I am a former Tanakh Jew
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Thank you for your reply. I think I know what you're saying continue in Judaism if I've read right.
Thing is, Tanakh doesn't say what happens after death, what happens to Gentiles (I said the previous two in a previous post, but I didn't clarify too well; sorry about that), why God needs to repent, why God needs to rest, who Messiah is, who 'that Prophet' is, along with other contradictions and ambiguous passages or not saying something on certain topics at all.
I think I read in the Christian Bible that the Jews had 'Elijah', 'the Messiah' and 'the Prophet', three figures who were meant to appear in succession. I'm not a Christian, but it could be a reference to Jonathan the Baptiser, Jesus and Muhammad (pbuh).
Peace
My answer is primarily to whether we need a scripture to be able to submit to God alone. So Gentiles too can have the ability to be able to submit to God Alone without any scripture by his reasoning. And whoever does that and do good work they will have their reward in hereafter.
Lets see the example from Abraham
675 And it is such that We showed Abraham the kingdom of the heavens and the earth, so that he will be of those who have certainty.
676 When the night covered him, he saw a planet, and he said, "This is my Lord." But when it disappeared he said, "I do not like those that disappear."
677 So when he saw the moon rising, he said "This is my Lord." But when it disappeared he said "If my Lord does not guide me, then I will be among the wicked people!"
678 So when he saw the sun rising, he said, "This is my Lord, this is bigger." But when it disappeared he said, "My people, I am innocent of what you have set up."
679 "I shall turn my face to the One who initiated the heavens and the earth, in monotheism, and I am not of the polytheists."So Abraham was able to come to the conclusion that there is a supreme being who has created us and everything in heavens and earth. Its in our DNA to search for our creator as all of us testified already.
7172 When your Lord took from the children of Adam from their backs, their progeny; and He made them witness over themselves "Am I not your Lord?" They said, "Yes, we bear witness." Thus you cannot say on the day of Resurrection that you were unaware of this.
Once we are in that mindset and submitted to God Alone then we can explore if God has sent us any messages. If we try to find we will see that yes God has sent messengers and scriptures as per our ability.
Gentiles are the people who never received any scripture.
278 Amongst them are Gentiles who do not know the book except by hearsay, and they only conjecture.
Both Gentiles and the people of the book can submit to God alone
320 If they debate with you, then say, "I have peacefully surrendered myself to God, as well as those who follow me." In addition, say to those who were given the book and the Gentiles "Have you peacefully surrendered?" If they have peacefully surrendered then they are guided; but if they turn away, then you are only to deliver. God is watcher over the servants.
Before the revelation of the Quran Muhammad was a Gentile(He did not have knowledge of Torah or Injil) and he was sent to Gentiles.
7157 "Those who follow the gentile prophet whom they find written for them in the Torah and the Injeel; he orders them to goodness, deters them from evil, he makes lawful for them the good things, he forbids for them the evil, and he removes their burden and the shackles imposed upon them. So those who acknowledged him, honored him, supported him, and followed the light that was sent down with him; these are the successful."
7158 Say, "O people, I am God's messenger to you all. The One who has the sovereignty of heavens and earth, there is no god but He; He gives life and causes death." So acknowledge God and His gentile prophet, who acknowledges God and His words; and follow him that you may be guided.
622 He is the One who sent to the Gentiles a messenger from among themselves, to recite to them His signs, to purify them, to teach them the book and the wisdom. Before this, they were clearly astray.
Issa/Esau ibne Mariam Messiah was sent to the Children of Israel who were people of the book. (I am not quite convinced that Jesus/YESHUA and Issa/Esau are the same person. I recommend reading the book "Who Was Jesus? A Conspiracy in Jerusalem" by Kamal Salibi) .
616 When Issa, son of Mariam, said, "O children of Israel, I am God's messenger to you, authenticating what is present with me of the Torah and bringing good news of a messenger to come after me whose name will be ‘most acclaimed.'" But when he showed them the clear proofs, they said, ‘This is clearly magic.
So yes the prophet mentioned in the Injil is Muhammad.
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Hello
My name is Mordy.
I am a former Tanakh Jew, basically a sola-scriptura Jew, similar to a Karaite Jew. What that meant was that I viewed Tanakh (the Hebrew Bible) as the sole infallible ‘Word of God’.
Shalom Mordy.. Baruch Haba.. welcome
My Tanakh Jewish faith fell apart back in March this year when I continued to find contradictions within the Biblical text and with recorded history.
This meant I could no longer be a Jew, non-rabbinic or rabbinic, and it also meant I couldn’t be a Christian either. To me the scripture of a religion should stand alone, tradition-less and free of opinion. In the last verse of Judges it says not to make our own opinion (as Karaites do – they say ‘search the scripture well’ and only to go with the weight of evidence, but personal opinion, grounded in Biblical exegesis, is what they say to do), yet the rabbinic opinions in the ‘oral law’ contradict the Written Law, so both rabbinic and non-rabbinic Judaism was out of the question.
Islam is much closer to Judaism than Christianity is, plus Tanakh and Karaite Jews pray by full prostration, albeit in the direction of the Western Wall in Jerusalem.
I am happy to be here, and I will continue reading the Qur’an, but the hadith are traditions on top of scripture, so a Muslim sola-scriptura movement would be more appealing. Sorry if I got the wrong impression or you found that offensive.
Thank you for reading.
Then you will soon evolve from "Sola Scriptura" and more towards "Solus Deus"..
No books is perfect only God is..My answer is primarily to whether we need a scripture to be able to submit to God alone. So Gentiles too can have the ability to be able to submit to God Alone without any scripture by his reasoning. And whoever does that and do good work they will have their reward in hereafter.
Exactly....
Moses. Aaron, Miriam never read the Tanakh, Jesus never read the Gospel and it's doubtful that Muhammad ever read the Quran in the current form and version as of to date. Abraham never read any of the above.
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Shalom Mordy.. Baruch Haba.. welcome
Then you will soon evolve from "Sola Scriptura" and more towards "Solus Deus"..
No books is perfect only God is..Exactly....
Moses. Aaron, Miriam never read the Tanakh, Jesus never read the Gospel and it's doubtful that Muhammad ever read the Quran in the current form and version as of to date. Abraham never read any of the above.
If no book is perfect then God is also not perfect... rotfl....to say this you have to be perfect bravo
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Huh?? What an odd logic.. rotfl
Hmm.... Yeah... Let's see whether logic is Odd...
You said "No books is perfect only God is"...... let's see how do you claim that and with what authority....Somehow God is perfect for you.... And the book the God claim is His is not perfect for you... In your "No books" quran also should be comprised... Isn't it? Coz that's what your statement elaborate manifestly....
So the book that God tells is not perfect, and the book that God tells that there is God is not perfect while He promised to preserve the book and confirms that in the book no contradiction.... Even such book also not perfect for you... So the one claim as author also has to be imperfect in your statemnt... How did you know that God is perfect without a book... How did you know in the first place that God does exist to be precise without a book claiming so from God to call He is perfect... . To call something perfect, better study that first... Or to call something imperfect (for example all books) you have to be superior than the authors of the book.. Simply you have to be perfect than God's book to call it imperfect...
Words are easier to say brother Jafer....So God's SPEECH (quran) is not perfect but God perfect... What a blinder... Speech is imperfect but God is perfect.. Lol
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Peace
My answer is primarily to whether we need a scripture to be able to submit to God alone. So Gentiles too can have the ability to be able to submit to God Alone without any scripture by his reasoning. And whoever does that and do good work they will have their reward in hereafter.
Lets see the example from Abraham
675 And it is such that We showed Abraham the kingdom of the heavens and the earth, so that he will be of those who have certainty.
676 When the night covered him, he saw a planet, and he said, "This is my Lord." But when it disappeared he said, "I do not like those that disappear."
677 So when he saw the moon rising, he said "This is my Lord." But when it disappeared he said "If my Lord does not guide me, then I will be among the wicked people!"
678 So when he saw the sun rising, he said, "This is my Lord, this is bigger." But when it disappeared he said, "My people, I am innocent of what you have set up."
679 "I shall turn my face to the One who initiated the heavens and the earth, in monotheism, and I am not of the polytheists."So Abraham was able to come to the conclusion that there is a supreme being who has created us and everything in heavens and earth. Its in our DNA to search for our creator as all of us testified already.
7172 When your Lord took from the children of Adam from their backs, their progeny; and He made them witness over themselves "Am I not your Lord?" They said, "Yes, we bear witness." Thus you cannot say on the day of Resurrection that you were unaware of this.
Once we are in that mindset and submitted to God Alone then we can explore if God has sent us any messages. If we try to find we will see that yes God has sent messengers and scriptures as per our ability.
Gentiles are the people who never received any scripture.
278 Amongst them are Gentiles who do not know the book except by hearsay, and they only conjecture.
Both Gentiles and the people of the book can submit to God alone
320 If they debate with you, then say, "I have peacefully surrendered myself to God, as well as those who follow me." In addition, say to those who were given the book and the Gentiles "Have you peacefully surrendered?" If they have peacefully surrendered then they are guided; but if they turn away, then you are only to deliver. God is watcher over the servants.
Before the revelation of the Quran Muhammad was a Gentile(He did not have knowledge of Torah or Injil) and he was sent to Gentiles.
7157 "Those who follow the gentile prophet whom they find written for them in the Torah and the Injeel; he orders them to goodness, deters them from evil, he makes lawful for them the good things, he forbids for them the evil, and he removes their burden and the shackles imposed upon them. So those who acknowledged him, honored him, supported him, and followed the light that was sent down with him; these are the successful."
7158 Say, "O people, I am God's messenger to you all. The One who has the sovereignty of heavens and earth, there is no god but He; He gives life and causes death." So acknowledge God and His gentile prophet, who acknowledges God and His words; and follow him that you may be guided.
622 He is the One who sent to the Gentiles a messenger from among themselves, to recite to them His signs, to purify them, to teach them the book and the wisdom. Before this, they were clearly astray.
Issa/Esau ibne Mariam Messiah was sent to the Children of Israel who were people of the book. (I am not quite convinced that Jesus/YESHUA and Issa/Esau are the same person. I recommend reading the book "Who Was Jesus? A Conspiracy in Jerusalem" by Kamal Salibi) .
616 When Issa, son of Mariam, said, "O children of Israel, I am God's messenger to you, authenticating what is present with me of the Torah and bringing good news of a messenger to come after me whose name will be ‘most acclaimed.'" But when he showed them the clear proofs, they said, ‘This is clearly magic.
So yes the prophet mentioned in the Injil is Muhammad.
Peace... ST1111
Good points...let's start everything from the very beginning... God promised of guidance..so it cannot be just imagination but through an Angel messenger to human... So God has communicated from the beginning... Below verse confirms it...
238 "We said, "Go down from it, all of you. And when GUIDANCE comes to you from Me, whoever follows My guidance - there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they grieve."9010 "And have shown him the two ways?" further read 763 and 169 which speaks of two paths....
God may put us in right track without a book but to get confirmed for self it requires a book..
Very fair your comments sighting Ibrahim... But was Ibrahim confirmed himself till he received revelation is key... Even Ibrahim wanted confirmation after revelation for which he was requested to train birds and kill them and put in mountains... It was unnecessary if he was perfectly agreed... Something perplexed him...
So, I think we need guidance from God in writing as well invisible. That's my view and I don't confirm it.. But I feel for me I need a book and without it I may not be I am right now...
People may still get guided without book but with God's invisible guidance but I believe such would in the end turn to book... I wonder after God guided one and not let approach His book...
It's my perception only not a debate to negate... Refer 7146 also for supportSimple way if we explain.... For any new thing better to have a manual to refer from the producer.. Though may able to make it function.. But better manual.. Isn't it.. So.. Better the book from God to avert confusion... Remember my personal view ...can differ people to people...
God bless you... -
Peace... ST1111
Good points...let's start everything from the very beginning... God promised of guidance..so it cannot be just imagination but through an Angel messenger to human... So God has communicated from the beginning... Below verse confirms it...
238 "We said, "Go down from it, all of you. And when GUIDANCE comes to you from Me, whoever follows My guidance - there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they grieve."9010 "And have shown him the two ways?" further read 763 and 169 which speaks of two paths....
God may put us in right track without a book but to get confirmed for self it requires a book..
Very fair your comments sighting Ibrahim... But was Ibrahim confirmed himself till he received revelation is key... Even Ibrahim wanted confirmation after revelation for which he was requested to train birds and kill them and put in mountains... It was unnecessary if he was perfectly agreed... Something perplexed him...
So, I think we need guidance from God in writing as well invisible. That's my view and I don't confirm it.. But I feel for me I need a book and without it I may not be I am right now...
People may still get guided without book but with God's invisible guidance but I believe such would in the end turn to book... I wonder after God guided one and not let approach His book...
It's my perception only not a debate to negate... Refer 7146 also for supportSimple way if we explain.... For any new thing better to have a manual to refer from the producer.. Though may able to make it function.. But better manual.. Isn't it.. So.. Better the book from God to avert confusion... Remember my personal view ...can differ people to people...
God bless you...Peace Jkhan,
My point was what will happen to Gentiles(People who never received any book or messenger) . God has created us with the innate ability to submit to the Creator and discern good and bad and chose the right path as God guides us to both paths.
9010 We guided him to both paths?
9011 He should choose the better path.Do we always need a scripture to chose the right path?
With or without scripture Good people will chose the right path and Bad people will chose the wrong path. So its possible to be a Muslim without a scripture and ask God to guide us and do good work.
3030 So establish yourself to the system of monotheism. It is the inclination that God has nurtured the people on. There is no changing in the creation of God. Such is the pure system, but most of the people do not know.
The term fitrah, rendered as "natural disposition/inclination", connotes in this context man's inborn, intuitive ability to discern between right and wrong, true and false, and, thus, to sense God's existence and oneness.
However the people who have received book and messenger there is no excuse to reject it and not to follow it. And once we believe in the veracity of the book and follow its instructions we become Mumin.
4165 Messengers who were bearers of good news and warners, so that there will be no excuse for the people with God after the messengers. God is Noble, Wise.
And God said for every nation there is messenger
1047 For every nation is a messenger; so when their messenger comes, the matter is decreed between them with justice, and they are not wronged.
So probably every nation in this world probably got messengers and some sort of scripture. Quran is the last scripture.
619 Say, "Which is the greatest testimony?" Say, "God is witness between me and you, and He has inspired to me this Quran that I may warn you with it and whomever it reaches. Do you bear witness that along with God are other gods?" Say, "I do not bear witness!" Say, "He is only One god, and I am innocent of your setting up partners!
And I think Quran has reached everyone in this era of communication. I don't think there will be any gentiles left in the world. Anyone who wishes to be guided has the means to search and recognize the true message.
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Dear Fellow believer STl1111
I think it is interesting... Better you create a new topic since it is under introduction... It won't be easy to search later for anyone who is interested whether scriptures are must for our salvation. I don't know whether it is discussed previously in this forum if not create a new one and link this also. People may have their various opinion. For me I feel I need a book for better grasp things.... It's God's duty to send guidance if He created us... Am I right? Coz we don't know what is right for salvation. . we can be good people and do all the good in the world but still may reject God...like my budhist friends.... So I think book worthy having saying who the God is. Just my preference ....
If we answer simply to the question of Kyrate (where do gentiles go after their death) then below verse would suffice. Remember the people of the below verse were gentiles...
3103 "And hold firmly to the rope of Allah all together and do not become divided. And remember the favor of Allah upon you - when you were enemies and He brought your hearts together and you became, by His favor, brothers. And you were on the edge of a pit of the Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus does Allah make clear to you His verses that you may be guided"
God guides whom He wills........ 3101 "......Whoever holds firmly to Allah will be shown a way that is straight"
As per 3101 initiation is within oneself then only approaches...
Ibrahim had the initiative and God strengthened it..If in fact without book if people can be guided then God would not have sent messengers and guidance reiterating with examples .. Only God could have inspired those who deserve guidance... He does anyway but He used angel messengers to communicate with us with clarity... That ended as books..
Book won't guide but God guides... Book can misguide... Isn't it... So... God is key... He may use book or whatever He created to guide those who deserve... But in general God's side should be safe... People may say on the day of ressurection we didn't get guidance or messages .. So God can prove I sent messengers to all community with respective witnesses .. God records everything with knowledge coz he knows human....
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Kyrate welcome
Greetings and Peace, all group
The definition of a particular faith varies from one person to another. If a Christian is one who follows the teachings of Jesus, and a practitioner of Judaism is one who follows the teachings of Moses, it stands to follow that a Muslim is also a Christian and a follower of Judaism. Monotheism is monotheism.
2136 Say "We believe in God and in what was sent down to us and what was sent down to Abram, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the Patriarchs, and what was given to Moses and Jesus, and what was given to the prophets from their Lord; we do not make a distinction between any of them and to Him we submit."
2285 The messenger believes in what was sent down to him from his Lord; and the believers, all who believe in God, and His angels, and His Books, and His messengers "We do not make a distinction between any of His messengers;" and they said "We hear and obey, forgive us our Lord, and to You is our destiny."
384 Say "We believe in God and what was sent down to us and what was sent down to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Patriarchs, and what was given to Moses and Jesus and the prophets from their Lord. We do not make a distinction between any of them, and to Him we submit."
4152 And those who believe in God and His messengers and do not make a distinction between any of them, We will give them their recompense. And God is Forgiving, Merciful.
569 Surely those who believe, and those who are Jewish, and the Sabians, and the Nazarenes, whoever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good works; then they will have nothing to fear nor will they grieve.
4829 Mohammed is the messenger of God, and those with him are severe against the rejecters, merciful between themselves. You see them kneeling and prostrating, seeking the blessings and approval of God. Their distinction is in their faces, as a result of prostrating. Such is their example in the Torah. And their example in the Gospel is like a plant which shoots out and becomes strong and thick and it stands straight on its trunk, pleasing to the farmers. That He may enrage the rejecters with them. God promises those among them who believe and do good works forgiveness and a great reward.
The core of the Holy Bible is still good. Sure, it may say that rabbits chew cud and that shellfish are not good to eat. Let me expound on the shellfish part
2267 For every nation We have established rites which they are to fulfill. So do not let the matter fall into dispute. And call upon your Lord, for you are on a guidance which is straight.
For myself, I find little need from the Holy Bible when I find the same message with fewer distortions in Al Qur'an (commonly abbreviated as AQ).
May the Almighty see fit to guide all seekers.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Hi Abdul-Hadi
I found discrepancies in the Hebrew Bible, just as you have. The Qur'an explains things completely and clearly, while the Hebrew Bible doesn't.
When I was a Tanakh Jew I prostrated in prayer, kept kosher and the Sabbaths and Festivals but I always felt there was something missing. I did wonder if it was later prophets, and came to believe in Muhammad (pbuh) in winter 2019, and then became a Sunni the following March, and at the point I accepted Qur'an-centric Islam my faith felt, and feels, complete. My soul now feels whole.
Hi rh. Peace be upon you too.
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Welcome Kyrate.
