New article: salat timings as per The Quran

Iyyaka

Another observation, the context as noticed by a member. I checked again the verses and I noted

2.235. Marriage proposal concerning widows
2.236. Divorce and non appointed faridatan
2.237. Divorce and appointed faridatan
2.238 . Hafizou 3ala al salawati wal salati al wusta...
2.239. If fear do on foot or rukbanan. If safe do it as teached...
2.240. Testament for the spouses.
2.241. Divorce and allowance

Any thought?

We will talk about the rest later if needed, inchaAllah.

Salam,

For the structure of this passage which is inside an another bigger structure see the link at page 43 from the pdf and related notes
https//reveniraucoran.fr/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Literary_Composition_of_the_Quran-2021-01-24.pdf

Peace

Iyyaka

peace Fadiva,
Have you read these articles
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/salat-timings-Quran.html

Peace Wakas,

I re-read your article again and i qote you "Overwhelming evidence from The Quran suggests the regular/timed salat of the mumineen/believers is a minimum of twice daily, with an optional night vigil"

The problem comes from the verse where the arabic word "l-ṣalawāti" (minimum 3) appears.
So, what is at minimum the third prayer ?

Wakas

peace,

Peace Wakas,

I re-read your article again and i qote you "Overwhelming evidence from The Quran suggests the regular/timed salat of the mumineen/believers is a minimum of twice daily, with an optional night vigil"

The problem comes from the verse where the arabic word "l-ṣalawāti" (minimum 3) appears.
So, what is at minimum the third prayer ?

At the end of the article

Background reading links
An Understanding of salat from Al Quran (The Reading)
The common problems with 5 salat daily timings as per The Quran - Part 1
The common problems with 5 salat daily timings as per The Quran - Part 2
According to Traditional Islamic sources how many times did the earliest Muslims perform salat?
Articles and past discussions about timings reference one two three four five six seven eight nine ten eleven twelve

Specifically part 11 of
https//mypercept.co.uk/articles/problems-5-salat-Quran.html
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/problems-5-salat-quran.pdf

Please see the pdf version because I just realised there is a small part missing from the webpage which I will fix later.

Iyyaka

Ok - but not easy to find your opinion for the word l-ṣalawāti in verse (here it is https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7727.msg195966#msg195966).

So, to avoid a contradiction, you definied the meaning of the word "l-ṣalawāti" as not a reference to a ritual prayer.
You used the verse to admit your conclusion. I think you can include the verse too.
But the context is not the same, and it is clear in the segment that God points toward ritual prayers (verse 239 is not ambiguous with the context of war like in ).

Notes 16 to 20 may help you to have a better view of the structuration of the passage D' (from verse 2178 to verse 2242), especially note 20 (page 65 here https//reveniraucoran.fr/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Literary_Composition_of_the_Quran-2021-01-24.pdf).

NB
I would like to take this opportunity to answer again on a point on which you questioned me (link here -> https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9611227.0), I quote you "Context doesn't mention length/duration".
Yes you're right, but it is the same for charity/alms in the verse (no precise indication) "Do not keep your hand chained to your neck, nor open it too wide, otherwise you will find yourself blamed, full of remorse."
=> Once again we find the theme of moderation, of the golden mean that at the heart of the passage D'.

Wakas

I'm not sure why but it seems you avoid addressing any of the points I raise in the article. Let's start with the very first one

In 2238 The Quran makes no reference to the "salawaat" being "in a day"

This point alone is enough to critically damage your initial claim of
"The problem comes from the verse where the arabic word "l-ṣalawāti" (minimum 3) appears.
So, what is at minimum the third prayer ?"

Iyyaka

I'm not sure why but it seems you avoid addressing any of the points I raise in the article. Let's start with the very first one

This point alone is enough to critically damage your initial claim of
"The problem comes from the verse where the arabic word "l-ṣalawāti" (minimum 3) appears.
So, what is at minimum the third prayer ?"

I'm not sure why but it seems you avoid addressing any of the remarks i made to you (Did you even click on the link i gave you ? i am not sure..).

You seems so convinced that you have analyzed all the options and come to the only valid conclusion that finally there is no place for a real debate.

Why the Quran needed to add the expression "in a day" ? I don't understand this argument and how it can "damage my initial claim".
The Quran tells you to observe carefully (imperative form) the prayers you have to perform ? how many different and obligatory ones are there ? 2 according to you but the word refers to 3 minimum. So, the question is quite simple where is (at least) the third prayer in your reflection?

In addition, in the word "l-ṣalawāti" you find the lam of determination.
+
Verb (form III) - to guard
(22381) ḥāfiẓū Guard strictly حَافِظُوا عَلَى الصَّلَوَاتِ وَالصَّلَاةِ الْوُسْطَىٰ
(69222) yuḥāfiẓūna (are) guarding وَهُمْ عَلَىٰ صَلَاتِهِمْ يُحَافِظُونَ
(2395) yuḥāfiẓūna they guard وَالَّذِينَ هُمْ عَلَىٰ صَلَوَاتِهِمْ يُحَافِظُونَ
(70345) yuḥāfiẓūna keep a guard وَالَّذِينَ هُمْ عَلَىٰ صَلَاتِهِمْ يُحَافِظُونَ
=> Note the difference in sentence structure and grammatical form between verse and the other 3. In these three verses it is about evoking all the prayers of all believers, whereas in verse 238 it is about believers observing THE prescribed prayers.

good_logic

Here is the problem that I can see with this verse

حٰفِظوا عَلَى الصَّلَوٰتِ وَالصَّلوٰةِ الوُسطىٰ وَقوموا لِلَّهِ قٰنِتينَ

You shall consistently guard/look after/observe... THE SALAWAT, and/ also/especially THE SALAT ALWASTA and devote yourselves totally to God.

What are "THE SALAWAT"? Why mention another" THE SALAT ALWUATA" with them? What is the meaning of "KUMU kANITEEN"?

The "AL" in Arabic denotes something known/specific. The prophet and believers knew exactly what to Guard/ look after...consistently,Or didn t they?

Should "in a day" be a question? Why?

One would easily argue there is no "in a day" or" in a week" or" in a year" or "in your lifetime" in the verse. So what can be the most logical? The most likely? Or has the verse got nothing to do with prayers?

The next verse will shed light on this
فَإِن خِفتُم فَرِجالًا أَو رُكبانًا فَإِذا أَمِنتُم فَاذكُرُوا اللَّهَ كَما عَلَّمَكُم ما لَم تَكونوا تَعلَمونَ
If you fear/Under unusual circumstances, you may ( Guard/Hafidhu them - The Salawat and The Salat Al Wusta )walking or riding. Once you are safe/back to normal circumstances-, you shall commemorate God as He taught you what you never knew.
Why "Udhkuru" commemorate-?

For me both verses are most likely talking about the "connection/prayers£ subscribed .
The terms "KUMU KANETEEN" AND "UDHKURU ALLAH" used are both are also used for the Salat that Qoran prescribed to Moses before " Wa Aquimi The Salat Li Dhikri"

In my opinion Qoran is talking about guarding consistently the "daily prayers" even when busy with work and travel "daily" i.e under unusual circumstances.

NOTE With 2 prayers per day one can never have 1 Salat wusta as the numbers are always even whether per day, per week or per year.?
GOD bless .
Peace.

Iyyaka

The next verse will shed light on this
فَإِن خِفتُم فَرِجالًا أَو رُكبانًا فَإِذا أَمِنتُم فَاذكُرُوا اللَّهَ كَما عَلَّمَكُم ما لَم تَكونوا تَعلَمونَ
If you fear/Under unusual circumstances, you may ( Guard/Hafidhu them - The Salawat and The Salat Al Wusta )walking or riding. Once you are safe/back to normal circumstances-, you shall commemorate God as He taught you what you never knew.
Why "Udhkuru" commemorate-?
For me both verses are most likely talking about the "connection/prayers£ subscribed .
The terms "KUMU KANETEEN" AND "UDHKURU ALLAH" used are both are also used for the Salat that Qoran prescribed to Moses before " Wa Aquimi The Salat Li Dhikri"
In my opinion Qoran is talking about guarding consistently the "daily prayers" even when busy with work and travel "daily" i.e under unusual circumstances.

Peace Good logic,

Thanks for your contribution - yes the context in is obvious and this verse is naturally linked to the previous verse.

I add an intra-textual proof on the subject of verse 239 the expression "ʿallamakum mā takūnū taʿlamūna" is found almost identically in another verse, verse which unambiguously deals with the common prayer performed by the prophet (pbsl).

Fadiva

Salam,

True. While debating one should point all the passages he doesn't agree and give proof or at least show why his understanding is different.

Just a few points and questions

I noticed
Salati al fajri, salati al 3ichai and wal (wa +al) salati al wusta which seems different from the others in its formulation. Fajri, 3achai but wusta. Seems like fajri and 3chai translate a period of time but not wusta (adjective).

2.238 where is the word "especially"? Have you read all the verses with the word wa and derive from it " And especially " ?
Why should one be more likely forget or do not a salat during the day than salat al fajri for instance?
You've mentioned because of business. But in some countries, where it's hot, one can notice that a lot of people don't open their shops or don't work until 3 or 4 p.m.

On this verse we can read salawati which seems to be a plural meaning a minimum of three and we can read
wal salati al wusta so if we don't add a word one can understand here a minimum of 4 salats unless he proves that it it is "especially". One other can understand all the salats and the how salat should be (wusta as adjective).

And we can read 24.58

Here one translation
Arberry O believers, let those your right hands own and those of you who have not reached puberty ask leave of you three times -- before the prayer of dawn, and when you put off your garments at the noon, and after the evening prayer -- three times of nakedness for you. There is no fault in you or them, apart from these, that you go about one to the other. So God makes clear to you the signs; and God is All-knowing, All-wise.

By just reading not deducing, salat of dawn, evening salat but "when you put off your garments at the noon".

Good logic said
"Should "in a day" be a question? Why?

One would easily argue there is no "in a day" or" in a week" or" in a year" or "in your lifetime" in the verse. So what can be the most logical? The most likely? Or has the verse got nothing to do with prayers?"

Why should be "in a day" In verse 2.238 the most likely? Can you explain it?

Why should one deduce from " When you put off your garments at noon", that it is a salat while it is mentioned for dawn and dusk?

I am just pointing some things.
I am trying to be as honest as possible and not saying you're right or I'm right.
But read, reread, notice, not deduce to fast we have to read all the verses.
Question yourself. We are humans, we can mistakes.

So maybe it's better the restart and take point by point the claimimgs and give proofs he you have.

nimnimak_11

Peace all

So I followed the discussion between good logic and Wakas till around page 6 of this thread and wanted to say the following

First of all, Wakas, to me, you seemed hostile towards Good logic. You asked for feedback with such passion that you offered money, then, when feedback was given, your manner of debating was not good in my opinion.

I read Good logic's posts and yours and I think he was more justified than you (not just in the manner of debating (I reckon I would have retaliated to some of your sarcasm), but also in what was being said with regards to duluk al-shams). I did not see him necessarily pushing for something firm regarding salat overall in what I would describe as an oppressive manner, whereas I think this was true of you. He highlighted one thing that was pretty clear

Duluk al shams is when the sun begins to decline (if you are going to take duluk to mean decline that is). This is clear. There is no need to try and force additionals after you take duluk to mean decline. By this I mean there is no need to argue that this is specifically in reference to sunset. To my interpretation of you, you were only doing this to try and make it fit with your idea of what Salat is (not just the timing of salat, but salat itself). Whereas good logic was just highlighting something that is clear (duluk al shams cannot be taken to mean sunset without bias being involved).

Wakas

peace n11,

Thanks for your take but I cannot take your main point seriously, quote
"Duluk al shams is when the sun begins to decline (if you are going to take duluk to mean decline that is). This is clear."

Anyone who looks at the classical Arabic meanings can easily see this is obviously not the case. At most one can say it can theoretically mean what you said.

http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm

= Dal-Lam-Kaf = rubbing, squeezing, pressing, decline, sinking, become red, set, incline downwards from the meridian (sun). The phrase "duluk-as-shams" defined as "sunset" / setting of the sun / the sun became high, by Lane.

Quote "Whereas good logic was just highlighting something that is clear (duluk al shams cannot be taken to mean sunset without bias being involved)."

Just like bias is involved in any other chosen meaning (since it's only used once). I'm the one who pointed this out so you're in agreement with me. I came up with a simple way to minimise bias, i.e. slot in whatever understanding/options there are and see what happens with each one. Unfortunately simplicity is not often appreciated.

nimnimak_11

Peace Wakas

It's good to hear from you and engage you in conversation again.

Anyone who looks at the classical Arabic meanings can easily see this is obviously not the case. At most one can say it can theoretically mean what you said.

You are right. What I was trying to convey was that if we take duluk to mean "decline", then we should take it to refer to when the sun begins to decline (which begins at noon). If we take it to mean sunset, then we have ignored all the previous points of the decline of the sun (which feels incomplete or inconsistent to me).

Just like bias is involved in any other chosen meaning (since it's only used once).

Ok, but good logic's bias was of one layer, whereas I felt yours was two-fold. By this I mean a meaning had to be chosen and discussed regarding the word "duluk". Both you and good logic seemed to agree to focus on "decline". Good logic did not project anything extra. I think it was an excessive stretch to assert that the decline of the sun mentioned in 1778 is only in reference to sunset. This is where you asked for each other for proof of who was right, whereas I think the burden of proof was exclusively on you (because good logic was being consistent with the meaning "decline" without over-stretching. You were over-stretching and thus needed to prove that this over-stretching was justified). Again, you had both agreed on the "decline" aspect of duluk.

I'm the one who pointed this out so you're in agreement with me. I came up with a simple way to minimise bias, i.e. slot in whatever understanding/options there are and see what happens with each one. Unfortunately simplicity is not often appreciated.

I agree that we should slot in whatever understanding/option there are and then choose whichever's most sincere to God/Good/Truth.

Simplicity is good, and I think we have to recognise that one possible reason the Quran is not clear to us at times, is because our sincerity to God is not clear/pure/unbiased/consistent for us to be worthy of such clarity. To me, we're all in a race to see who is least evil/unfair in relation to God/Truth/Goodness.

In our attempts to obtain truth/understanding from God, if we overstep, we may deprive ourselves of the correct understanding, and then end up upholding an incorrect understanding (incorrect in that we feel/think it insincere to God but uphold it anyway) which could either deprive of us of greater goods, or worse, bring us hardship. The right effect (genuine awe of existing in Existence/God) has to fall into place. It requires that we truly depend on the Godliness/Perfection/Goodness of God. We must appreciate Mercy and treat the Merciful as Merciful. Some seek to take advantage of this (Satan) and seem to try to force God's Hand (the jews in relation to Christ). Some can conceive of mercy greater than the one they attribute to God, yet they treat God as not possessing that kind of mercy. I really think that we are in a race to see who is least evil in relation to the wholly innocent of evil, and wholly good/generous/merciful.

I hope I have not written in excess Wakas. But I like sharing things about God that I think are good to share.

Wakas

peace n11,

No you never wrote in excess, it's all good.

The primary signification of DLK is rub/squeeze/press. I doubt you will find much disagreement on this but it doesn't matter if there is disagreement or not, what matters is out of the available options what is the result of each. Put all the options on the table and let's see which stands up to scrutiny.

I put my take out there for all to inspect and bring a clear error/flaw/contradiction/etc and as you can see in this thread nothing of significance was brought. I think the most that could be said was "X could theoretically mean something else" (this is a non-point), "I misinterpreted your article" (ok, so I added a few words to clarify it), "you haven't proven X means that" (nice but irrelevant to the complete picture working or not), "there is another phrase in Quran which could mean that (unproven implication being that this means nothing else can mean the same in Quran)" etc. These are not what I (and hope you) call clear error/flaw/contradiction. They are what I commonly term "fluff".

jkhan

Peace...
I am extremely sorry, you don't respond as it deserve...
If you think ORDER OF REVELATION is not verifiable then at least you could have pointed out flaw in it... It's OK.. I won't compel you to take it... If you take... That's the end of your two salat conviction....

My inner instinct says keep away from this topic, but something is propelling me go tell the people those who would reflect... So dear Waqas.. These replies not gonna make any sense... But let people decide what is right...

So.. Whatever God guided me with, I submit to people..

My point is to those who reflect ...

If Waqas say 1778 is Salat Al Isha and if the timing for it.. That is to say..from sun set darkness of night... Ponder... Then what is the meaning of 11114 ... For what reason...
11114 is referring Two Ends of Nahar... So one of the Salat is Isha... The other one is Fajr...

Anyone tell me with common sense...
*** If God explained Isha Salat with extra verse 1778 by explaining its timing, why skipped the timing of Fajr by extra verse?
What is the time of Fajr??

So we have to trace the time of Fajr by 11114 ONLY? WHY..
IF we can trace the time of Fajr by merely the verse of 11114 then why can't we trace the timing of Isha which is the one of the TWO Ends..

What logic in it folks..?

So God thought that people will not be able trace the timing of 11114 of the timing of Isha so HE should explain with additional verse.. What a nonsensical way that is?

So how's the way of finding timing of Fajr self?

Impossible my dear fellow brothers and sisters.. That's not the way of God...

Can anyone tell what is the timing of Fajr without the verse of 11114? No Right.. Coz 11114 is very manifest... So if one salat is manifest why other end is unclear? Further 1778 and 11114 doesn't even look identical.. You know why? 11114 is "zulafan minal layl" while 1778 is "Ila ghashakal aL lail"

Are these identical my dear fellow believers ? May be for Waqas... Not for me... God doesn't need to confuse people.. And He explained so simply without ambiguity.. But you took it and conventional people took it upside down..

But for waqas "ila ghashak AL Lail" and "zulafan minal AL lail" are identical..

To say Yes.. You have to be out of your mind...

Hope it benefits for those who reflect..

So isn't 11114 enough for both the salat, if the same verse merely is enough for Fajr Salat?

Peace all my believing brothers and sisters..

Since N11 has dug this topic again, let me pose the same Question answered by anyone who take salat as two..

11114 gives two timing of salat Fajr and isha.. (thoss who claim only two salat God prescribed, do agree with this verse)
If 11114 explains completly the timing of Fajr and if 11114 is enough to understand the timing of Fajr Salat, then big Question is why 11114 is NOT enough to understand timing of Salat Isha?
Why salat isha needs to be explained by another verse 1778 so people take dulak to meridian OR sunset..what a dilemma ?
Does God think people would understand One End Of Nahar(day) easily and the other End is tough so He might remind them with another additional verse 1778?

Can anyone take my challenging question and reply with logic if you pray two times only so that I also be satisfied why you pray two times..

tutti_frutti

peace jkhan

i think the verse is enough to understand the prayer times

salat isha - evening prayer so that answers that … its when the sun sets throughout the night

salat fajr - starts when the thread of light is distinguished from the night (as per the fasting guidelines in surah 2)

just to share my understanding of salat

starting at sunset till darkness of the night and throughout the night (i think perhaps its non-stop form moment of sunset till darkness outside and then in throughout in parts of the night)
fajr (very first light of dawn a.k.a. naughtical dawn?) i personally use my own sight and pray whenever i see the thread myself or i start a bit before)
al wusta whenever the people gather which today is friday at duhr (although i think the actual wusta is after “lunch break” as i understand that there is a period where people go home and relax as per 245

there is no 1 or 2 or 3 etc prayers that last 10 mn or so i think but rather long hours spent in prostration and sujud

just to reiterate my understanding

there is evening prayer that lasts throughout the night (please also see first dozen verses of surah 73 and elsehwere in the Book we are told little did the people sleep and that from the night we prostrate)

then salat at the first light of dawn, and finally the wusta (i do once a week the wusta)

regarding the decline of the sun being noon, i disgaree if i may
in first verses of surah 73 we are told that during the day we have occupation and we are also told about the night being better for words and to stand 1/3 or 2/3 of the night … we are also told about protaration in the night in a couple of verse example 2564

that is my understanding and of course i may be wrong

peace

nimnimak_11

These are not what I (and hope you) call clear error/flaw/contradiction. They are what I commonly term "fluff".

Peace Wakas

Yes I agree it's not a contradiction. There are times where people have a go at what you say without the good intent of trying to gain a better understanding of salat timings (or salat itself), and there are times where they genuinely see something that's worth mentioning despite not wanting to have a go at you. I think good logic was of the latter because his self-restraint was incredible (clearly indicating his preference to not have a go at you).

The primary signification of DLK is rub/squeeze/press

To me, those words register something in relation to my idea of what salat itself is (though I did not know that that was the primary signification of DLK).

I've been reading Edip and Layth's reformist translation of the Quran (it's the only physical Quran I have) and I've seen some verses just be really forced through. By this I mean it seems to me that they've forced a meaning for a word despite it being at odds with the root of the word. It's almost like rushing to understand it, or forcing through in an oppressive manner. Though I do like their translation overall, they are too reformist/liberal. What I mean to say is that forcing things through is sometimes done in the name of progression or sensibility (despite the truth being such that those verses have not been made sensible to us yet for a reason).

I interpreted you as determined to reach solid/sensilbe and uncontroversial conclusions and seeking reassurance, but I also interpreted you as perhaps tired/fatigued because when a genuine controversy was highlighted, I would not describe you as being welcoming towards it.

Because I interpret you this way, from my own experiences of fatigue/overwork I will suggest to you the following Don't overwork yourself in an attempt to be sincere to God. The Bible talks about a day of rest, and death occurring where this is not done. Of course, the Quran also talks about those who transgress the Sabbath (perhaps indicating excessive rest is wrong). In an attempt to be sincere to God, I have with serious reluctance tried to really force myself to do something like religious research or philosophy, only to find myself experience what I can only describe as non-physical death. This is not an issue, but when you feel God's disapproval, it is both heartbreaking and terrifying (and I now think this was rooted in me treating God as though He was a tyrant, which is deeply unfair to God's Benevolence). The next time I reached/rubbed such a point, fear held me back. But I am oscillating between rest and work trying to raise standards in a God approved way. I don't want to transgress the Sabbath in any direction.

Consider 1729 if what I've said has registered with you (my interpretation of you could be wrong, so I don't know if what I've said will register with you or not).

jkhan

peace jkhan

i think the verse is enough to understand the prayer times

salat isha - evening prayer so that answers that … its when the sun sets throughout the night

salat fajr - starts when the thread of light is distinguished from the night (as per the fasting guidelines in surah 2)

just to share my understanding of salat

starting at sunset till darkness of the night and throughout the night (i think perhaps its non-stop form moment of sunset till darkness outside and then in throughout in parts of the night)
fajr (very first light of dawn a.k.a. naughtical dawn?) i personally use my own sight and pray whenever i see the thread myself or i start a bit before)
al wusta whenever the people gather which today is friday at duhr (although i think the actual wusta is after “lunch break” as i understand that there is a period where people go home and relax as per 245

there is no 1 or 2 or 3 etc prayers that last 10 mn or so i think but rather long hours spent in prostration and sujud

just to reiterate my understanding

there is evening prayer that lasts throughout the night (please also see first dozen verses of surah 73 and elsehwere in the Book we are told little did the people sleep and that from the night we prostrate)

then salat at the first light of dawn, and finally the wusta (i do once a week the wusta)

regarding the decline of the sun being noon, i disgaree if i may
in first verses of surah 73 we are told that during the day we have occupation and we are also told about the night being better for words and to stand 1/3 or 2/3 of the night … we are also told about protaration in the night in a couple of verse example 2564

that is my understanding and of course i may be wrong

peace

Peace Tfruti...
Be patient with my lengthy reply..
Thank you for attempting to respond to my question...
As per your understanding 11114 is two salat which are Isha and Fajr.. Well thank you.. That's what I also understand...
Then May I know what Salat is 1778? Just for your knowledge my knowledge and for verification...
You say that 1778 is not decline of sun at midday / noon..
But still at least once a week you perform Salat at Mid day(Wusta).. Based on what brother ? Is it based on chapter Jumma? Why can't it be at dawn or Fajr during haj as waqas article says.. Or even every year as traditional Eid gathering.. Why every Friday..

So it clearly indicates you have taken a salat at midday from nowhere coz 1778 is not sun decline at midday for you but still a salat timing there beyond Quran verses.. .. That you need to explain for sure..

So you didn't answer my question literally ... So directly you accepted 11114 are two salat isha and Fajr.. Timing is explained for both in one verse, and failed to explain which Salat is 1778 ... If you take by chance 1778 as isha.. Then God failed to elaborate the other salat in 11114 and its timing separate ..

Further.. I don't agree salat is long long hours... Look brother... Fajr Salat you said when the first sign of light appears at dawn.. (Ok if you are good enough to see the first light at dawn every day).. Okay.. Then how long it last? In my country max 1 hour these days.. Then sun rise.. Can we pray even after sun rise? 11114 rejects it totally..
Then isha.. If you think once the sun set and long hours at night.. I don't agree.. Not my assumption but Quranic verses tones indicates it.. Read carefully the verse 2458 ... Those children are allowed to Mingle before isha Salat.. But after isha Salat need permission.. When will this isha Salat be over for them to take permission? Literally after isha Salat and before Fajr Salat is one time. But God has pointed as two timing.. So clearly it shows there is long break between these two salat.. But if you pray long hours break between isha and Fajr won't be much..
You can thasbeeh God long hours as every individual wishes.. But Salat has timing...
In addition after isha Salat privacy.. That's really has meaning.. Even in 2187 it says the nights of fasting is allowed for you near your women... So long Salat won't make sense practically... Don't compare specific moments depends on situation.. Chapter 73 is totally targeted to a group for specific reason.

Note... Practical issues of long Salat according to Quran...

If one take isha Salat once the sun goes down it means whenever sun set the privacy also comes into effect.. So it shows children should take dinner before sunset (or alone) or else they should take permission after isha Salat.. Also after isha Salat mingling is not permited..is it? So..practically it becomes lot harder.. But if Isha Salat is after one or two hours later the sun set, this issue won't arise.. But if one takes sun set for starting of isha then unfortunately from the moment of sunset to sunrise is literally period of privacy forever. That's bizarre..
That's my understanding brother.. If it doesn't have meaning you can always negate in rationale manner..

Btw for me within Quran 1778 is none other than decline of sun at midday... That best suit within Quran . I don't see anyone who explained with utmost logic to claim sunset.. Just assumptions with dictionaries.

Dear Tuti but I am not against what you do.. I am only taking Quran to explain...

tutti_frutti

peace jkhan

i understand decline of the sun to mean sunset at least as, for example, in surah 73 we are told that we have occupation during the day, and the first verses emphasize on night to read Book and i think praying too
the verse also says "until the (darkness of?) night", so is it a continuous prayer? or is it different prayers that go throughout the night? i dont know, but i believe prayer starts at sunset

we are also told in a verse to prostrate from the night, and that little did people sleep and they forgo their beds to call upon The Lord (i am just paraphrasing my understanding of verses)...

regarding salat al wusta, i do it whenever people gather and today it is on friday at a specific time (altho the timing could perhaps have been be after the lunch break and resting)

i believe we are also told in the verse about the gathering day prayer to drop all trade and that after the prayer people go seek bounty from The God, so i take it that people have been working and will go work after the prayer, and as such the salat wusta happens during working hours

salat i believe has timings to begin, but the length is not short but rather long .. surah 73, and verses about little did people sleep, and they forgo their sides to call upon The Lord,and from the night to prostrate, .. these verses (which i am just paraphrasing) make me think that prayer is long and not short

that is my understanding, and of course, The God knows and we pray that He may please increase our knowledge

thank you very much jkhan for sharing

peace

jkhan

peace jkhan

i understand decline of the sun to mean sunset at least as, for example, in surah 73 we are told that we have occupation during the day, and the first verses emphasize on night to read Book and i think praying too
the verse also says "until the (darkness of?) night", so is it a continuous prayer? or is it different prayers that go throughout the night? i dont know, but i believe prayer starts at sunset

we are also told in a verse to prostrate from the night, and that little did people sleep and they forgo their beds to call upon The Lord (i am just paraphrasing my understanding of verses)...

regarding salat al wusta, i do it whenever people gather and today it is on friday at a specific time (altho the timing could perhaps have been be after the lunch break and resting)

i believe we are also told in the verse about the gathering day prayer to drop all trade and that after the prayer people go seek bounty from The God, so i take it that people have been working and will go work after the prayer, and as such the salat wusta happens during working hours

salat i believe has timings to begin, but the length is not short but rather long .. surah 73, and verses about little did people sleep, and they forgo their sides to call upon The Lord,and from the night to prostrate, .. these verses (which i am just paraphrasing) make me think that prayer is long and not short

that is my understanding, and of course, The God knows and we pray that He may please increase our knowledge

thank you very much jkhan for sharing

peace

Peace brother...

Thank you...
I don't get whether you answered my questions or you keep expressing your view..anyway let God guide us to straight path...

BTW.. Tuti don't complicate chapter 73... Long nights or 1/3 of nights etc is optional at any point of night.. Aren't they? It further says to get up from sleep coz one cover his blankets while sleeping.. It's not isha Fajr but extreme night.. To wake up.. It is not Salat.. Try to grasp that with deep sense... As I have explained in this forum before.. God has used word TILL in the verse 1778 .. So when in a verse TILL is used it has definite time period...
How can God say TILL in one verse and say in another verse stand whole night or portion of night or one third... total contradiction.. So it clearly defines that is not Salat but another...
Why to perform salat beyond ILA ghashak AL Lail .. If you can pray beyond ghashak Al Lail why not one can pray beyond sun rise. Why break rules defined..
Just clearly read 11114 and 1778 and ponder these two verses have defined timing.. Do within it and not before or after.. Salat is time fixed.. Would you like to pray before sun set.. If not why opposite brother..
God is perfect..

tutti_frutti

peace jkhan

thank you for your reply

no where do i see in chapter 73 does The God mention anything about the night being “optional”, so we cant say it is “optional”

“till” yes of course denotes a time .. for me its till the deepest of the night … and the night does not end at 11 pm but ends when light comes in yeah? and that would be fajr right? so the “till” i understand does goes on throughout the night with no mention of when to stop but to its deepest moments .. could be to the beginning of fajr
the words used (based on translation) is “till the darkness/deepest? of the night” … and as i think night ends with fajr then for each one to think about when they end their salat wih His permission and do whatever they can to push throughout the night maximum in prayer

i dont see anything in Quran about “little did they sleep” being about covering or blankets … so why would we assume its about covering themselves in blankets? i believe He said, and i just paraphrase my understanding of the verse, they forgoe their sides seeking their Lord

i dont look for “deep” meanings tho .. perhaps i am wrong but i try to take the Book at face value and i try not to interpet and just follow what is mentioned literally as i understand the verses (tho of course my understanding of the verses could be wrong and flawed and i could be clueless)

thank you very much jkhan for the share

peace my friend