As'haab-il Kahf - Number and Location

[jkhan]

Salam,

in the textual context, the sign in question is that the condition of the youths will be eased (v18.16) by the fact the sun at rise and the sun at set will not touch them in the cave (v18.17), i.e. they will not be burned by sun rays while they are hidden in the cave.

Or do you want to understand what this sign means beyond mere literal meaning ?

Salam...

Thank you...

Actually I have no clue... That's why I posed this question...

I tried but in vain... I don't understand what could be the SIGN here...

So you say giving them shade was a sign literally... Everybody knows being inside a cave can possibly not touch the sunlight... Sometimes you are right... God uses in various verses.. This kind of phrase..there is sign for you in this...
But unfortunately I couldn't grasp.... God will..

Appreciate your understanding... God guide us...

[Anoushirvan]

So you say giving them shade was a sign literally... Everybody knows being inside a cave can possibly not touch the sunlight... Sometimes you are right... God uses in various verses.. This kind of phrase..there is sign for you in this...
But unfortunately I couldn't grasp.... God will..

Appreciate your understanding... God guide us...

I think I have some clue why it's there.
As I said sometimes in this forum, and also Qur'an says, one must understand how ancient scholars versed in the Scriptures understood them.

Here is how I would decipher the passage.

Sunrise symbolizes resurrection day while sunset symbolizes the end of times.
Heat, be the heath of the sun or even fever (e.g. see Matthew 8.14), symbolizes God's wrath.

So the allegory of the passage means that people having rejected the worshiping of idols will be spared from God's wrath at the end of time and at resurrection day.
This is why verse 8.17 concludes with "Whoever God guides is the guided one, and whoever He misguides, you will not find for him any ally to give direction".

[jkhan]

I think I have some clue why it's there.
As I said sometimes in this forum, and also Qur'an says, one must understand how ancient scholars versed in the Scriptures understood them.

Here is how I would decipher the passage.

Sunrise symbolizes resurrection day while sunset symbolizes the end of times.
Heat, be the heath of the sun or even fever (e.g. see Matthew 8.14), symbolizes God's wrath.

So the allegory of the passage means that people having rejected the worshiping of idols will be spared from God's wrath at the end of time and at resurrection day.
This is why verse 8.17 concludes with "Whoever God guides is the guided one, and whoever He misguides, you will not find for him any ally to give direction".

Thank you brother.....

I have many a question in this chapter... I am afraid o don't get some satisfactory answers from self or others...

Other question is 1894-98

What is that structure Dulqarnain built?...
Can anyone imagine a structure that could possibly stop one party entering another... This is in between two mountains if translations are correct... Either mountains should be so high so that they cannot enter even after the structure is built... Or the mountain is so high as well a huge range of mountains and by blocking this entry it means they have to come to these people by traveling thousands of miles...

What is you people thought..

[Anoushirvan]

Salam

Thank you brother.....

I have many a question in this chapter... I am afraid o don't get some satisfactory answers from self or others...

Surah 18 is one of the most mysterious surahs of Qur'an.

Other question is 1894-98

What is that structure Dulqarnain built?...
Can anyone imagine a structure that could possibly stop one party entering another...

This one is more complicated, but like above, it has to be understood like ancient Jewish (or sometimes Christian) scholars understood the Scriptures.

Here is how I decipher this passage.

The key expression is in verse 18.96 zubara al-hadid.

This means sheets or blocks of iron and this is the correct meaning in the literal context.
But the text would like you to hear something else by the process of double-entendre (https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_entendre).
Hadid / iron alludes to Hudud (https//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=Hdd#(18963)) which means "limits", in the sens of legal limits.
Zubara / sheets alludes to Zubur, the Scriptures.

So the story of the building of the iron wall, beyond its literal meaning, wants you to understand something about the establishment of the law by the Scriptures, which, by the way, is one of the major themes in Qur'an.

In the Pentateuch, there is already one key character linked with the establishment of the law and two mountains Moses (the mountains being Sinaï and Horeb, though possibly both are the same).

Therefore, the story of Dhul-Qarnain alludes to the story of Moses in the Pentateuch and the divine commandments he received from God (technically the story of Dhul-Qarnain is a midrash on the story of Moses and other people).

The Gog and Magog are "mufsidin" (v18.94), i.e. they spread corruption on earth like the disbelievers (see Surah 2).
Surah 2 more or less explicitly advocated for the need of a divine ethical law (the deen) in order to stop spreading corruption on earth.
Passage 18.94 to 18.98 says the same as Surah 2 but in a kind of allegorical way.

The molten copper (qitr) poured onto the sheets of iron is likely alluding to the passage of the Pentateuch Numbers 21.07-09.

Nb 21.04-05 Then they set out from Mount Hor along the route to the Red Sea, in order to bypass the land of Edom. But the people grew impatient on the journey 5and spoke against God and against Moses “Why have you led us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? There is no bread or water, and we detest this wretched food!”

Lack of bread and water symbolizes lack of divine Law. Or, in the context, oblivion of the divine commandments.

Nb 21.06-09 So the LORD sent venomous snakes among the people, and many of the Israelites were bitten and died. 7Then the people came to Moses and said, “We have sinned by speaking against the LORD and against you. Intercede with the LORD so He will take the snakes away from us.” So Moses interceded for the people. Then the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent and mount it on a pole. When anyone who is bitten looks at it, he will live.” So Moses made a bronze snake and mounted it on a pole. If anyone who was bitten looked at the bronze snake, he would live.

Here the bronze snake acts as a reminder of the divine commandments (see the Book of Wisdom 16.05-06).

So in Qur'an verse 18.96, qitr likely means that the divine law must be constantly remembered so as to prevent spreading corruption.
This is how the Gog and Magog cannot cross the wall.

But at the end of times, there is no law anymore, the wall has been leveled and corruption resumes spreading on earth until everyone returns to God.

[jkhan]

Salam

Surah 18 is one of the most mysterious surahs of Qur'an.

This one is more complicated, but like above, it has to be understood like ancient Jewish (or sometimes Christian) scholars understood the Scriptures.

Here is how I decipher this passage.

The key expression is in verse 18.96 zubara al-hadid.

This means sheets or blocks of iron and this is the correct meaning in the literal context.
But the text would like you to hear something else by the process of double-entendre (https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_entendre).
Hadid / iron alludes to Hudud (https//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=Hdd#(18963)) which means "limits", in the sens of legal limits.
Zubara / sheets alludes to Zubur, the Scriptures.

So the story of the building of the iron wall, beyond its literal meaning, wants you to understand something about the establishment of the law by the Scriptures, which, by the way, is one of the major themes in Qur'an.

In the Pentateuch, there is already one key character linked with the establishment of the law and two mountains Moses (the mountains being Sinaï and Horeb, though possibly both are the same).

Therefore, the story of Dhul-Qarnain alludes to the story of Moses in the Pentateuch and the divine commandments he received from God (technically the story of Dhul-Qarnain is a midrash on the story of Moses and other people).

The Gog and Magog are "mufsidin" (v18.94), i.e. they spread corruption on earth like the disbelievers (see Surah 2).
Surah 2 more or less explicitly advocated for the need of a divine ethical law (the deen) in order to stop spreading corruption on earth.
Passage 18.94 to 18.98 says the same as Surah 2 but in a kind of allegorical way.

The molten copper (qitr) poured onto the sheets of iron is likely alluding to the passage of the Pentateuch Numbers 21.07-09.

Nb 21.04-05 Then they set out from Mount Hor along the route to the Red Sea, in order to bypass the land of Edom. But the people grew impatient on the journey 5and spoke against God and against Moses “Why have you led us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? There is no bread or water, and we detest this wretched food!”

Lack of bread and water symbolizes lack of divine Law. Or, in the context, oblivion of the divine commandments.

Nb 21.06-09 So the LORD sent venomous snakes among the people, and many of the Israelites were bitten and died. 7Then the people came to Moses and said, “We have sinned by speaking against the LORD and against you. Intercede with the LORD so He will take the snakes away from us.” So Moses interceded for the people. Then the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent and mount it on a pole. When anyone who is bitten looks at it, he will live.” So Moses made a bronze snake and mounted it on a pole. If anyone who was bitten looked at the bronze snake, he would live.

Here the bronze snake acts as a reminder of the divine commandments (see the Book of Wisdom 16.05-06).

So in Qur'an verse 18.96, qitr likely means that the divine law must be constantly remembered so as to prevent spreading corruption.
This is how the Gog and Magog cannot cross the wall.

But at the end of times, there is no law anymore, the wall has been leveled and corruption resumes spreading on earth until everyone returns to God.

Peace..
That's interesting way thinking...
But I prefer the literal meaning of these verses...

Point to ponder...
1... After building iron and copper mixed barrier those who were burden on the other cannot enter by any means...
2.. So.. Mountains should be so high to climb...
3.... Alternative way is far too to travel...
4... Mountain is not only high but also huge and chain of mountains.. Range of mountains for example himalaya...
5.... Only one entry was there to pass through... And that was blocked by Dulqarnain...
6.... When the day of doom to fall this will be flattened... In my personal opinion, it is needless to say if the structure he built was a small one... And it could only be a massive barrier... All mountains will become powder and so does the structure....
7..... And on that day these people will surge like waves... It seems like the same quality of those corrupted people are living Upto now... And they seem to be attacking others on that day... Perhaps..

Can anyone imagine a place like this... My imaginary place is China and India... Entire nation is chained by this huge range of Himalayas... Either corrupted one were Indians OR Chinese... They will surge like waves....
To all have may be some imagination on this verse or research or evidence... Like to hear...

It is amazing such a huge structure built thousands of years back not yet discovered where they are...

I can't quite agree with metaphorical explanation... Coz it looks so literal... Coz dhulkarnain requested to provide strength from those people. By saying bring me.. Story is clear... But hard to grasp in correct way...

[Anoushirvan]

It is amazing such a huge structure built thousands of years back not yet discovered where they are...

I can't quite agree with metaphorical explanation... Coz it looks so literal... Coz dhulkarnain requested to provide strength from those people. By saying bring me.. Story is clear... But hard to grasp in correct way...

You have satellite images of the whole Earth nowadays with a few meter resolution, nothing is stopping you from looking for this wall, even in the Himalaya.

In my opinion, on a purely literal basis, this story is totally incredible.

[jkhan]

You have satellite images of the whole Earth nowadays with a few meter resolution, nothing is stopping you from looking for this wall, even in the Himalaya.

In my opinion, on a purely literal basis, this story is totally incredible.

Yes what you say in your first para is reasonable.... Even everywhere people do live so it is hard to hide such a construction... But you and me and everyone knows that there many a history hidden in this very earth which is not yet unearthed...

But your second paragraph I am not sure how far that is logical... Unless you meant by 'incredible' something else...

But what I say is literal meaning is more perfect wuth the flow of verses. ... We don't find the structure to date is somethung else. But verses are more literal.

BTW some claim it is Georgia.. So many YouTube videos... All these assumptions... In fact I don't try at this point to locate it but my effort is to understand how the structure wpuld have built and yet yajuj and majuj people could not attack... At least considerable number of days or months woukd have taken to build it so the yajuj and majuj didn't seem to have stopped it from building... Further, Dulqarnain was powerful and he avoided from punishing them instead of building a barrier.. So many to consider..

I appreciate your understanding... Anything is possible... Keep researching brother...

[tlihawa]

Salamun alaykum,
Regarding the sign, let me put these verses together, so maybe you can build your own understanding

189 Have you perceived that the dwellers of the cave and RAQIMI were of Our signs, a wonder?

1817 And you see the sun when it rises, it visits their cave from the right, and when it sets, it touches them from the left, while they are in an enclosure from it. That is from the signs of God. Whoever God guides is the guided one, and whoever He misguides, you will not find for him any ally to give direction.

So there are two things, dwellers of the cave and the Al Raqimi.

Here is the meaning of the Al Raqimi from the dictionary,

Ra-Qaf-Miim = to write, stripe, brand. raqim - inscription, writing. marqum - written one.

Furthermore,
https//i.ibb.co/4Zks8xB/raqimi.png

So the Raqimi is inscription, books, manuscripts.

Then I looked for cave that holds the old manuscripts. And here is what I found,

Qumran Cave

https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls

I believe in the books that were found, and studied some of them and thanked Allah for the sign given.

Peace

[Anoushirvan]

But your second paragraph I am not sure how far that is logical... Unless you meant by 'incredible' something else...

Salam,

incredible in the sense that it is not believable in its literal meaning, at least for me.

But what I say is literal meaning is more perfect wuth the flow of verses. ... We don't find the structure to date is somethung else. But verses are more literal.

Of course, in its literal meaning, the flow of verses makes a consistent story, it was made for.

It was made for so that the teaching of the allegorical meaning, which is the true target of this story, is more easily remembered.
The allegorical meaning doesn't have to flow the same way than the literal meaning.

BTW some claim it is Georgia.. So many YouTube videos... All these assumptions... In fact I don't try at this point to locate it but my effort is to understand how the structure wpuld have built and yet yajuj and majuj people could not attack... At least considerable number of days or months woukd have taken to build it so the yajuj and majuj didn't seem to have stopped it from building... Further, Dulqarnain was powerful and he avoided from punishing them instead of building a barrier.. So many to consider..

I appreciate your understanding... Anything is possible... Keep researching brother...

In fact, the literal meaning raises far more questions than the allegorical meaning.
If there is an allegorical meaning to be sought, then there is nothing in the literal meaning to seek for, beyond what is written.

But if there is no allegorical meaning to be sought, then the literal meaning from the verses says too little and raises so many questions.

First you would have to decide if this barrier is still there or if it has been destroyed.
If it has been destroyed, then by verses 18.98 and following, we are supposed to be at the end of times and in the Day of Judgment.
Then why didn't we notice anything ?

If the barrier is still there, then which kind of ferocious beings (Gog and Magog) are being locked in so that they cannot spread corruption on earth ?
Could the Gog and Magog be Chinese and Indians ? Doesn't make sense, neither of them are locked in behind a wall.

How do they feed themselves if they are locked in ? Since of two or three millennia they would have starved to death.

Those Gog and Magog do not have any technology to melt the iron or the copper. In our times, we have nuclear weapons and technologies able to reduce to dust practically anything.
So why should we fear those Gog and Magog whose technology is prior to the Copper Age and Iron Age, i.e. more than 4000 years ago ?

If the barrier is as big as a mountain, then the quantity of iron needed to build it would certainly locally deviate the magnetic field of the Earth.
Not only would it be detectable by our modern, very sensitive instruments, but it would also make a perfect ore for the industry.
On the other hand, it is not clear that the quantity of iron available on Earth, at least two or three millennia ago, would be sufficient to build such a structure.

Etc, etc.

So you see, the literal meaning raises so many questions that it certainly could not have been the intended targeted meaning in the first place of those verses and of this story.

[jkhan]

Salam,

incredible in the sense that it is not believable in its literal meaning, at least for me.

Of course, in its literal meaning, the flow of verses makes a consistent story, it was made for.

It was made for so that the teaching of the allegorical meaning, which is the true target of this story, is more easily remembered.
The allegorical meaning doesn't have to flow the same way than the literal meaning.

In fact, the literal meaning raises far more questions than the allegorical meaning.
If there is an allegorical meaning to be sought, then there is nothing in the literal meaning to seek for, beyond what is written.

But if there is no allegorical meaning to be sought, then the literal meaning from the verses says too little and raises so many questions.

First you would have to decide if this barrier is still there or if it has been destroyed.
If it has been destroyed, then by verses 18.98 and following, we are supposed to be at the end of times and in the Day of Judgment.
Then why didn't we notice anything ?

If the barrier is still there, then which kind of ferocious beings (Gog and Magog) are being locked in so that they cannot spread corruption on earth ?
Could the Gog and Magog be Chinese and Indians ? Doesn't make sense, neither of them are locked in behind a wall.

How do they feed themselves if they are locked in ? Since of two or three millennia they would have starved to death.

Those Gog and Magog do not have any technology to melt the iron or the copper. In our times, we have nuclear weapons and technologies able to reduce to dust practically anything.
So why should we fear those Gog and Magog whose technology is prior to the Copper Age and Iron Age, i.e. more than 4000 years ago ?

If the barrier is as big as a mountain, then the quantity of iron needed to build it would certainly locally deviate the magnetic field of the Earth.
Not only would it be detectable by our modern, very sensitive instruments, but it would also make a perfect ore for the industry.
On the other hand, it is not clear that the quantity of iron available on Earth, at least two or three millennia ago, would be sufficient to build such a structure.

Etc, etc.

So you see, the literal meaning raises so many questions that it certainly could not have been the intended targeted meaning in the first place of those verses and of this story.

Peace...

Thank you...
Yes.. I can see that you have applied lots of thoughts to the literal meaning... And it seems you have discarded the literal meaning based on that... Reasonable...
But for me.. Literal meaning suits much... Just coz we are unable to perceive is not the resort for allegorical meaning..
Further it's not said as allegory..

If allegoric meaning.. Then what is fire? What they were asked to bring? What did Dulqarnain mean by asking them to give their manpower? Why they said we will pay you for building a barrier? They knew what to do but they couldn't do it on their own.. It was like they didn't know how to do it so that it last...

However God will He would guid us...

One thing you should note that... I have not understood the story as per some of your questions.. Such where yajuj and majuj are locked.. That's silly.. I know some people do believe they are not human.. Nonesence... For me they are human and powerful and keep corrupting these... They blocked their entrance.. That's all.. After that they were living... Since the entry point is hampered they would have given up... But these people generation after generation they are same.. Their quality is same.. Like the yajuj and majuj of Dulqarnain time they are same even now.. If they have an opportunity they would corrupt and attack.. It doesn't need as the same way of ancestors but needless to say... It seems like they are well versed to conspire corruption... It didn't look like yajuj and majuj killed the other party but they made corruption... I don't want to pinpoint china but, we don't really know what china is Upto and they seem one of those powerful nations who is behind many a corruption in this earth...
Now the relation between the barrier and those two groups may not matter.. It mattered to that society who badly needed a separation from them.. So that they could save their community and their children and women from these corruptors which seemed going out of the hands of the rulers..

RE read the verses keeping away allegorical meaning perhaps you would get a good understanding... Can you give me a big story in Quran which is totally allegorical? It depends how you perceived the story.

[Anoushirvan]

Peace...

Thank you...
Yes.. I can see that you have applied lots of thoughts to the literal meaning... And it seems you have discarded the literal meaning based on that... Reasonable...
But for me.. Literal meaning suits much... Just coz we are unable to perceive is not the resort for allegorical meaning..

Salam,

About literal meaning, I can tell you this personal story.

It was narrated once by my father twenty years ago when he was still alive.

He was an Afghan. In his youth, in the 40s or 50s, his own father and grand-father were members of a "tariqa" as a lot of Afghan men in the past did.

This tariqa was led by a kind of wandering dervish whose name was something like "Baba Mir Farqir" or "Baba Mir Fakhir", I don't know exactly (if someone heard of this guy too, I would be interested to know).
And former king of Afghanistan, Zaher Shah, was also a member of this tariqa. Or at least, he took part to some of the meetings.

One day, Baba Mir Fakhir told them a strange prophecy. And it seems Zaher Shah was there too, though I'm not sure how it influenced his policy in Afghanistan.

Remember we were in the 40s or the 50s.
Baba Mir Fakhir said several countries would try to get hold of Afghanistan but would fail one after another.
But after that, the snow of a mountain in Afghanistan would melt, and a people that were sleeping since centuries under the snow would wake up and then go to get hold of Earth. Those people were the Yajuj and Majuj.

Provided that the prophecy of Baba Mir Fakhir was correctly reported to me, the recent events in Afghanistan and also the threatening Global Warming would hint that this prophecy is being at least partially fulfilled.

And if the prophecy is actually true, then...

My father and some other relatives were literally haunted this prophecy (and other like that) and they really thought it would happen during their lifetime.

As far as I am concerned, when the US started to invade Afghanistan twenty years ago, I collected as many books on Alexander the Great as I could (since it was thought that Dhul Qarnain was actually Alexander the Great) and in particular Alexander Romance (https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Romance) where the story of Alexander locking in the Gog and Magog is also narrated, hopping to understand better when this could happen.

But this was before my understanding of Qur'an radically changed four years ago, so now I believe this prophecy was in fact only a projection into their minds of the geopolitical rivalry between Soviet Union and US.

Further it's not said as allegory..

It's hardly said so in fact.
Because people at that time had a somewhat different reasoning.

Djalal-al-Din Rumi in his Mathnavi explains it neatly he says that in a grammar lesson, when the teacher says "Peter has beaten Jack" (wanting to explain e.g. past time), it is not correct to ask questions like why did Peter hit Jack, what did Jack do to Peter, etc ?
(Rumi used different names than Peter and Jack that I don't remember but it doesn't change the point).

Because this is not the point.

And the Mathnavi is full of metaphorical stories.
But Rumi never says they are metaphorical. Instead, he explains the point above about grammar.
It is up to the reader to understand the teaching behind his stories.

For example, when he narrates stories of Mahmud Ghaznawi and Ayaz, maybe prince Mahmud and his slave Ayaz really literally did this and that.
But it is not the point of the story you have to understand that in the story narrated by Rumi, prince Mahmud allegorically represents God and Ayaz represents a pilgrim on the path to God (or sometimes the reverse).
Likewise when he narrates stories of Majnun and Laila.

If allegoric meaning.. Then what is fire? What they were asked to bring? What did Dulqarnain mean by asking them to give their manpower? Why they said we will pay you for building a barrier? They knew what to do but they couldn't do it on their own.. It was like they didn't know how to do it so that it last...

Sure.
But all those questions amount to this single one what does the text want to teach us ?

However God will He would guid us...

One thing you should note that... I have not understood the story as per some of your questions.. Such where yajuj and majuj are locked.. That's silly..

First, if they are not locked, then they could bypass the wall and spread again corruption on Earth. The purpose of the barrier is to stop them spreading corruption on earth.

Second, the book I mentioned above, Alexander Romance, narrates they were locked in by Alexander into a valley and that Alexander prayed God to bring closer together two mountains called the Breasts of Borea. This and the bronze gates locked in the Gog and Magog into the valley.

Third, verse 18.83 says "they ask you about Dhul Qarnain", which means that people talking with the Messenger already knew some stories about Dhul Qarnain, otherwise they would never have thought to inquire about this character. So we are back to the second point, the Alexander Romance or a similar prior story.

I know some people do believe they are not human.. Nonesence...

Again, the Alexander Romance presents them as roughly half-human, half-beast.

RE read the verses keeping away allegorical meaning perhaps you would get a good understanding... Can you give me a big story in Quran which is totally allegorical? It depends how you perceived the story.

It's hard to keep away allegorical meaning once you are trained to recognize the patterns because it becomes obvious.

[jkhan]

Peace...

Good story.. It was nice to read.

Let's hope one day we will come to know about a structure... Choosing for a manifest literal verse a metaphorical meaning is sheer personal choice...

If it sounds good for you then that's your choice... But keep researching...

[jkhan]

Salamun alaykum,
Regarding the sign, let me put these verses together, so maybe you can build your own understanding

189 Have you perceived that the dwellers of the cave and RAQIMI were of Our signs, a wonder?

1817 And you see the sun when it rises, it visits their cave from the right, and when it sets, it touches them from the left, while they are in an enclosure from it. That is from the signs of God. Whoever God guides is the guided one, and whoever He misguides, you will not find for him any ally to give direction.

So there are two things, dwellers of the cave and the Al Raqimi.

Here is the meaning of the Al Raqimi from the dictionary,

Ra-Qaf-Miim = to write, stripe, brand. raqim - inscription, writing. marqum - written one.

Furthermore,
https//i.ibb.co/4Zks8xB/raqimi.png

So the Raqimi is inscription, books, manuscripts.

Then I looked for cave that holds the old manuscripts. And here is what I found,

Qumran Cave

https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls

I believe in the books that were found, and studied some of them and thanked Allah for the sign given.

Peace

Peace...

Thank you..

Many a such verses need to be explored in order to grasp it... If God guides with it each individual may understand...

[tlihawa]

Peace...

Thank you..

Many a such verses need to be explored in order to grasp it... If God guides with it each individual may understand...

Salaam Jkhan,
You're welcome.

I would like to share my opinion regarding Al Kahfi and some related verses. I'm not a good writer but hopefully can be understood. So let start with these verses,

1883 And they ask you about the Dhul-Qarnain, say "I will recite to you a remembrance of him."

1884 We had facilitated for him in the land, and We had given him the means to all things.

1885 So he followed the means.

1886 Hatta idha balagha maghriba' shamsi wajadaha taghrubu fī ʿaynin ḥami-atin wawajada ʿindahā qawman qul'nā yādhā l-qarnayni immā an tuʿadhiba wa-immā an tattakhidha fīhim ḥus'nan

And here is my translation for the last verse above,

1886 Until he reaches the disappearance of the sun; he found it hidden in black eyes, and he found people nearby. We said "O Dhul-Qarnain One, will you punish, or will you do well."

Yes, this translation may be confusing, but let me explain,

Usually maghrib <Ghayn-Ra-Ba> is translated as the place where the sun sets, or west. But in this context I use a different meaning from taghrubu <Ghayn-Ra-Ba>, as follows

= Ghayn-Ra-Ba = went/passed away, depart/retire/remove/disappear, become remote/distant/absent/hidden/black, withdraw, western, foreign/strange, exceed, abundance, sharpness, (maghrib = sunset), black, raven-black, setting place of the sun, the west.

Furthermore

https//i.ibb.co/Jch6x3X/taghrubu.png

and concerning aynin ḥami-atin or black eye,

Aynin

Ayn-Ya-Nun = to hurt in the eye, smite anyone with the evil eye, flow tears, become a spy. Aayan - to view, face. 'Ainun - eye, look, hole, but of a tree, spy, middle letter of a trilateral word, spring of water, chief, personage of a place. A'yan (pl. 'Inun) lovely, wide-eyed, lovely black eyed. Ma'iinun - water, spring.

Hamiatin

https//i.ibb.co/Ph6QhZQ/hamiatin.png

So the aynin ḥami-atin is the black eye. Or Black part of the eye. Now let me show you this picture,

https//i.ibb.co/C1XM57H/eyes.jpg

Source https//health.clevelandclinic.org/15-fascinating-facts-about-your-eyes-infographic-2/

Did you notice this?

https//i.ibb.co/rfGWst3/eclipse-sun.jpg
Image Paul Morley/Fotolia

This is a natural phenomenon that we know as solar eclipse. So the sun wasn't setting in the west, or in a muddy spring, but it's disappearing behind black eyes or what is mentioned in the next verse as Sitran. So let me continue,

1889 Then he followed the means.

1890 Thumma atbaʿa sababan ḥattā idhā balagha maṭliʿal-shamsi wajadahā taṭluʿu ʿalā qawmin lam najʿal lahum min dūnihā sit'ran

Note that this time Zulkarnain continued his journey to matlial shamsi, and this was not to the east, because as far as I know, east in Arabic is called mashriq. So what is focused in these two verses is about the place of the sun, not the east and west indicator. Like the example in 2115.

And here is my translation for 1890

1890 So when he reached the place exposed by the sun, he found it rising on a people whom We did not make for them any cover <sitran> against it.

So this black eye or sitran is a cover to the sun during the solar eclipse.

Now the questions are,

1. Is there a place on earth that has never experienced a solar eclipse?
2. Why is it called sitran? why not the moon or al qamar?

I found the answer that,

1. Yes, there are areas on earth that have never experienced a solar eclipse.

Let me show you this map of the total solar eclipse path for the 1000 years

https//i.ibb.co/pQ6Scnj/Total-Solar-Eclipse-Paths-1001-2000.gif

The periodicity and recurrence of eclipses is governed by the Saros cycle, Nasa also using this cycle to predict the eclipse.

As you can see on the map, the further south we go, the greater chance of getting the places that have never experienced solar eclipse. So I believe that Dhul-Qarnain were going south to the place that we knew as antarctica.

The second question,

2. Why the thing that blocked the sun during eclipse is called sitran or cover?

Modern science states that a solar eclipse occurs because the moon blocks the sun. But now I do believe that it's not the moon, but there is another celestial body called the "black eye" that covers the sun.

And neither the moon and the sun will ever cross paths,

3640 The sun is not permitted to overtake the moon, nor will the night precede the day; each of them is swimming in its own orbit.

Also the moon is not a solid object. There are quite a lot of videos circulating on Youtube about how we can see the stars through the moon, especially during the crescent moon where there is a dark area. Just search star through the moon.

And this is an ancient knowledge, maybe you already know about it, from wikipedia,
https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_and_crescent

https//i.ibb.co/z7hnNHV/star-and-crecent.png

Now this crescent and star symbol is used as islamic symbol, but the knowledge of this existed long before.

But that's not the only thing that makes me even more convinced. Now let me share these verses,

Let start with the moon first,

541
iq'tarabati = Has come near
l-sāʿatu = the Hour
wa-inshaqqa = and has cloven
l-qamaru = the moon.

inshaqqa

= Shiin-Qaf-Qaf = pass along the way, cross, open a way/passage/vent/channel, cut/split/divided/clave/ripped/tore.

So the cloven here is in the context that something can penetrate it. and here is the example of the context,

https//i.ibb.co/cxX3TpJ/bulan-terbelah-2.png

Just like the lightning going through the clouds.

And let see about the star,

861 By the sky and the night comer<tariqi>.

862 And do you know what the night comer <tariqi> is?

863 The star that piercing.

So these verses explain the phenomenon of star through the moon earlier.

So if the moon is something transparent or cloven, then it is impossible for the moon to block the sun during an eclipse and leave us in total darkness. So the black eye or Sitran is another celestial body that blocks the sun as described in Al Kahfi.

This is also not a knowledge that people have never known before. You can google Rahu and Ketu.

Wikipedia said,

Rāhu (Sanskrit राहु)(U+260A.svg) is one of the nine major celestial bodies (navagraha) in Hindu texts. Unlike most of the others, Rahu is a shadow entity, one that causes eclipses and is the king of meteors.

And if you like playing with numbers, here's an interesting fact,

Rahu-Ketu
As per Hindu astrology, Rahu and Ketu have an orbital cycle of 18 years and are always 180 degrees from each other orbitally (as well as in the birth charts).

Saros Cycle
The periodicity and recurrence of eclipses is governed by the Saros cycle, a period of approximately 6,585.3 days (18 years 11 days 8 hours). It was known to the Chaldeans as a period when lunar eclipses seem to repeat themselves, but the cycle is applicable to solar eclipses as well.

An it explained well in Al Quran in Surah 18

I will continue later with the structure built by Dhul-Qarnain, since we are so close to the land where the sky and earth met. Inyasa Allah

Peace

[jkhan]

Peace.... Tilihawa...

That's an astounding explanation... I have never read something like that before...

But let's stick with Quran grammar and word usage... Suppose if I am to accept your understanding and interpretation then what is the meaning "He found in/near IT (Inda'Ha) " ? Is it probably just a community where the solar eclipse took place? Perhaps they were worshiping the sun and eclipse in fear... So that Dulqarnain was ordered to punish them... If not why to punish just a people who are living in a place wherever he goes.. Everywhere corrupted disbelievers on earth... But this could be a visible sight which Dulqarnain experienced.. So gave the option to punish them or leave them... while for yajuj and majuj it was not given such order... Corruption yajuj majuj or worshiping Sun (shirk) worse?

Just explain.. Are the grammar suit to your interpretation without any ambiguity... If so.. That's an achievement of life time at least for my point of view... ... Yeah.. I was wondering all these years.. What is that we have not given them any covering from sun... Had he gone to New Zealand or Kiribati or such places where sun first rise there are shades foe people to cover... And the usage of He found twice in this is little peculiar...

Keep researching... I think something is coming out from you...
O God I am really thankful to you that I am in this forum...

Additional note Antarctica you said... But there cannot be any people there.. But God has mentioned people.. Just verify...

[jkhan]

Peace Tilihawa..

Don't need to choose a land on which sitra never collide with Sun...
We will never know where Dulqarnain went.. But there must be on this earth where never solar eclipse happens...

By the way... Why in almost every language they call it solar eclipse and lunar eclipse... While moon is the factor for solar eclipse and moon is the one which getting eclipsed in lunar eclipse... In both moon is common.. Something people did know that they differentiated between two eclipses.. Okay sun is hidden so they kept solar eclipse.. But never given any weight to moon there.... Whatever.. I am looking forward to your research.. I am really astonished with your research not coz I do believe in geocentric or rather stationary earth but it is in fact great research which I never seen anyone claim so within Quran.. And within Quran words..

[tlihawa]

Salam Jkhan,
Yes, I agree. Simply we can call it going south. Since I don't know which part of Antarctica, and Antarctica is so vast, so I don't know exactly where he went. And regarding no people in there, we don't know yet since I heard nothing more about research in Antarctica to areas far beyond the south pole.

The last research was only from Admiral Richard E. Byrd who stated that there was still a large landmass behind the south pole in his interview in 1954. No native Antarctica found to date, doesn't mean that they don't exist. You can check this Operation High Jump Led by US Navy back in 1946 to Antarctica,

https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Highjump

This called task Force 68 and included 4,700 men, 13 ships, and 33 aircraft. One massive military mobilization. Did they expect to meet other people there?

But it's ok. I believe the Quran provides information far beyond the reach of my eyes and my knowledge.

4153 We will show them Our signs in the horizons, and within themselves, until it becomes clear to them that this is the truth. Is it not enough that your Lord is witness over all things?

I will patiently wait until Allah reveals the truth on the horizon.

*In the navigational map projection, north pole is the center of the earth under the Polaris or Pole star, so no matter where you are when you look at the horizon, you look towards the south, if you know what I mean ) *

https//i.ibb.co/bPq1g18/New-Standard-Map.jpg

So now let's continue with Al Kahfi,

1891 And verily, We have encompassed of what was with him of the information.

1892 Then he followed the means.

1893 Until he reached an area that was between two barriers <sadayni>, he found within it a people who could barely understand anything said.

note
sadayni = two barriers
saddan = a barrier

1894 They said "O Dhul-qarnain, Yajuj and Majuj are corrupters of the land, so shall we make agreement with you that you will make between us and them a barrier <saddan>?"

So from here, we see Dhul Qarnain continue his journey until he reached between two barriers, the existing barriers. We called it Saddan, And the people there asked Dhul Qarnain to make them another Saddan to separate them from Yajuj and Majuj.

And Dhul Qarnain said,

1895 He said "What my Lord has given me is far better. So help me with strength and I will make between you and them a RADMAN <patch>."

Ra-Dal-Miim = to shut, block, fill up, a thing which one part is put upon another or joined or sewed. radmin - rampart, strong wall.

Furthermore about Radman,

https//i.ibb.co/ZT8ZSb8/radman.png

So let me explain what I see here with a picture,

https//i.ibb.co/7CK5CjC/patch.png

Dhul Qarnain reaches a place which is the gap between two barriers (two Saddan or Sadayni), and he made a patch to cover the gap, called radman.

Now let's see what this Radman was made of,

1896 "Bring me sheets of iron," until he leveled between the two barriers. He said "Blow," until he made it fire. He said "Bring me molten copper <qit'ran> so I can pour it over."

1897 So they could not aware of it <yaẓharūhu> , and they could not penetrate it.

1898 He said "This is a mercy from my Lord. But when the promise of my Lord comes, He will make it crumble. And the promise of my Lord is truth."

This is the same material used to make the sky, metal and molten copper. Let's look back at how the sky was created.

Let's start with the Taurat first,

Job 3718
tar-qî-a‘ ‘im-mōw liš-ḥā-qîm; ḥă-zā-qîm, kir-’î mū-ṣāq.
Have you spread out with Him the skies Strong as a mirror cast metal?

And from Al Quran,

4111 Then He directed towards the sky, while it was duskiness (dukhanun), and He said to it, and to the earth "Come willingly or unwillingly." They said "We come willingly."

You can see the context of Dal-Kha-Nun in here,

https//i.ibb.co/L5RXLSx/dukhanun.png

So the darkness of the night sky that we see is a metallic color.

Let me explain further,

5533 O assembly of Jinn and mankind, if you can penetrate the molten copper <aqtari> of the heavens and the earth, then go ahead and penetrate. You will not penetrate without might.

5535 He sends against both of you projectiles of fire, and of copper; so you will not succeed.

Aqtari <qāf ṭā rā> here is the same Qitran <qāf ṭā rā> used by Dhul Qarnain when he established the Radman.

So basically what Dhul Qarnain was doing is re-simulating the creation of the sky with molten copper that protects against sight and penetration. However he stated that what God made was much better.

I believe that this story is told as knowledge for me, maybe for us.

I understand this story in this way, because I have a previous basis for understanding the creation of the universe, which can be seen here

https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9609156.msg413444#msg413444

In this link is my attempt to look within oneself to understand the phenomena of the universe..

Again,

4153 We will show them Our signs in the horizons, and within themselves, until it becomes clear to them that this is the truth. Is it not enough that your Lord is witness over all things?

Peace

[jkhan]

Peace brother Tilihawa...

You brought a gem of research when you talked about sitra or black eye.. Based on that I refreshed so many things..
Thank you for that.. I don't know how hard you exerted to reveal this... But I can't do anything more than thanking you..

Have you noticed in chapter 18 almost all stories somewhat connected with BLOCKING.. ..

BTW 5533 is possibly right as per the interpretation you furnished... It can still be borders (atraf)... Anyhow.. God bless you more more to find meaningful researches which is none other than truth..
Don't worry if you get negative responses.. 99 out of 100 would not agree with you as if they are based on concrete proof agaisnt your research.. Just neglect them.. Unless if they speak the truth...

[tlihawa]

Salam Jkhan,

Have you noticed in chapter 18 almost all stories somewhat connected with BLOCKING.. ..

Yes you're right. Just realize that. The cave that protect the youth, sitran, saddan, radman.. Thank you for your feedback brother.

20114 Then High above all is God, the King, the True. And do not be hasty with the Qur'an before its inspiration is completed to you, and say "My Lord, increase my knowledge."

May Allah increase our knowledge.

Peace

[jkhan]

Salam Jkhan,
Yes you're right. Just realize that. The cave that protect the youth, sitran, saddan, radman.. Thank you for your feedback brother.

20114 Then High above all is God, the King, the True. And do not be hasty with the Qur'an before its inspiration is completed to you, and say "My Lord, increase my knowledge."

May Allah increase our knowledge.

Peace

Yes.. Good verse...

At the same time.. What about musa stories in the chapter.. Aren't they all blocking stores.. Scuttled the boat..blocked the way to capture... Killed the boy.. Blocked the way to reach their parents and hinder their life.. Repaired the wall.. Blocked the way from others taking the treasure..
Garden.. Destroyed.. Blocked from having the much anticipated harvest..
God knows best.. What actually blocking the sun in solar eclipse...