Verse 2:238 - "l-ṣalati l-wus'ṭā" ?

Iyyaka

Salam aleykoum Tutti_frutti and wakas,

Thanks for your comments but I have given my arguments in my pdf, taking into account the composition of the text and the relations that its different elements have between them (as opposed to an atomistic reading).

Thus, according to this structural, thematic and lexical analysis, the syntagm "wa-ṣ-ṣalâtu-l-wusṭâ" then means word for word "and the prayer of the right balance/wusṭâ**". That is to say, a balanced prayer; neither too long, because ostentation reveals insincerity, nor too short, because neglect denotes lack of seriousness.
=> the meta-theme of the Quranic passage (2178...242) is based on the principle of equilibrium, i.e. the absence of excess (being between two extremes).

**The term wusṭâ is the feminine of awsaṭ medium, middle, half, in the right balance/way, balanced, median.

Iyyaka

I change my mind on this tricky subject (below - pages 60-63 of the PDF or notes 17, 18 from sura 2)

https//reveniraucoran.fr/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Literary_Composition_of_the_Quran-2021-01-17.pdf

Wakas

I have not read all your work, only pages 60-63. Your translation of 11114 and 3018 is poor. Have you read this?
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/problems-5-salat-Quran.html

Where do you get "noon" from in your interpretation of 629?

Iyyaka

I have not read all your work, only pages 60-63. Your translation of 11114 and 3018 is poor.

I made a mistake in the english PDF I published (it's an old one).
If you click now you will get the right version.
Sorry for the inconvenience.
https//reveniraucoran.fr/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Literary_Composition_of_the_Quran-2021-01-17.pdf (pages 60-64)

My reading has not changed (salat al wusta = the average prayer ) but I have exposed the 6 opinions I know. It's up to each one to make his own opinion on this delicate subject. I also expressed myself badly in my last post. Sorry for that too.

To summarize my point of view (at that moment), there are 3 clear daily prayers in the Quran

morning
evening
dark night (nocturnal vigil)
My translation reflects this state of affairs, in line with what the Arabic language allows from the quranic time.

I have not read all your work, only pages 60-63.

It is a loss for you - structure helps to resolve some meanings, making the textual context more clearly visible.

Have you read this?
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/problems-5-salat-Quran.html

YES.

Where do you get "noon" from in your interpretation of 629?

"Plausible hypothesis" (historical view) based on tradition and quranic text it is in the middle of the day because it is the traditional midday rest time (nap time! cf. 245. Afterwards, people must then disperse to their business occupations (afternoon time seems the more appropriate time).

NB
(301 - tuẓ'hirūna - you are at noon.
https//www.haqeeqat.pk/roots/(926).htm
=> visible-apparent sun + predominant (619) sun = "noon time" (max high) or eventually "in broad daylight"

Mazhar

Root و س ط
Ibn Faris stated

(مقاييس اللغة)

الواو والسين والطاء بناءٌ صحيح يدلُّ على العَدل والنِّصف ووَسْطَ القوم بسكونه

That it leads to the perception of justice and to be in the midst; and for the people in tranquility and calmness.

Lane Lexicon [The middle, midst, or middle part, of a thing; i. e., properly, the part of which several lateral, or outer, portions are equal; as, for instance, the middle finger

https//www.haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/2.238p.gif

These are two sentences, compound by conjunct. The Adjectival Phrase hashttps//www.haqeeqat.pk/roots/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/001.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20Surat%20002/2.143/2.gif Elative Noun Definite; Singular; feminine; genitive.

It denotes location and time frame reference in minimum 5 locations/time zones by solar ephemeris. Relatively in the middle with two on both sides. Two of night and two of day,
https//www.haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/000.%20Encyclopaedia%20of%20Arabic%20of%20Qur'aan/8.%20Deen%20Constitution%20Islam%20and%20its%20protocols/Protocols%20of%20Islam/Salat%20timings.jpg

https//www.haqeeqat.pk/SalatTimings.htm

Iyyaka

Root و س ط
Ibn Faris stated

(مقاييس اللغة)

الواو والسين والطاء بناءٌ صحيح يدلُّ على العَدل والنِّصف ووَسْطَ القوم بسكونه

That it leads to the perception of justice and to be in the midst; and for the people in tranquility and calmness.

Lane Lexicon [The middle, midst, or middle part, of a thing; i. e., properly, the part of which several lateral, or outer, portions are equal; as, for instance, the middle finger

https//www.haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/2.238p.gif

These are two sentences, compound by conjunct. The Adjectival Phrase hashttps//www.haqeeqat.pk/roots/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/001.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20Surat%20002/2.143/2.gif Elative Noun Definite; Singular; feminine; genitive.

It denotes location and time frame reference in minimum 5 locations/time zones by solar ephemeris. Relatively in the middle with two on both sides. Two of night and two of day,
https//www.haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/000.%20Encyclopaedia%20of%20Arabic%20of%20Qur'aan/8.%20Deen%20Constitution%20Islam%20and%20its%20protocols/Protocols%20of%20Islam/Salat%20timings.jpg

https//www.haqeeqat.pk/SalatTimings.htm

Thanks for your study.
But for me the text clearly shows only 3 daily moments (morning, evening and night) and 1 periodic moment (Sura 62 - Al-Jumu`a)
see note 17 and the table (page 60...of the PDF) https//reveniraucoran.fr/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Literary_Composition_of_the_Quran-2021-01-24.pdf

Mazhar

Thanks for your study.
But for me the text clearly shows only 3 daily moments (morning, evening and night) and 1 periodic moment (Sura 62 - Al-Jumu`a)
see note 17 and the table (page 60...of the PDF) https//reveniraucoran.fr/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Literary_Composition_of_the_Quran-2021-01-24.pdf

Five is explicit,

https//www.haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/011.%20Hud%20alaihissalm/11.114.gif

The other two are also mentioned by Time. Since it is time=bound protocol time its zone and limits are given,

The three isnegated in this sentence also

https//www.haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/2.238p.gif

Iyyaka

Five is explicit,
https//www.haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/011.%20Hud%20alaihissalm/11.114.gif

I see only 3 times of prayer in verse morning and evening and night.

The three isnegated in this sentence also
https//www.haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/2.238p.gif

verse - the Quran specifies just at least 3 (with no indication of 4 or 5 or more).
and you interpret the word l-wus'ṭā as referring to a prayer (not the only possibility).

Mazhar

I see only 3 times of prayer in verse morning and evening and night.
verse - the Quran specifies just at least 3 (with no indication of 4 or 5 or more).
and you interpret the word l-wus'ṭā as referring to a prayer (not the only possibility).

The object of preposition is plural meaning 3 and more. The next is also object of prepo by construct evident from genitive case ending and it is singular, The imperative verb applies to both. Since the wusta denotes midst the plural noun stands for four.

Iyyaka

The object of preposition is plural meaning 3 and more. The next is also object of prepo by construct evident from genitive case ending and it is singular, The imperative verb applies to both. Since the wusta denotes midst the plural noun stands for four.

I understand your reasoning.

I understand that you're rejecting

the fact that the word "l-ṣalati" refers to the notion of prayer in general
and therefore, the word "l-wus'ṭā" cannot be translated as "balanced/Non-extreme, moderate, most excellent...".

Now, let's keep the notion of "midst". The question is "midst" of what? with the constraint of a minimum 3 prayers...
The second one is in the middle of the first one and the third one, isn't it ? And the second one is in relation to which starting reference point (the one at dawn? and why not at dusk?).
And the third one is in the middle of the second one and the fourth without necessarily 5 prayers but just 4, isn't it ?
And the fourth is in the middle of the third one and the fifth, isn't it ?
etc..

I am not saying that your reasoning is incorrect, but you must admit that it is influenced by the fact that Muslims practice 5 daily prayers and that this practice "goes back" to the Prophet (pbsl).

Mazhar

I understand your reasoning.

I understand that you're rejecting

the fact that the word "l-ṣalati" refers to the notion of prayer in general
and therefore, the word "l-wus'ṭā" cannot be translated as "balanced/Non-extreme, moderate, most excellent...".

Now, let's keep the notion of "midst". The question is "midst" of what? with the constraint of a minimum 3 prayers...
The second one is in the middle of the first one and the third one, isn't it ? And the second one is in relation to which starting reference point (the one at dawn? and why not at dusk?).
And the third one is in the middle of the second one and the fourth without necessarily 5 prayers but just 4, isn't it ?
And the fourth is in the middle of the third one and the fifth, isn't it ?
etc..

I am not saying that your reasoning is incorrect, but you must admit that it is influenced by the fact that Muslims practice 5 daily prayers and that this practice "goes back" to the Prophet (pbsl).

I am not influenced by anything. I only go by the words of book. It is more than "prayer". When three, the middle is NOT wusta, It is Baina..For Wusta items are 5, 7, 9, Since timings mentioned are 5 thereby midst is wusta.