seven heavens

ade_cool

salam everyone

i would please like your opinion as to what you think the seven heavens are

i take the verses literally and indeed there are seven heavens, but the question is, can we know/observe them?

surah 71 verse 15 has nuh pbuh telling his people

“did you not see how God created seven heavens in layers?”

nuh pbuh tells his people “did you not see how..” ... so does that mean perhaps the seven heavens are “visible” to us and we could observe them? (or maybe they were visible to nuh pbuh people only? or to no one?)
however the thing is that nuh pbuh uses the word “how” ... so rather than “do you not see the seven heavens”, nuh pbuh says “did you not see HOW (kayfa)...” so what do you guys think is meant with the word “how”?

any comments please welcome

thank uuu

peace

Salam tutti_frutti,

“Do you not see how God created seven heavens in layers?”
“And He made the moon to illuminate in them, and He made the sun to be a lamp?”

If we read further the next verse, I believe the seven heavens are visible/observable by us as (not only by people of Nuh).

The reason is obvious

first, we can observe the moon and the sun (they are in seven heavens)
second, if God is asking "do you not see/understand/think/consider/know HOW ...", then it implies the ones being addressed have (or will have - since Quran often mentions things that can be appreciated better in far future) the ability to understand the HOW.

As for what the seven heavens are, you might want to check this out
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=3n3ttEA1rbs

The above is the interpretation that is only possible in our age with the advance of science and technology (I am sure there are other interpretations as well and I am all ears to hear all of them). People in the past definitely have different interpretation and people in the future might have different interpretation as their science and technology advance further.

Wassalam,
Ade

tutti_frutti

salam ade

thank you for your reply

ahh indeed with the following verse (7116) maybe we could observe the seven heavens (but which of the heavens? all of them?)

but what do you think the seven heavens are? is the moon in the lowest of the seven heavens? highest of the seven heavens? or can we only say the moon is in the heavens? etc

you think all seven heavens are contained in the universe as we know it/can observe it?
(or is your opinion in line with the youtube link you sent and by watching it i would understand your opinion?)

btw thank you for the youtube link i will check it out and get back to you if thats okay

thank uuu

peace

Iyyaka

Salam Alaykoum,

My vision per the quran is that the Quran was clear for people in arabia who lives in the beginning of the 7th century..It is first a book of Guidance for men not a book of modern science..(not incompatible - juste not on the same level of knowledge). Men in the Quran are the main and center subject, for convincing them to follow the good path for their preservation (no big bang theory, no dinosaurs etc..).
The main knowledge is about an "embodied knowledge" (from a humain perspective and specially from arabs perspective), or propheties in particular for the end of this world (many description of the final cosmic cataclysm), or by outlining creation in line with the Torah

1/ "As for what the seven heavens are, you might want to check this out
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=3n3ttEA1rbs"
=> she talks about the evolution of the universe but in it is about actual space construction (she is off topic).

2/
Don't you consider-by-the-sight-experience* how did create Allah (the) seven** heavens (in) layers***,
And made the moon therein**** a light and made the sun a lamp ?

the expression "alam taraw" is used when expressing astonishment (arouses admiration - hamd) equivalent to "do you see that". Even if you can only see the lowest sky you know others sky is above this one.

** the number 7 in the Semitic language expresses the number 7 but also the perfect completeness (nothing to add ..) without flaw.
He created seven heavens in layers. You do not see any imperfection in the creation by the Almighty. Keep looking; do you see any flaw?
The vison of the sky for ancient arabs is like house with floors (can see in Yemen) https//www.herodote.net/_Arabie_heureuse_Arabie_dechiree-synthese-2020-452.php (second image).

*** "ṭibāqan" = vaults of celestial spheres superimposed on each other like the envelopes of an onion.

**** the moon is inside the heavens - it makes part of the lowest sky.

Peace

tutti_frutti

salam iyakka

indeed i understand too that the Quran is a book of guidance, a mercy to humanity as well as a warning

i also understand that the Quran also contains proofs

my point with the verse is that nuh pbuh does not say “have you not seen how the God created the skies” but rather actually mentions “seven heavens”

so are we able to understand these seven heavens? or you believe the seven heavens simply means complete?

thank you for the youtube link (ade also shared the same link)

thank you for the article link
although whether or not people in arabia before saw the skies as layers of house should not matter to the Quran because it is not their thoughts that are in the Quran but it is the truth from The Lord. so it is not as how they saw the skies that matters but the seven heavens is how the skies actually are

btw the article mentions sheba kiglngdom
in yemen, are they sure about that? (i am eager to identify the kingdom lol)

thank uu

peace

Iyyaka

salam iyakka

my point with the verse is that nuh pbuh does not say “have you not seen how the God created the skies” but rather actually mentions “seven heavens”

so are we able to understand these seven heavens? or you believe the seven heavens simply means complete?

thank you for the youtube link (ade also shared the same link)

thank you for the article link
although whether or not people in arabia before saw the skies as layers of house should not matter to the Quran because it is not their thoughts that are in the Quran but it is the truth from The Lord. so it is not as how they saw the skies that matters but the seven heavens is how the skies actually are

btw the article mentions sheba kiglngdom
in yemen, are they sure about that? (i am eager to identify the kingdom lol)

thank uu

peace

Salam tutti_frutti,

Point 1 - i quote you "so are we able to understand these seven heavens? or you believe the seven heavens simply means complete?"
=> As i know today by using Al-quran the answer is NO at your fist question. We just know the lowest sky. And i don't know per quran if celestial objects which are not visible to the naked eye in the sky are part of the lowest sky or not. Just guesswork for me (I have the modern science for that)
=> Yes, heavens means several skies and "7" symbolize the perfection of all (they are well-organized and without flaws.).

Point 2 - I quote u "thank you for the youtube link (ade also shared the same link)"
=> Sorry I took the link from ade to refute the argumentation of this video (she is off topic concerning me)

Point 3 - I quote u "btw the article mentions sheba kiglngdom
in yemen, are they sure about that? (i am eager to identify the kingdom lol)"
=> Sorry i was founding a photo for illustrate traditional Arabian multi-storey houses, and too quicky, i sent u the link of a paper which i was ONLY interested by the second image inside it.

Peace.

Iyyaka

Salam,

Extract from pages 65 to 67 of my PDF (https//reveniraucoran.fr/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Literary_Composition_of_the_Quran.pdf)

1 - Translation with structure

He who CONCEIVED the seven heavens one above another.
No want of proportion wilt thou see in the Creation of the Gracious.
So turn thy vision again
seest thou any flaw ?
Again turn thy vision a second time (thy) vision will come back to thee dull and discomfited,
In a state worn out.

And We have adorned the nearest heaven by means of lighted wicks ,
And We have made such (lighted wicks) (as) missiles to drive away devils .
And have prepared for them the Chastisement of the Blazing Fire.

2 - Notes

Ancient Astronomy

« In addition to the celestial vault composed of stars ("the nearest heaven" in the Quran) whose organization seemed fixed, Babylonian astronomers had quickly noticed seven other bodies whose movement was not slaved to it, and sometimes even retrograde the Sun, the Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn.
In order to explain their movements, they had associated a "sky" to each one. This vision of things was taken up by Ptolemy (https//reveniraucoran.fr/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/Ptolemee.jpg), and lasted until Nicolas Copernicus" (source modified from Wikipedia).

The Qur'an repeats this ancient view, especially in Surah a-Talaq
"God who CONCEIVED seven heavens and as many earths (= and the number of equivalent earths)".

Additional remark

With this subject, we can measure the importance of historically contextualizing the appearance of a sacred text in order to understand its fundamental/primary meaning.

Without this salutary backward glance (although one must have the material and intellectual means to do so), one can easily fall into anachronism. Thus, modern readers have suggested that the word "seven" in the expression "seven heavens" refers to the following realities

 Seven = multiple ;
 Seven universes ;
 Seven layers of the Earth's atmosphere etc.

The Qur'an is not a book of science in the modern sense of the word.
The Qur'an speaks of the natural world mainly from an earthly point of view, from things that man can easily observe and meditate upon. That is why throughout the Qur'an, when it talks about the sun, the moon, the clouds, the mountains, the rivers, the stars, the separation of bodies of water, embryology and even cosmology, all these elements are oriented from an earthly point of view, simply so that man can appreciate God's design.

A priori this describes well the phenomenon of shooting stars/meteors (they indeed look like lit wicks).

Devils among the species of the Djinns who rise in the high atmosphere to listen to something

God bless you.

Emre_1974tr

HEAVEN IS NOT PARADISE IT IS UNIVERSE
Quran 5122 In the heaven is your provision, and what you are promised. (Paradise and hell are both ready and outside the world, in the sky)

The prophets living in Paradise will be summoned to the court as witnesses on the Day of Judgment

Quran 7711 And when the messengers are gathered.

heaven is not paradise. Heaven =universe
Heavens = universes

The Qur'an offers a multi-universe model.

But it is not infinite.

Seven universes, for example.

Other universes have planets too.

65.12 Allah is the one who created seven Heavens and from Earth like them (of corresponding type); command descends among them so that you may know that Allah is capable of anything and that Allah knows everything.

Example "Floor of Lord" (Indallah) = afterlife universe
Except for the Hereafter universe, all the other universes will end with big crunch.

Quran 21104 On the day when We roll up the heavens like a scroll of books is rolled up. As We initiated the first creation, so shall We return it. It is a promise of Ours that We will do this.

Quran 3967 They have not given God His true worth; and the whole earth is within His fist on the day of resurrection, and the heavens will be folded in His right hand. Be He glorified; He is much too high above what they set up.

Quran A man came running from the farthest part of the city, saying "O my people, follow the messengers. Follow those who do not ask you for any wage, and are guided. Why should I not serve the One who initiated me, and to Him is your ultimate return? Shall I take gods besides Him? If the Gracious intends any harm for me, their intercession cannot help me in the least, nor can they save me. Then I would be clearly astray. I have acknowledged your Lord, so listen to me! It was said, "Enter Paradise." He said "Oh, how I wish my people only knew of what my Lord has forgiven me, and made me of the honored ones."We did not send down upon his people after him soldiers from the sky; for there was no need to send them down. For all it took was one scream, whereupon they were stilled. (3620-29)

Quran 1956 And recall in the Book, Enoch; he was a man of truth, a prophet.
1957 And We raised him to a high place.

Quran 355 For God said "O Jesus, I will terminate your life, and raise you to Me, and cleanse you of those who have rejected, and make those who have followed you above those who have rejected until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return, all of you,so I will judge between you in what it was that you disputed."

Prophets and very good peoples in Paradise now. They were created in Paradise (floor of Lord/other universe) without waiting for the Hour.

But, Other people will wait for the Resurrection for re-creation.

The Qur'an says that a group of exception people are already living in Paradise.

And it even tells us that some of them are talking about the world's inhabitants. They say "they(World peoples) will come to us later". However, it is difficult to see them for you because the English translations of the Qur'an do not provide complete sentences.

Likewise, the verses of the Lord's Floor are also mentioned, but you cannot see it again in English translations. Because, unfortunately, those under the influence of traditional interpretation make translations in their own understanding.

Yes, according to the Qur'an there are already people living in Paradise.

And that's where Christians believe that Jesus is in paradise.

In the false Gospels, the event was described incorrectly, so you could not see the painting until today.

Jesus and all other messengers/ prophets live in paradise now.

Quran 3169 Do not count that those who are killed in the sake of God are dead. No, they are alive at their Lord receiving provisions.

3170 Happy with what God has granted them from His grace, and they rejoice in those who have yet to follow after them. There is no fear upon them nor do they grieve.

517 Ingrates indeed are those who have said, "God is the Messiah the son of Mary." Say, "Who has any power against God if He had wanted to destroy the Messiah son of Mary, and his mother, and all who are on earth!" To God is the sovereignty of heavens and earth and all that is in-between; He creates what He pleases. God is capable of all things. (Jesus and his mother living in other universe, Like other prophets...)

Quran 848 He will then receive an easy reckoning.
849 He will return to his family in joy! (The person who is called from Paradise to the day of judgment will return to Paradise again with joy)

5313 Indeed, he saw him in another descent.
5314 At the ultimate point.
5315 Next to the eternal Paradise.
(Even when the prophet Muhammad lived in the world, he was taken to visit the universe of the Hereafter/ Floor of Lord)

567 You will be in three groupings.
568 So those on the right; who will be from those on the right?
569 Those on the left; who will be from those on the left?
5610 And those foremost, who will be from those foremost?
(8th verse about peple who after the apocalyptic blessing will enter the paradise, 9th verse about who will enter hell, and the 10th verse talking about the already pioneering group living in Paradise. Thus, the three classes mentioned in verse 7 are completed)

1993 When all there is in the heavens and the earth will but come to the Gracious as servants.

1956 Recall in the book Enoch; he was truthful, a prophet.
1957 We raised him to a high place.
(Enoch is living in Paradise now)

Emre_1974tr