Honestly This topic is leading me to disbelieve

Noon_waalqalami

If we consider Quran accepr two relationship that man and woman can have sex with each other

1-nikah(as you said written marriage contract)
2-relation ship which based was based on oath(relationship before revelation of Quran)

It will make sense

peace, it's broader term use context see 15 occurrences

wherewithal/resources
orphans and/or bereaved mothers
contracted doctors, employees, etc.
captives at the time/prior to revelation (males and females), have to deal with them too

matrimonial oath relationship cannot apply consistently

2431 وقل and say للمومنت to those believers (f/p) ...
الا except لبعولتهن to husbands theirs او or ابىهن fathers theirs (f/p) ...
او or نساىهن womenfolk (e.g. female relatives) theirs (f/p)
او or ما what ملكت possess اىمنهن right hands theirs (f/p)

3355 لا not جنح guilt علىهن on them (f/p) فى in ابىهن fathers theirs (f/p)...
ولا and not نساىهن womenfolk theirs (f/p)
ولا and not ما what ملكت possess اىمنهن right hands theirs (f/p)

likewise azwaj/spouses inherit
ما ma ملكت malakat اىمنكم aymanukum do not inherit

412
ولكم and for you (pl.) نصف half ما ma/what ترك left ازوجكم azwajukum/spouses yours (pl.)
ولهن and for them (feminine pl.) الربع the fourth مما mimma/from what تركتم left you (pl.)

Cairo, National Library qaf 47
One of the oldest manuscripts dated 606-652 CE (95.4% probability)
https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/4/vers/12/handschrift/73

link to word for word translation https//i.postimg.cc/x17gGqFb/ch4v11-15.jpg

And as you said 2433… it is a good mentioning… God says make contract marriage with them and give them from your wealth(ie dowry)

case is masculine plural see context pertains to males and females; says help them out financially

2433 ولىستعفف and let refrain الذىن the ones لا not ىجدون finding نكحا marriage of حتى until ىغنىهم enriches them الله the god من from فضله bounty his والذىن and the ones ىبتغون pursuing الكتب the writ مما from what ملكت possess اىمنكم right hands yours فكاتبوهم fakatibuhum/so write ye them (masculine pl.) ان if علمتم know you فىهم in them خىرا best/good of واتوهم waatuhum/and gives ye them (masculine pl.) من from مال wealth الله the god الذى the one اتكم brought you ولا and not تكرهوا thou dislike (coerce) ye of فتىتكم fatayatikum/maidens yours على on البغا the sexual matters ان if اردن intends they (f/p) تحصنا fortification of لتبتغوا to thou pursue ye of عرض gain الحىه the life الدنىا the world ومن and who ىكرههن disliked (coerced) them (f/p) فان so indeed الله the god من from بعد after اكرههن dislike (coercion) theirs (f/p) غفور forgiver رحىم merciful

Anoushirvan

case is masculine plural see context pertains to males and females; says help them out financially

2433 ولىستعفف and let refrain الذىن the ones لا not ىجدون finding نكحا marriage of حتى until ىغنىهم enriches them الله the god من from فضله bounty his والذىن and the ones ىبتغون pursuing الكتب the writ مما from what ملكت possess اىمنكم right hands yours فكاتبوهم fakatibuhum/so write ye them (masculine pl.) ان if علمتم know you فىهم in them خىرا best/good of واتوهم waatuhum/and gives ye them (masculine pl.) من from مال wealth الله the god الذى the one اتكم brought you ولا and not تكرهوا thou dislike (coerce) ye of فتىتكم fatayatikum/maidens yours على on البغا the sexual matters ان if اردن intends they (f/p) تحصنا fortification of لتبتغوا to thou pursue ye of عرض gain الحىه the life الدنىا the world ومن and who ىكرههن disliked (coerced) them (f/p) فان so indeed الله the god من from بعد after اكرههن dislike (coercion) theirs (f/p) غفور forgiver رحىم merciful

"fakatibuhum" bears the masculine suffix -hum because of "ma" in "ma malakat aymanukum", not because the persons under "ma malakat aymanukum" can be male or female.
In the context, those persons can only be female.

Other than that I agree that MMA has likely broader sense than marital union based on oath, though it seems to be the majority meaning in Qur'an.

Mahdi20

Peace noonwaqalami…

Yes i didnt say that in all of the 15 times it should mean relationship based on oath… yes i agree this may have different meaning , thanks

Peace GA this translation of 2433 that u provided dont makes sense…. Why God said give them from your money? i mean As your translarion slave will pay X amount of money to free him/herself…. Why God said when you free them give them money? Why he said that when you taked money from them in first place….

U said Why marry at all? Everything based on "relationship before revelation of Quran/Allah"?

This type of relationship cant be done in today lifes…. Verb is past … ملکت

Noon_waalqalami

"fakatibuhum" bears the masculine suffix -hum because of "ma" in "ma malakat aymanukum", not because the persons under "ma malakat aymanukum" can be male or female.
In the context, those persons can only be female.

Other than that I agree that MMA has likely broader sense than marital union based on oath, though it seems to be the majority meaning in Qur'an.

peace, suffix "hum" never means females only

2433 واتوهم waatuhum/and gives ye them (masculine pl.) من from مال wealth الله the god الذى the one اتكم brought you (pl.)

424 فاتوهن faatuhunna/so gives ye them (feminine pl.) اجورهن rewards theirs

433 ولكل and to each جعلنا made we of مولى heirs مما from what ترك left الولدن the parents والاقربون and the nearer/relatives being والذىن and the ones عقدت pledge اىمنكم aymanukum/right hands yours فاتوهم faatuhum/so gives ye them (masculine pl.) نصىبهم share theirs ان indeed الله the god كان be على on كل every شى thing شهىدا witness of

Anoushirvan

peace, suffix "hum" never means females only

2433 واتوهم waatuhum/and gives ye them (masculine pl.) من from مال wealth الله the god الذى the one اتكم brought you (pl.)

424 فاتوهن faatuhunna/so gives ye them (feminine pl.) اجورهن rewards theirs

433 ولكل and to each جعلنا made we of مولى heirs مما from what ترك left الولدن the parents والاقربون and the nearer/relatives being والذىن and the ones عقدت pledge اىمنكم aymanukum/right hands yours فاتوهم faatuhum/so gives ye them (masculine pl.) نصىبهم share theirs ان indeed الله the god كان be على on كل every شى thing شهىدا witness of

It means "ma" in the sentence, hence masculine, though people under "ma malakat aymanukum" in verse 24.33 are female only.

tlihawa

Salam Mahdi,

First of all, I want to show you a verse that explains about the Quran itself, and how we can understand the Quran,

2285 shahru ramaḍāna alladhī unzila fīhil-qur'ānu hudan lilnnāsi wabayyinātin minal-hudā wal-fur'qāni

2285 Month (of) Ramadhaan (is) that was revealed therein the Quran, a Guidance for mankind and bayyinati of the guidance and the Criterion.

So there is hudan and bayyinatin of the hudan. And let me show you the context of the bayyinati here,

so the function of bayyinati for this hudan in the above verse is "to show the meaning that is intended" and also "making meaning apparent to the mind (of the reader) so that it becomes distinct from other meanings and from what might be confounded with it"

In other words, bayyinati are explanations of the hudan itself which can be the context of an object or the context of the verse as a whole.

This also means that the hudan also does not stand alone, there will always be bayyinati explaining it to prevent unintended meanings.

So that's the rule of the almighty..

Now let's see the rules you made,

In the Name Of God

Salam….

Someone may say its refers to married mma , but where is the word marriage? Its different from azwaj(spouse)….

"where is the word marriage?"

Then you insist that everything should be explained in just one verse..

There have been many fellow free-minders here who have explained to you what the MMA is..

but since you set your own rules, then of course all that won't help since the problem is in your view not in Quran. So the only one who can help you is yourself.

If I follow your rules and your way of thinking, I have many reasons to leave the Quran, not just only about this MMA, but for example,

2191 And you may kill them wherever you engage them,...

489 They hope that you will reject as they have rejected, then you will be the same. Do not take any of them as allies until they emigrate in the cause of God. If they turn away, then take them and kill them wherever you find them; and do not take from them any ally or supporter.

Why should I kill unbelievers?

Or how Allah forced our beloved prophet to marry the ex-wife of his adopted son... Why, O Rabb?

3337 And you said to the one who was graced by God, and graced by you "Keep your wife and reverence God," and you hid inside yourself what God wished to proclaim. And you were concerned with the people, while God was more deserving that you be concerned with. So when Zayd ended his relationship with his wife, We had you marry her, to establish that there is no wrongdoing for the believers in marrying the wives of their adopted sons if their relationship is ended. And the command of God is always done.

But of course I understand that everything has an explanation that makes me understand, there is a meaning behind these stories.

About MMA itself, I've written something about this before, it can be seen here,

Salaam centi50,
in my head opinion, there's nothing wrong with God allow us to do polygamy.

But this is not something easy and not everyone wants to do it. May I say this is a last resort for fair dealing with the female orphans who are under your care.

Let me elaborate further,

If you are a caretaker of the orphans then you SHOULD NOT,

42 And give the orphans their money; and do not substitute the rotten for the good, and do not consume their money to your money; for truly it is a great sin!

Do not consume their money, but if they are kind of mentally retarded, you should take care of their money management,

45 And do not give the foolish ones <has limited understanding> your money for which God has made you overseers, and spend on them from it and clothe them, and speak to them in goodness.

Then if they grow up, you should do the test,

46 And test the orphans when they reach the age of marriage, then, if you have determined from them comprehension, then give them their money, and do not deliberately consume it wastefully or quickly before they grow up. And whoever is rich, then let him not claim anything, and if he is poor then let him consume in kindness. If you give to them their money, then make a witness for them, and God is enough for Reckoning.

So now, how do we deal with the female orphan that already reach the age of the marriage but they are kind of mentally retarded? Most likely nobody else want to marry them.

This is a dilemma situation.

We cannot continue to be caretakers of female orphans who have become adult women and we have to hand over their assets to them. But on the one hand we are also worried about giving away their property because of their mental condition.

So God explained to us,

4127 They ask you for divine instruction concerning women. Say, "God instructs you regarding them, as has been recited for you in the book about the women orphans to whom you don't give them what is ordained for them and you desire to marry them, as well as the powerless children, and your duty to treat orphans with justice <bil qisti>. Whatever good you do, God has full knowledge of it.

The only reason you're not give them their money is because they are mentally retarded or has limited understanding. So the solution here is to marry them,

43 And if you fear that you will not be able to do justice <tuq'situ> with the orphans, then you may marry those who are agreeable to you of the women two, and three, and four. But if you fear you will not be fair <ta'dilu>, then only one, or whom you are committed to by your oath. This is best that you do not face financial hardship.

So the first justice word, using qaf-sin-ta, <tuqsitu and bil qisti> is the justice between you and the woman orphans, not to consume their money illegally, this is about money management.

And the second justice word (fair), using ayn-dal-lam is the justice between the orphans that you want to marry, this one is related to relationship in marriage that you want to do with the orphans.

In a situation like this, I think polygamy is not something that is expected to happen, but rather a solution how to do justice to female orphans who have grown up but have mental or psychological problems, and they need us to survive.

So if someone wants to do polygamy, then the questions will be,

Do you run orphanage?
Are there any adult female orphans who has mental problems?
Is there anyone else who wants to marry them?

If the answers are yes-yes-no, then go ahead. They are your ma malakat aymanukum.

Peace

So from there we can see that female orphans who are cared for and have mental retardation (and cannot manage their own finances) are the responsibility of the orphanage owner.

She became the MMA of the person in charge of the orphanage, and it's not a pleasant thing of course to marry them, but God's command to uphold justice for those orphaned girls who are growing up but have mental retardation to be married.

43 And if you fear that you cannot do the justice with the orphans, then you may marry those who are agreeable to you of the women two, and three, and four. But if you fear you will not be fair, then only one, or whom you are committed to by your oath. That is more appropriate that (may) not you oppress.

Notice in arabic words,

fa-in khif'tum allā taʿdilū fawāḥidatan aw mā malakat aymānukum

the orphan and “ma malakat aymanuhum” are separated by “aw”, Here it does not mean that the orphan and ma malakat aymanuhum are two different objects.

“AW” is usually translated as “OR”. There is no doubt that “OR” is one of the meanings of “AW” but as a matter of fact, this word is used in no less than 12 different ways (also explained in Lane’s Arabic-English Lexicon). One of the uses of this word is TAFSEEL, (i.e. elaborative or explanatory).

In other words, “aw” is also used to add some meaning to the previous word or to explain a previous word or to give some attribute or characteristics of the previous word.

And here's another example from ma malakat aymanukum,

424 And (prohibited are) the ones who are married of the women except whom you are committed to by your oath <ma malakat aymankumum>..

So we can't marry married women except the ma malakat aymanukum.

6010 O you who believe, if the believing females come emigrating to you, then you shall test them. God is fully aware of their belief. Thus, if you establish that they are believers, then you shall not return them to the rejecters. They are no longer permissible for one another. And return the dowries that were paid. And there is no sin upon you to marry them, if you have paid their dowries to them. And do not keep disbelieving wives, and ask back what dowries you paid. And let them ask back what dowries they had paid. Such is the judgment of God; He judges between you. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.

6012 O prophet, if the believing females come to pledge to you that they will not set up anything besides God, nor steal, nor commit adultery, nor kill their children, nor fabricate any falsehood, nor disobey you in any matter which is righteous, then you shall accept their pledge, and ask God to forgive them. God is Forgiver, Merciful.

So these women are not slaves as many people say. They are married women but their marriage with the unbeliever is not permitted by Allah, and they can be married by believers. They are people who need protection from someone who is not their biological family.

Now, think for a moment about what MMA means, especially about aimanukum

The word “Aimanun” is the plural of “Yaminun” and means “Right hands”. The root of this word is yā mīm nūn.

The word “Yaminun” also means
-A covenant
-An oath

So they are people who are bound by an oath/covenant to you.

Look at the verse below,

433 And for each We have made inheritors for what was left behind by the parents and the relatives. And those bound by your oath <aqadat aymanukum>, you shall give them their portion. God is witness over all things.

Because we don't see a special share of inheritance for MMA, this portion of MMA is the same as spouse.

Now think of “Marriage” which is also a covenant,

So in that context, the spouse is also a person who is bound by a covenant (marriage).

then using the same context of AW as TAFSEEL,

7030 illā ʿalā azwājihim aw mā malakat aymānuhum

Hopefully you get inspired to develop your own understanding which is much better than this and draws you closer to God. Always remember that there is always a bayyinati in every hudan

Peace

Noon_waalqalami

It means "ma" in the sentence, hence masculine, though people under "ma malakat aymanukum" in verse 24.33 are female only.

"ma/mimma" has nothing to do with it, again "hum" is never females only "hunna"

this is basic Arabic language stuff, how many examples need to see?

2431 ما ma/what ملكت possess اىمنهن aymanuhunna/right hands theirs (feminine pl.)
2433 فكاتبوهم fakatibuhum/so write ye them (masculine pl.)
واتوهم waatuhum/and gives ye them (masculine pl.)

424 فاتوهن faatuhunna/so gives ye them (feminine pl.)
425 فانكحوهن fa-inkihuhunna/so betroths ye them (feminine pl.)
واتوهن waatuhunna/and gives ye them (feminine pl.)

433 فاتوهم faatuhum/so gives ye them (masculine pl.)

434 فعظوهن faizuhunna/so admonish ye them (feminine pl.)
واهجروهن wa-uhjuruhunna/and abandons ye them (feminine pl.)
واضربوهن wa-idribuhunna/and shuns ye them (feminine pl.)

So from there we can see that female orphans who are cared for and have mental retardation

which words, use your "rushdan" that it pertains to only "special needs" females?

46 وابتلوا and test ye of الىتمى the orphans حتى until اذا when of بلغوا reach they of النكح the marriage (age)فان so if انستم perceives you منهم minhum/of them (masculine pl.) رشدا rushdan/rational of فادفعوا so deliver ye of الىهم to them (masculine pl.) امولهم amwalahum/wealth theirs (masculine pl.) ...

Anoushirvan

"ma/mimma" has nothing to do with it, again "hum" is never females only "hunna"

this is basic Arabic language stuff, how many examples need to see?

2431 ما ma/what ملكت possess اىمنهن aymanuhunna/right hands theirs (feminine pl.)
2433 فكاتبوهم fakatibuhum/so write ye them (masculine pl.)
واتوهم waatuhum/and gives ye them (masculine pl.)

424 فاتوهن faatuhunna/so gives ye them (feminine pl.)
425 فانكحوهن fa-inkihuhunna/so betroths ye them (feminine pl.)
واتوهن waatuhunna/and gives ye them (feminine pl.)

433 فاتوهم faatuhum/so gives ye them (masculine pl.)

434 فعظوهن faizuhunna/so admonish ye them (feminine pl.)
واهجروهن wa-uhjuruhunna/and abandons ye them (feminine pl.)
واضربوهن wa-idribuhunna/and shuns ye them (feminine pl.)

As customary with you, you didn't understand my point.
You need to distinguish between

those taking the oaths
those whom the oaths have bound (alladhina aqadat aymanuhum, verse 4.33 in Surah 4)
what relationship is bound by the oaths

I was talking of the -hum in fakatibuhum, you are talking of the -hum in aymanuhum.
The -hum in aymanuhum is for those taking the oaths, so is the -hunna in aymanuhunna in verse 24.31.
In verse 24.31, those taking the oaths are female, in verse 24.33, those taking the oaths are male.

The -hum in fakatibuhum is for what is bound by the oaths ("ma" in "ma malakat...&quot, and because of the relative pronoun "ma" to which the suffix -hum of fakatibuhum refers, it is -hum masculine irrespective whether those whom the oaths have bound are actually female or male.

I appreciate that you are trying to grasp an all-inclusive and gender-less reading of Qur'an.
But really, in the context of 7th CE in Arabia, this is totally anachronistic.

So in verse 24.33 the context is clearly that those whom the oaths have bound are female.
Any other reading is obviously absurd.

Noon_waalqalami

As customary with you, you didn't understand my point.
You need to distinguish between

those taking the oaths
those whom the oaths have bound (alladhina aqadat aymanuhum, verse 4.33 in Surah 4)
what relationship is bound by the oaths

I was talking of the -hum in fakatibuhum, you are talking of the -hum in aymanuhum.
The -hum in aymanuhum is for those taking the oaths, so is the -hunna in aymanuhunna in verse 24.31.
In verse 24.31, those taking the oaths are female, in verse 24.33, those taking the oaths are male.

The -hum in fakatibuhum is for what is bound by the oaths ("ma" in "ma malakat...&quot, and because of the relative pronoun "ma" to which the suffix -hum of fakatibuhum refers, it is -hum masculine irrespective whether those whom the oaths have bound are actually female or male.

I appreciate that you are trying to grasp an all-inclusive and gender-less reading of Qur'an.
But really, in the context of 7th CE in Arabia, this is totally anachronistic.

So in verse 24.33 the context is clearly that those whom the oaths have bound are female.
Any other reading is obviously absurd.

"hum" in the entire book refers to males OR males and females NEVER to females only "hunna"

2433 includes males and females mma NOT females only

fakatibuhum/so write ye them (masculine pl.) -- males and females
waatuhum/and gives ye them (masculine pl.) -- males and females
NOT
waatuhunna/and gives ye them (feminine pl.) -- females only

2433 ولىستعفف and let refrain الذىن the ones لا not ىجدون finding نكحا marriage of حتى until ىغنىهم enriches them الله the god من from فضله bounty his والذىن and the ones ىبتغون pursuing الكتب l-kitaba/the writ مما mimma/from what ملكت possess اىمنكم right hands yours فكاتبوهم fakatibuhum/so write ye them (masculine pl.) ان if علمتم know you فىهم in them (masculine pl.) خىرا best/good of واتوهم waatuhum/and gives ye them (masculine pl.) من from مال wealth الله the god الذى the one اتكم brought you ولا and not تكرهوا thou dislike (coerce) ye of فتىتكم maidens yours (feminine pl.) على on البغا the sexual matters ان if اردن intends they (f/p) تحصنا fortification of لتبتغوا to thou pursue ye of عرض gain الحىه the life الدنىا the world ومن and who ىكرههن yukrihhunna/disliked (coerced) them (f/p) فان so indeed الله the god من from بعد after اكرههن dislike (coercion) theirs (f/p) غفور forgiver رحىم merciful

likewise see context 425 "females only" is always "hunna"

425 ومن and who لم not ىستطع is able منكم among you طولا abundance of ان that ىنكح married المحصنت those fortified (f/p) المومنت the believers (f/p) فمن so from ما ma/what ملكت possess اىمنكم right hands yours من from فتىتكم maidens yours المومنت the believers (f/p) والله and the god اعلم knows باىمنكم in faith yours بعضكم some you من from بعض some (others) فانكحوهن fa-inkihuhunna/so betroths ye them (feminine pl.) باذن by permission اهلهن family theirs (f/p) واتوهن waatuhunna/and gives ye them (feminine pl.) اجورهن ujurahunna/rewards theirs (f/p)...

Anoushirvan

"hum" in the entire book refers to males or males and females NEVER to females only "hunna"

2433 includes males and females mma NOT females only

fakatibuhum/so write ye them (masculine pl.) -- males and females
waatuhum/and gives ye them (masculine pl.) -- males and females
NOT
waatuhunna/and gives ye them (feminine pl.) -- females only

No.

Noon_waalqalami

No.

peace.

Mahdi20

Peace tilihawa

Thanks for your great explain peace