What do y'all think of 42:16?, "And those who argue concerning Allah..."
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No, arguing is not criticized here, those who defend false beliefs and shirk are criticized. In short, those who defend their pagan beliefs without evidence and those who adopt these false beliefs are criticized. For example, those who adopt the belief of trinity or pantheism...
Peace
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@ Iyyaka
Hmm, now that you mention it, the previous ayat does say this, pickthall translation
"4215, Unto this, then, summon (O Muhammad). And be thou upright as thou art commanded, and follow not their lusts, but say I believe in whatever scripture Allah hath sent down, and I am commanded to be just among you. Allah is our Lord and your Lord. Unto us our works and unto you your works; no argument between us and you. Allah will bring us together, and unto Him is the journeying."the word "argument" here, is Hjj, same as the one used in the original verse.
Maybe that's a clue but I still don't know what's up.
@Emre_1974tr
I do agree that it would be strange for God to criticize arguments in the Qur'an but how can we be so sure? I mean, I appreciate your reply but from a Quranic perspective how can be we sure?tbh I'm still rather confused, so if anyone has any ideas & thoughts, please share!
Peace out and God bless both of you!
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@Emre_1974tr
I do agree that it would be strange for God to criticize arguments in the Qur'an but how can we be so sure? I mean, I appreciate your reply but from a Quranic perspective how can be we sure?tbh I'm still rather confused, so if anyone has any ideas & thoughts, please share!
Peace out and God bless both of you!
When you read the whole book in its entirety, you will see this very easily. It may not be enough to just read the paragraph in its entirety, always evaluate the entire book together.
Questioning and arguing is never prohibited in the Qur'an. On the contrary, it is desired to reach real knowledge based on reason and proof. What is prohibited here is not argue. To believe in superstitions prohibited here is to have pagan beliefs.
Peace
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@Emre_1974tr, well, yes I do agree, but Idk.
if someone who rags on islam, and claims it doesn't allow arguing, and points to this verse as an example, what are some verses that support arguing? I know there's verses on reflection and intelligence, but are there any on arguing in the traditional sense?
And also I feel like we shouldn't just dismiss this ayat, especially due to the consequences, you claim that "What is prohibited here is not argue. To believe in superstitions prohibited here is to have pagan beliefs. ", but I don't see anything about pagan beliefs mentioned here?Don't get me wrong, I do really believe that this surface-level interpretation of "arguments in religion are forbidden" is wrong, I just find it difficult A). proving that it's wrong using other ayats and B). seeing what other interpertations there are
Peace and God Bless!
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@Emre_1974tr, well, yes I do agree, but Idk.
if someone who rags on islam, and claims it doesn't allow arguing, and points to this verse as an example, what are some verses that support arguing? I know there's verses on reflection and intelligence, but are there any on arguing in the traditional sense?
And also I feel like we shouldn't just dismiss this ayat, especially due to the consequences, you claim that "What is prohibited here is not argue. To believe in superstitions prohibited here is to have pagan beliefs. ", but I don't see anything about pagan beliefs mentioned here?Don't get me wrong, I do really believe that this surface-level interpretation of "arguments in religion are forbidden" is wrong, I just find it difficult A). proving that it's wrong using other ayats and B). seeing what other interpertations there are
Peace and God Bless!
If you read the Qur'an in its entirety once, you would know that it is talking about pagans, who slander Allah. But either you did not read the book or you knowingly slander Allah and His verses.
What is called arguing here is insisting on the false belief, namely the pagan belief. What is criticized here is not to give up on superstitions despite the proofs.
That's why the pagan stands up and continues to defend his false belief.
The explanation here is very clear and simple. That person insists on his superstitions and does not accept the evidence. He continues to remain in the belief of Shirk.
Peace
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Thank you for your response!
I know that the Qur'an does mention pagans in a negative light, and I know that especially it mentions them arguing with false arguments, more or less, and claims this in a negative light .
I'm just saying in this specific verse and this specific surah, how can we be sure that this is talking exclusively about the pagans?Just as when the Qur'an states to not kill the soul which God has forbidden , and we understand it to not just be to the pagans, how can we be sure about the same thing here?
In other words I'm asking if you have some ayats which can prove that this is either restricted to the pagans, or this that arguing is encouraged for the non-pagans.
And listen dude I hope you don't think that I'm malicious or that I'm trying to get a "gotcha" moment, I just stumbled upon this verse, and I would like to understand it as such that if someone were to ask me what it means that I can explain concisely, not just saying "it's for pagans only" and leave it at that.
Thanks for responding man, really appreciate it, looking forward to hearing your response back!
Praise be to God, God bless, and peace out! -
As I said;
1- If you read the book in its entirety, you will see this truth.
2- If you don't have time to read the book, just read the paragraph you gave in its entirety, and even that will be enough for you to see the truth.
Holy Quran
4214 And they only divided after the knowledge had come to them, due to resentment among themselves. And had it not been for a predetermined decision from your Lord, they would have been judged immediately. Indeed, those who inherited the Book after them are full of doubts.
4215 For that, you shall preach and be upright, as you have been commanded, and do not follow their wishes. And say "I believe in all that God has sent down as a Book, and I was commanded to be with justice between you. God is our Lord and your Lord. We have our deeds and you have your deeds. There is no argument between us and you. God will gather us all together, and to Him is the ultimate destiny."
4216 And those who debate about God, after they had been answered, their argument is nullified at their Lord. They have incurred a wrath, and will have a severe retribution.
4217 God is the One who sent down the Book with the truth, and the balance. And for all that you know, the Hour may be very near.
4218 Those who do not believe in it seek to hasten it, while those who believe are concerned about it, and they know that it is the truth. Certainly, those who dispute the Hour have gone far astray.
Look, when you read the paragraph in its entirety, it is easy to see that the deniers are criticized for insisting on their denial. So it's not about arguing. Or it's not about exchanging ideas here. The issue here is that the deniers continue their denial. pagans do not give up their pagan beliefs. In other words, insisting on the wrong is criticized, not arguing here. Not believing the truth despite the evidence is criticized.
Peace
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@ Emre_1974tr
Thank you for the response!
Yes, I see now, I do think now that hopefully the original assumption of "does The Qur'an discourages arguing with this verse" is put to rest.
I do feel like some folks could still interpret it that way, it's unfortunately, at least in my mind, not 100% waterproof that it isn't, but honestly I do think the possibility is way lower now.
I appreciate your replies Emre! And also If anyone else has anything to say feel free to do so, while I don't think the interpretation of "all arguments are banned" is the most likely anymore, I do believe there may be a deeper interpretation, don't know what it could be, but yeah.Anyway God Bless you, Emre, and peace out!
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There are opposite polarities in everything, yet everything is one in nature.
Wrath, Revenge, Punishing, Torturing are among the characteristic of the negatives.
The opposites which are Calmness, Patience, Compassion, Love, Forgiveness, Comforting are among the characteristic of the positives.Both exist, and through it's characteristics one will know which is which.
Only the negatives expressed wrath towards others, positives doesn't do that, even towards the negatives. If you're curious why positives doesn't do that, I can tell you why, but I prefer you inquire and seek it yourselves first, so you will not believe but know.
Both exist as in a path, where the end destination is the same, as there is only one destination in the end.
Choose your path... wisely.
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Rather ominous...
I suppose you're implying that Allah swt in the Qur'an is, God forbid, one of these negatives?I mean, I'll admit that the whole "Hell", "Wrath", "Evil in the world" stuff present in the Qur'an, is probably one of the biggest questions/non-understandings I have, and I.. unfortunately don't have an answer yet.
But nonetheless I trust in and believe in God, and I hope He shall Guide me to the right path.
You might be asking how does that transfer over to believing in The Holy Qur'an well, I suppose the original reason would be because I was born into it, but I don't think that's the only reason I continue to believe in it...
The Qur'an frequently says that the messenger was sent to bring good tidings, and to give warnings . There are a few times when it is said to the messenger to bring tidings of a punishement too , so there's that as well.
But the Qur'an makes clear that The Qur'an is sent to give warnings (very interesting..), warnings, cautions, etc.] , and to give good tidings to the believers , as well as guidance, healing, and a mercy .Now that I got that out of the way, here's my point.
The guidance, mercy and healing is subjective, and being honest I did find those things in the Qur'an personally but I can't guarantee everyone will.
But I want to focus on the other two main things.The good tidings... Life can be a bit unfortunate times, but to know that death is not the end, that there will be justice in the end, and that the earth and heavens weren't made in vain, it definitely is good tidings, and so I agree, I do believe the Qur'an does definitely give good tidings to folks who read it.
The warnings... now either the warnings are malarkey, or they're not, the nature of warnings is to warn, to let folks now that something is coming and that they should be prepared.
And I do wish to heed this, I do wish to be prepared for these warnings. In the end if only God knows if these warnings are truthful or not, I do believe they are, so I will prepare, try to be a righteous, pious, doer of good believer, and upon God is the next existence.
But yes, I do believe the Qur'an does offer warnings too, whether you believe they're truthful or not,Now I know just because a book gives you warnings does not mean it's divine, that's not what I'm stating, I'm just saying that There's this book, the Qur'an, it talks about God, The Hereafter, The Meaning of Life, and the things do seem truthful, and it contains guidance and mercy, and it seems to contain the universal truth, things that seem natural in nature, more or less.
With this in mind, it also says that it contains warnings, and considering everything, I do wish to heed these warnings, to not be of the heedless.
Will other people from other religions go to Hell, suffering forever? I'll be honest I don't know, reading the Qur'an at times it does seem like it, but at other times it seems like there's hope.
All I can say it's up to God, if He Willed, He could punish us all, if He Willed, He could forgive us all, it's up to Him, and on that day the dominion will solely be His.TL;DR I understand that the whole "Evil and God" conundrum is unfortunate, it's one of my biggest questions/non-understandings and unfortunately I don't have an answer yet...
But I believe in and trust in God, in the Lord of the Worlds, and while I don't think I can really prove nor convince anyone at this moment to believe too, I believe in the Qur'an too because it's, I believe, sent by the Lord of the Worlds, it contains good tidings and warnings, the good tidings align with what I believe, so I will heed the warnings too.
That's about it.God bless you Jafar, thank you for your post, may God guide us both to the right path, and peace out!
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I suppose you're implying that Allah swt in the Qur'an is, God forbid, one of these negatives?
Both the IS and IS NOT are coming from the same source.
Because there is no other source to begin with.The next question is should be WHY?
Why the IS NOT exist?
It's to make the IS recognizable, without the opposing polarities the IS cannot be recognizable.How can you know light when everything is light and there's no darkness?
People in the cities travel to remote forest just to see the star light coming from the night sky.
As otherwise the light in the bright city will not make the light from the star recognizable.As mentioned, Wrath, Anger, Cursing, Fear, Punishment is among the IS NOT.
Yet it's opposite, calmness, peaceful, comforting, love, compassion and forgiveness are among the IS.Sometimes people named the IS NOT as negative because that's how they feel when those emotion occurs, it's not nice and comfortable. While the opposite (IS) is always comfortable and natural thus they label it as positive.
The IS NOT always exist alongside with IS, it's like a loyal opposition to the IS.
That's why you found many discrepancies within the work, both are presented so one will choose which thus makes the IS recognizable through the existence or backdrop of the IS NOT.There will always be those who felt attracted to the IS NOT and there will always be those who felt attracted to the IS, that's just the way it is. Both are coming from the same source and will eventually resolved back into the same source.
The IS understood this very well, that others are part of their own selves, that's why the IS will never express hatred, anger, wrath, torture or punishment towards others as they see others as part of their own selves, there's no desire to control others as they themselves do not like to be controlled against their own free will.
The IS NOT took the opposition, they see others as NOT part of their own selves (separation), thus they express desire to control others through fear, achievable through expression of anger, hatred, wrath and threat of torture, punishment, especially to others who refused to be controlled.
Both exist... choose which one is your position.. yet it will all resolved back to the same source.
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an interesting theory, it may actually be a solid explanation to the unfortunate things, both in the world and the unfortunate non-understandings of the Qur'an, props!
I think we agree too syeah, I too believe things will get returned to the same source, to the Lord of all Worlds.
only thing I don't get is your ending statement, "Both exist... choose which one is your position...", alright, how would I do that? It seems like you're implying if you believe that others are part of yourself then you're the IS if you believe otherwise you're the IS NOT, which I... disagree.
I don't believe others are myself nor do I believe myself are others.
I do believe that we're all humans? I do believe that we're all the creation of God? But I also believe that other people are responsible for their deeds, and I am responsible for mine.I don't think others should be held accountable for what I did nor others held accountable for what I did.
Plus even outside of accountability, I don't think others and I share the same... being, I guess?
Plus I also don't 100% see your logic, if the IS sees others as part of their own selves, then when the others don't listen, wouldn't the IS get mad too? Like compare it to your arm all of a sudden going limp or even going against what you want to do, even though it's a part of you you'd still get frustrated, no?
I do think I misunderstood you on the last point though, and honestly overall I do think we agree on a few things? But I'm not sure.
Anyway thank you for your reply Jafar, I appreciate it.
God bless you, may God guide us both to the right path, and peace out! -
I do believe that we're all humans? I do believe that we're all the creation of God? But I also believe that other people are responsible for their deeds, and I am responsible for mine.
Are you sure?
Where was "I" few years before that figure that you see in the mirror was born?I'm certainly not only jafar, I exist even before jafar exist.
And I will continue to exist even when jafar no longer exist.I don't think others should be held accountable for what I did nor others held accountable for what I did.
Plus I also don't 100% see your logic, if the IS sees others as part of their own selves, then when the others don't listen, wouldn't the IS get mad too? Like compare it to your arm all of a sudden going limp or even going against what you want to do, even though it's a part of you you'd still get frustrated, no?
There's another way, if you don't think 'others' should be held accountable (in other words acceptance and forgiveness) then you will also not be held accountable and be accepted and forgiven.
Imagine you met yourself 10 years ago, will you have the same opinion or view with him?
Will you then 'judge' him of all of his doing or disagreement with you?
Or will you accepted him as he is?The same case of arm going limp.
Arm or even any part of the body will all be disabled one day anyway.
Will you be angry with it?
Or you will accept it as it is?
And can even laughed or be happy with it?Since your nick indicate that you're a gamer, I will then use a gaming metaphor.
You're aware of "Gamer Rage" don't you?
What do you think causes it?I do think I misunderstood you on the last point though, and honestly overall I do think we agree on a few things?
There's no need to agree on all points, as mentioned you will not even agree with you 10 years ago?
But you will accept "you 10 years ago" nonetheless? And will not judge "you"?
Or you will judge "10 years ago you"?
And punish "10 years ago you" for all he did?Control is the keyword here, and it's among the key characteristic of the "IS NOT".
"IS NOT" have desire to control others through any means necessary.
That's why the "IS NOT" resorted to fear, threat, punishment etc..God bless you, may God guide us both to the right path, and peace out!
God blesses everything, that's a given state.
There is the "IS" and "IS NOT" path yet all will arrived at the same destination in the end.
Because there is no other destination to begin with. -
Brother Jafar.
Do you mind if I ask you do one simple thing? Devote some time and reflection to God, your creator, in pairs -with someone who has your philosophy- or as individual in private,, then reflect.
Your friend good logic is helping you , just before the advent of a terrible judgement day."
"You have a specific time, on a specific day, that you cannot delay by one hour, nor advance."
"You will not be responsible for anyone s crimes/, nor will they be responsible for what you do."
"Our Lord will gather us all together before Him, then He will judge between us equitably. He is the Judge, the Omniscient."Please reflect, before you, or others say "We will not believe in this Qoran, nor in the previous scriptures." If you could only envision these people when they stand before their Lord! They will argue with one another back and forth. The followers will tell their leaders, "If it were not for you, we would have been believers.
The leaders will say to those who followed them, "Are we the ones who diverted you from the guidance after it came to you? No; it is you who were wicked."Reflect on why the majority of humans consistently challenge GOD s revelations. On the day when He summons them all, They will answer, "Be You glorified. You are our Lord and Master. But it will be too late!
GOD will reply"When our revelation/scriptures were recited to you, perfectly clear, you said, "This is simply a man who wants to divert you from the way your parents/leaders are following." You also said, "These are fabricated lies." Those who disbelieved also said about the truth that came to them, "This is obviously man made magic/tales."Brother,GOD is not going to give you or them any other books to study, nor is He going to send to you or them another warner. Qoran is already here for you and them to study . Give it a go.
Yes, reflect some more "My Lord causes the truth to prevail. He is the Knower of all secrets."
"The truth has come; while falsehood can neither initiate anything, nor repeat it."
So, we will have to wait, the truth will unfold on that day.
GOD bless you
Peace -
Do you mind if I ask you do one simple thing? Devote some time and reflection to God, your creator, in pairs -with someone who has your philosophy- or as individual in private,, then reflect.
Your friend good logic is helping you , just before the advent of a terrible judgement day."Thank you for your help good logic.
Yes I met our source every millisecond.
So I don't fear our source at all, otherwise I will spent every millisecond in fear.And I might offer you an advice, do not judge so you will not be judged.
Accept and forgive so you will also be accepted and forgiven.
Stop spreading fear, so you shall experience no fear as well.
You can transmute the fear to become courage as that's what fear are made for.
Thus one can recognize it's opposite, courage.Remember good logic and jafar do not actually exist, they're merely illusionary identity playing roles and having different perspective. Just like jafar can found it's source within and so does good logic.
Look inside yourself and see...
Ask and it shall be answered.
Don't believe but seek so you will know.Mind you although we don't have a common view I do not hate you at all or consider you as my enemy. Both of us have an opposing view, yes that's true, but as mentioned above, we are merely illusionary identity playing roles. Both opposing view need to exist thus it can be recognized.
That's the reason I never returned any threat with threat, any fear with fear.
Both of us are always blessed and loved by our source, whatever position, view or path we took. -
Peace Jafar,
I am sorry you are taking my advice of reflection as a threat and fear!
Or is accountability to our creator something to be afraid of?
Or is the study of Qoran something to be afraid of?
Of course you can relax brother, I am no threat to you or anyone.You are passing your message and I am inviting to my Lord and your Lord ,the Lord of the universe.
I am sure you agree with me that we are both entitled to that.
GOD bless you
Peace. -
Peace Jafar,
I am sorry you are taking my advice of reflection as a threat and fear!
Or is accountability to our creator something to be afraid of?
Or is the study of Qoran something to be afraid of?
Of course you can relax brother, I am no threat to you or anyone.Dear good logic
I'm relax and always is.. it's my advice to you as it seems you're stricken with fear. Fear of being judged.
Everything in this universe is available in opposite pair the IS and IS NOT.
Judging has it's opposite, NOT JUDGING, we call it as Accepting/Understanding/LovingI do not fear the source, as mentioned I met the source every millisecond, every shortest interval of time. Actually you and everything else also met the source every shortest interval of time.
There is never any occassion that one never met the source.
God is not here but over there, it's within you, within everything.
Thus does not require an event of physical death to meet God.That is also the reason why what goes around comes around.
When you're not judging others you will definitely will not be judged.
When you have no desire to punish others you will definitely will not be punished.
When you accept others as it is, you will also be accepted as it is.
The opposite is also true.
When you judge others then definitely you will also be judged etc..That's why it's up to you on what you want to believe.
What you believe will definitely will be realized.So which one that you prefer?
Being Judged? Or Being Accepted as You Are?
Choose one as it will be definitely be manifested for you.As for me, I've chosen the later, I prefer to be accepted as I am.
And that's the reason why I accept everything / everyone as they are.And no need to worry as there's no deadline, not even the event of physical death.
Even when you choose the others, (being judged) and then you realized that you don't like it at all, then you can switch to the other options anytime, you can do that by stop judging and just accepting everything as they are..
As mentioned both IS and IS NOT need to exist in order to be recognized.There's a wonderful metaphor told by Jesus on this case, he uses a metaphor of a son who left his father house to live a wasteful life, and when he finally realized his mistake and returned home his father happily accept him regardless of what he did.
That is a metaphor of unconditional love, the highest form of love.
As the father will always see his son as part of himself.Yet in any case feel free to choose, the IS (Loving and Accepting) or the IS NOT (Judging/Punishing). Both will lead to the same destination in any case.
As everything/everyone will eventually return to the father's house.
And the door to the father's house is always open. -
Jafar,
How do you know if I am IS or IS NOT? Or are you also judging like you are assuming I am judging?
It seems you are taking views and opinions as judgement!!
Do you see the irony?
Or is anyone judging if they do not agree with you?
Think about your logic brother.
GOD bless you .
Peace. -
Salam lads
@Jafar I don't think I'll go line by line on your comments, but I will say I do think your ideas are interesting, I do think your ideas might actually have some truth.
I will say a few things though...-
with "humans" I meant souls, I do believe that humans aren't limited to just our bodies, as Adam pbuh was created with dirt, but had Ruh breathen into him.
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with the 10 years ago yourself analogy I do get what you're going for but folks, including myself, do judge their old selves. Usually when they look back they see themselves as cringy, or naive, or a number of other things.
But I do get what you're going for, I do think that's a solid outlook to have, not looking down at other people due to their actions and/or beliefs, but looking at them as one looks at one's younger self, a naive person who still has the chance to grow.
The Qur'an does warn of arrogance (3118, 1075, 3215), and I do think that which you said is legit good advice.
So yeah, maybe I misunderstood, but I do think we agree here... more or less... -
with the "arm going limp", I meant it moreso in a way where the arm acts against your needs, aka how some people treat other people poorly, if you look at other people as a part of YOU, and then that part of YOU harms you... what then?
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and your final point, I don't think I'll judge the "10 years ago" me, and I won't punish him either, and I have made some mistakes.
But at the same time, that's different, for the mistakes I have regretted and repented and I hope not to make the same mistake again, if God wills.
How do I say this... I don't know everything yet and I probably never will, but for now at least I do still believe that, if the "10 years ago" me did something drastic, like murder, and then I haven't repented nor regretted and the reason why I still don't do murder isn't because I've changed but because I'm not able to... well then, I don't really know.
I don't really know...
I suppose the only problem I have with your theory is that it seems a bit too idealistic, if there was a basis for it, a basis for "if you believe others won't be punished you won't be punished" in the Holy Qur'an or even another Holy Book if that's what you believe in, but it seems to be formed on a personal experience basis... which tbh might be the strongest basis a person can have, but at the same time yeah... no real basis, I guess.
I'll just suggest that you live your life as if there will be judgement, as if there will be accountability, we'll see in the end.
But I do appreciate your ideas, as well as your willingness to respond, thank you for your response and thank you for your kindness.
This probably will be, for the time at least , my last response for now.@good logic I think I agree with your points, one should reflect yeah.
Yeah well anyway that's about it, I will say if you good logic and jafar wanna continue the conversation I do think you should open up a new thread as this has gone a bit off-topic, not really related to 4216.
If anyone wants to say something on 4216 feel free to post.
But yeah anyway either way thank you guys for your responses, praise be to God, God bless you all , and peace! -
