Why shirk is a gross sin and unforgivable!

good_logic

Peace shukri.

All GOD s attributes are good ,describing the perfect being GOD Alone.
So if I say GOD is "Aziz" It means the most powerful- For the good of everyone- i.e GOD does not use His power for evil or injustice.
If one says Pharaoh is powerful, then Pharaoh may use it for good or bad as a human justly and unjustly.

The same for "Mutakabbir" it just means -The most dignified/ does not need anyone or anything-It cannot mean ARROGANT .

Where as humans cannot be "Mutakabbir! in the sense they do not need things, all creations need something as well as GOD.
If a human is Mutakabbir then it is arrogance . Arrogance includes one does not need GOD as well -Shirk_.
Hope that helps.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

shukri

Bro Mazhar/good logic

Thanks for the response.

My last question
If we translate literally word by word and we put "arrogant" instead of "Supreme/the greatened/etc" and leave it to people/readers to interpret by themself. Is it wrong or not?
Because some Quran translations I have seen (If I'm not mistaken one of them authored by Prof. Dr. H. Mahmud Yunus/Indonesian) they use the word "arrogant" instead of other words.

*I'm not from Indonesia but we share the same language

Mazhar

Bro Mazhar/good logic

Thanks for the response.

My last question
If we translate literally word by word and we put "arrogant" instead of "Supreme/the greatened/etc" and leave it to people/readers to interpret by themself. Is it wrong or not?
Because some Quran translations I have seen (If I'm not mistaken one of them authored by Prof. Dr. H. Mahmud Yunus/Indonesian) they use the word "arrogant" instead of other words.

*I'm not from Indonesia but we share the same language

That translator seems not aware that an Active Participle also has a pronoun in it that is referent for a particular entity. And that such words have real sense as well as aspect.

No negative trait is attributable to Allah rhe Exalted.

Noon_waalqalami

That translator seems not aware that an Active Participle also has a pronoun in it that is referent for a particular entity. And that such words have real sense as well as aspect.

No negative trait is attributable to Allah rhe Exalted.

peace, correct not exactly translatable although read in positive not negative

2185 ولتكبروا and to magnify ye of الله the god

5923 المتكبر l-mutakabiru/the magnificent (one) سبحن subhana/glorify be الله the god

1622 مستكبرون who act arrogant being (arrogantly)

717
واستكبروا wa-istakbaru/and acts arrogant they of (with fatha above ت)
استكبرا istikbaran/acts proud of (with small dash i.e. kasra below ت)

7423 ثم furthermore ادبر departs واستكبر wa-istakbara/and acts arrogant

good_logic

If you translate as" GOD IS ARROGANT" you will have a big contradiction with "GOD IS MERCIFUL" and "GOD IS FORGIVING" and -Lahu AL Asmau Alhusna- GOD has only good attributes.
"
MUTAKABBIR for GOD means "Above anyone and anything"/ Has no need for anyone or anything/ Most dignified/ Self sufficient...
GOD bless.
Peace.

shukri

No negative trait is attributable to Allah the Exalted.

For me, it's not a negative trait because He is the Waheed who lives independently and needs nothing from others.
Arrogant only negative for the humans (imperfect entities). The perfect one such as God is different. This trait is the manifestation of His Dignity and the Oneness.

Just my take!

shukri

If you translate as" GOD IS ARROGANT" you will have a big contradiction with "GOD IS MERCIFUL" and "GOD IS FORGIVING" and -Lahu AL Asmau Alhusna- GOD has only good attributes.

I think there is no contradiction. As I mentioned earlier in post 1

"They said "Al Mutakabbir (المُتَكَبِّرُ)" means proud/arrogant. AND that's why if anybody commits shirk, this attribute (Al Mutakabbir) supersedes other attributes such as the Forgiver and the Merciful''

Just imagine a very good person (good behavior, do a lot of charity, etc) will be ended in hellfire if he is an idolater (shirk to Allah a.k.a take other god besides GOD). There is no mercy at all and there is no forgiveness from God. Why? Honestly I do not know the answer, but some people say it is related to the God attribute of Al-Mutakabbir. God is very proud of Himself and will not compromise if His servants take other idols beside Him. That's the only way to describe the 'shirk' is a gross sin and unforgivable. But anyway that's only their opinion, maybe wrong maybe right!

Mazhar

I think there is no contradiction. As I mentioned earlier in post 1

"They said "Al Mutakabbir (المُتَكَبِّرُ)" means proud/arrogant. AND that's why if anybody commits shirk, this attribute (Al Mutakabbir) supersedes other attributes such as the Forgiver and the Merciful''

Just imagine a very good person (good behavior, do a lot of charity, etc) will be ended in hellfire if he is an idolater (shirk to Allah a.k.a take other god besides GOD). There is no mercy at all and there is no forgiveness from God. Why? Honestly I do not know the answer, but some people say it is related to the God attribute of Al-Mutakabbir. God is very proud of Himself and will not compromise if His servants take other idolaters beside Him. That's the only way to describe the 'shirk' is a gross sin and unforgivable. But anyway that's only their opinion, maybe wrong maybe right!

Punishment to criminals is built in part of ArRaheem. Arrogance and proudness has nothing to do with punishment.

shukri

To my friends here,
I just want to repeat my previous question
Please answer it YES or NO (honestly without any pre-assumption or prejudice)

My question is
If we translate literally word by word and we put "arrogant" instead of "Supreme/greatened/etc" and leave it to people to self-interprete themself,
Is it wrong or not?

*What I understand, linguistically Al-Mutakabbir (المتكبر) literally means "The arrogant".
*Google translate also confirmed the same.

Mazhar

To my friends here,
I just want to repeat my previous question
Please answer it YES or NO (honestly without any pre-assumption or prejudice)

My question is
If we translate literally word by word and we put "arrogant" instead of "Supreme/greatened/etc" and leave it to people to self-interprete themself,
Is it wrong or not?

*What I understand, linguistically Al-Mutakabbir (المتكبر) literally means "The arrogant".
*Google translate also confirmed the same.

This is your ASPECT, the way you see something or someone. So no agreement. Arrogance has nothing in reality. It is exaggerating or disposed to exaggerate one's own worth or importance often by an overbearing manner.

When grandeur is reality, it is not arrogance.

Translate it with arrogant?

وَلِتُكْمِلُوا۟ ٱلْعِدَّةَ وَلِتُكَـبِّـرُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ عَلَـىٰ مَا هَدَىٰكُـمْ

Noon_waalqalami

*What I understand, linguistically Al-Mutakabbir (المتكبر) literally means "The arrogant".
*Google translate also confirmed the same.

peace, no need to parse each word use context; google translate is a program by clueless humans.

meem seen
1622 مستكبرون mustakbiruna/who act arrogantly

ya seen
3215 لا not ىستكبرون yastakbiruna/acted arrogantly

It does not say to act arrogant during the fast.
2185 ولتكبروا walitukabbiru/and to magnify ye of الله the god على on ما what هدكم guide you ولعلكم and perhaps you تشكرون thanks giving
2237 لتكبروا litukabbiru/to thou magnify ye of الله the god على on ما what هدكم guide you

alif lam meem
5923 المتكبر l-mutakabiru/the magnificent (one)

Arabic-English Lexicon by Edward William Lane

5 تكبّر and ↓ استكبر (S, K) and ↓ تكابر (K) He magnified himself; behaved proudly, haughtily, or insolently; (K syn. تَعَظَّمَ (S) or تكبّر signifies, as used in the Kur, vii. 143, he considered himself as of the most excellent of the creation, and as having rights which others have not (Zj) or this verb has two significations one of them, he did really good and great actions, exceeding the good actions of others; and hence المُتَكَبِّرُ in the Kur, lix. 23 the other, he affected to do such actions, and boasted of great qualities which he did not possess; as do the generality of men; and hence, مُتَكَبِّر in the Kur, xl. 37; and the verb itself in the Kur, vii. 143 and ↓ استكبر is nearly syn. with تكبّر, and likewise has two significations one of them, he endeavoured, and sought, to become great; and to do so, when the manner and place and time are such as are requisite, is praiseworthy the other, he boasted of qualities which he did possess, and feigned such qualities; and to do so is blameable; and in this sense the verb is used in the Kur, ii. 32 (El-Basáïr) and ↓ تكابر signifies he feigned himself great in estimation or rank or dignity, or in age. (A, TA.) ―

تكبّر عَلَى اللّٰهِ He magnified himself against God, by refusing to accept the truth. (El-Basáïr.) ―

shukri

Thanks bro Mazhar and Bro Noon for the inputs
But i'm still adhering to my believe that the word of Al-Mutakabbir (المُتَكَبِّرُ ) can literally translate as "The arrogant"

Just to wrap up my points
I think the literal meaning of Al-Mutakabbir should be equal to "The arrogant"
The translator should avoid using his opinion in translating quran
Don't be bias or make presumption and prejudice in translating
Just give the literal translation of Al-Mutakabbir (المُتَكَبِّرُ )and it's up to the reader to interpret it

The God's nature will be vague if some God attributes in the quran are not translate literally
Other example is the attribute of Zun-Tiqam (ذُو انتِقامٍ) in verse 34
Some say it's means Lord of Retribution/Able to Requite/capable to revenge/extracting in Revenge/etc
But not many dare to translate it as Avenger (RK) and Vengeful (Arberry)

We as God servants are not entitled to decide which attributes are good or bad.
God is the Wahed who lives independently and needs nothing from others.
Arrogant only a bad trait for humans (imperfect entities) but not for the perfect one such as God.
This trait is the manifestation of His Dignity and The Oneness.

Don't take for granted the attributes of Merciful and Forgiving
Because in some cases these attributes will be superseded by attribute of "The Arrogant"
AND that's why the shirk is unforgivable sin but other sins is "negotiable"

Al-Mutakabbir for me is one of the dominant attributes in God's Asmaul-husna
Shirk in any form is a doom to mankind.
So we must be very careful about the attribute of Al-Mutakabbir!

Ends.
May God keep us away from shirk
Thank you.
*Just my opinion, maybe correct may be not!

Iyyaka

Thanks bro Mazhar and Bro Noon for the inputs
But i'm still adhering to my believe that the word of Al-Mutakabbir (المُتَكَبِّرُ ) can literally translate as "The arrogant"
*Just my opinion, maybe correct may be not!

Salam aleykoum,

So you translate God as "The arrogant" in ? Strange..but your choice.

l-mutakabbir = literally translate as the possessor of all/intense greatness. (Form V which express an intensive sense of form I for this intransitive verb)

Only God can proclaim himself the possessor of a high greatness (it is a fact).
Attributed to humans it takes a negative meaning in the Quran "take pride in sth".

Peace

shukri

More proof that The Oneness should have the attribute of Arrogance (very proud of Himself)
If there were gods in them except for God, then they would have been ruined. Glory be to God, the Lord of the Throne from what they describe (FM translation)
Why, were there gods in earth and heaven other than God, they would surely go to ruin; so glory be to God, the Lord of the Throne, above that they describe! (Arberry)

Now we use Al-Muzzammil Method (https//al-muzzammil.com/relevance_miracle/19_based_calc.html)
Concatenate verse 2122 along with the first verse mentioning a word of المُتَكَبِّرُ in the Quran i.e 5923
AND we get this Code

5923 He is the One God; there is no other god besides Him. The King, the Most Sacred, the Peace, the Most Faithful, the Supreme, the Almighty, the Most Powerful, the Most Dignified (المُتَكَبِّرُ). God be glorified; far above having partners (the first word of المُتَكَبِّرُ mentions in the Quran)
2122 If there were gods in them except for God, then they would have been ruined. Glory be to God, the Lord of the Throne from what they describe.
--> (22) (23) = 117 x 19 ... Verses without chapters
Position 7 Disbelievers ... refers to people mentions in verse 2121
Level 3 Include Missing Information
(Indication Verse 2122 is interrelated to attribute المُتَكَبِّرُ)

shukri

More proof that The Oneness should have the attribute of Arrogance (very proud of Himself)
If there were gods in them except for God, then they would have been ruined. Glory be to God, the Lord of the Throne from what they describe (FM translation)
Why, were there gods in earth and heaven other than God, they would surely go to ruin; so glory be to God, the Lord of the Throne, above that they describe! (Arberry)

Now we use Al-Muzzammil Method (https//al-muzzammil.com/relevance_miracle/19_based_calc.html)
Concatenate verse 2122 along with the first verse mentioning a word of المُتَكَبِّرُ in the Quran i.e 5923
AND we get this Code

5923 He is the One God; there is no other god besides Him. The King, the Most Sacred, the Peace, the Most Faithful, the Supreme, the Almighty, the Most Powerful, the Most Dignified (المُتَكَبِّرُ). God be glorified; far above having partners (the first word of المُتَكَبِّرُ mentions in the Quran)
2122 If there were gods in them except for God, then they would have been ruined. Glory be to God, the Lord of the Throne from what they describe.
--> (22) (23) = 117 x 19 ... Verses without chapters
Position 7 Disbelievers ... refers to people mentions in verse 2121
Level 3 Include Missing Information
(Indication Verse 2122 is interrelated to attribute المُتَكَبِّرُ)

Another proof that The Oneness should have the attribute of Arrogance (very proud of Himself)

1742 Say, "If there were any other gods beside Him, as they claim, they would have tried to overthrow the Possessor of the throne." (RK translation)

Noon_waalqalami

2122 If there were gods in them except for God, then they would have been ruined. Glory be to God, the Lord of the Throne from what they describe.

1742 Say, "If there were any other gods beside Him, as they claim, they would have tried to overthrow the Possessor of the throne."

12100 ورفع and raise ابوىه parents two his على upon العرش the throne (exclude)

العرش the throne 754
العرش the throne 9129
العرش the throne 103
العرش the throne 132
العرش the throne 1742
العرش the throne 205
العرش the throne 2122
العرش the throne 2386
العرش the throne 23116
العرش the throne 2559
العرش the throne 2726
العرش the throne 324
العرش the throne 3975
العرش the throne 407
العرش the throne 4015
العرش the throne 4382
العرش the throne 574
العرش the throne 8120
العرش the throne 8515

7 9 10 13 17 20 21 23 23 25 27 32 39 40 40 43 57 81 85 = 19 x …!

hawk99

To my friends here,
I just want to repeat my previous question
Please answer it YES or NO (honestly without any pre-assumption or prejudice)

My question is
If we translate literally word by word and we put "arrogant" instead of "Supreme/greatened/etc" and leave it to people to self-interprete themself,
Is it wrong or not?

Yes it would be wrong because "arrogant" is a human and jinn character trait,
a flaw, a lie. While Allah has no such flaws.

Remember Iblis was arrogant and was dismissed by Allah. But if Allah says
he is supreme it is a fact, not false or arrogance.

https//aboutislam.net/reading-islam/understanding-islam/god-is-al-mutakabbir-does-it-mean-he-is-arrogant/

peace

shukri

12100 ورفع and raise ابوىه parents two his على upon العرش the throne (exclude)

العرش the throne 754
العرش the throne 9129
العرش the throne 103
العرش the throne 132

7 9 10 13 17 20 21 23 23 25 27 32 39 40 40 43 57 81 85 = 19 x …!

Bro Noon!

I don't understand your Code and its relevance to the topic we are discussing here.
But if you refer to Al-Muzzammil method, please take note that this particular method only uses the combination of "Chapter and verse" or "verses alone" and NOT "Chapter alone". Using Chapter alone without verse is null and void!

shukri

Yes it would be wrong because "arrogant" is a human and jinn character trait,
a flaw, a lie. While Allah has no such flaws.

Remember Iblis was arrogant and was dismissed by Allah. But if Allah says
he is supreme it is a fact, not false or arrogance.

https//aboutislam.net/reading-islam/understanding-islam/god-is-al-mutakabbir-does-it-mean-he-is-arrogant/

peace

Thanks bro hawk99 for your comment and the link.
peace and handshake

shukri

My New Stand
At the beginning of the discussion I feel very unsure about God's attribute of Al-Mutakabbir (المُتَكَبِّرُ)

Quote (Reply #11)
"Just imagine a very good person (good behavior, do a lot of charity, etc) will be ended in hellfire if he is an idolater (shirk to Allah a.k.a take other god besides GOD). There is no mercy at all and there is no forgiveness from God. Why? Honestly I do not know the answer, but some people say it is related to the God attribute of Al-Mutakabbir. God is very proud of Himself and will not compromise if His servants take other idolaters beside Him. That's the only way to describe the 'shirk' is a gross sin and unforgivable. But anyway that's only their opinion, maybe wrong maybe right!"

But with the latest findings of these two verses
2122 Why, were there gods in earth and heaven other than God, they would surely go to ruin; so glory be to God, the Lord of the Throne, above that they describe! (Arberry)
1742 Say, "If there were any other gods beside Him, as they claim, they would have tried to overthrow the Possessor of the throne." (RK)

AND this coding (on Reply #1
"5923 He is the One God; there is no other god besides Him. The King, the Most Sacred, the Peace, the Most Faithful, the Supreme, the Almighty, the Most Powerful, the Most Dignified (المُتَكَبِّرُ). God be glorified; far above having partners (the first word of المُتَكَبِّرُ mentions in the Quran)
2122 Why, were there gods in earth and heaven other than God, they would surely go to ruin; so glory be to God, the Lord of the Throne, above that they describe! (Arberry)
--> (22) (23) = 117 x 19 ... Verses without chapters
Position 7 Disbelievers ... refers to people mentions in verse 2121
Level 3 Include Missing Information
(Indication Verse 2122 is interrelated to attribute المُتَكَبِّرُ)"

Now I am quite sure that the attribute "Arrogance" is one of the "God's asmaul-husna" (as the manifestation of His dignity and the Oneness) and the Quran translation by Prof. Dr. H. Mahmud Yunus (Indonesian) is very correct.

NoteThe attribute of Al-Mutakabbir (المُتَكَبِّرُ) is only for God alone and Not for others. Human/jinn or other God's creations are strictly forbidden.

Thank you.
So long!