Almost all pagans are pantheists

Abdun_Nur

After accepting the Qur'an, it is not evidence, you accepting something does not, to any other soul, make it evidence, I see reasoning is beyond you, peace.

Emre_1974tr

No, you are completely wrong.

You are not using your mind, you are mechanically repeating your dogma.

The Qur'an asks you to believe in true knowledge based entirely on proof. and forbids things that are not based on proof, that is, superstitions. Therefore, we are obliged to believe in the truth. And that is why we are obliged to stay away from superstitions.

The authenticity and preservation of the Qur'an is based on word-for-word proof. Therefore, all the information given by the Qur'an is based on proof. Because it is the word of God.

And we have not got souls.

reel

No, the book is always a claim, if you have evidence of a god provide it, but even with evidence it remains a claim not evidence, which is the reason it states every verse must be proven before it is accepted.

Try following the book. That's the way to evidence even for existence of God.

we are a single fractal consciousness

Reference? I'm just curious about things like that.

Abdun_Nur

The evidence and reasoning of that evidence, of this shared reality, demonstrates the fractal structure, with a shared perceptual reality of a single consciousness

https//earthcoinage.com/about-us/

Any book of religion is only a claim, it can be nothing else, it does not change if you believe it is more, it still remains a book of claims, which require proving before anyone, including anyone delusional enough to take a claim without determine it is true, as true.

good_logic

Abdun Nur.

You say Qoran is words/claims and your link is also words/claims. It is subject to people s scrutiny and understanding.
The difference I see is that yours is humanmade with clear evidence it is from you.
Who s words /claims are Qoran? What evidence do you have for it?

One puts the words into scrutiny to see if it is the truth or falsehood or put on hold if they do not know yet..
Would you say your evidence for your words is strong and that of Qoran is not? Then this also needs evidence.

This is what I am reading from this conversation/thread.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Abdun_Nur

It is for you to find the evidence to support or refute each verse of any text, a medical claim, a scientific claim, a religious claim or a political claim, it is accepting blindly that is an act of utter stupidity, I may present the logic and evidence of my claim, it is up to the reader to determine if that stands up to scrutiny, using reason and evidence to support or refute, this is stated in the Qur'an itself, prove yourself every verse before it is accepted as true.

good_logic

Have you done that with Qoran verses?

I am interested to know your findings about the book.

Of course I agree with you that it is up to me to check everything for myself. However how can we check for each other?
Or are you saying we should all agree the same? Or do you mean if it does not match with your reasoning it is wrong?

If you are saying it is up to me to convince you with my evidence, then I can only prove to you that I am not convinced by your evidence because we differ in the understanding of GOD.
Anarchy to me cannot exist if GOD exists.
By definition ,GOD creates,owns and rules. Everything belongs to GOD. We all do ,all the created. Without GOD nothing can exist.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Abdun_Nur

It is no one else's job to form YOUR beliefs, but if you care about your soul you should care more than life itself about YOUR beliefs, holding a false belief is very damaging to YOUR perception, as we are a single consciousness fractally structured, your failure effects me as it does every expression of the fractal form of the single consciousness, so for the growth of my own fractal expression of consciousness aiding all expressions to develop reasoned beliefs aids myself.

The Qur'an in its present translations is for the most part worthless, so corrupted through translation it is very difficult to gain much, except basic concepts, these basic concepts are comprehensively ignored by those calling themselves Muslim.

Your investment in the Ba'alist God concept is common, Ba'alim presently dominates humanity through hierarchy, the five forms of riba and imposed monopolies, trying to over come the god delusion for most will be an impossible achievemnet, as they are blindly invested in that Ba'alist structure of perception, the sovereigns, authority, heiarchical mafias, psychopathic monopolies form their perceptual reality, and they worship it all,and their ignorance is worn as a badge of honour.

amin

Almost all pagans are pantheists.

Pagans who worship idols or humans are aware that the things they worship are not gods. But in their perverted pantheistic philosophy, they see what they worship as a reflection, a manifestation, a part of God. Thus, they fall into the trap of the devil. They think they are monotheists, but they are actually polytheists.

Yes, but whats the meaning of worship? you cant praise a thing, without understanding the greatness of it, how many of present day muslims understood the truth behind masjid al haram, if its considered a physical sacred place, then there's no difference between the paganic worship and muslim worship? But Quran has explained it well i think, by saying east and west doesnt matter.

I don't find fault in many of the rituals/rules people have, if it all serves some purpose in the name of Goodness, the evilness comes when there suppression of rights, falsehood, cheating and suffering etc steps in, in other words we can say, those not supported by the grand superior force.

reel

The evidence and reasoning of that evidence, of this shared reality, demonstrates the fractal structure, with a shared perceptual reality of a single consciousness

https//earthcoinage.com/about-us/

Any book of religion is only a claim, it can be nothing else, it does not change if you believe it is more, it still remains a book of claims, which require proving before anyone, including anyone delusional enough to take a claim without determine it is true, as true.

I do agree with most of what you have on that page. Still a bit new to the topic. But the exploration was triggered by Quran application as is. So I dont see anything wrong in testing God's claims for validity. This also helps recover original interpretations.

good_logic

So what are the original interpretations?

One should try to restore these if they are sure and should take the task of interpreting the whole text for the benefit of people.
Otherwise how can they be taken seriously?
Until the task is done to show to the world, it remains as claims and the status quo carries on.

GOD bless.
Peace.

Abdun_Nur

Even if the text were translated as its original meaning, it would still be a book of claims, that would never change.

Badar Kanwar has been working on determining the meanings of Arabic pre-Qur'an, to determine the original message of the text, communicate with him to consider the results of that effort.

Few peole are capable of accepting truths, if the original message of the Qur'an conflicts with their religous faiths it would be denied, the reality of that is self professed Muslims are fantasists not Muslims..

reel

So what are the original interpretations?

One should try to restore these if they are sure and should take the task of interpreting the whole text for the benefit of people.
Otherwise how can they be taken seriously?

Whole text doesn't need that. Its a gem of a book but very misunderstood. Mullahs dont hide they changed certain word meanings and even the philosophy.

Even if the text were translated as its original meaning, it would still be a book of claims, that would never change.

Unless it greatly changes life. That's the key. Act is the fact.

Badar Kanwar has been working on determining the meanings of Arabic pre-Qur'an, to determine the original message of the text, communicate with him to consider the results of that effort.

I now consider that method not enough.

good_logic

For example Qoran claims it is the words of the Lord of the universe/-The Creator-. Have you checked this claim? Is this true or false?

Another example is that Qoran claims we go back for judgement to the Lord of the universe. Is this true or false? How? Why?...

Or if it still remains only claims after interpretation then what use is it?

This means disregard it if it does not change what you make of it now.
Therefore I cannot continue discussing it with you. It will be pointless.

This leaves me where I started . Disagreeing with you on Anarchy and the existence,omnipotence and kingdom of GOD.-i.e GOD as a unique and separate entity,the origin of everything that exist.
GOD bless you.
Peace..

Abdun_Nur

Peace G.L,

all books of religion are always, no matter what is claimed within them, or by anyone about them, always without exception books of claims, and these claims must always be proven before they are accepted.

If the Qur'an is "the word of the lord of the universe/creator (Ba'al)", then show evidence firstly this Ba'al exists in someway, and that if this entity exists the claims of the religious book are made directly by them?

Why do I say "Ba'al", is because you are claiming it indirectly,

Ba'al means "owner", you inherently can only own that which you yourself create, if your claimed entity created the universe (which is in reality perceptual so would not be a valid claim) they are Owner "Ba-'al", all else is shared. To own everything is then to claim riba over it, an interest, This is the basis of Ba'alism, and the foundation of the five forms of riba.

"Judgement to the Lord of the universe", by judgement I'm guessing you mean criticism or censure, as the estimate by Ba'al of the ultimate worthiness or unworthiness of the individual in this life or the next?

If you consider every soul a slave, then they are owned, and as property they may be judged according to the dictates of their master, this is rhe Ba'alist model, the "owner" and the "owned"., this is purely from a point of view of reason, again to get to the point of reason you'd firstly have to prove the claim, proof of the Ba'alist entity, proof you are the property of that entity, proof you are fully informed of the dictates and bound to the dictates of that entity?

The use of claims is to ask the question, if you do not ask the question you would never investigate the answers that may aid you, the question is the claim, a claim may have a conclusion, but that is also a part of the claim, and all the aspects of the claim must be proven, then reason applied to that proof to determine the fullness of the claim.

Religious claim must be considered far more seriously than any other type of claim, as they are the most damaging if they are accepted blindly as wrong beliefs.

good_logic

Abdun Nur.
So your source of knowledge is not claims?
And your reasoning is solid?
The fact that all of us learn since childhood means we do not have full knowledge. We all get our knowledge from "others" and since books make up the majority of our sources, we must all learn from "claims" according to your reasoning.
However you say your reasoning has evidence. So where is your source /book ...?

If you reflect ,you will see the flaw in your reasoning.

Or do you expect people to reason the same as you?

Just because you think you worked it out by your reasoning does not mean it is evidence for others.
Evidence is supposed to leave no doubt.
Or may be the millions that do not agree with you are ignoring your evidence?
True evidence cancels all arguments like 2+2= 4

Or is your reasoning blinding your intellect?
Or may be mine and others intellect?

GOD bless you.
Peace.

Abdun_Nur

It's quite a simple concept, you appear to be struggling, what is stated is a claim, it matters not the source, the claim could be axiomatic as evidence abounds in its support, or it could require investigation before it could be accepted to alter your beliefs, it's rare that people are willing to face the truth, most will do almost anything to remain stagnant in their beliefs, this state of mind is called cognative dissonance.

You could ask questions if you are in debate to help determine a claim through source referencing, or a flow of reasoning, or you can research the claim independently.

But to accept anything that would effect your perceptions and beliefs fundamentally, without evidence, means you cannot reason, which is the very reason a religious god based mindset is so stagnant.,

Baseless beliefs stagnante consciousness,, jahannam means a stagnant state or environment, and this state can negatively effect all beliefs as a cascade of falsehood, you cannot build on a false foundation.

Evidence is not a book, it is connected proofs, things examined from various points of view that point to the same conclusion.

For example what is the evidence a entity exists that you reference as a god? This is a fundamental belief that effects all other beliefs, so it stagnates, you cannot build on a false foundation, no evidence exists, and the cognative dissonance clings to "blind faith".

What I believe is not relavant to this process, belief is a individual responsibility, I apply the method of examining evidence from as many points of view as possible to draw a conclusion, it may be possible my conclusion could be altered in the future if new evidence is discovered adjusting the conclusion, and a reasoning soul would be open to adjusting a conclusion with new evidence.

The govern mental mafia imposes scholing to prevent the development of the skill of reasoning, that was the objective at the outset of the imposed schooling system, it rewards conformists and punishes nonconformist thinking.

So before anyone could begin to form proven truth as their foundations of belief, they'd need to develop the skill to reason to truth, if reason was the basis of education there would not be a single religion on earth, not a single mafia, govern mental, medical, financial, or any other form, all these forms of mental slavery are built on wrong beliefs.

good_logic

Put honestly ,I think we are both struggling..

I admit I struggle with me. Who am I , where do I come from and why?
You must be struggling with something?
I cannot accept everything you see around us originated from nothing . There must be a Creator and a purpose for the created.

My reasoning of GOD is the origin of all that exist. I struggle comprehending this supreme being with my limited mind ,brain and faculties.

You telling me I am making up GOD,does not make sense to me. It is the other way around GOD made me.

Why do I need to give you evidence for existence of GOD. Am I asking you to give me evidence for the inexistence of GOD?
Can you at least see that it works both ways?
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Jafar

The infinite creator, as name implies are infinite, has no bound, has no limit, an infinite.
As such the infinite creator encompass every-things and every-one.
That's the reason why there's only 1 in the first place, because it's boundless has no border.
How many infinity could possibly exist? only 1, not a bordered / limited one but boundless / unlimited one.

Next there are those who took the illusion of separation and there are those who embrace unity.

All atrocities are performed by those who took the illusion of separation,

I AM/We are Superior others are inferior.
I AM/We are Righteous others are sinners.
I AM/We are Saved others are condemned.
I AM/We are The Chosen others are unchosen
I AM/We are uber alles others are under us.
I AM/We are muslimin others are kafirin
I AM/We are Israelites others are Goyim
Our Book(s) are written by God other's book are written by Men.

And ultimately
I AM God others are merely my servants.

All egocentric bastards think that they're separated from others and superior compared to others.
Striving to empower others and control others, usually through FEAR.

jkhan