Lost
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peace,
you wrote "During the 7th CE, one finds no historical Arabic artifact of the so-called "hijri" calendar."now you contradict admit that there are documents?
Peace,
There is no contradiction in my statements, you only misread them. Purposely or inadvertently, that's up to you.
not coincidence earliest Perf558 643 CE (mid 7th) ramadan was exactly after summer solstice.
Please check the other documents that I presented to you (the Nessana papers) and not only this one PERF558.
You cannot make a theory by simply disregarding documents that don't go your way.And as the hijri calendar was made from the original Arabic calendar, then surely some dates can coincide, it's not a surprise.
likewise you wrote "Only at the end of the 7th CE, we start to see artifacts mentioning excerpts of Qur'an"
false evident by old manuscripts; not about hijri calendar rather why post misleading info especially in this thread?
Paris, Bibliothèque nationale de France Arabe 328 (c)
radiocarbon measurement of the Birmingham fragment Islamic Arabic 1572 (a)
originally from the same codex 568-645 CE (95.4%)
https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/23/vers/1/handschrift/158Please read again what I wrote above and more carefully this time.
You take my statements out of context and claim contradictions, this is not a fair way to discuss. -
Thank you everyone for your input. Please dont start any arguments in the comment. It makes me more anxious. While I appreciate every response, please dont share anything that will make me question my faith more. If I wanted to have a debate about Quran i would have gone to any atheist site. I can't believe I am having an existential crisis at the age of 20. I didn't imagine my life like this. I never imagine I would become one of those people who would struggle with their faith. Each day passes I feel like I am getting closer to the day I would have no faith left. This has taken such a toll on my life. I have started having nightmares about it. In my dream I see myself becoming faithless and not being sad about it. I see myself feeling freed. But it fills me with dread. I dont want to be faithless and happy. I dont want to not care about my faith. I dont want to be not bothered about having no faith. I cannot read Quran now. Do you have any book recommendation that covers about the spiritual stuff and connection with God? I know sufis are very into that, any sufi book recommendation. I am not worried about religion. I am worried about my faith in God. I dont care if you recommend any book by non muslims. I just want to be trust God back. Thank you
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Please read again what I wrote above and more carefully this time.
You take my statements out of context and claim contradictions, this is not a fair way to discuss.peace,
Anoushirvan wrote...
"During the 7th CE, one finds no historical Arabic artifact of the so-called "hijri" calendar. Instead, one finds artifacts (papyri, coins, etc.) with the mention of the "Era of the Arabs". The "Hijra" is never mentioned."Only at the end of the 7th CE, we start to see artifacts mentioning excerpts of Qur'an (e.g. Dome of the Rock)."
did you not write/spread the above? is not the 7th century 601 to 700 CE?
Perf558 643 CE
https//i.postimg.cc/rwwp1mf6/Perf558.jpg
Birmingham, Cadbury Research Library (University of Birmingham) Islamic Arabic 1572
568-645, CE (95.4%)
https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/6/vers/97/handschrift/281/flip/1https//i.postimg.cc/NM5TpDbc/ch6v97-110.jpg
Do you have any book recommendation that covers about the spiritual stuff and connection with God?
Thomas Jefferson (who learned Arabic) was interesting.
https//www.monticello.org/thomas-jefferson/jefferson-s-three-greatest-achievements/religious-freedom/peace!
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Sister, you say ,quote
"I didn't imagine my life like this. I never imagine I would become one of those people who would struggle with their faith. Each day passes I feel like I am getting closer to the day I would have no faith left. This has taken such a toll on my life. I have started having nightmares about it. In my dream I see myself becoming faithless and not being sad about it. I see myself feeling freed. But it fills me with dread. I dont want to be faithless and happy. I dont want to not care about my faith. I dont want to be not bothered about having no faith. I cannot read Quran now. Do you have any book recommendation that covers about the spiritual stuff and connection with God? I know sufis are very into that, any sufi book recommendation. I am not worried about religion. I am worried about my faith in God. I dont care if you recommend any book by non muslims. I just want to be trust God back. Thank you "
I have the following questions for you,if you wish to clarify
1- Do you doubt GOD s existence? Are you looking for reassurance/evidence that GOD exist?
2- Are you worried in case there might be evidence that GOD does not exist ? Or are you apprehensive in case you loose trust in GOD? Or Qoran is not a message from GOD?
3- Are you loosing faith because you do not want to research what you doubt and issues with your faith?
4-Do you want to go on an honest search to check the information you hold about your faith and investigate its truthfulness?
5-If you see yourself being freed from your faith, do you believe you will be really free and happy?
6- If faithless means being "happy",like you say above, then surely it is a good thing for you? Or don t you want to be happy?If you really mean you are worried about your faith in GOD to the extent that it is taking your freedom and happiness then what is the issue here?
Just forget about GOD and scriptures , Is freedom and happiness not your aim in life?Or maybe there are books out there that will prove to you what you want to clarify about your faith?
Hope you solve your problem sister.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
peace,
Anoushirvan wrote...
"During the 7th CE, one finds no historical Arabic artifact of the so-called "hijri" calendar. Instead, one finds artifacts (papyri, coins, etc.) with the mention of the "Era of the Arabs". The "Hijra" is never mentioned."Only at the end of the 7th CE, we start to see artifacts mentioning excerpts of Qur'an (e.g. Dome of the Rock)."
did you not write/spread the above? is not the 7th century 601 to 700 CE?
Peace,
Perf558 does not mention "year 22 of hijra", but "year 22" only.
Other dated documents also never mention year of hijra.You implicitly assimilate this 7th CE Arabic calendar to the Islamic Hijri calendar, but you have no direct proof this 7th CE Arabic calendar was the Hijri calendar as we know it today, i.e. starting from July 622 and with lunar years.
You hold onto Perf558 since three messages now, disregarding other documents, certainly because Perf558 is the only document where one date in one system (hypothetical Hijri calendar reconstructed) coincides with a date in other system (Coptic calendar).
But other double-dated documents do not coincide so easily. You selectively disregard other double-dated documents that don't go your way.
As I said above, since Hijri calendar was built from the original Arabic calendar, it is likely that you can find some coincidences sometimes.
Another possibility that could be envisaged to explain the coincidence is that the first narratives of the Hijra were elaborated around year 642 / 643 CE (death of Umar, beginning of the reign of Uthman), so the authors of that time took the current date and made a "Hijri" calendar computed backward to July 622 CE.
This would give rise one century later to the Islamic legend that Umar started to stamp documents from July 622 / Hijra.What I meant by "Only at the end of the 7th CE, we start to see artifacts mentioning excerpts of Qur'an" in the context of my explanation is that only at the end of the 7th CE we start to see testimonies of Qur'an preaching outside Qur'an itself.
But I also tied the emergence of an Arab kingdom in 620/621 to the Qur'an preaching in reaction to it, so of course you can find Qur'an manuscripts dating back of the first half of the 7th CE.
In fact, if we couldn't find such manuscripts, it would completely invalidate my thesis.
In the middle of the 7th CE and before, there is no proof that Qur'an was so popular among Arabs, a manuscript is not sufficient for this purpose as it gives little clue how wide the audience could be.
But for the end of the 7th CE, we can find such proofs (Dome of the Rock, coins, papyrii, ...).
All things considered, the big difference between my thesis and the one usually / often advocated by Qur'an-alone people is that I say that Qur'an was not the book of doctrine of the early Arabic ruling power (Umar, and beyond up to Abd al-Malik), whereas the implicit thesis of most Qur'an-alone people is that Qur'an was the book of doctrine of the early Arabic ruling power founding an initial pure religion (Islam) that was later corrupted with hadiths, in general under the Abbasid era.
But there is no convincing proof there was a pure religion based on Qur'an-alone that was widespread among Arabs (and beyond Arabs) that was later corrupted with hadiths. On the contrary, it seems that non-negligible amount of hadiths could have a basis as early as Qur'an itself.
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You implicitly assimilate this 7th CE Arabic calendar to the Islamic Hijri calendar, but you have no direct proof this 7th CE Arabic calendar was the Hijri calendar as we know it today, i.e. starting from July 622 and with lunar years.
Peace Anoushirvan,
I react to the text in bold above (in addition to what Noon waalqalami said).
There are concrete proof Kufic Arabic graffiti from the first centuries of Islam, in Arabia as well as in the Near East, represent an inexhaustible source of information on early Muslim society.With regard to the oldest monuments of Arabic writing of the Islamic period (graffito) , there are
The graffito of al-Muthallath near Yanbuʿ in Arabia, dated 23/643, (ref. Kawatoko, 2005 51) "kataba Salma thalath wa ʿishrîn" (Salma wrote in 23). This anonymous character engraved his text to mark his passage through this place and to remind us that he was the author of the engraving. To this end, he introduces the dating directly without using the traditionally used word sana (year). The beginning of the Hegira compass was set up between 16/637 and 18/639, during the caliphate of ʿUmar (ref. de Prémare, 2002 272), which implies that the protagonist had knowledge of the calendar adjustment.
The form of the second oldest graffito, found east of al-ʿUlâ (Arabia) and dated 24/644-45 (ref. Ghabbân, 2003 337) falls into the same logic "anâ Zuhayr katabtu zaman tuwuffiya ʿUmar sanat arbaʿ wa ʿishrîn" (It is me, Zuhayr! I wrote at the time of ʿUmar's death, in the year 24). The act of writing is again emphasized, but this time after the character has briefly introduced himself. The basmala reduced to a simple bismi Llâh is above the line in total offset from the beginning of the form; it is old but seems to have been added. Epigraphic texts beginning with the isolated personal pronoun anâ attached to the name of the lapicide are very numerous but they are never preceded by the basmala formula. The 24 h. text is thus a writing with a personal and historical dimension since Zubayr doubly dates his inscription by the mention of "the time of ʿUmar" and by the dating in years. It should also be noted that the name of ʿUmar is cited in its most restricted form which in ancient epigraphy is rare.
NB sorry to dustandashes to be off topic by this answer.
God bless you all
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The graffito of al-Muthallath near Yanbuʿ in Arabia, dated 23/643, (ref. Kawatoko, 2005 51) "kataba Salma thalath wa ʿishrîn" (Salma wrote in 23). This anonymous character engraved his text to mark his passage through this place and to remind us that he was the author of the engraving. To this end, he introduces the dating directly without using the traditionally used word sana (year). The beginning of the Hegira compass was set up between 16/637 and 18/639, during the caliphate of ʿUmar (ref. de Prémare, 2002 272), which implies that the protagonist had knowledge of the calendar adjustment.
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Peace Iyyaka,
It is clear from various inscriptions and papyrii that a new Arab calendar was setup in the first half of the 7th CE.
I have never disputed that point.On the other hand, I dispute that the origin of this new calendar was an event called one or two centuries later "the Hijra of the Prophet" (the Prophet being the Qur'an messenger) in July 622.
Instead, I assert that the original event starting this new calendar was the foundation of an new Arab kingdom (an event that Qur'an alludes to, especially in Surah 2), between 620 CE and 621 CE (this is explicitly said in an chronicle of Jacob of Edessa), and that this initial calendar was luni-solar with intercalation ("nassa", that Qur'an rejects in Surah 9).
You cannot really discern between a pure lunar calendar and a luni-solar calendar with intercalation until 30 or 60 years (one or two metonic cycles) have elapsed and you start to see mismatches in dating years.
Unless you have a second calendar as a reference under the hand, which is the case when you look at double-dated documents.I would interpret your first mentioned inscription as the fact that the Arabic calendar (the one with intercalation starting in 620/621) was setup around 642 or 643.
Btw, the off-topic on the calendar started because I initially disputed that Qur'an was "revealed" (or written) to advocate belief in God alone to pagans.
Instead I asserted that it was written to reject the conditions this new Arab kingdom was founded, and this rejection was the reason of the "disturbing tone" against "disbelievers".
And among various proofs of this, there was that "nassa" / intercalation continued to be performed until the 8th CE, as if the ruling power didn't seem to be concerned by Surah 9.That's it.
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Thank you everyone for your input. Please dont start any arguments in the comment. It makes me more anxious. While I appreciate every response, please dont share anything that will make me question my faith more. If I wanted to have a debate about Quran i would have gone to any atheist site. I can't believe I am having an existential crisis at the age of 20. I didn't imagine my life like this. I never imagine I would become one of those people who would struggle with their faith. Each day passes I feel like I am getting closer to the day I would have no faith left. This has taken such a toll on my life. I have started having nightmares about it. In my dream I see myself becoming faithless and not being sad about it. I see myself feeling freed. But it fills me with dread. I dont want to be faithless and happy. I dont want to not care about my faith. I dont want to be not bothered about having no faith. I cannot read Quran now. Do you have any book recommendation that covers about the spiritual stuff and connection with God? I know sufis are very into that, any sufi book recommendation. I am not worried about religion. I am worried about my faith in God. I dont care if you recommend any book by non muslims. I just want to be trust God back. Thank you
Peace sister
You say you are worried about your faith in God. So I will focus on this.
So I will try to show you how contradictory it is to reject the existence of God. Consider the following
How can an imperfect being, have any idea of what a perfect being is independently of a perfect being? A perfect being can create lesser beings (like us) but an imperfect being cannot create God (a perfect being). So if God did not give us the idea of God, then who did? And how could they have done this without God giving them the idea? Without God, where would the idea of God come from? Again, a perfect being can create lesser beings (like us, or Zeus, or Santa, or a son I might have in the future). But an imperfect being cannot create God. Hence why it is contradictory to say "we know what God (or a perfect being) is, but God does not exist."
I studied philosophy at university, and to my knowledge, rejecting the existence of God, is like rejecting the three-sidedness of a triangle. I have debated (an am still debating) regarding this proof here
https//onlinephilosophyclub.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=17304
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Salam dustandashes,
How do I start? How do I convince myself to keep my faith alive? How do I stop myself from destroying the little faith I have left? In all my life, I never imagined I would end up in this position. A year ago, I was a happy muslim. I had no problem with wearing hijab, had no problem with being seen as an inferior gender, had no problem with the amount of restrictions that were being imposed by salafist. I dedicated myself to worshipping Allah swt and loving Prophet Mohammad. Then one cursed day I came across a Quranist. He was arguing with traditional muslims, I argued with him, he came up with points that I wasn't able to refute.
Would you please share the points brought by him that you were not able to refute?
For weeks I was plagued by his arguments and then I came across this forum. Lurked here for a long period then decided I am going to become Quran centric. I loved the posts here. I loved how people seemed so rational. I loved how they encouraged questioning. They told me questioning is a part of faith. That God wants us to question it. What a fool I was, I trusted them. I listened to them. I started questioning. First it started with hadiths. Then it was Quran. And now it's God. This reasoning and questioning destroyed me. It destroyed my faith. Now I am not the part of Islam anymore. A book that is supposed to be the divinely inspired words of Gods shouldn't have so many scientific inaccuracies. This bothered me so I became a muatazila. To ease my mind I tried to convince myself that Quran has not been preserved. That's why there are so many inaccuracies.
Not sure which verses you consider as scientific inaccuracies, but from my experience studying Quran, I found Quran is very precise.
Then came the fact that Quran is filled with so much hatred. But this time I couldn't come up with any excuse. Why does God had disbelievers so much ? Why why why?
There is no hatred here ...it is as plain as, we are rewarded according to our deeds. No one is wronged.
And be aware of a Day when you will be returned to God, then every soul will be paid what it has earned, and they will not be wronged.
How is it logical that no one has seen God, no one has talked to God except the alleged prophets, no one has heard him yet God wants to put all of these people in permanent hell for not worshipping him. Why is he so hateful. Every religious person claims God is merciful and loving, yet he is so biased and arrogant that he will only admit those people in paradise who worshipped him.
If We wish, We could send down for them from the heavens a sign, to which they would bend their necks in humility.
And those who do not know said “If only God would speak to us, or a sign would come to us.” It is the same thing that the people before them have said, their hearts are so similar! We have clarified the signs for a people who comprehend.
On top of that, he lets people suffer. He is the provider yet people are dying of hunger. He is the protector yet so many people are being oppressed and no one is able to help them. How does one reconcile with this. I dont know what to do with my life. My whole life changed in year. I went from happy woman to a depressed one. My life is completely shattered. I feel so numb. So empty. I am trying to desperately cling to my faith. I am trying so hard. Please someone help me. I dont know what to do. I am on the verge of becoming a deist+nihilist . I believe there's God. I believe there's a creator. But now I also believe that this world is meaningless. That we will cease to exist when we die. This has made me so depressed. I have been crying myself to sleep. When I worshipped God, I believed in hereafter. death didn't scare me. I was going to be united with my rab and Prophet Mohammad. I was going to be united with my family. It was going to be eterenal. I was happy. Satisfied. Now I have become suicidal. The fact that this life is meaningless and we would be lost forever once we die has made me so empty. I dont want to die. The idea fills me with so much dread. It's the only thing I think about 24/7. When I am happy the sudden realisation hits me that this is temporary and I then I am again filled with so much sadness. I dont want to die but this void inside me, this feeling of emptiness is intolerable. Death is better than feeling like this. I dont know why am I here. Maybe this is my last ditch effort to save my faith. Please help me. I dont know what's wrong with me. Everyday I wake and try to feel the presence of God, I dont feel anything. Please please please help me. I dont want to lose my faith. I try to listen to Quran in arabic but I feel nothing. I cannot read Qur'an's translation because it would take me more away from my faith because it's filled so much hate. Help me please. At this point i am rambling. But please anything. Any spiritual book. Any writer. Anything. I cannot live like this. This life depresses me. Pray for me. Please pray for me.
And if My servants ask you about Me, I am near answering the calls of those who call to Me. So let them respond to Me and believe in Me that they may be guided.
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Thank you everyone for your input. Please dont start any arguments in the comment. It makes me more anxious. While I appreciate every response, please dont share anything that will make me question my faith more. If I wanted to have a debate about Quran i would have gone to any atheist site.
When atheists talk about Quran, it is as described in 37
It is He who has sent down to you the Book; in it are verses precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation, they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation. And no one knows its interpretation except Allah. But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.
A good website from former atheist
https//www.answeringislamicskeptics.com/why-is-the-quran-vague.html
I can't believe I am having an existential crisis at the age of 20. I didn't imagine my life like this. I never imagine I would become one of those people who would struggle with their faith. Each day passes I feel like I am getting closer to the day I would have no faith left. This has taken such a toll on my life. I have started having nightmares about it. In my dream I see myself becoming faithless and not being sad about it. I see myself feeling freed. But it fills me with dread. I dont want to be faithless and happy. I dont want to not care about my faith. I dont want to be not bothered about having no faith. I cannot read Quran now. Do you have any book recommendation that covers about the spiritual stuff and connection with God? I know sufis are very into that, any sufi book recommendation. I am not worried about religion. I am worried about my faith in God. I dont care if you recommend any book by non muslims. I just want to be trust God back. Thank you
Contrary to what majority believe ...Quran is actually "anti religion".
“And this is your nation, one nation, and I am your Lord so be aware.”
But the affair was disputed between them into segments. Every group happy with what it had.
So leave them in their error until a time.So set your face to the system of monotheism. It is the inclination that God has nurtured the people on. There is no changing in the creation of God. Such is the pure system, but most of the people do not know.
Turn to Him, and be aware of Him, and hold the Connection, and do not be of the polytheists.
From those who have divided their system and become "religion", each group is happy with what it has.And those who are divided into "religion" is polytheist in the sight of God.
