Islam/Christianity/Judaism - Miracles - Questions

[Jafar]

Therefor I will be asking few questions which are so called miracles mentioned in different holy books. I want to believe but I need to make sure that I start with a blank slate and move forward.

Starting with a blank slate it's a good start..

I recommend to step back and ask yourselves, whether all of the ideas/miracles that you stated, which I concur doesn't make any sense, is really important at all?
Given to the fact that all of the supposed events happened centuries ago .

Why then

• Even 'believe' or 'not believe' matters?
• Why somebody viewed it as very important to believe?

For example

• Why believing or not believing in people that we never met (ie Jesus. Mohammed) really matters?
• Why religion(s) see it as very important?
• Specifically for Mr Mo, did he really asked everyone to testify that he's a prophet?
• Why believing or not believe in a book compiled by a Caliph really matters?
  etc..

Ponder on the foundational level of religion, because truly for those with a blank slate of mind, most of it, if not all, doesn't make sense at all.

[Fusion]

did all human beings start with the lifespan of nearly 1000 years? Which was being reduced every generation because of their sins? Until God decided that human beings will not become older then 120 in general?
It shows that God can create both with a systematic way (evolution) and create from nothing ?

Good evening, Thank you for your expanation.I like to ask why would god reduce the age of humans because of their sins? Can you provide some references ?

Regards

[Fusion]

Thanks a lot for sharing your thoughts.I admire your the trust you have and hope to be near to the level you already achieved.

Regards

Sorry if this doesn't answer your question, because it is very difficult to answer a question if we are not on the same page. I just want to share my point of view.

Peace

[Fusion]

Starting with a blank slate it's a good start..

I recommend to step back and ask yourselves, whether all of the ideas/miracles that you stated, which I concur doesn't make any sense, is really important at all?
Given to the fact that all of the supposed events happened centuries ago .

Why then

• Even 'believe' or 'not believe' matters?
• Why somebody viewed it as very important to believe?

For example

• Why believing or not believing in people that we never met (ie Jesus. Mohammed) really matters?
• Why religion(s) see it as very important?
• Specifically for Mr Mo, did he really asked everyone to testify that he's a prophet?
• Why believing or not believe in a book compiled by a Caliph really matters?
  etc..

Ponder on the foundational level of religion, because truly for those with a blank slate of mind, most of it, if not all, doesn't make sense at all.

You have made some strong stataments, may I ask what did you conclude after your own research ? Is there no sense of accountability in this life? If yes then we should learn from past? else just live the moment..and do not seek the knowledge..

Thanks

[Jafar]

You have made some strong stataments, may I ask what did you conclude after your own research ? Is there no sense of accountability in this life? If yes then we should learn from past? else just live the moment..and do not seek the knowledge..

I actually do not like to give conclusion, as conclusions varied depending on one's perspective.

But since you've asked, my conclusion as of now is that only The Infinite exist others than The Infinite (Thus finite or has limit/border) actually doesn't exist and merely a temporary illusion.

If you mapped the word "God" in understanding as "Infinite" then the word "God Alone" means "Only God alone exist".

That's the 'conclusion'.
Everything else is based on it as foundational understanding.

Now I will attempt to answer your question.

Q Is there any sense of accountability in this life?
This "life" is temporary, has a beginning and an end, thus the same thing also apply to "A temporal physical identity that you assume in this instance of life" and also the context of "life" itself, commonly known as "The Universe".

In this universe (which is merely one among many) there's a set of law.
Among those law are the "Law of Action".
What you do will be returned back to you, whatever it is.
The popular term is "What goes around comes around to you".

Some say it's a mechanism of "reward and punishment" while I view it as mechanism of "teaching".
Through it one will learn to differentiate between "Nice" and "Not Nice", "Pleasant" and "Not Pleasant", "Acceptable" and "Not Acceptable" etc..
As every 'thing' in this universe are available in opposite polarities. The IS and the NOT IS.

Q We should learn from past?
The past can explain the state of now, the past can potentially indicate what will happened in the future as there are recurring patterns.
Whether you want to learn about it or not it's up to you.

But in 'concluding reality' even time is temporal and doesn't actually exist but merely a part of the illusion. In such view every events actually happened at the same time.

Q Just live the moment and do not seek the knowledge
Living the moment is a good advice, when one can stay in the present, he/she will not have any worry about the future or any burden of the past. As any 'issue' that one encounter most definitely reside in the future or in the past.

As for 'do not seek the knowledge' or 'seek the knowledge' it's an option that one can choose. Seeking knowledge is a privilege, among the thing that you can definitely do in this (temporal) universe. Through exposure to both "IS" and "NOT IS" you will gain knowledge and able to differentiate the border that separated both 'conception' (whatever it is).

Yet as mentioned above, even the separation is also part of the illusion.

[Fusion]

d
ddd

I actually do not like to give conclusion, as conclusions varied depending on one's perspective.

But since you've asked, my conclusion as of now is that only The Infinite exist others than The Infinite (Thus finite or has limit/border) actually doesn't exist and merely a temporary illusion.

If you mapped the word "God" in understanding as "Infinite" then the word "God Alone" means "Only God alone exist".

That's the 'conclusion'.
Everything else is based on it as foundational understanding.

Now I will attempt to answer your question.

Q Is there any sense of accountability in this life?
This "life" is temporary, has a beginning and an end, thus the same thing also apply to "A temporal physical identity that you assume in this instance of life" and also the context of "life" itself, commonly known as "The Universe".

In this universe (which is merely one among many) there's a set of law.
Among those law are the "Law of Action".
What you do will be returned back to you, whatever it is.
The popular term is "What goes around comes around to you".

Some say it's a mechanism of "reward and punishment" while I view it as mechanism of "teaching".
Through it one will learn to differentiate between "Nice" and "Not Nice", "Pleasant" and "Not Pleasant", "Acceptable" and "Not Acceptable" etc..
As every 'thing' in this universe are available in opposite polarities. The IS and the NOT IS.

Q We should learn from past?
The past can explain the state of now, the past can potentially indicate what will happened in the future as there are recurring patterns.
Whether you want to learn about it or not it's up to you.

But in 'concluding reality' even time is temporal and doesn't actually exist but merely a part of the illusion. In such view every events actually happened at the same time.

Q Just live the moment and do not seek the knowledge
Living the moment is a good advice, when one can stay in the present, he/she will not have any worry about the future or any burden of the past. As any 'issue' that one encounter most definitely reside in the future or in the past.

As for 'do not seek the knowledge' or 'seek the knowledge' it's an option that one can choose. Seeking knowledge is a privilege, among the thing that you can definitely do in this (temporal) universe. Through exposure to both "IS" and "NOT IS" you will gain knowledge and able to differentiate the border that separated both 'conception' (whatever it is).

Yet as mentioned above, even the separation is also part of the illusion.

Many thanks for your message. Appreciate it.

[Fusion]

Dear All,

I just came upon a verse in Quran and would like to get some guidance from your understanding.
As you know I have started this thread by saying the God has put into motion this world and universe and once created, it has to follow His laws, one of them is child is born out of the process which Quran has explained very well (mating between man and woman).

Yes indeed at the beginning, God is all powerful but once he has created everything it is following rules and hence I said that Jesus could not have been born defying the rule, not that God is not capable.

Please note this verse

6101
the Originator of the heavens and the earth! How could it be that He should have a child without there ever having been a mate for Him - since it is He who has created everything, and He alone knows everything?

My point is that God is explaining to the people that even if he had a son how can it be without a second party meaning this is how he has set inmotion the affairs of this life.

So I am not sure why God after saying above will bring Jesus without a father very much when civilisation has already been established and the rules of creation are clear. Please advise

Ofcourse God is most powerful and can do anything but I believe we cant just use this statement to explain every seemingly miraculous phenomenon because we know that everything he created is following rules of creation and he himself is making sure that physical laws in every sense is intact until the last day.

Added
Please folks note that I am not hell bent to prove any point here, am merely questioning what I feel to be cleared and have peace of mind because am sure you guys are all so much experience into this forum and can clarify my confusion.

For example see the verses
There did Zakariya pray to his Lord, saying "O my Lord! Grant unto me from Thee a progeny that is pure for Thou art He that heareth prayer! - 338
While he was standing in prayer in the chamber, the angels called unto him "(Allah) doth give thee glad tidings of Yahya, witnessing the truth of a Word from Allah, and (be besides) noble, chaste, and a prophet,- of the (goodly) company of the righteous." - 339
He said "O my lord! How shall I have a son seeing I am very old and my wife is barren?" "Thus" was the answer "doth Allah accomplish whatt He willeth."
Until now, if we were to believe that God will accomplish what he wants in a miraculous way then we would think some miracle would have happened that a barren woman would be able to give birth and do not question anything.
However look at the below verse which suggests the way that the wife was cured, how we do not know but it imples that after cure, they mate and have a child thereafter.

So We listened to him and We granted him Yahya We cured his wife's (Barrenness) for him. These (three) were ever quick in emulation in good works; they used to call on Us with love and reverence, and humble themselves before Us. - 2190

I hope am able to explain my confusion well into that perhaps the belief of christians (trinity) and jesus born without father is carried into muslims by misunderstaing of the verses where God is powerful over all affairs .. ...and we also believe into the same understanding..
perhaps Jesus was born as normal, because Marry at that time rightly said how can there be a child when she is not touched but the actual intent of the angel must have been that it will happen as per Gods rule... I do not know... pls try to clear my confusion inthe context of verses I explained.

Regards

[Jafar]

Dear All,

I just came upon a verse in Quran and would like to get some guidance from your understanding.
As you know I have started this thread by saying the God has put into motion this world and universe and once created, it has to follow His laws, one of them is child is born out of the process which Quran has explained very well (mating between man and woman).

Yes indeed at the beginning, God is all powerful but once he has created everything it is following rules and hence I said that Jesus could not have been born defying the rule, not that God is not capable.

I'm assuming by God here you mean "The Infinite" and not some kind of deity.

This universe, let's call it physical universe is just one among many universes, where each has it's own context. In this universe it's called "space and time" context.
Think of universe like a 'stage' for a movie or a novel.
There are many universes in similar manner like there are many movies and many novels, each has it's own 'stage' and 'context'.
You can also see a 'universe' like a 'virtual reality world' in games, there are many worlds just like there are many games,

In this universe there are trillion of galaxies, where each galaxy has billion of stars.
So the "VR world" is massive, much more massive than any 'world' inside currently available games.

Sorry to say that a species called human is not the only species in this 'VR world'.
And the same thing goes for their planet which they call Earth. It's not the only 'terrain' that's available in this "VR World".

Infact, the species called human only exist <1 % of the time of the entire lifespan of this "VR world".
Thus surely, human is NOT the center of this universe, it's not the only being on this universe, it just one among many.

As metaphor, imagine playing an RPG game where you can choose to be 'human' as an option from selection of millions or billions of other beings available in the game.

Yes there are common game rules / laws which govern the RPG game.
And the rules / law is consistent throughout the game.
Whether the player believe or not believe in the rules, doesn't really matter.
The rule is automatically enforced in the game, no need for any sharia police or even a caliphate.

An example of such law is law of gravity, whether one believe or not believe in gravity doesn't matter it's enforced to all. Whether it's on earth, on any other planet in Milky Way galaxy or even in other galaxies. As long as it's still within the same universe, it's the same law.

Since we've used the metaphor of "VR Game", then the question will be where is it's Creator?
We can say that the creator is both inside the game and also outside the game.
Since actually the 'game' reside within the Creator to begin with.
Just like the game reside within the mind of it's programmer.
And also due to the nature that the Creator is infinite, which means has no border at all.

I deliberately start with the above explanation with main point that the matter of how a character named "Jesus" was born is actually very small / tiny in comparation to the overall context this universe and not important at all. But nonetheless let's zoomed in into his story since you asked about it.
Jesus life story does contains a valuable lesson.

Yes a carbon based species called human need 23 pair of chromosomes acting as a blueprint for the cells to multiply and generate proper physical form within the VR game. To simplify some part of those chromosome, let's call it X contributed by the female mother while the Y from the male father.
And there's a specific chromosome that will determine the gender of the human, if it happened to be XY then it will be a male, if it happened to be XX then it will be a female.

Since Jesus was a male human then definitely he has a human father.
The male human which contribute his Y chromosome that resulted in a male baby.
And if you read the Gospel according to Matthew, the author even clearly list the lineage of this Jesus, where it's stated that Joseph is the father of Jesus. This Joseph happened to be the husband of Mary, Jesus's mom.

It's told that Joseph never had any sex with Mary before Mary got pregnant.
According to the story Joseph was already betrothed to Mary but not yet had the chance to have sex with her, but he found her already pregnant.
There's no means to prove or disprove such story, so for the sake of discussion let's say that it's true.
Nonetheless, I admire Joseph for his sense of responsibility for taking care of Mary and her baby.

Getting pregnant without any sexual intercourse is hardly a miracle nowadays isn't it?
There's something called "external fertilization",
Where the eggs from the female human is inseminated with sperm from the male human outside of the womb.

So who did such procedure 2000 years ago to Joseph and Mary?
Nobody knows for sure, some advanced alien perhaps... it's left for speculation.
And what's the purpose?
It's left for speculation as well.

Suffice to say that after Jesus, Joseph and Mary is told to have more children, yes Jesus had little brothers and sisters. Among those who are also well known is James.

Although the 'christian authority' refused to acknowledge James as biological brother of Jesus, weird isn't it? I wonder why...

Nonetheless, there are story James continues the torch of struggle after his older brother's mission got abrupt end, sentenced to death by Jewish Council of Ulema. Although he eventually survived the ordeal. But James was not so lucky, he was eventually stoned to death by Jewish Council of Ulema and there's no story that he survived the stoning.

Nonetheless it shows the brutal aspect of religion, which we still somehow witness up until today.

I view the life story of Jesus, his cousin John and his brother James as a (peaceful) struggle against an brutally oppressing religion and authority. Which set forth an example on how the servant of light should act in the struggle against the servant of darkness.

And that's what matter... and not how Jesus was born and/or died.

[Fusion]

I'm assuming by God here you mean "The Infinite" and not some kind of deity.

This universe, let's call it physical universe is just one among many universes, where each has it's own context. In this universe it's called "space and time" context.
Think of universe like a 'stage' for a movie or a novel.
There are many universes in similar manner like there are many movies and many novels, each has it's own 'stage' and 'context'.
You can also see a 'universe' like a 'virtual reality world' in games, there are many worlds just like there are many games,

In this universe there are trillion of galaxies, where each galaxy has billion of stars.
So the "VR world" is massive, much more massive than any 'world' inside currently available games.

Sorry to say that a species called human is not the only species in this 'VR world'.
And the same thing goes for their planet which they call Earth. It's not the only 'terrain' that's available in this "VR World".

Infact, the species called human only exist <1 % of the time of the entire lifespan of this "VR world".
Thus surely, human is NOT the center of this universe, it's not the only being on this universe, it just one among many.

As metaphor, imagine playing an RPG game where you can choose to be 'human' as an option from selection of millions or billions of other beings available in the game.

Yes there are common game rules / laws which govern the RPG game.
And the rules / law is consistent throughout the game.
Whether the player believe or not believe in the rules, doesn't really matter.
The rule is automatically enforced in the game, no need for any sharia police or even a caliphate.

An example of such law is law of gravity, whether one believe or not believe in gravity doesn't matter it's enforced to all. Whether it's on earth, on any other planet in Milky Way galaxy or even in other galaxies. As long as it's still within the same universe, it's the same law.

Since we've used the metaphor of "VR Game", then the question will be where is it's Creator?
We can say that the creator is both inside the game and also outside the game.
Since actually the 'game' reside within the Creator to begin with.
Just like the game reside within the mind of it's programmer.
And also due to the nature that the Creator is infinite, which means has no border at all.

I deliberately start with the above explanation with main point that the matter of how a character named "Jesus" was born is actually very small / tiny in comparation to the overall context this universe and not important at all. But nonetheless let's zoomed in into his story since you asked about it.
Jesus life story does contains a valuable lesson.

Yes a carbon based species called human need 23 pair of chromosomes acting as a blueprint for the cells to multiply and generate proper physical form within the VR game. To simplify some part of those chromosome, let's call it X contributed by the female mother while the Y from the male father.
And there's a specific chromosome that will determine the gender of the human, if it happened to be XY then it will be a male, if it happened to be XX then it will be a female.

Since Jesus was a male human then definitely he has a human father.
The male human which contribute his Y chromosome that resulted in a male baby.
And if you read the Gospel according to Matthew, the author even clearly list the lineage of this Jesus, where it's stated that Joseph is the father of Jesus. This Joseph happened to be the husband of Mary, Jesus's mom.

It's told that Joseph never had any sex with Mary before Mary got pregnant.
According to the story Joseph was already betrothed to Mary but not yet had the chance to have sex with her, but he found her already pregnant.
There's no means to prove or disprove such story, so for the sake of discussion let's say that it's true.
Nonetheless, I admire Joseph for his sense of responsibility for taking care of Mary and her baby.

Getting pregnant without any sexual intercourse is hardly a miracle nowadays isn't it?
There's something called "external fertilization",
Where the eggs from the female human is inseminated with sperm from the male human outside of the womb.

So who did such procedure 2000 years ago to Joseph and Mary?
Nobody knows for sure, some advanced alien perhaps... it's left for speculation.
And what's the purpose?
It's left for speculation as well.

Suffice to say that after Jesus, Joseph and Mary is told to have more children, yes Jesus had little brothers and sisters. Among those who are also well known is James.

Although the 'christian authority' refused to acknowledge James as biological brother of Jesus, weird isn't it? I wonder why...

Nonetheless, there are story James continues the torch of struggle after his older brother's mission got abrupt end, sentenced to death by Jewish Council of Ulema. Although he eventually survived the ordeal. But James was not so lucky, he was eventually stoned to death by Jewish Council of Ulema and there's no story that he survived the stoning.

Nonetheless it shows the brutal aspect of religion, which we still somehow witness up until today.

I view the life story of Jesus, his cousin John and his brother James as a (peaceful) struggle against an brutally oppressing religion and authority. Which set forth an example on how the servant of light should act in the struggle against the servant of darkness.

And that's what matter... and not how Jesus was born and/or died.

Hello Jafar, certainly an interesting view and reply which I was not expecting but it is quite unique explanation. I shall wait for others to reply in more traditional approach if possible.

Coming back to your expanation, I like to ask few more clarifications or observations upon your statement.

You said "Thus surely, human is NOT the center of this universe, it's not the only being on this universe, it just one among many.". If it is not the case then Why God (of the infinite as you mentioned) allowed/ entusted Human with such a big responsibility in all over the universe?

“Truly, We did offer al-amaanah (the trust or moral responsibility or honesty and all the duties which Allah has ordained) to the heavens and the earth, and the mountains, but they declined to bear it and were afraid of it (i.e. afraid of Allah’s torment). But man bore it. Verily, he was unjust (to himself) and ignorant (of its results) ”.

Also I dout the technology of external fertilization exists in Jesus time or perhaps works aliens being , alients which is stilla theory not proven? Do you have any reference or is it only speculation of what could have happened?

regards

[Jafar]

You said "Thus surely, human is NOT the center of this universe, it's not the only being on this universe, it just one among many.". If it is not the case then Why God (of the infinite as you mentioned) allowed/ entusted Human with such a big responsibility in all over the universe?

As mentioned, human species is not the only living being on this entire universe.
Just one among possibly billions or even trillions as there are quadrillions of stars.

Even on planet earth, in the majority of earth existence; this species called human did not even exist.
The lifetime of planet earth far exceeds the lifetime of a species, any species.

Human might become extinct in the future, and planet earth will still be fine.
Human might become extinct in the future, and the sun will still be fine.
Human might become extinct in the future, and the universe will still be fine.

This is where fact doesn't match religion's conception.
Human's religion always try to positioned that this entire universe was made only for human.
Where the reality doesn't support such conception.

As of now; human does not even know how many stars and planets are there in this universe.
Then how could human possible be responsible for the entire universe?
Hellloo??

I awaited the day when human finally meet other non earth sentient carbon based lifeform.
Where human will foolishly asked
"Why did you exist? Did your ancestor ate forbidden fruit too? Thus God is angry with you?"