very small fraction, before it will meet it's end and forgotten.

Cerberus

if I have my morals and you have yours it doesn't mean there is no morality does it ? you have to be specific. What you mean is that there is no universal morality ? maybe. will see.

Also you are not making any distinction between morality on an individual level or a group level. If it's for an individual, then there is no need for a religion as an authority. The individual can think about what constitutes right or wrong or not think about it, and he could be right or he could be wrong, but it's his authority and his choice.

On a group level, religion works as the authority over the mass, and it serves as a mean to distribute a specific moral guide to a large group of people, and it mostly works; because large group of people are constituted by mostly people who do not think as individuals. The religion can hit right at their base desires and tell them that you will be getting a great REWARD if you do this and that, and you will be receiving a heavy PUNISHMENT for this and that. They don't care about the whys or the logic behind it. They just want to do what they're told to reap the benefit.

Why is reason only good in labs ? Because when you're not biased and you use your reason on an external subject you can reach the truth about that subject. That doesn't make it ineffective in matters outside labs does it ? Personal matters are filled with bias because of the individual's emotional selfish involvement. If in "import matters" such as medicine people have to be very logical and reasoning and without bias in order to be most correct, then why is it in "even more important matters" such as how to live one's life people choose not to be objective and not think rationally about it, and resort to acceptance, wishful thinking etc ? Because of their emotional and selfish involvement etc...what is called satan (personified as some demon whispering)

And by the way, logic is consistent.

At the end....there are philosophies out there (such as stoic philosophy) for individuals who take it upon themselves to think about matters in details, and there are religions out there for large groups to accept and believe in. Both can be a source of morals.

So what you mean to say, and I agree with is There is no morality on a large scale without an authority such as religion to enforce it.

reel

In the end, religion don't offer an ideal or accurate moral system but neither does atheism, deism, or "God alone". What is respectable about organized religion is the unanimity on moral issues it brings about, which becomes a stepping stone for an harmonious society.

I feel God alone wants us to behave in evolved fashion and that can be made possible only if we take the morals from him.

Neptin

Peace Neptin.

.1-. Quote "How do you know that Luqman wasn't teaching son from a scripture?"

"We have endowed with/given Luqman wisdom" can only mean either from inspiration or both inspiration and/ scripture. i.e direct to Lukman from GOD"

We know for sure he followed and passed on GOD s advice/instructions according to Qoran. This has nothing to do with organised religion as Lulman was singled out in the verse.

Alright, then. But the bottomline is that what ever morality Lukman received is verifiable by a scripture. And this is the key I see in this. Organized religion as you see are the outcome of scripture. You can't have a scripture without an organization of individuals devoted to observing the scripture.

For instance, the Qur'an penalize adultery with flogging. How is such a penalty enforceable without a community?

2-Quote "What practical proof is there for this? Any body can claim to be inspired by God."

My proof is simple.. I believe Qoran is a scripture from GOD. If Qoran says so, then it is true. As for others it depends on what they think scripture is.
What is scripture for you? Surely if one believes scripture is the word/s of GOD then GOD does not lie. If they do not ,then I have no proof for them. That is fine by me.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

All in all, it seem you admit that the scripture remains the final frame of reference for morality, not personal inspiration. The only problem of course is you do not acknowledge organized religion as the practical application of scripture. Fair enough

Neptin

I don't think you're 100% honest and authentic here, it is very much what you see lacking in you or things which you've identify or associate yourself with and how will you provide such lacking.

This is like saying that anyone who relate the relevance of Keto diet is looking to benefit from the diet. Just because I enunciate the essence and relevance of exclusive club doesn't mean I'm looking to acquire something I see lacking in me from such club. Like I said, all I'm doing is relating reality however self serving I might seem.

Even by mentioning an 'exclusive club' you are focusing on what you think is best for 'some' one and not 'every' one.

You were the first to use the term 'exclusive club'. I never thought people with a common view or interest organizing themselves as exclusive any more than I think family reunion or Medical Doctor Associations to be exclusive.

Worked for what purpose?
Perseverance of an 'identity'?

More than that. Building communities and societies, developing civilizations etc.

Test of time?
Ok, Let's talk about time.
Compare

How many time has there been until to date?
2, Among that time how many time has there been human presence?
3, Among that time how many time has there been religion that, by name, still survive until today?
If we mark time since the beginning of this universe, it has been 13.7 billion years.
Earliest human remain ever been found, 300,000 years
Hinduism, 4000 years

Hinduism so far only being tested over 2.1 * 10^-10 % of the time.

The number hard to digest isn't it?
Let's convert it to human life as reference so it can be easily digestible, let's take 60 years.
If age of the universe is the regular lifespan of time available for an individual human, 60 years.
Then the oldest surviving religion by name (Hinduism) only exist in 0.4 seconds.

You want to take Islam? 1400 years ago.
Then religion and identity of Islam only exist in 0,14 seconds in comparison if it's human's lifetime.
Will you able to recognize something in front of your eye if it appears only in 0.14 seconds?

OK. Here is a pinch test. Compared to organized religions and exclusive clubs, how long have the alternatives lasted? Can you mention even moment in human history and civilization where exclusive club or organized religion didn't predominate. Any moment of "inclusive club", if there is such a term?