I am going to apostate

Noon_waalqalami

Peace NWQ...

Bit off-topic but I would like to ask opinion..

Do you take this watawasaw as Exhort /Enjoin only... But for me this watawasaw is perfectly giving sense as inherit...
One believe, and do good deeds and inherit to himself with truth and patience ...if we don't enjoin, are we at loss? Just asking... What is you or opinion and others...
If I enjoin will others take it as true, how do one know what he enjoin is right.. As we all know there is so many difference of understanding within Quran among believers.. So by enjoining they won't necessarily accept.. Would they?
Inherit for me suits perfectly..

peace – property, parents, genes, tribe, etc. we are given i.e. ورث waritha/inherit

411
وورثه wawarithahu/and inherit him/said person ابواه parents dual his/said person
فلامه so to mother his/said person الثلث the third

we exhort, encourage, enjoin, etc., behaviors which is opposite of discourage.

9017 ثم furthermore كان be من of الذين the ones امنوا believes they of وتوصوا and exhort they of بالصبر in the patience وتوصوا and exhort they of بالمرحمه in the mercy

jkhan

peace – property, parents, genes, tribe, etc. we are given i.e. ورث waritha/inherit

411
وورثه wawarithahu/and inherit him/said person ابواه parents dual his/said person
فلامه so to mother his/said person الثلث the third

we exhort, encourage, enjoin, etc., behaviors which is opposite of discourage.

9017 ثم furthermore كان be من of الذين the ones امنوا believes they of وتوصوا and exhort they of بالصبر in the patience وتوصوا and exhort they of بالمرحمه in the mercy

Thanks for your clarification.. So it is only exhort or enjoin for.. That's what I wanted know.. But for me it is inherit a non physical thing towards one...

Yes.. We all know "warith" is inheritance to be correct any tangible physical thing.. For example Janna, book, property land etc.. That's inheritance in quran...but you can inherit certain things which is not physical.. Love, mercy, truth, patience.. This definitely different...
One can never be at LOSS for not enjoining others with truth and patience... True good believers always try to speak truth in their life.. That's fine.. But how can they be at loss if they failed to enjoin truth and patience and mercy...
True believers every action is a direct reflection to others who he is.. His action enjoins to others...
We can enjoin right and wrong to our family friends etc while we be right and avoid wrong...that enjoining between believers is so natural... It is not must we enjoin disbelievers.. Do we? Whether we enjoin/warn or not they won't believe.. It is same.. 26

True believers when they believe in God and do salih good deeds, they automatically turn to be with patience with mercy with truth.. That's what I take from those verses.. Leave it to other readers for their choice... God guide us..

BTW I don't blame your understanding brother NWQ.. Coz that's what you and probably most people's understanding..

ade_cool

I didn't say the Qur'an is false. I said there are certain verses that haven't aged well, verses that our accumulated body of knowledge contradict or do not verify. Now, as Muslims we may insist the verses have to be correct because the Qur'an is a divine text, but if a neutral reader is unable to reach the same conclusion, then we have a huge problem.

If you want examples of these verses, just type "Errors in the Qur'an" in Google search box and start from there. Listen to some few exMuslims and Islam critics.

That is an empty suggestion ...for sure, everyone can search in google "errors in the Qur'an" but from google search result, which ones you are convinced that those are truly errors in Quran. So which ones? Perhaps can you give your top 3 errors in the Qur'an?

good_logic

Peace ade_cool .
Google/internet is the modern "hadiths". We can find anything we want in it,here is my list
Errors in believing there is a God.
Errors in believing there is no God.
Errors in the bible
errors in Qoran.
errors in everything we do as humans.
errors in all religions.
... You make your own list and you will find it if you "google" it.
Actually you can even find errors in "google".

Put it this way, the whole purpose of the human being has errors according to google. That does not mean there are no errors in all things humans.

But if one believes in GOD and believes GOD sent a scripture,surely they EXPECT that scripture to be ERRORLESS !!!!!
Or they do not really believe in either -just lip service-
By definition GOD does not err. or send errors.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

good_logic

I meant to add this most important point
If one finds errors and has solid proof they are errors in any claimed scripture from GOD , then it is not from GOD , it is not scripture and has nothing to do with GOD.
It is simply from other than GOD.
That is if one knows who is GOD and believes in GOD.
GOD bless.
Peace.

Anoushirvan

I meant to add this most important point
If one finds errors and has solid proof they are errors in any claimed scripture from GOD , then it is not from GOD , it is not scripture and has nothing to do with GOD.
It is simply from other than GOD.
That is if one knows who is GOD and believes in GOD.
GOD bless.
Peace.

Peace GL,

A insightful criticism of you opinions though no offense intended, but it is really striking me how your belief is really close to two things

The modern one conspiracy theories. Everything going against the kind of belief (in God) you have, in particular pointing at errors and fallacies in Scriptures, is a kind of conspiracy against this belief.
The ancient one Gnosticsm, which, by the way, was also a kind of conspiracy theory of the ancient way.

You said "That is if one knows who is GOD and believes in GOD."

Seeking the knowledge of God was precisely the purpose of Gnosticism ("gnosis" in greek means knowledge), because Gnostics believed that knowing God and the realm of God was the only way to reach salvation.
Ancient Gnostics believed that angels or jinns, or messenger could stimulate awareness of the God realm, somehow you have replaced those stimulating entities by Qur'an.

Ancient Gnostics also believed that this lowly world was inherently bad and conspired to prevent mankind to reach the knowledge of God and therefore salvation.

I would like to draw your attention on the fact that this is precisely this kind of belief, relying on knowledge of God, that is harshly blamed in Qur'an in numerous verses.

But the mere fact that you draw your belief from Qur'an is a likely indication that Qur'an probably used the same mindset as the Gnostic beliefs it wanted to blame.

Again, no offense intended, just raising awareness.

good_logic

Peace Anoushirvan..
This is very simple logic, if one believes this
God. ( ɡɒd) n. 1. (,Theology) theol the sole Supreme Being, eternal, spiritual, and transcendent, who is the Creator and ruler of all and is infinite in all attributes(All knowing...etc)

Then the above God should be perfect and does not do errors. Or is this not logical to you?

That is what my post was implying.
Just to clarify for you.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Neptin

That is an empty suggestion ...for sure, everyone can search in google "errors in the Qur'an" but from google search result, which ones you are convinced that those are truly errors in Quran. So which ones? Perhaps can you give your top 3 errors in the Qur'an?

I already mentioned two in my original post on this thread. One on human embryology and the other on geography. I have only referred him to Google in a bid to get him see there are alternative diverse and contradicting views on the infallibility of Qur'an.

Neptin

Peace ade_cool .
Google/internet is the modern "hadiths". We can find anything we want in it,here is my list
Errors in believing there is a God.
Errors in believing there is no God.
Errors in the bible
errors in Qoran.
errors in everything we do as humans.
errors in all religions.
... You make your own list and you will find it if you "google" it.
Actually you can even find errors in "google".

Well, at least searching on Google is the first step to inquiry. Anyone should know this. After collecting ideas and views on Google, then the next step would be to verify those ideas. So, what is wrong with referring jkhan to Google again?

But if one believes in GOD and believes GOD sent a scripture,surely they EXPECT that scripture to be ERRORLESS !!!!!
Or they do not really believe in either -just lip service-
By definition GOD does not err. or send errors.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Well, everyone is free to have their approach to the scripture. For me, it's about the practical utility.
So, the discussion on what one believes about God and the divinity of Qur'an is really of no relevance to me. I just want to decipher the verses and make the best of what I can of the ancient document, that's it.

Jafar

I am one step away from having a full mental breakdown. The stress is weighing down on me and affecting me physically, mentally and emotionally. I came to this forum to find answers. I am just left with more confusion and questions. I am tired of following something which doesn't makes sense to me.

You are NOT one step away from 'breakdown', you are one step away from finding the answer.
You are one step away from conquering your own FEAR, finding your own path that will make sense to you.
Those who questioned shall find answer...

I love God, i believe in him, i just don't believe anymore that Quran is the answer for me.

That's what God Is.
And that's why Quran is not God.
And that's why the answer will come from God, for those who seek.

It is my fear of judgement day only that has been keeping me from finally accepting myself as deist and leaving behind all the religion. I just want to know whether a deist is also considered a believer according to Quran, or am I disbeliever for abandoning Quran but still believing in God ?

As mentioned above, you are one step away from conquering your own FEAR.
From the day of Marduk, Pharaoh, Baal, Uzza, etc FEAR is how religion / darkness bind it's people to the shackle.
Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad to name a few need to face their own fear to break free.
And you, or anybody else is no different..
Face the fear and you will find your path... nobody share the exact same path, but all path actually lead to the same destination.

jkhan

I meant to add this most important point
If one finds errors and has solid proof they are errors in any claimed scripture from GOD , then it is not from GOD , it is not scripture and has nothing to do with GOD.
It is simply from other than GOD.
That is if one knows who is GOD and believes in GOD.
GOD bless.
Peace.

Faith plays a huge role in deciding.. Coupled with mercy of God unknown to us towards Him.. ..

Let me simplify in my way...
Either Everything is created or evolved... Those are two options to choose... That's vital without any religious book or anceint people's influence..

Based on above two factors people may forge ahead in their exploration ... ..

Choosing Creation or choosing Evolution is only possible with neutral mind with much exertion of thoughts on each and every single thing... You know whenever I observe my epiglottis in the mirror hanging low touching the toung I wonder what would happen if it is not there... So much perfection? For what? Lacking in one single organ or body part is definitely a defect... So human body is perfect for living.. Why and how? Nature cannot create anything... Every living and nonliving thing constitute nature literally.. and non of that has the capacity to create another natural being.. .

Everything evolved once upon a time and be perfect for certain lapse of time and then be extinct one day, doesn't make any sense at all... Never... Coz we all explicitly agree, that We, Human, being an intelligent creature cannot create another object in perfection without comprehensive application of knowledge into it.. Then we create perfect objects.. For example a mobile phone.. It cannot be created by chance... So behind every living and nonliving thing there is a Creator/Designer behind it just simply coz the creature/created object is perfect in design and behind all perfectly designed thing there needs another hand with much knowledge applied.. that's indispensable.. Doesn't that make sense?

Believer in God, I mean the one who chose God cannot come through books initially.. Book can guide and augment one's belief relatively, but I doubt a book can originate a believer in God... Belief is choice born within self at any point of one's life that drives towards searching guidance.. Note at that initial moment he may not perceive he is believer in God.. But he is..

I don't think Quran made me believe in God in the first place.. Talk to your heart all those who believe in God... Is it Quran / other scriptures that made you believe in God in the first place.. Or you approached Quran for guidance and and figuring out to get confirmation ...

For example a believer in God who is Christian...
So for guidance he opted Bible.. But for certain reasons he finds errors in it.. Wisely he leaves the Bible... But he still didn't leave the God... Strange.. He thought bible is from God and he is not satisfied with bible so logically he should leave that god as well.. But he remains in belief of God.. Why? Just Coz he didn't believe in God coz of bible, but he believed coz God let him believe in him.. Once God shown mercy made him belief in Him, how can God let him follow human fabricated book.. Then suppose he chose quran to get guidance... He remains satisfied... Just gave example.. It shows that books won't originate belief in God.. But instead aleady believer in God approaches towards book for guidance...

It's like..
God show mercy and make a soul believe in Him.. First step...

He may wander here and there while having the belief in God unknown.. May do sins etc etc... But God's mercy of believing in Him still in his soul.

So.. At certain point of time in life he gradually approaches for guidance that's to get confirmed his belief...

But to those who never realized God even how much they get close to any book they won't get guidance coz they never believed in God in the first place..

That's my take...

Anoushirvan

Peace Anoushirvan..
This is very simple logic, if one believes this
God. ( ɡɒd) n. 1. (,Theology) theol the sole Supreme Being, eternal, spiritual, and transcendent, who is the Creator and ruler of all and is infinite in all attributes(All knowing...etc)

Then the above God should be perfect and does not do errors. Or is this not logical to you?

Peace GL,

On a philosophical ground, such a supreme being could very well make errors, and also have the wish to improve the creation to fix them.
So, on the principle, nothing prevents that, and indeed some ancient doctrines professed this belief.

It's only because there is a book claiming to be revealed by a god and claiming that this god is perfect and without errors, and because you chose to believe what this book is telling you, that you draw this conclusion that this god is perfect and without errors.

Then when or if one points you at errors and fallacies e.g. in this book, in a kind of circular reasoning, you decide that those ones comfort your belief instead of revising your belief.
This is why I draw your attention on conspiracy theories because this is the same reasoning pattern.

There is no objective logic or absolute truth here as you told me above, just your personal choice to believe in such a way.

good_logic

Peace All.
This is simple logic ,nothing complicated
If one is searching /investigating/checking if GOD exist ,they must be looking for this GOD

God. ( ɡɒd) n. 1. (,Theology) theol the sole Supreme Being, eternal, spiritual, and transcendent, who is the Creator and ruler of all and is infinite in all attributes(All knowing...etc)

If one is checking " claimed scripture" they must be checking something sent/authored /originated from/by the above GOD.
Then this simple /obvious reasoning will tell us that the GOD above has the perfect knowledge and will not do errors by definition
If the "claimed scripture" has evidenced errors-with solid proof that they are errors- then the errors cannot be from the above defined GOD..

If one does not believe in GOD ,then there are no scriptures as far as they are concerned..

Well, everyone is free to have their approach to the scripture. For me, it's about the practical utility.
So, the discussion on what one believes about God and the divinity of Qur'an is really of no relevance to me. I just want to decipher the verses and make the best of what I can of the ancient document, that's it.
To me it is honest and truthful that if one finds "proven errors" in any scripture and deduce that the errors cannot be from GOD ( defined above). i.e the errors are not scripture or part of the scripture.
Or is there a different reasoning?
GOD bless you all.
Peace.

good_logic

Beother Neptin, this part in my above post is a quote from you,( it got deleted in the post) sorry

"Well, everyone is free to have their approach to the scripture. For me, it's about the practical utility.
So, the discussion on what one believes about God and the divinity of Qur'an is really of no relevance to me. I just want to decipher the verses and make the best of what I can of the ancient document, that's it.".
My answer was below ,copied again here
"To me it is honest and truthful that if one finds "proven errors" in any scripture and deduce that the errors cannot be from GOD ( defined above). i.e the errors are not scripture or part of the scripture.
Or is there a different reasoning?
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Aclon

to be honest i cannot do much about your situation, everyone must discover their own truth with what they have been given. my advice is do not lose hope, even everything is against what you have been believing,learn from your mistake and humility and do what you think is good to you, in the end it will be clear. Let the darkness protects you and the light show you the way to the god's path sun.

Anoushirvan

To me it is honest and truthful that if one finds "proven errors" in any scripture and deduce that the errors cannot be from GOD ( defined above). i.e the errors are not scripture or part of the scripture.
Or is there a different reasoning?

Yes, there is a different reasoning consider that every scripture was authored by one or more human beings, describing his / her / their vision of God, in his / her / their context.
Possibly that this vision could have been inspired by God in an act of faith.

Then consider if this vision is still relevant nowadays or not, and if not relevant anymore, discard it.

good_logic

Peace Anoushirvan,.
You say, quote

"Then consider if this vision is still relevant nowadays or not, and if not relevant anymore, discard it."

good_logic

I say irrelevant the change in humans ,GOD has the knowledge to provide a scripture that is relevant to all ages.
Qoran is that final scripture. Funny enough it predicts that some would say it is outdated!!! "Assatiru Al Awwaleen!-Tales of old/ancient-
GOD bless.
Peace.

Neptin

Beother Neptin, this part in my above post is a quote from you,( it got deleted in the post) sorry

"Well, everyone is free to have their approach to the scripture. For me, it's about the practical utility.
So, the discussion on what one believes about God and the divinity of Qur'an is really of no relevance to me. I just want to decipher the verses and make the best of what I can of the ancient document, that's it.".
My answer was below ,copied again here
"To me it is honest and truthful that if one finds "proven errors" in any scripture and deduce that the errors cannot be from GOD ( defined above). i.e the errors are not scripture or part of the scripture.
Or is there a different reasoning?
GOD bless you.
Peace.

You're asking the wrong question to the wrong person. Since I don't go about insisting the Qur'an is from God while admitting there may be errors in certain verses, I don't see how your answer applies here.

Peace.

Anoushirvan

I say irrelevant the change in humans ,GOD has the knowledge to provide a scripture that is relevant to all ages.
Qoran is that final scripture. Funny enough it predicts that some would say it is outdated!!! "Assatiru Al Awwaleen!-Tales of old/ancient-
GOD bless.
Peace.

Well, same for Qur'an

2133 Or were you present when death came to Jacob and he said to his sons "Who shall you serve from after me?" They said "Your god, and the god of your fathers Abram, and Ishmael, and Isaac; One god and to Him we submit."
2134 That is a nation that has passed away; to them is what they have earned, and to you is what you have earned; and you will not be asked regarding what they did.

Like the generation of Jacob before it, the generation of Muhammad has passed way since a long time, to them is what they have 'earned', and to us is what we have 'earned'