New article: salat timings as per The Quran
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You mean sex is allowed while fasting but coz of Salat Fajr no time for that...
That's super cool understanding .. Really amazed with your logic..Okay.. During fasting according to your understanding you have to break fast when the part of the sun dissapeared... Do you breakfast first or Salat when you see Sun set...
Or just drink water at the sight of sunset and continue to pray until all twilights are over that's almost 90 mints... So stay more 90 mints in hunger... Then eat and drink as usual... That's too much of asking...
Or like conventional people delay Salat by 20 mints during fasting.. That won't work according to what you claim of timing...How would one come to know that sun is risen while praying Fajr to stop or complete Salat...
So his or her concentration will be sunrising... It's hard to know minimum half an hour to know exactly whether sun is risen or not even on a clear day if you are inside.. Or else you should repeat daily same thing to guess we have spent this much time..
How one would know exactly the sun is set of portion is hidden before he or she start pray isha ...Aren't these too much of stress on believers? While God says He wants make things easy for us...
Lol.. Just with curiosity.. Do you really practice in this manner it you just found out it is the way...
@ s1111...
I am sorry.. You are not getting me... Salat has fixed time and waqas claim it is continuing from one point to another.. That's why I brought it...Peace..
Salat is never equal to anytime remembering and praising God.. otherwise God doesn't need to say leave business and Hasten for salat...we can do business and remember God and praise God... Can't we?
Why God call Salat is time fixed and giving it's timing in verse 11114 and 1778...After all by salat and normal remembering all Zikr of Allah...
Doing something at the time what God ordered has a huge difference rather than doing at our convenience.... It's commitment and shear obedience..Salat, saabih, and mere zikr all different... For Salat God says to be clean and not for Saabih and mere zikr... Never told not to near but for Salat...
** For Salat God has given Timing only three as per my thorough understanding...
** For saabih God has given certain timing.. Many a specified time... Example 20130, 5039-40, 5248-49 etc..but not kithab mawkuth...
** For mere Zikr of Allah no timing, any time of our choice....
God says those are the believers who establish Salat and end up as successful and in Janna. 231-10.. One example..
So given timing shouldn't collide with Salat and saabih since both Salat and saabih not same... . But it really collides according what waqas explained.
If one says above ** points are same... I doubt he or she understood Quran ...
Even malaika do saabih and not Salat... No evidence....Ponder if 1778 is Isha salat... God could have explained in 1778 the timing of Fajr as well in the following manner... Establish Salat Duluki shams (sun set) to Ghashak Lail (darkness of night) and from white thread of Fajr to sunrise... But God was not interested in any such explanation.. But only explained One salat... For waqas that is Isha of his choice but for me it is middle salat... But remember God didn't skip Fajr Salat in 11114 ...explained both Salat in one verse.. But strangely again explained in 1778... That's far-fetching... Beyond reality... Ask everyone to Self why God explained additionally isha Salat if 1778 is isha while we can clearly Know Salat isha time by verse 11114..
God says when you rise up, sabih the name of your Lord.. Is it salah though it has a time. .No ...
With all above I deduce salat has three fixed timing... Hope anyone would ponder on my understanding and compare with Quran
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You mean sex is allowed while fasting but coz of Salat Fajr no time for that...
Rephrasing what you said to show how illogical and self-contradictory your statement is
You mean sex is allowed while abstaining but coz of Salat Fajr no time for that
That's super cool understanding .. Really amazed with your logic..
Thanks but we don't even need salat-timing to know this as Quran says abstinence begins from the white thread of dawn/fajr. It just so happens the way I interpret it perfectly coincides with this practice anyway.
Okay.. During fasting according to your understanding you have to break fast when the part of the sun dissapeared
Rather than making a baseless claim about what my understanding is please quote what I have actually said.
It's simple. Abstinence is till the night (which begins when the sun is below the horizon). One would likely be doing ablution about this time anyway thus having a drink of water is rather simple, thus if one wishes to end their abstinence then observe salat al isha that is fine in my opinion. If one wishes to end their abstinence after salat al isha that is also fine in my opinion. There is no right or wrong for this issue as per Quran. Rather than making baseless/subjective objections please present some actual Quranic evidence to the contrary.
What is rather amusing is that you seem to be making out these are problematic issues when these alleged issues would be present in every understanding.
But perhaps I'm wrong and maybe your "thorough understanding" has no issues whatsoever. If so please create your own thread with your own alleged "thorough understanding" for all to see. -
Peace all
Below is a small excerpts of waqas's article...
Why The Quran has redundant and potentially misleading repitition is not discussed by the author, e.g. why mention Fajr twice. From my experience, 20130 is a frequent cause of issues for those advocating 5 salat daily from Quran
Why you ask others why Fajr is repeated twice while you failed to answer still why salat Isha is repeated twice while Fajr once ?
To be clear if in fact the starting point of salat Isha is at the Setting point of Sun and Fajr finishes at the sunrise..
Then... God would have stated without any ambiguity simply in 11114 Establish Salat At the TWO Ends of Night... What is two ends of night just before sunrise... And just after sunset.. But wa zulafan minal lail.... (but nearness portions of Night)... No need to bring Day into picture while Salat is during night...
If sunrise and sunset can be two ends of Day why can't it be two ends of Night?
Coz the main issue is sunrise and sunset is neither two ends of Day nor Two ends of Night... Two ends are two twilights periods... But you must be wondering But why God called the Two Ends of Day (Nahar) while the period of Salat is within night... Coz two ends only belong to Nahar (Day) and not for Night.. Twilights are part of Day and not night.. ...
Even one can claim..
*Sunrise is One End of Night
*Sunset is One End of Day..Both sunrise and sunset cannot be Ends of Day only OR Night only...
Coz untill the Sun rise it was night.. And coz until the sunset it was Day...
So logically they should belong to both Day and night and not solely to Day...
If in fact the salat Isha and Fajr are as per waqas after sunset and before sunrise respectively then God would have explained with best of explanations... How?...Establish salat in two ends of ENTIRE TWILIGHTS ...
Instead no need 1778 and 11114 and complicate people....But God's instructions is different... And much clear... ...
Three Salat is manifest.... You Can't GUARD Salat by OMITING one salat Daily (if two) .. You Can't perform Salat EXTRA (if five) while Salat is intentionally TIME FIXED by God...how you change time fixed to our convenience.. Nothing works but only instructions of God..
Choose the right option my fellow brothers and sisters... Explore and verify and follow yourself what you feel guided to you... Coz it's a daily act ...not just informative topic of Quran .
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Salaam Wakas
Can you explain how you interpret multiple zulaf in this passage
To clarify this timed-salat begins at evening twilight and ends with dark night (i.e. end of evening twilight).
This satisfies the Arabic plural "zulafan" in 11114 as these two salat time-ranges include morning twilight, evening twilight and a small part of dark night, i.e. 3 proximal parts of the night.If I start to pray salat al-fajr when it's still dark until light appears, and I pray Isha from the rubbing of the sun till it's dark, then these are only 2 'nearnesses' of the night as far as I can see
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/quran-night-day.jpg
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peace ths,
Highlights in red
This satisfies the Arabic plural "zulafan" in 11114 as these two salat time-ranges include morning twilight, evening twilight and a small part of dark night, i.e. 3 proximal parts of the night.
If I start to pray salat al-fajr when it's still dark until light appears, and I pray Isha from the rubbing of the sun till it's dark, then these are only 2 'nearnesses' of the night as far as I can see
From the above I'm not sure if you consider twilights to be part of the night, hence the confusion. I do based on the evidence in Quran, thus I am referring to parts of the night that are somewhat distinguishable from each other, e.g.
- morning twilight
- evening twilight
- dark night (i.e. minimal/no twilight).
Background
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/salat-timings-Quran.html
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/problems-5-salat-Quran.html (which links to this explanation)
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-SaBiH-from-Quran.html -
Ok so the difference is that you consider the darkness of the night to be the third zulfah. My issue with that is that zulf mainly refers to closeness, proximity. So I'd translate 11.114 as "the two edges of the day and the close points of the night". Why add that here if the sunrise and sunset are already close to the night?
The night is close just before dawn and just after the sun rises above the horizon. It's also close at the 'rubbing' of the sun at sunset and just after the sun has dipped below the horizon. But these are the two edges of the day. Why add a note about closeness of night? It seems redundant to me, and I don't see more than 2 edges to the day in this scenario.And I have the same problem with the plural of tarf. The commandment in 11.114 to pray at the two sides/edges of the day makes sense. But the commandment to Muhammad to glorify at the a6raf al-nahar in 20130 makes no sense to me.
The only explanation I can give for zulafan including the darkness of the night is that it doesn't mean closeness, but advancement forward. This is another definition offered in the dictionaries. So zulafan would be rendered 'the advancements/progressions of the night'. This is supported by the use of ZLF in several verses where the word qareeb is already there.
34.37 وَمَا أَمْوَالُكُمْ وَلَا أَوْلَادُكُم بِالَّتِي تُقَرِّبُكُمْ عِندَنَا زُلْفَى
39.3 إِلَّا لِيُقَرِّبُونَا إِلَى اللَّهِ زُلْفَىIt's possible that these verses mean 'brought close to God to a near position'. But QRB already means to bring close. So these could be rendered 'brought close to God in an advanced position'.
I'm still chewing on this, not fully satisifed with any of these theories
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The issue you raise is answered in the linked to explanation below.
Background
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/salat-timings-Quran.html
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/problems-5-salat-Quran.html (which links to this explanation)
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-SaBiH-from-Quran.htmlAs far as I know, taraf = extremity, edge, lateral/adjacent/outward part, side, border ,end, newly acquired. Used in verse 11114, it does not specifically mean sunrise and sunset. It just means the edges (two) of daytime/daylight. The 'edges' need clarified, hence 1778.
So, as you can see, 1778 AND 11114 are needed together for clarification and to confirm a time-range.
That's why I linked to it.
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Ok but it doesn't actually provide an explanation of what the edges are. You are simply stating that there are many edges to the day since the word is plural, and 1778 defines those edges as sunrise and sunset.
As far as I know, taraf = extremity, edge, lateral/adjacent/outward part, side, border ,end, newly acquired. Used in verse 11114, it does not specifically mean sunrise and sunset. It just means the edges (two) of daytime/daylight. The 'edges' need clarified, hence 1778.
My question is what are the other edges then? Because I can only think of sunrise and sunset.
And the same with zulaf. You state
In 11114, 'zulafun' is plural (i.e. three or more near/close/adjacent parts of the night). Now, lets use the minimum criteria for plural usage (i.e. 3), this 3 adjacent parts are to be used for the 2 salat (i.e. fajr & isha).
One example...
The time-range of fajr-salat = one adjacent part of night (twilight) until full sunrise (i.e. sun is fully above horizon)
The number of near/close/adjacent parts of the night used for fajr-salat = one.
The time-range of isha-salat = from rubbing of the sun (i.e. part going below the horizon), including twilight (one adjacent part) AND early night (another adjacent part).
You see, whatever salat is, one may be so focused that one doesn't realise the time and you enter the early part of the night (this is after twilight) THUS the plural criteria (i.e. 3 near/close/adjacent parts have been used altogether for the 2 salat). One adjacent part for fajr and two for isha, giving three.
To my understanding, you have one adjacent part of the night at fajr before the sun is fully up. And you have another at sunset. Once it is dark outside then this is night, not 'a close part of the night.'
Also sidenote, you state here that fajr salah begins at twilight. Can you remind me where this stems from? Why does it not start from full darkness prior to twilight?
And lastly, I've updated that image to reflect my understanding of salat timings. Do you agree with this? It corresponds very nicely with the reference to birds knowing their salat, as the two significant timings of bird song are called dawn chorus and evening, or dusk chorus
https//i.imgur.com/UvRfAuv.jpg -
Also sidenote, you state here that fajr salah begins at twilight. Can you remind me where this stems from? Why does it not start from full darkness prior to twilight?
In my article I clearly state the verses "11114, 1778, 2458..."
I'm not against it starting at the full darkness just prior to morning twilight as it's not like its an exact science, i.e. it's not like everyone knows the exact second when dark night ends and when morning twilight begins. It's a guide, an exemplar. In practical terms I do not see why it would be started at dark night because it's dark, more difficult to see where one is going and since reading of Quran is likely involved (depending on your view of the regular/timed salat of the mumineen) then being able to see the text helps.
Your updated pic does not conflict with anything I wrote. Please read what I wrote, quote
Two common interpretations have been to take "duluk al-shams" as "sunset" or "sinking/rubbing/pressing of the sun" (i.e. from when the lower edge of the sun disc rubs/touches the horizon). I have personally swayed between these two understandings. The primary signification of DLK is rubbing, and if this is coupled with 20130 wherein it says "before the setting/departing of the sun" then this would fit. In other words, "duluk al-shams" can mean when the sun's lower edge rubs the horizon BEFORE sunset.
If we consider one undertaking 'salat al-fajr' (the salat of/at dawn) then it is easy to realise one may crossover timewise into some point after sunrise, due to concentration/focus and/or finishing recitation/reading etc. In other words, going from "before the rising of the sun" (i.e. dawn) to after the sun's rising, i.e. "edges of the daytime" in this instance.
Thus, the "edges of the daytime" could be incorporated under the 'salat al-fajr' and 'salat al-3sha' periods, especially so if one wished to extend these periods in length.Perhaps I could add a link to your pic to explain what I mean (in case anyone still doesn't get it).
THINK about it in practical terms. If one is undertaking salat al fajr do you expect to have one eye on Quran* and one eye on the horizon to make sure the sun does not cross over? Of course not. What if one is halfway through a verse do they stop as soon as they glimpse the sun might be above horizon? Of course not.
*or if you think it means prayer then do you expect to be looking down and up constantly or looking around to make sure the sun doesn't cross the horizon.
Further does anyone honestly think God, the almighty, the merciful, is going to care if you are a few mins out here or there, or you didn't start/stop at the exact time. Not the God I believe in.
Let me state again, quote
No matter where one is in the world all societies have a morning (activity/working period) and evening time (sleep/rest period). Of course this would mean there is no set time-range for each salat in this scenario, which is not a problem in my view, and the morning and evening time-ranges in Quran can be taken as exemplars/models to follow.
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Peace
So we have here 2 different opinions about the timing of salat
- 2 salats with durations from the very beginind of the day ( twilight ?) to sunrise and from the decline of the sun (when it become to darken) to the night.
- 3 salats with a time range; one whe the day begins before sunrise, one when the sun start it decline ( from the highest point) and it ends in night so it has to be performed before night and the third just before night or at night ? if just befor night, they are two salats in the time range from decline to night.
As described as above, it seems confusing the highest point of the sun to night one or two salat in this time range?
Let's sees the verses mentioned
Here are two translations
added words
the words which understandings can be different (came to this conclusion after seeing different translations from different translators and some posts here)
phonetics of the arabic words
17.78
Sahih International Establish prayer (aqimi al salata) at the decline (li duluki)of the sun until (ila) the darkness of the night (ghasaqi al layli)and the Qur'an of dawn. Indeed, the recitation of dawn is ever witnessed.Pickthall Establish worship at the going down of the sun until the dark of night, and (the recital of) the Qur'an at dawn. Lo! (the recital of) the Qur'an at dawn is ever witnessed.
Here are a few translations of the words from coran-seul.com that i translated into English
aqimi 2nd person singular ( masculine) imperative verb stand, stay still, remain still, reamin, wach, fulfill, keep, maintain
salata noun prayer, connexion, contact,
duluki noun from the root of the verb rub, polish, set/go down
ila preposition towards , until
ghasaqi noun darkening, end or ending of the day, twilight. From the verb it is also suggested to spread
layli noun night, darkness, lack of lightWe can also have
17.78 ( first part)
Maintain the connexion/salat at the setting/going down of the sun towards (or until) (the) darkening of the night and quran/recitation/study (at) dawn.
Here al salata the salat, so one salat.the following verse is
17.79
Sahih International And from the night, pray with it as additional for you; it is expected that your Lord will resurrect you to a praised station." word by word"
And from (mina from, "coming" from) the nuit stay awake withi it additional for you it can be that resurrect your Lord a station praiseworthy.
Layl here is dark night, I can only understand it. Layl = night
I will continue tomorrow inshaAllah.
If you could not post anything before in order to let me continue this one, it would be more convenient for me.God bless you.
InshaAllah. -
added words
the words which understandings can be different (came to this conclusion after seeing different translations from different translators and some posts here)
phonetics of the arabic words
17.78
Sahih International Establish prayer (aqimi al salata) at the decline (li duluki)of the sun until (ila) the darkness of the night (ghasaqi al layli)and the Qur'an of dawn. Indeed, the recitation of dawn is ever witnessed.Pickthall Establish worship at the going down of the sun until the dark of night, and (the recital of) the Qur'an at dawn. Lo! (the recital of) the Qur'an at dawn is ever witnessed.
Peace,
I'd say that dulook means 'the rubbing'. So the phrase 'dulook il-shams' is 'the rubbing of the sun'. Even in modern Arabic you can say 'dalaka anfih'
دلك أنفه
(he rubbed his nose).
So I interpret that phrase as thishttp//www.androidguys.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/summer-sunset-293095.jpg
I also like the fact that everyone can visibly see this by looking up at the sky. No need to be a professional astrophysicist to determine when you're supposed to pray.
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Peace
So we have here 2 different opinions about the timing of salat
- 2 salats with durations from the very beginind of the day ( twilight ?) to sunrise and from the decline of the sun (when it become to darken) to the night.
- 3 salats with a time range; one whe the day begins before sunrise, one when the sun start it decline ( from the highest point) and it ends in night so it has to be performed before night and the third just before night or at night ? if just befor night, they are two salats in the time range from decline to night.
As described as above, it seems confusing the highest point of the sun to night one or two salat in this time range?
Let's sees the verses mentioned
Here are two translations ( you can check other translations)
added words
the words which understandings can be different (came to this conclusion after seeing different translations from different translators and some posts here)
phonetics of the arabic words
17.78
Sahih International Establish prayer (aqimi al salata) at the decline (li duluki)of the sun until (ila) the darkness of the night (ghasaqi al layli)and the Qur'an of dawn. Indeed, the recitation of dawn is ever witnessed.Pickthall Establish worship at the going down of the sun until the dark of night, and (the recital of) the Qur'an at dawn. Lo! (the recital of) the Qur'an at dawn is ever witnessed.
Here are a few translations of the words from coran-seul.com that i translated into English
aqimi 2nd person singular ( masculine) imperative verb stand, stay still, remain still, reamin, wach, fulfill, keep, maintain
salata noun prayer, connexion, contact,
duluki noun from the root of the verb rub, polish, set/go down
ila preposition towards , until, at ?
ghasaqi noun darkening, end or ending of the day, twilight. From the verb it is also suggested to spread
layli noun night, darkness, lack of lightWe can also have
17.78 ( first part)
Maintain the connexion/salat at the setting/going down of the sun towards (or until) (the) darkening of the night and quran/recitation/study (at) dawn.
Here al salata the salat, so one salat.the following verse is
17.79
Sahih International And from the night, pray with it as additional for you; it is expected that your Lord will resurrect you to a praised station." word by word"
And from (mina from, "coming" from) the night stay awake withi it additional for you it can be that resurrect your Lord a station praiseworthy.
Layl here is dark night, I can only understand it. Layl = night
I will continue tomorrow inshaAllah.
If you could not post anything before in order to let me continue this one, it would be more convenient for me.God bless you.
InshaAllah.Salam,
I asked not to post before i finish the post, but it's alright
Yes ths, i think we can interpret this way.here the following
2.238
Sahih International Maintain (hafizou) with care the prayers (al salawati) and the middle prayer (wal salati al wusta) and stand before Allah , devoutly obedient.
Pickthall Be guardians of your prayers, and of the midmost prayer, and stand up with devotion to Allah.
Shakir Attend constantly to prayers and to the middle prayer and stand up truly obedient to Allah.Hafizou 2nd person plural (masculine) keep, preserve, maintain, protect
salawati plural noun, note the author in coran-seul.com added in brackets « 3 or more », with the plural al salawati he understood a minimum of three, it needs to be checked.
Wal and the ; salati translated in the singular form so not understood as a plural.
Al wusta definite article + adjective the middle, the intermediate, the moderating ?Maintain/be consistent on the salawati (plural 3 or more?) and the salati the middle/moderate and stand to Allah in devoutness.
If the plural salawati means 3 or more, then there are at least 3 salats, if not the plural here means 2 but need to be clarified.
Is al salati al wusta included in the salawati ? We've got « wa » which means « and »24.58
Arberry O believers, let those your right hands own (aymanoukoum no mention of yad) and those of you who have not reached puberty ask leave of you three times -- before the prayer of dawn (min qabli salati al fajri), and when you put off your garments at the noon (mina al zahiyrati), and after the evening prayer (wa min ba3di al salati al 3ichai)-- three times of nakedness for you. There is no fault in you or them, apart from these, that you go about one to the other. So God makes clear to you the signs; and God is All-knowing, All-wise.
Al fajri =>fajr the dawn, morning, first light, beginning
al zahiyrati =>Zhor the meridian, noon. From the root of the verb appear, unveil
al 3ichai => 3icha the night/dark nightIn this verse, I read that there are two salats one at/during fajr, another at/during 3icha
Those are preceded by min or mina which means from ( provenance), in, during ( if time ), at ?
I can honestly deduce that there isn't here salat at « at noon » because not mentioned and I can't say it is alluded,2.130
Shakir Bear then patiently what they say, and glorify your Lord by the praising of Him(waçabih bihamdi rabika) before the rising of the sun (Toulou3i al chamsi) and before its setting (ghouroubiha), and during hours of the night (wamin anai al layli) do also glorify (Him) and during parts of the day (wa aTrafa al nahari), that you may be well pleased
Arberry So be thou patient under what they say, and proclaim thy Lord's praise before the rising of the sun, and before its setting, and proclaim thy Lord's praise ( fa çabih) in the watches of the night, and at the ends of the day; haply thou wilt be well-pleasing.
Çabih 2nd person singular (masculine) pray, praise, glorify
bihamdiwith praise(s)
Toulou3i rising
ghouroud disappearance, setting,
anai moments approaching night ?noun from the root of the verb to come close to, to approach, to slow down
layli night/dark night
aTrafa plural noun the author in coran-seul.com seems to understand a minimun of 3 ends, edges
naharinoun translated as day (light)One can ask the question seeing the translations is it here about salat ?
Before the rising of the sun
before the setting of the sun
when approaching the night
ends of the day (a minimum of 3 if the plural means it)We have also
50.39-40
Shakir Therefore be patient of what they say, and sing the praise of your Lord before the rising of the sun and before the setting.
Shakir And glorify Him in the night and after the prayers.
Arberry So be thou patient under what they say, and proclaim thy Lord's praise before the rising of the sun, and before its setting,
Arberry and proclaim thy Lord's praise in the night, and at the ends of the prostrations.As suggested by one member of this forum, it would better to know what salat is before talking about its timing because some consider praise or glorifying as salat and other not really and the count is different.
The contexts have to be taken in consideration.And we have verse with verbs in the singular (masculine) in the whole quran, they seem to be adressed to the messenger. We must know which are exclusively for the messenger.
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Salam Wakas,
After reading the articles you have given and considering my knowledge in the day of today, I can't say you're wrong.
You've said there are only two salat mentioned in the Quran ( two named salat salat al fajr and salat al icha), I read the occurences mentioning salat and several verses, in my readings I find salati al fajri, salati al 3ichai and wal (wa +al) salati al wusta which seems different from the others in its formulation. Fajri, 3achai but wusta. Seems like fajri and 3chai translate a period of time but not wusta (adjective).About verse 2.238, I read from different members here that wusta could mean best, which can fit.
In different occurences it can be translated as average, just, or best.Another observation, the context as noticed by a member. I checked again the verses and I noted
2.235. Marriage proposal concerning widows
2.236. Divorce and non appointed faridatan
2.237. Divorce and appointed faridatan
2.238 . Hafizou 3ala al salawati wal salati al wusta...
2.239. If fear do on foot or rukbanan. If safe do it as teached...
2.240. Testament for the spouses.
2.241. Divorce and allowanceAny thought?
We will talk about the rest later if needed, inchaAllah.
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Another observation, the context as noticed by a member. I checked again the verses and I noted
2.235. Marriage proposal concerning widows
2.236. Divorce and non appointed faridatan
2.237. Divorce and appointed faridatan
2.238 . Hafizou 3ala al salawati wal salati al wusta...
2.239. If fear do on foot or rukbanan. If safe do it as teached...
2.240. Testament for the spouses.
2.241. Divorce and allowanceAny thought?
We will talk about the rest later if needed, inchaAllah.
Salam,
For the structure of this passage which is inside an another bigger structure see the link at page 43 from the pdf and related notes
https//reveniraucoran.fr/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Literary_Composition_of_the_Quran-2021-01-24.pdfPeace
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peace Fadiva,
Have you read these articles
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/salat-timings-Quran.htmlPeace Wakas,
I re-read your article again and i qote you "Overwhelming evidence from The Quran suggests the regular/timed salat of the mumineen/believers is a minimum of twice daily, with an optional night vigil"
The problem comes from the verse where the arabic word "l-ṣalawāti" (minimum 3) appears.
So, what is at minimum the third prayer ? -
peace,
Peace Wakas,
I re-read your article again and i qote you "Overwhelming evidence from The Quran suggests the regular/timed salat of the mumineen/believers is a minimum of twice daily, with an optional night vigil"
The problem comes from the verse where the arabic word "l-ṣalawāti" (minimum 3) appears.
So, what is at minimum the third prayer ?At the end of the article
Background reading links
An Understanding of salat from Al Quran (The Reading)
The common problems with 5 salat daily timings as per The Quran - Part 1
The common problems with 5 salat daily timings as per The Quran - Part 2
According to Traditional Islamic sources how many times did the earliest Muslims perform salat?
Articles and past discussions about timings reference one two three four five six seven eight nine ten eleven twelveSpecifically part 11 of
https//mypercept.co.uk/articles/problems-5-salat-Quran.html
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/problems-5-salat-quran.pdfPlease see the pdf version because I just realised there is a small part missing from the webpage which I will fix later.
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Ok - but not easy to find your opinion for the word l-ṣalawāti in verse (here it is https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7727.msg195966#msg195966).
So, to avoid a contradiction, you definied the meaning of the word "l-ṣalawāti" as not a reference to a ritual prayer.
You used the verse to admit your conclusion. I think you can include the verse too.
But the context is not the same, and it is clear in the segment that God points toward ritual prayers (verse 239 is not ambiguous with the context of war like in ).Notes 16 to 20 may help you to have a better view of the structuration of the passage D' (from verse 2178 to verse 2242), especially note 20 (page 65 here https//reveniraucoran.fr/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Literary_Composition_of_the_Quran-2021-01-24.pdf).
NB
I would like to take this opportunity to answer again on a point on which you questioned me (link here -> https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9611227.0), I quote you "Context doesn't mention length/duration".
Yes you're right, but it is the same for charity/alms in the verse (no precise indication) "Do not keep your hand chained to your neck, nor open it too wide, otherwise you will find yourself blamed, full of remorse."
=> Once again we find the theme of moderation, of the golden mean that at the heart of the passage D'. -
I'm not sure why but it seems you avoid addressing any of the points I raise in the article. Let's start with the very first one
In 2238 The Quran makes no reference to the "salawaat" being "in a day"
This point alone is enough to critically damage your initial claim of
"The problem comes from the verse where the arabic word "l-ṣalawāti" (minimum 3) appears.
So, what is at minimum the third prayer ?" -
I'm not sure why but it seems you avoid addressing any of the points I raise in the article. Let's start with the very first one
This point alone is enough to critically damage your initial claim of
"The problem comes from the verse where the arabic word "l-ṣalawāti" (minimum 3) appears.
So, what is at minimum the third prayer ?"I'm not sure why but it seems you avoid addressing any of the remarks i made to you (Did you even click on the link i gave you ? i am not sure..).
You seems so convinced that you have analyzed all the options and come to the only valid conclusion that finally there is no place for a real debate.
Why the Quran needed to add the expression "in a day" ? I don't understand this argument and how it can "damage my initial claim".
The Quran tells you to observe carefully (imperative form) the prayers you have to perform ? how many different and obligatory ones are there ? 2 according to you but the word refers to 3 minimum. So, the question is quite simple where is (at least) the third prayer in your reflection?In addition, in the word "l-ṣalawāti" you find the lam of determination.
+
Verb (form III) - to guard
(22381) ḥāfiẓū Guard strictly حَافِظُوا عَلَى الصَّلَوَاتِ وَالصَّلَاةِ الْوُسْطَىٰ
(69222) yuḥāfiẓūna (are) guarding وَهُمْ عَلَىٰ صَلَاتِهِمْ يُحَافِظُونَ
(2395) yuḥāfiẓūna they guard وَالَّذِينَ هُمْ عَلَىٰ صَلَوَاتِهِمْ يُحَافِظُونَ
(70345) yuḥāfiẓūna keep a guard وَالَّذِينَ هُمْ عَلَىٰ صَلَاتِهِمْ يُحَافِظُونَ
=> Note the difference in sentence structure and grammatical form between verse and the other 3. In these three verses it is about evoking all the prayers of all believers, whereas in verse 238 it is about believers observing THE prescribed prayers.
