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  4. to consider on ablution

to consider on ablution

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  • A Offline
    A Offline
    ade_cool
    wrote on last edited by
    #3

    From verse 56

    clean your faces and your hands to {almarafiq}
    and wipe with your heads and your feet to {alkaabayn}
    and if you were to be avoided then {ttaharuu}

    and if you were sick or on {safar} or someone came from you from {ghaait} or {lamastom} the women then you didn’t find water then {tayammamu ssa3idan tayiban} then wipe with your heads and your hands from it.

    How wiping works
    let’s take for example a table. Let’s say the table is wet from cleaning with “water”.

    When it is said wipe your hand, then your hand should be wiped.
    But if it is said wipe with your hand,then you should wipe something with your hand.

    We wipe the table with a cleaner, the cleaner afterwards is wet.
    I hope you see my point here.

    I originally wanted to talk about this verse
    someone came from you from {ghaait}

    when I was looking at the structure of the verse I found out that this one start with 3rd singular compared to others 2nd plural.
    Which made me think that the 3rd person is a condition for “us”
    literally if someone from us came from {ghaiit} then WE should {tayammamu} if water not found

    what do you think?

    Salam youmu,

    Good catch!

    I check the arabic

    بِوُجُوهِكُمْ

    you are correct!

    Now that you have pointed this out, I will need to "bookmark" this verse and contemplate on alternative understanding which is able to explain the wordings.

    May God increase us in knowledge.

    Wassalam,
    Ade

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    • Y Offline
      Y Offline
      youmu
      wrote on last edited by
      #4

      i'll leave this here
      all the instances of "clean" in my first message should be "wash".
      sorry for the inconvenience

      glad to be of help ade_cool.

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      • N Offline
        N Offline
        nimnimak_11
        wrote on last edited by
        #5

        From verse 56

        clean your faces and your hands to {almarafiq}
        and wipe with your heads and your feet to {alkaabayn}
        and if you were to be avoided then {ttaharuu}

        and if you were sick or on {safar} or someone came from you from {ghaait} or {lamastom} the women then you didn’t find water then {tayammamu ssa3idan tayiban} then wipe with your heads and your hands from it.

        How wiping works
        let’s take for example a table. Let’s say the table is wet from cleaning with “water”.

        When it is said wipe your hand, then your hand should be wiped.
        But if it is said wipe with your hand,then you should wipe something with your hand.

        We wipe the table with a cleaner, the cleaner afterwards is wet.
        I hope you see my point here.

        I originally wanted to talk about this verse
        someone came from you from {ghaait}

        when I was looking at the structure of the verse I found out that this one start with 3rd singular compared to others 2nd plural.
        Which made me think that the 3rd person is a condition for “us”
        literally if someone from us came from {ghaiit} then WE should {tayammamu} if water not found

        what do you think?

        Peace all

        Can we get more eyes on the above please? Does the arabic actually amount to

        clean your faces and your hands to {almarafiq}
        and wipe with your heads and your feet to {alkaabayn}

        I take the Quran seriously. If it says "and wipe with your heads" then the word with changes the meaning dramatically.

        I tried corpus.quran.com, I saw no with there. So I don't know what to believe regarding what is being said in the Quran in this instance. Any help would be appreciated.

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        • G Offline
          G Offline
          good_logic
          wrote on last edited by
          #6

          Peace nimnimak_11 .

          I had the same issue. Why would the word "Bi" -with- be used? and should we wash or wipe our feet?
          Search as I may ,I only found more confusion.
          Then upon studying Qoran more and more and asking the following questions
          Why would GOD ask us to wash/wipe just these 4 things?
          What purpose does it serve? Since other areas are more problematic and should take priority for cleaning like below the arms or underneath ?

          Then I got the following answers using Qoran grammar and style
          First and foremost GOD wants us to do this Remember God's blessing upon you, and His covenant that He covenanted with you you said, "We hear and we obey." You shall observe God; God is fully aware of the innermost thoughts.
          وَاذكُروا نِعمَةَ اللَّهِ عَلَيكُم وَميثٰقَهُ الَّذى واثَقَكُم بِهِ إِذ قُلتُم سَمِعنا وَأَطَعنا وَاتَّقُوا اللَّهَ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَليمٌ بِذاتِ الصُّدورِ-..
          i.e to hear and obey these specific instruction to prepare to connect with your prayer. It has little to do with real cleanness. We can take a bath if we are dirty with soap etc.

          So what does 56 tell us to do?
          1- Wash your face and hands to the elbows
          2-. Wipe our heads- This is obvious because it is not about washing our hair which can be a lengthy task . So easier to wipe quickly.. The "Bi" singles the hair by itself like when you say " Hafidh Bi Amabnatik". Then the "Wa" after that returns the feet to the earlier "wash" instruction- My understanding-.

          However it does not really matter whether you wash or wipe your feet because using water you are wetting to{alkaabayn}.. No problem if one understands either..
          56 a separate preparation for the Salat .not instruction to bath or clean yourself. It is for the purpose of "hear and obey" and part of the Salat..
          Thank you brother.
          GOD bless you.
          Peace.

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          • N Offline
            N Offline
            nimnimak_11
            wrote on last edited by
            #7

            i.e to hear and obey these specific instruction to prepare to connect with your prayer. It has little to do with real cleanness. We can take a bath if we are dirty with soap etc.

            Peace good logic

            Thank you for replying. I'm pretty sure that it's not a matter of physical hygiene. But it also can't be without some real beneficial purpose to it. For example, fasting has many benefits. But ablution? I'll tell you about my experiences regarding this

            I stopped ablution at one point because it did not make sense to me and I felt like sincerity to God would be for me to stop doing ablution. So I decided to avoid upholding what I had no knowledge of. From a hygiene point of view, I felt my face was less clean because I normally only wash my face when I wake up and that's it. It was only because of ablution that I would wash my face twice. So I noticed this difference. But then that would just mean that I wash my face twice a day from a hygiene point of view.

            Also, my hair is in a better state when I wipe my head twice a day. Showering dries the hair, and wiping the head is beneficial in countering this effect. Also, I think if you wipe your feed twice a day, it won't smell at all. So these are the physical benefits that I can think of, which to me, are not essential. As in I can wash my face twice at times that are more convenient, as opposed to necessarily doing it to uphold salat.

            I've upheld Salat both with and without ablution to see if it effects the effectiveness of my salat. To my understanding it does not. Surprisingly, at the moment, I am of the belief that upholding salat at Fajr and Maghreb bring about good results (which is the way I'm upholding salat now), but this is not crystal clear. I've upheld great salats or equally effective salats outside of these times. For the sake of humility, I'm trying the Fajr and Maghreb timings now that I am able to (because I don't have to go to work).

            But what I'm trying to say is that ablution must be clearly beneficial or relevant to salat. If you look at all the roots of the key words in 56, all of them have meanings that can amount to something like purifying, preparing, organising yourself mentally. It can be the case that an interpretation is derived that avoids the notion of a physical ablution. At least this registered with me on some level when I checked the root of those words.

            One thing I'm still unsure of, does the Quran actually say

            and wipe with your heads and your feet to {alkaabayn}

            As in does it actually use the word with? Why did corpus not show this? It has huge impact on the meaning at hand.

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            • G Offline
              G Offline
              good_logic
              wrote on last edited by
              #8

              Peace nimnimak_11
              Thanks for explaining.
              I see.
              I take the whole expression " including "Bi" to mean wipe your head -Face already mentioned ,so without face-
              It does not mean "with your head" like "Ihfadhu Bi Aymanikum" means look after your responsibility not look with it. The "Bi" to me singles out the action of "wipe" the head as separate from wash the face arms and feet.
              That is how I understand it.
              GOD bless you.
              Peace.

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              • N Offline
                N Offline
                nimnimak_11
                wrote on last edited by
                #9

                Peace nimnimak_11
                Thanks for explaining.
                I see.
                I take the whole expression " including "Bi" to mean wipe your head -Face already mentioned ,so without face-
                It does not mean "with your head" like "Ihfadhu Bi Aymanikum" means look after your responsibility not look with it. The "Bi" to me singles out the action of "wipe" the head as separate from wash the face arms and feet.
                That is how I understand it.
                GOD bless you.
                Peace.

                Thank you good logic.

                GOD Bless you too.
                Peace.

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                • F Offline
                  F Offline
                  Fadiva
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #10

                  Salam everyone,

                  If you translate it this way " Wipe with your heads and feets", how would you do it?

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                  • G Offline
                    G Offline
                    good_logic
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #11

                    Peace Fadixa.

                    That would not make sense you need a third noun. Wipe what with your head and feet?
                    Wiping with something is using it to wipe.
                    However the sentence in context of the verse makes sense. "Imsahu Bi Ruusikun"= wipe your heads.
                    My take.
                    GOD bless you.
                    Peace.

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                    • T Offline
                      T Offline
                      tlihawa
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #12

                      Salaamun Alaykum,
                      thank you for bring this topic in. By reading this, something came to my mind. Maybe it's not really related to your question, but let me share my thought.

                      This is one of my thought regarding the benefit of water and exercise that I have put in another forum, so let me put it in here,

                      Reading the story of the prophet Ayyub in Al Quran there are things that are interesting regarding the devil's whisper that can cause laziness, fatigue, even stress that causes depression.

                      3841 And recall Our servant Ayyub, when he called upon his Lord "The devil has afflicted me with distress <binusbin> and suffering <wa adhabin>."

                      We certainly know that this is not a physical distraction from the devil, but rather a whisper that affects the mind and causes stress.

                      Bad mental condition can affect physical health conditions. Satan whispers bad thoughts, such as fear, excessive anxiety, which causes stress to depression. For people who are not strong enough, it can be fatal, which can lead to suicide.

                      And then God responded to the prophet Ayyub's prayer as follows,

                      3842 ur'kuḍ birij'lika hādhā mugh'tasalun bāridun washarābun

                      I translate it as follows,

                      ur'kuḍ =
                      Ra-Kaf-Dad = to move the feet, urge, strike heavily (with foot), fly, run.

                      birij'lika
                      with your foot

                      hādhā
                      This

                      mugh'tasalun
                      water to wash
                      Gh-Siin-Lam = wash, purify, removing of dirt or filth, cleanse; covered much or often; water with which one washes himself; a certain plant growing in places that exude water and produce salt, place for washing, spring.

                      bāridun
                      cool

                      washarābun
                      and a drink

                      So from the above verse it can be seen that to get rid of stress that causes depression or laziness is to run and wash with water.

                      From my personal experience, it is true that exercising, especially running, can reduce or eliminate stress, because when exercising our bodies produce endorphins that make us relax.

                      Now, what does all of this have to do with verse 5 6?

                      In my opinion, verse 5 6 does not stand alone, but relates to 443, because they explain to one another.

                      I will put my own translation here, so you can see the connection between 56, 443 and 3842.

                      But before that I want you to know that my understanding of Salat is studying the Quran at a specified time and then applying these God's rules in daily life.

                      So let see,

                      443
                      yāayyuhā alladhīna āmanū = O you who believe

                      la taqrabū l-ṣalata wa-antum sukārā ḥattā taʿlamū mā taqūlūna = Do not go near SALAT while you are intoxicated until you know what you are saying.

                      walā junuban = and not (when you are) in a distance (to me, it's in respect of relationship with God, could be cause by something that similar to intoxicated. see 591)

                      Jim-Nun-Ba a man who is distant, or remote
                      http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume2/00000102.pdf

                      illa abiri sabīlin ḥattā taghtasilū = except when passing through a way until you have washed

                      *This taghtasilu related to 56 and what prophet Ayyub had done in the past in 3842

                      wa-in kuntum marḍā aw ʿalā safarin aw jāa aḥadun minkum mina l-ghāiṭi aw lāmastumu l-nisāa falam tajidū māan
                      And if you are ill or on a journey or came one of you from the toilet or you have touched he women and you dont find water

                      fatayammamū ṣaʿīdan ṭayyiban
                      then aim (at) good run (or move with quick step faster than when walking)

                      Sad-Ayn-Dal = to ascend, mount, run, move with quick steps faster than when walking, go up, be hard (affair).

                      *Tayammum in corpus
                      (226715) tayammamū aim (at) وَلَا تَيَمَّمُوا الْخَبِيثَ مِنْهُ تُنْفِقُونَ
                      (4433 fatayammamū then do tayammum أَوْ لَامَسْتُمُ النِّسَاءَ فَلَمْ تَجِدُوا مَاءً فَتَيَمَّمُوا صَعِيدًا طَيِّبًا
                      (5640) fatayammamū then do tayyammum

                      fa-im'saḥū biwujūhikum wa-aydīkum
                      and wipe with it your faces and your hands (there will be water coming from your sweat)

                      innal-laha kāna ʿafuwwan ghafūran
                      Indeed, Allah is Oft-Pardoning, Oft-Forgiving.

                      So my conclusion, washing our face and hands with water to get rid of the effects of intoxicate, or by doing exercise (running) if we couldn't find water can be done when it is time for Salat comes (reading the Quran) to reconcile our relationship with God.

                      <a href="https//imgbb.com/"><img src="https//i.ibb.co/CwWNxFz/stress.png" alt="stress" border="0"></a>

                      Finally, fa-igh'silū in 56 is the explanation on how to do taghtasilū in 443 as per mugh'tasalun in 3842. You can verify for yourself, I don't want to cause a debate, I just want to share the ideas which if you agree, you can develop for yourself.

                      Peace

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                      • Y Offline
                        Y Offline
                        youmu33
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #13

                        God increase us in knowledge

                        Peace
                        +nimnimak_11, good logic

                        the way the phrase is formulated is simple enough. still i don't know why they didn't include the "with" or "using" in 56. probably to make other people directly understand what the verse meant by their standards.

                        contemplate on this difference for insight
                        1-draw your left hand
                        2-draw with/using your left hand

                        the intent in that verse is not to wipe something, but to wipe "using" something.
                        "using" is a constrain. if we are doing an action in a specific way, then we are constrainted in that specific way.
                        so for the question what to wipe, that is not a constraint the doer is left to choose whatever he wants. i personally wipe my hands with my head/hair. you're allowed to use other means. not constraining something is making the idea of free choice appear.
                        the end result of the action is the head will be half washed half dry.

                        note that the feet should be wiped( it is the 'what&#039, a clear difference between 'wipe using head' and 'wipe feet'.
                        i use a towel for that.

                        we are free to complete the actions however we want/need as long it met all the constraints in the verse.

                        +Fadiva
                        wipe with your head and wipe your feet.
                        i wipe my hands with my head and i wipe my feet with a towel

                        +tlihawa
                        thank you for your insights especially about ayyoub story.
                        but i beg to differ

                        وَلَا تَيَمَّمُوا الْخَبِيثَ مِنْهُ تُنْفِقُونَ
                        the context here is filtering out the bad of the rizk, giving to the needy what is bad and keeping what is good of your rizk. god ordered us to not do that.
                        tayammum is filtering out what is considered bad

                        ṣaʿīdan ṭayyiban
                        there is a theory that having a quality of ṭayyib makes it more related to something physical rather than a concept. i'm guessing.

                        junuban
                        from quran janaba is "to make {something1} avoid {something2}",
                        from 1435
                        رَبِّ اجْعَلْ هَٰذَا الْبَلَدَ آمِنًا وَاجْنُبْنِي وَبَنِيَّ أَنْ نَعْبُدَ الْأَصْنَامَ

                        i apologize that i don't know what form is used on junuban. if someone can pinpoint where junuban should reside( in something1 or something2) please do so.
                        but generaly you are either avoiding or being avoided (both are not the same as making others avoid something).
                        which gives the image of physical cleaness being dirty and having a bad smell. you not wanting to be embarassed so you avoid, or others not wanting to get dirty so you are being avoided

                        running is not helping with the above with if you can't clean yourself afterwards (no water). that is at least one indication that the verse is not related to exercising.

                        God increase us in knowledge

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                        • F Offline
                          F Offline
                          Fadiva
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #14

                          Peace YouTube,

                          Read 4.43, how do you understand " Fatayammamu sa3iyfan tayyiban famsa7u biwujuhikum wa aydiykum" ?

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