I am going to apostate

Anoushirvan

Peace Anoushirvan.
So there is no scripture now. Or do you mean Science has replaced it in these day and age?

Science, yes, but not only science.

Also human rights, as, e.g., corporal punishments advocated in Qur'an are not acceptable anymore.
Even imprisonment that we consider the right alternative today might be considered barbaric by our descendants in a few centuries.

There are a lot of concerns nowadays that are completely absent from Qur'an.

We have that laws are not given by God and thus intangible. On the contrary, laws must be allowed to evolve.
We have the separation of powers people doing the laws (legislative) must not be the same as the executive, and not the same as the judiciary.
We have that jurisprudence must be a prerogative of the state, and not a prerogative of private individuals as it was the case at the beginning of Islam and is now causing a lot of troubles for Muslims.
We have that state and religion are separated somehow in democracies (and not only in France by the way).

These are really key important points to organize our societies nowadays and cannot be left as a free option for individuals or societies that Scriptures or God Himself should feel unconcerned with and unworthy to mention.

If Scriptures were really sent down by an All-Knowing God, and especially so that they should still be relevant in our days, all these points above should have been mentioned in them.

That those key concepts are verily absent means that the Scriptures were actually written by humans describing their own vision of God but tied to the concepts of their times. At best they could be inspired by God for their times, but not really more.

good_logic

Peace Anoushirvan.
GOD gave the choice of
1-Follow GOD s laws.- System-
2- Follow "independent from GODs laws- your own systems.
So there is nothing new now days, most are following their own systems. You may think these systems are better than GOD s system but the history /religions you claim have corrupted GOD s system and made up their own also.
Like here ,you say, quote

"We have that jurisprudence must be a prerogative of the state, and not a prerogative of private individuals as it was the case at the beginning of Islam and is now causing a lot of troubles for Muslims."

This is a corrupted version of GOD s Islam, and not the original.
GOD s Islam is a state of mind not a religion called Islam.
You are going with the interpretation of scriptures by Judaism, Christianity and Traditional Islam. These are made up religions.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

jkhan

Science, yes, but not only science.

Also human rights, as, e.g., corporal punishments advocated in Qur'an are not acceptable anymore.
Even imprisonment that we consider the right alternative today might be considered barbaric by our descendants in a few centuries.

There are a lot of concerns nowadays that are completely absent from Qur'an.

We have that laws are not given by God and thus intangible. On the contrary, laws must be allowed to evolve.
We have the separation of powers people doing the laws (legislative) must not be the same as the executive, and not the same as the judiciary.
We have that jurisprudence must be a prerogative of the state, and not a prerogative of private individuals as it was the case at the beginning of Islam and is now causing a lot of troubles for Muslims.
We have that state and religion are separated somehow in democracies (and not only in France by the way).

These are really key important points to organize our societies nowadays and cannot be left as a free option for individuals or societies that Scriptures or God Himself should feel unconcerned with and unworthy to mention.

If Scriptures were really sent down by an All-Knowing God, and especially so that they should still be relevant in our days, all these points above should have been mentioned in them.

That those key concepts are verily absent means that the Scriptures were actually written by humans describing their own vision of God but tied to the concepts of their times. At best they could be inspired by God for their times, but not really more.

Peace Anoush..
Quran is not a list of law book.. God has never discouraged human making their own law.. God has given knowledge to human to be ethical... Quran was revealed in Arabic and to warn the Mother of cities and surrounded area...
Don't complicate Quran anticipating every law is presented for every rising issue... No.. For example what is the law in Quran for drug contraband ? Or what is the law for one entering another nation without valid visa?
Every nation may have certain laws set most suited for them.. Coz they rule the land.. Most of laws every nation set for the sake of its people is much ethical and welcome by its people..
God never said set the law of Quran all over the world in every aspect .. It is not God's intention..
Quran I always bifurcate into three...

Only for mother of cities and surrounded area.. i.e for prophet and his people.. For all human being and Jin regardless of time.. And past events and histories as lesson for all. These bifurcation may not be the precise way, but that makes my understanding easier..

Your concern of corporal punishment... Public Laws (concerned with physical punishment) can be executed if the rule of the nation is in the hands of believers.. So.. With the tone of Quran we may deduce that authority was gradually gained by then believers.. So setting such laws when instructed in the Quran is mandatory, otherwise they rejected the verse...For them God preferred God set Law instead they themselves create.. So they practiced them.. So such laws are very much restricted to them..coz it is their nation and the messenger also with them.. But God never expects by these verses that whole world follow the same.. Coz in the whole world believers are not ruling and never will be... But, Anoush the law God assigned is not wrong if any nation wants to implement... That could be the best of laws.. It is never against humanity ...if you say that God's Law is outdated and against human rights then you directly and indirectly claim that God assigned laws to an ancient community which were against human right... It is only our thoughts that makes us feel so.. True believer cannot claim so..

I completely do agree with you that laws must be allowed to evolve.. Coz ethics should prevail for the system to run(belief of a person in God doesn't matter) ..

Laws of God in Quran is confined only with believers... But Quran has general laws which is concerned with the people of that nation as well regardless of faith.. Since the ruler is follower of Quran they implemented them.. No harm.. Right thing..

If you or anyone has the opinion that we should only follow the laws which God has set concerned with people of nation then it is wrong... You can't violate a law set in every nation every division every segment which is ruled and owned.. Respective people have to follow.. That is absolutely fine.. In the nation of Yousuf, king had certain laws people had to adhere even it may go against God's law.. Suppose if, imprisoning is the law for thief then it has to be adhered.. It may not match with the law which God ordered through Quran to the people of Mohamed when they had the authority..
Following human laws who are in authority is not against Quran..

But problem is laws regardless of time constituted in Quran for every individual believer should be abide by.. For example.. Food restrictions.. Believers of Muhamed time and believers of now and future should comply.. Rejecting is purely rejecting God's verses.. To adhere to it you don't need authority in the land.. In such cases even if the law of any nations says you can eat any food, you don't need to follow, coz it is not compelling but just a law of choice...

God's law is the best if you compare any laws which God assigned with human constituted laws..
For example God has ordered capital punishment for one of the major felonies, namely Murder.. And then blood money.. Bring a better way if possible explaining why taking into consideration all parties..

We should adhere to laws of nations where we live.. That's more appropriate... Suppose if a beloved of yours is innocently killed and if court adjudicated right decision and then given 20 years of rigorous imprisoning to murderer then you are to abide though it is not God's law.. Most probably you will be happy... ...

If anyone look for every traffic violations and every hijacking a Law in Quran and thus claim quran law is outdated and insufficient and thus intangible that is his shear inability to perceive Quran and its purpose of revelation.. If judge Quran in that angle only misguidance is our path..

Anoushirvan

Peace Anoushirvan.
GOD gave the choice of
1-Follow GOD s laws.- System-
2- Follow "independent from GODs laws- your own systems.
So there is nothing new now days, most are following their own systems. You may think these systems are better than GOD s system but the history /religions you claim have corrupted GOD s system and made up their own also.

Peace GL,

The choice in Qur'an is not between two equally valid options subject to free choice that would be following God's laws vs. independent from God's laws.

The choice is between the system / deen that leads to salvation (Paradise) and the deen that leads to damnation (Fire).
Qur'an does not put both on the same foot (e.g. verse 5920).

So from that we have those possibilities

either a deen nowadays based a human rights, separation of powers, and freedom is to be regarded as not leading by itself to salvation because it was not designed by God.
Then a community of believers nowadays willing to enforce God's laws as written in Qur'an, including corporal punishments, or prohibition of of interest-bearing loans, would simply lead to a kind a dictatorship, maybe a softer one than Saudi Arabia or Iran, but a dictatorship nonetheless.
or, a deen nowadays based a human rights, separation of powers, and freedom can be regarded as compatible by itself to the same kind of Qur'anic salvation although not designed by God.

Then it means that humans, especially philosophers and lawyers, are able to design a deen that sounds philosophically and humanly better than the one authored by God in Qur'an, so why would we need the deen of God written in Qur'an ?

"We have that jurisprudence must be a prerogative of the state, and not a prerogative of private individuals as it was the case at the beginning of Islam and is now causing a lot of troubles for Muslims."

This is a corrupted version of GOD s Islam, and not the original.

GOD s Islam is a state of mind not a religion called Islam.

This is not what is written in Qur'an

3.19 (...).إِنَّ الدِّينَ عِندَ اللّهِ الإِسْلاَمُ
3.19 'Inna Ad-Dīna `Inda Allāhi Al-'Islāmu (...)

Clearly Qur'an calls Islam a deen. Verse 385 says that whoever desires other than "Islam" as "deen", never will it be accepted from the Lord, and in the Hereafter, will be among the losers.
We can still claim that deen in Qur'an does not mean "religion" in the Christian sense, which is actually correct, but "deen" does not mean "state of mind" either.
Deen in Qur'an means laws, ethics and judgment.

So Islam in Qur'an is a system of laws, ethics and judgment (e.g. verse 1276, 242).
Whether this Islam in Qur'an is the same as Islam nowadays that emerged during Abbassid era, this is indeed debatable.

Going back to my initial point, even Qur'an implicitly acknowledges that on its time, the laws were elaborated by private individuals.
This is stated in verse 2187 except that most people can't read that verse correctly.

Anoushirvan

Peace Anoush..
Quran is not a list of law book.. God has never discouraged human making their own law.. God has given knowledge to human to be ethical... Quran was revealed in Arabic and to warn the Mother of cities and surrounded area...

Peace jkhan,

indeed that was not my point, Qur'an is not a book of laws, though it contains some legal provisions.

Qur'an was a series of preaching advocating for the need of ethical laws, and by "ethical" it meant divine, and warning the people about the risk of supersessionism (https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supersessionism) if they fail to adopt ethical laws.

And to argue for the risk of supersessionism, Qur'an messenger reminds the tales of Noah, Shuaib, Moses, etc. that his people were supposed to already know.

On this general mainline narrative in Qur'an preaching, I agree, and this is where I say Qur'an is an important text to understand.

But Qur'an also contains some legal provisions, because after all, if you (the messenger for that matter) speak all the time on the need for ethical laws but never mention anything about the shape they should have, then you are speaking in the void.

Firstly, those legal provisions, a lot of them in Qur'an ruling about sexuality, are largely outdated by our human rights standards nowadays.

Secondly, legals nowadays consider there is a hierarchy of laws, e.g. constitutional laws are above criminal laws.
This principle of a hierarchy of laws does not exist in Qur'an.

On those points, Qur'an is largely outdated today.

Your concern of corporal punishment... Public Laws (concerned with physical punishment) can be executed if the rule of the nation is in the hands of believers.. So.. With the tone of Quran we may deduce that authority was gradually gained by then believers.. So setting such laws when instructed in the Quran is mandatory, otherwise they rejected the verse...For them God preferred God set Law instead they themselves create.. So they practiced them.. So such laws are very much restricted to them..coz it is their nation and the messenger also with them.. But God never expects by these verses that whole world follow the same.. Coz in the whole world believers are not ruling and never will be... But, Anoush the law God assigned is not wrong if any nation wants to implement... That could be the best of laws.. It is never against humanity ...

if you say that God's Law is outdated and against human rights then you directly and indirectly claim that God assigned laws to an ancient community which were against human right... It is only our thoughts that makes us feel so.. True believer cannot claim so..

That's why I said that laws in Qur'an are not God's laws and Qur'an was not a book dictated by God.
The laws were those compatible with the mindset of their time.
There is nothing wrong with that in my opinion, and likewise some of our laws will look barbaric to our descents. That's life.

The problem is in the failure to recognize that mindsets have changed and some laws are not acceptable anymore.

jkhan

Peace jkhan,

indeed that was not my point, Qur'an is not a book of laws, though it contains some legal provisions.

Qur'an was a series of preaching advocating for the need of ethical laws, and by "ethical" it meant divine, and warning the people about the risk of supersessionism (https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supersessionism) if they fail to adopt ethical laws.

And to argue for the risk of supersessionism, Qur'an messenger reminds the tales of Noah, Shuaib, Moses, etc. that his people were supposed to already know.

On this general mainline narrative in Qur'an preaching, I agree, and this is where I say Qur'an is an important text to understand.

But Qur'an also contains some legal provisions, because after all, if you (the messenger for that matter) speak all the time on the need for ethical laws but never mention anything about the shape they should have, then you are speaking in the void.

Firstly, those legal provisions, a lot of them in Qur'an ruling about sexuality, are largely outdated by our human rights standards nowadays.

Secondly, legals nowadays consider there is a hierarchy of laws, e.g. constitutional laws are above criminal laws.
This principle of a hierarchy of laws does not exist in Qur'an.

On those points, Qur'an is largely outdated today.

That's why I said that laws in Qur'an are not God's laws and Qur'an was not a book dictated by God.
The laws were those compatible with the mindset of their time.
There is nothing wrong with that in my opinion, and likewise some of our laws will look barbaric to our descents. That's life.

The problem is in the failure to recognize that mindsets have changed and some laws are not acceptable anymore.

Leave Anoush..

Do you believe in your natural instincts that everything is created? If No, you may express your view as you stated.. But if you believe in God and His creation then I am afraid this won't be the way to understand Quran...

God says He has furnished all examples... So that can only be for salvation.. If we look for examples for our choices we won't find..
God Himself not interested to spoon feed his creatures while already He has created us with brain and heart and eyes and ears etc with freedom of choice...
That's why when Moses was ordered to slaughter a cow God didn't inform any further details.. God's first command was just slaughter a cow.. God left Musa or people to choose whatever of their preference.. But, they split hair in stubbornness... 267-71
Quran has guidance.. seek it.. You won't find everything of your live's necessity in Quran.. That's so eccentric if anyone request so... If God explained everything you will only be in trouble/ difficulties without being able to implement them(read 5101) ... Note that.. But if God wanted He would have sent book/s detailing each and every thing what we have to do and not to do... That's not what God wanted.. What He sent down by sending messengers to all nations is more than enough for salvation...

May God guide you and me and all believers for our salvation .. The one who created the heavens and earth knows to constitute laws...

Anoushirvan

Leave Anoush..

Do you believe in your natural instincts that everything is created? If No, you may express your view as you stated.. But if you believe in God and His creation then I am afraid this won't be the way to understand Quran...

I understand Qur'an the same way than people of the ancient times, before Qur'an, were taught how to read the Scriptures.
Once you learn how to read the Scriptures, it is obvious how Qur'an uses the same codes.

That's why when Moses was ordered to slaughter a cow God didn't inform any further details.. God's first command was just slaughter a cow.. God left Musa or people to choose whatever of their preference.. But, they split hair in stubbornness... 267-71

This is how traditional Islam interprets this story in tafsirs explaining that Children of Israel asked unnecessary questions to the prophets without readily following any commandment from God. Any cow as initially requested would have been sufficient, but since they made the matter more difficult, God made it even more difficult for them.

But this is not the correct meaning of this story.

The story of "para aduma", the red heifer (https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_heifer) first appears in the Book of Numbers chapter 19.
Ancient Jews had troubles understanding the story of the red heifer in the Book of Numbers, so it is likely its interpretation has varied across centuries.
In the Book of Numbers there is no discussing between Moses and his people about how to choose the cow, so this discussion is an elaboration of the author of surah 2, based on his own understanding of the story.
Likewise, that a part of the cow is able to resurrect a dead (verse 273) is not in the Book of Numbers to my best knowledge. Again this is a specific elaboration from the author of Qur'an, maybe based on some prior interpretations.

There are many symbols hidden in the story of the red heifer, both in the Book of Numbers and in Qur'an.

As I mentioned above, verse 273 states that a part of the sacrificed cow had to be used for resurrecting a dead person.
This is the sign that the cow in this story is actually a messianic symbol, and actually, the story of the cow in Qur'an plays on the symbolism that the sacrificed cow prefigures the Messiah.

The topic of the Messiah in Qur'an is a bit complicated for various reasons.
One is that the figure of the Messiah is usually associated to Jesus, hence it is not obvious to understand what the Messiah would have to do with Moses here.
Next Qur'an actually despises messianism and when speaking of Isa al-Masih (supposed to be read as Jesus the Messiah), actually trivializes the expression al-Masih, and renders it void of its normal content.

Despite this, Qur'an heavily plays on Messianic topics end of times, resurrection, height of the ordeal, supersessionism, eschatological inversion (eschatological inversion in Judaism means that the end of time the pagans enter the Alliance with God, and Jews might be kicked out of it).

In ancient Judaism, as can be evidenced in the Dead Sea Scrolls, in the Gospels, in the Talmud, in the Midrash, a lot of discussions took place among scholars about the signs of the coming of the Messiah and the advent of the messianic era, and those discussions very often used a symbolic language.
Also the coming of the Messiah was supposed to coincide with the end of times.
In the ancient Jewish thought, end of times was supposed to mean height of the ordeal, entry of the pagans into the Alliance with God, restoring the Temple, relied of the burden of the Law.

Basically there were two groups those who wanted the end of times and the messianic era to come as soon as possible and those who wanted the end of times to come as latest as possible.

The story of the cow in Qur'an takes place after verse 265 which speaks about those who transgressed the Sabbath.
But transgressing the Sabbath has nothing to do with lightening a fire on a Saturday.
Transgressing the Sabbath is an expression that means premature declaration of the end of time.

In the Gospels, when Jesus is reproached by rabbis to transgress the Sabbath by curing people on Saturday, it means that he didn't wait for the 8th day.
This is a metaphor to reproach rabbis to not acknowledge that the end of times (in the spirit of the Gospels) and a new era have come.
Indeed, for some Jews, and Rabbinic scholars in particular, there is the fear that having the pagans entered into the Alliance with God will dilute the Jewish identity and singularity, thus they expressed delaying arguments to deny this possibility.
For other scholars, denying the possibility of the messianic era basically meant that pagans were banned from salvation, and that Israel failed in its divine mission to be the light of the Nations.

So in verse 265, Qur'an blames those who prematurely declare the end of times and especially spread chaos (fassad) in order to argue that we are the height of the ordeal. (Think of some terrorist movements who use similar arguments today).

But in verses 267 to 273, on the contrary, Qur'an blames those who deny that the end of times has come when it is time and use dilatory arguments for denying that.

This is the meaning of the story of the cow in Qur'an.

jkhan