is islam the ultimate form of communism
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Salaam dear Emil,
Thanks for your post. The freedom of speech, religion and individual success are also what I stand for. If you add political freedom, freedom of entrepreneurship, free market and less government action, you get liberalism.
Islam has the power to moralize capitalism, so we should use the excellent framework it offers us to change the societies in which we live.
Best regards,
Natashamina
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bravo how to increase the value of the Trabant = wait a few decades and sell it to a museum hmm - First of all let me say that I love the Quran and my family lives by it ..... inside out. The issue I am having is that mankind, from what I have seen in a Capitalist vs Communist/Socialist society is vastly different. There is no free market to speak of in Capitalism from what I have seen, so I think that this is the 'utopia' that is being attributed to Communism/Socialism. Agreed that the objectives are/were not achieved in either systems but I think that there was more advancement in Communism/Socialism. From what I have seen, the rich in Capitalism make the poor suffer way more than otherwise (more commercialized prostitution, child abuse, debt slavery, extreme slavery to the point where 'fair' slavery is considered by that society as a high rank!!??? I mean wtf, I went on a few trips to the States and people seem to be more poor, malnutrition, waaay less educated/enlightened etc than I have seen in 3rd world countries!!) It is like a whole nation of sheep farmed to buy and kept just healthy enough to keep buying and arrogant/proud of it to boot. Anyway, I understand that freedom is necessary but that it should not have too high a price. So i must agree that socialism is closer to Islam rather the fabricated jail they call capitalism - just my opinion which may be flawed as it was based on the limited knowledge I have.
fftopic I am new to this site but there seem to be many Muslims from communist/socialist backgrounds - is this because of the above arguement that you gravitated to Islam???
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Dear e30sequel
I think the reason why the 'utopia' is more clear to see in a communist/socialist community rather than a capitalistic is because communism/socialism is a economic AND political system while capitalism is an economic system only. In a community with a capitalistic system you can basically have all kinds of political models ranging from full democracy to full dictatorship (well not really, but you get the point).
So, like America where capitalists are in power of the political agenda...well, things go wrong....eventually. If the Soviet Union is extreme left then the US is its counterpart, none are to strive for IMO. There are however many countries who has found a "balance", Singapore is a good example of a capitalistic country with free market but with a socialistic mindset (ironic because preaching communistic views in S?pore will get your a#s thrown in jail)..... But to answer your question
I am new to this site but there seem to be many Muslims from communist/socialist backgrounds - is this because of the above arguement that you gravitated to Islam???
No, but being raised a "socialist" certainly makes me read the Quran differently than a "capitalist". IMHO I think a socialist is more likely to to group islam.
Islam has the power to moralize capitalism, so we should use the excellent framework it offers us to change the societies in which we live.
Excellent phrase bravo
http//verydemotivational.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/129169053672915750.jpg
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Right now I understand it that the Quran encourages Libertarianism. People shouldn't be forced to give charity and help those less in need, or else it wouldn't be a blessing for us when we do it out of the kindness of our hearts. When islamic states form, the citizens will choose to live in that state will pay taxes that go to the welfare of their citizens, so there will be a sort of socialism, but in the big picture they have the freedon to leave. There's nothing I've found in the Quran that discourages personal property and morally regulated captilism free trade etc.
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By the way, the person who said that the Arabs are the worst hypocrites hasn't translated the Koran conveniently. Al-A'r?b is translated "the bedouins". You don't make comments on the Koran unless you speak the Arabic language properly.
Wake up.. it has been discussed million of times..
It said what it said, it is written as it is written.. Al Arabu ashadu Kufran wa Nifaqa.. It doesn't say Al-Bedouins.. or "Al- Baddawi" it says Al Arabu..
It might not go well with 'personal taste' or 'specific agenda' of some people here...(such as you) but it is what it is..Salam / Peace
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The Muslims have conquered most of the ancient world within only a century, mostly because they had lower taxes from the Eastern Roman Empire and therefore became popular among the populations. When they conquered Syria, as explains Philip Hitti in his "History of the Arabs", people throw flowers to their feet.
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"Islam" or "Muslim" is not a political entity... the Quran told stories relating moslems of the past which encompass many culture and tongue, starting from Noah, the sumerian Abraham, The jewish Moses, David, Solomon and Jesus and many other 'unnamed' figures.
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The sarachens (Alliance of arabs, jews,egyptians and others within levant and its dessert surrounding) manage to do a massive invasion around the mediteranean area, which was hardly 'most of the ancient world'. The notions of 'moslems' conquered most of the ancient world sounds like a (political) propaganda to me.
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The history of the arabs were mostly written by the arabs. And specifically written to meet their taste. Just like any other history it contains many suspicious and strange stories.. the same feeling that I got when I'm reading any other 'propaganda materials'.. (i.e. The tibetans cheerfully welcomed the chinese red army upon 'liberation' from their capitalist rulers, that is according to the history as written by the chinese government and just recently we also read on how 'the iraqis cheerfully welcomed US troops for their liberation against tyrant' and destroyed the statue of Saddam Hussein...)
Even though it is most often believed that modern capitalism originated from the medieval Italian cities, Muslims were the first ones to invent cheques (al-s?q in Arabic) you could issue in today's Iraq and cash in today's Morocco.
The practice of 'free economy' was the basic fundamental and the most archaic form of economy ever known to human kind. You have wheat? Let's trade that with my sheep! no government involvement whatsoever, no intermediaries and we pay no taxes to anyone for this transaction..
As thus it was not the europeans who 'invented capitalism' and/or 'free economy'.. yet it was the europeans who first discuss the practices and came up with a 'new name' (capitalism) for such archaic phenomenon due to the presence of 'heavy involvement and taxation on economic activities by the monarchic rulers' which was common in Europe during that era.
Checks or 'deeds writing' have nothing to do with 'capitalism'.. and by the way; the chinese invented Fiat Money / Token for trading / exchange purposes using paper, many centuries before the 'the arabs'.. which is understandable since paper and ink were invented by them too...
Salam / Peace
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By the way socialist or capitalist doesn't matter.. it just a theoretical conception which overtly abused by politicians.. especially during the cold war era..
Deng Xiaoping said it best
"It doesn't matter whether a cat is white or black, as long as it catches mice."
-- on the debate whether China's economy are going toward socialist-communism or capitalism direction.And we're now witnessing how China has risen to be one of the superpower in the world stage..
Salam / Peace
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By the way socialist or capitalist doesn't matter.. it just a theoretical conception which overtly abused by politicians.. especially during the cold war era..
Deng Xiaoping said it best
"It doesn't matter whether a cat is white or black, as long as it catches mice."
-- on the debate whether China's economy are going toward socialist-communism or capitalism direction.And we're now witnessing how China has risen to be one of the superpower in the world stage..
Salam / Peace
Salaam Jafar
With all due respect
I do not agree with you when you communism=socialism. The principal is the same but communists want to enforce their ideals with armed conflict and up-rising of the worker. Socialism wants dialouge.
In communism there are contradictions; the state runs and controls everything, this is in conflict with the founders of communism which saw the state as an enemy and wanted to abolish it. In socialism the private market is allowed to exist.Communism versus socialism kind of makes me think of......hmmm.........Mohammedanians versus Quran Alone
I am not a socialist, capitalist or communist. All I know is that in my job I have seen many countries, and I have not been in the front, living in fancy hotels and all that stuff. I have been in the basement and worked with the people who are the bottom of the ladder. All I can tell you is that in those countries where socialism has had a large influence, the people at the bottom are the most healthy.
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Salam all,
- Charity is not obligatory in the ideology of capitalism, the poor are left to fend for themselves.
- The Qur'an in spirit, seems to oppose the type of hyper-accumulation of capital that is encouraged under capitalism.
- There is no l'aissez faire in Islam, the poor are explicitly to be provided for. (If I am not mistaken)
- Capitalism endorses the outright ownership of what is rightfully the property of Allah, i.e. unused lands and resources to the exclusion of those in need.
- Capitalism promotes over-production (ie WASTE) and planned obsolescence (ie MORE WASTE)
- Capitalism does not naturally allow for the motivation to conserve and preserve Allah's property. (Forget "regulation", if that worked the environment would be in better shape)
- Capitalism promotes, fosters and perpetuates a culture of greed.
Islam may not be the "ultimate form of communism", but anybody who would assert that capitalism is Islamic is even farther from correct.
~Peace
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Peace fellow members,
In my studies of the Quran, I have never found verses which support pure capitalism or pure socialism/communism. The Quranic system, which I believe is divine, has some elements from both capitalism and socialism/communism.
The Quranic system seems to retain/endorse the best of capitalism, which is giving people personal freedom and choice (regarding work/career and health), giving people the incentive to work, allowing innovation and economic growth, while it seems to avoid the worst of capitalism by controlling/regulating corporate profiteering and privatization of natural resources at the expense of human/social life and nature. Wild corporate profiteering can have negative effects on human life as well as the environment.
The Quranic system seems to retain/endorse the best of socialism/communism, which is the redistribution of wealth (albeit through voluntary charity instead of involuntary taxation) and allows natural resources to be owned by the people of a country/community (instead of being owned by private corporations, whether national or foreign), while it seems to avoid the worst of socialism/communism by not allowing unhealthy concentration of power, passive welfare dependency, politization of science and health and last but not least the creation of too many laws.
"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws." - Tacitus
Historically, in some socialist/communist countries, its citizens got fewer rights/freedoms and more power was given to the ruling elites in those states. Therefore many people seem to believe that socialism/communism can lead to totalitarianism. However, throughout history there have been both capitalist and communist/socialist countries that were totalitarian. For instance, after the coupe in 1973, Chile became a highly capitalist country. But even though it became a highly capitalist country, it also became a totalitarian state during the years following the seizure of power. It seems any state can become totalitarian, regardless of whether it has a socialist/communist system or a capitalist system.
In conclusion, the system of the Quran, which has elements from both capitalism and socialism/communism, seems to retain/endorse the best of these systems while avoiding the worst. Thus, the system of the quran seems to be beyond capitalism and socialism/communism (please check verse 482.
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Amity,
to hold a belief that communism is in any way the same as Islam, is a level of ignorance of what Islam actually is, that demonstrates a total failure to grasp Islam at any practical level.
Communism is the dichotomous extreme to Islam, even capitalism is closer.
The true form of Islam is anarchic. this is free of all politics, as it is free of all forms of hierarchy, it does not impose poverty on all as the communist model demands, it doesn't turn the individual as a cog in a vast machine as communism does, it does not impose dictaes, rules, regulation, rationing, restriction or conformity, as communism does.
Your have the allodium and you have Ba'alist model, the Ba'alist model has a lot of slight variations, but all are fundamentally the same, Ba'al means owner, and ownership "sales" on the holy "See" of commerce,
I wrote an explanation of the development of the Ba'alist slavery model
https//earthcoinage.com/the-baal-serpent-and-the-bridge-builder/