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  4. salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...

salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...

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  • T Offline
    T Offline
    TAJ
    wrote on last edited by
    #33

    Salaams All,

    Hussein, why are you leaving? Maybe you won't even look at the posts now to answer this question. (

    Joe, you wrote
    The preposition ala/on/to is there and thus we have "taba Allahu AAala alnnabiyyi" - Allah turns to the informer - . Also taba is used in this very ayat 2 times mind you, once with the preposition and once without it.

    'Taba' is used twice in the Ayah and twice it came with the preposition '3alaa'.

    p.s. I haven't followed the thread but just thought now to take a look at the last posts!

    Taj

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    • WakasW Offline
      WakasW Offline
      Wakas
      wrote on last edited by
      #34

      peace be upon you Hussein,

      Sorry to hear you're leaving. And if that was your last post, then I see little point in responding if there will be no response. In any case...

      Your view that when people twb, its always to The God is questionable. There is no inherent asociation of the word with God, if there was, why mention God in the context. Also, that means according to you every thief must turn to God (i.e. convert?), in order to be forgiven . I assume therefore, you feel there can there be no disbelieving thieves? There is no compulsion in the system/obligation, no forced conversions etc. You are basically saying the thieves, or those who wage war against the God and his messenger they are threatened with punishments, severe ones in 533-34, but if they convert, then they are forgiven. I personlly have not encountered this notion in the entire reading, in fact I think its contradictory to it .

      For sake of argument, lets say every time twb is used, its always to The God (which I agree is the majority usage, simply because when people use it, it means repent, and most of the time its repenting to The God), even if that is the case, my point still stands

      According to you, there is a clear conversion (pagans to muslims etc.) in 95, 911. My question is, quite simply, out of the other 90 root occurrences, please give us examples where it is also used to signify a clear conversion like you are suggesting for 95, 911. If you present none, I will assume you feel 11112 is the best (&only?) example out of the 90.

      p.s. I haven't followed the thread but just thought now to take a look at the last posts!

      Perhaps you can share your thoughts upon the thread once you have looked at it, especially if you feel it applies to you.

      God bless.

      Wakas

      All information is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should always seek knowledge and verify for themselves when possible: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11.

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      • WakasW Offline
        WakasW Offline
        Wakas
        wrote on last edited by
        #35

        Taken from Concordance of Quran

        Ta-Waw-Ba

        taba vb. (I) ~ repent, to be penitent, to do penance; (with prep. ala) to turn towrds someone (in forgiveness); (with prep. ila) to turn towrds someone (in penance). (n. vb.) repentnce, penitance. (pcple. act.) one who repents, penitent.

        There is no such preposition in 95, 911. Thus "to" is not implied.

        There are examples of specific usage of twb ila/to God , thus al quran could have easily mentioned it in 95, 911, instead of making us assume thats what was meant, if that was what was meant.

        Wakas

        All information is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should always seek knowledge and verify for themselves when possible: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11.

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        • WakasW Offline
          WakasW Offline
          Wakas
          wrote on last edited by
          #36

          peace All,

          I have PM'd Edip Yuksel asking for a response to this thread. If he does not reply, please remind me to PM him again. I understand he's busy, so I dont mind if he takes a few months to respond. I might forget by then, hence this post.

          Wakas

          All information is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should always seek knowledge and verify for themselves when possible: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11.

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          • T Offline
            T Offline
            TheNabi
            wrote on last edited by
            #37

            Salaam,

            'Taba' is used twice in the Ayah and twice it came with the preposition '3alaa'.

            Thank you for the correction.

            Joe

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            • U Offline
              U Offline
              unknownuser
              wrote on last edited by
              #38

              Salaamun alaikum all,

              Ayat 11113 (pm translation) mentions about those who repented with prophet Muhammad

              11113 So stand straight as you were commanded and those who repented with you and do not transgress. He is watcher over what you do.

              This repentance is the repentance of someone who is already a believer (mumin) and cannot mean conversion to Islam. There are other ayat in Al-Quran that talk about this kind of repentance

              2187 It has been made lawful for you during the night of fasting to approach your women sexually. They are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. God knows that you used to betray your souls so He has accepted your repentance, and forgiven you; now you may approach them and seek what God has written for you.
              9114 Those who repent, those who serve, those who thank, those who wander in devotion, those who kneel, those who prostrate, those who order good and deter from evil, and those who keep the boundaries of God. And give good news to the believers.
              1332 And as such, We have sent you to a nation as other nations that have come before, so that you may recite for them that which has been inspired to you; while they are still rejecting the Almighty. Say "He is my Lord, there is no god but He, in Him I place my trust and to Him is my repentance."
              2432 And repent to God, all of you believers, that you may succeed.
              429 And anything you dispute in, then its judgment shall be with God. Such is God my Lord. In Him I put my trust, and to Him I repent.
              669 O you who believe, you shall repent to God a sincere repentance.

              The above ayat are proof that someone who is already a believer including a prophet can repent to God. Prophet Muhammad and his companion believers were all human and can make a mistake and the repentance is prescribed by Allah for such an occasion

              418 Repentance is only for those who commit sin out of ignorance and then repent soon after; these will be forgiven by God, God is Knowledgeable, Wise.

              So a believer can make a mistake and then repent soon after and Allah forgives. Thus it is clear that the repentance mentioned in 11113 cannot mean conversion to Islam as brother Hlatif implies.

              There is clearly no compulsion in religion

              2256 There is no compulsion in the system; the proper way has been made clear from the wrong way. Whoever rejects evil, and believes in God, then he has grasped the most solid branch that will never break. God is Hearer, Knower

              After careful consideration of all the above and the fact that ayat 92 to 913 are about the pagans who broke the treaty and their oath, the most likely meaning of 96 would be that if these pagans repent (from breaking the treaty) and uphold their bond (the treaty) again thereby contributing towards betterment, then they are to be left alone. This would be a very good example of how al-salat does not meen the timed prayer of the mumin and al-zakat does not mean giving charity.

              A DIFFERENT ANGLE

              However, brother Wakas, I would like to add another angle to this discussion and I would like to have your opinion on this. Until ayat 94 the pagans have not broken their treaty. 94 mentions about repenting and IMO this is repenting from setting up partners with Allah

              94 And a declaration from God and His messenger to the people, on this, the peak day of the Pilgrimage "That God and His messenger are innocent from all those who set up partners." If you repent, then it is better for you, and if you turn away, then know that you will not escape God. And give news to those who have rejected of a painful retribution.

              The repenting of pagans as above clearly means their repentance from setting up partners because of the immediately preceding words. When one repents from setting up partners it is obvious that one starts accepting one God thereby becoming a muslim. So the above repentance "could" mean conversion to Al-Islam.

              Now is it possible that in ayat 96 Allah is talking about the same repentance?, that is, the repentance from setting up partners and not the repentance from breaking the treaty. If that is so then 96 could have the alternative meaning of the pagans repenting from setting up partners, thereby becoming muslims, and then upholding salat and bringing forth zakat, thereby now becoming believers. This meaning would then be reinforced by 912 which talks about the same repentance and upholding salat and bringing forth zakat making them brothers in deen. Brothers in deen at least means being muslim as Allah has chosen Al-Islam as deen.

              This would not contradict with 2256 because the pagans are not being forced to become muslims. They have an alternative option of surrendering and giving up and seeking the protection of the believers as per 97. IMO the protection is CONDITIONAL and the pagans sanctuary is either within the community of the believers or in the community of the pagans as long as they can easily hear the Word of Allah

              97 And if any of those who have set up partners seeks your protection, then you may protect him so that he may hear the words of God, then let him reach his sanctuary. This is because they are a people who do not know

              This protection and letting them go is not a free and clear one as brother Wakas implies because it is conditional on them being able to hear the Words of Allah. Also IMO that would automatically imply having another treaty with them after they surrendered and the protection was given to them. So the pagans have 2 options after breaking their treaty they can either repent and become believers or they can give up and seek protection of the believers which will be given to them as long as they can hear the Words of Allah. They do not have the compulsion of accepting the Words, but they will have to make another treaty with the believers.

              2 MORE POINTS

              1. If we translate 96 meaning that if the pagans repent from breaking the treaty and uphold the bond (the treaty) thereby contributing to the betterment then leave them alone, then this meaning would make 97 redundant. If they are upholding the treaty again then obviously they are protected by the believers. Why give them an option of seeking protection and going back to their sanctuary again in 97 ?

              2. In the beginning of chapter 9 when Allah is talking about the pagans who made a treaty with the believers, He does not call them brothers in deen with the believers. However in 912 according to brother Wakas's interpretation the pagans have not converted to muslims and all they did was repent from breaking the treaty and uphold it again, so what is different this time that Allah calls them brothers in deen for doing that?

              Peace,

              Tanveer

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              • WakasW Offline
                WakasW Offline
                Wakas
                wrote on last edited by
                #39

                peace Br. Tanveer, all,

                Until ayat 94 the pagans have not broken their treaty.

                Strictly speaking yes, but this is clearly implied. The very first word of the chapter tees up the subsequent signs in this direction

                baratun = acquittal/absolve

                Furthermore, in 94 it states

                PM Except (illa) for those with whom you had a treaty from among those who have set-up partners if they did not reduce anything from it nor did they plan to attack you...

                Thus directly implying the reference of the prior sign(s) is those who reduced from the treaty or planned to attack you.

                The repenting of pagans as above clearly means their repentance from setting up partners because of the immediately preceding words.

                That in no way can be called clear. Why cant it simply be about making a public announcement that we are innocent from them, i.e. they broke the treaty, they are to blame.

                If that is so then 96 could have the alternative meaning of the pagans repenting from setting up partners, thereby becoming muslims, and then upholding salat and bringing forth zakat, thereby now becoming believers.

                For that opinion to hold, you are forced to insert a lot of interpretation into the signs. Please remember they are not referenced as anything other than transgressors/idolaters etc.

                This protection and letting them go is not a free and clear one as brother Wakas implies

                I did not imply that. That, as far as I understood was Br. Hussein's position, thus I was pointing out its absurdity. That was not my own opinion.

                they can either repent and become believers

                Just like when the thief commits a crime, they repent, nothing to do with conversion. Same as this case. When al quran wishes to point out its twb/repentance to The God, the word "ila" is used, there is no "ila" here, nor in the thief example.

                2 MORE POINTS

                1 - why do you think 95 has the clause "if"? The subsequent sign allows for the situation when not everyone accepts the condition.

                2 - the next sign, 912 proves they are not brothers in terms of Muslims or believers or in terms of conversion because it states "And if they break their oaths after making them..." Its clear the signs have been referencing "they" with trangressors/idolaters throughout, especially the previous signs prior to 911. If they have converted, why are they still being held to account for their oaths? What is going on? What oaths? Is there a word in the previous sign, 911, that can be connected with a oath/bond/link? Yes! That word is slw.

                In fact, based on this new observation, I think the above signs conclusively prove that they are not converts! Beyond reasonable doubt!

                Its further reinforced with "uphold the slw... brothers in deen/obligation/system" and then says "break their oaths... denounce the authority of your deen/obligation/system".

                Anyone else agree with this observation?

                Wakas

                As a side note, I dislike capitalising islam into Islam, as if its a magical name/noun/title. Its primary signification is a mindset, i.e. a description.

                All information is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should always seek knowledge and verify for themselves when possible: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11.

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                • U Offline
                  U Offline
                  unknownuser
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #40

                  Salaamun alaikum brother Wakas,

                  Thank you for your explanations, and answers to my questions and points. I think you have conclusively proved your position.

                  This protection and letting them go is not a free and clear one as brother Wakas implies

                  I did not imply that. That, as far as I understood was Br. Hussein's position, thus I was pointing out its absurdity. That was not my own opinion.

                  I apologize for the above. It was a misunderstanding on my part.

                  As a side note, I dislike capitalising islam into Islam, as if its a magical name/noun/title. Its primary signification is a mindset, i.e. a description.

                  By Al-Islam I meant The Islam which is submission or surrender to Allah and not just a regular islam meaning submission or surrender which could be to anyone. Maybe I should write islam lillah. That is why I capitalized it to distinguish islam lillah from islam.

                  Regards,

                  Tanveer

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                  • WakasW Offline
                    WakasW Offline
                    Wakas
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #41

                    peace Br. Tanveer,

                    About Al-Islam, I knew what you meant. I was just making an observation. Your response about differentiating any old islam/compliance from Al-Islam is a valid one. Its unlikely though, for someone to use islam in any other way, in fact, thats how it probably got its title.

                    The way I see it... Muslims with a capital M, implies the primary signification is the title, whilst a muslim, with small m, implies the primary signification is the mindset/description. Same with Islam and islam.

                    God bless.

                    Wakas

                    All information is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should always seek knowledge and verify for themselves when possible: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11.

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                    • WakasW Offline
                      WakasW Offline
                      Wakas
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #42

                      peace be upon you all,

                      Based on this thread, the following article was written

                      Disproved once and for all salat = prayer

                      It covers many other significant points not brought up in this thread.

                      All feedback is welcome.

                      Wakas

                      All information is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should always seek knowledge and verify for themselves when possible: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11.

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                      • F Offline
                        F Offline
                        Fahad1
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #43

                        peace Wakas .

                        So you think 'al quran' changes its reference and now wishes them to repent from idolatry rather than the object of reference the treaty?

                        they are repenting from both idolatry and from breakng the treaty . as muslims they are not going to fight against muslims ,right ?

                        You think the word twb can somehow imply 'repent & convert' even though this meaning is nowhere to be found in a classical Arabic dictionary nor in the 87 occurrences of 'al quran'?

                        the usage of 'repent' alongwith 'salat' and 'zakat' indicates that they 'converted' .

                        You think 'al quran' actually gives an ultimatum in which people either convert or are punished? And not only that, according to your explanation it doesn't even mention it, just implies it, like its no big deal when this strikes at the very core of the deen!

                        idolators were going to be killed . it should be considered a mercy from God that their life will be spared and they will be set free if they repent and establish salat and give 'zakat' .

                        You think the suffix "...hum" somehow miraculously refers to the new converts not mentioned in the context, even though you have not provided one example from the entire quran in which this happens.

                        it is still refering to the same people .

                        You think its a mere coincidence the so-called converts are never referenced with a word which would prove they are converts, e.g. mumineen/believers.

                        their establishing salat and zakat makes it crystal clear that they are no longer idolators . isnt that enough ? by the way they are also called our brothers in 'Deen' . what do u think ?

                        Do you think thieves also convert or is it just this special case?

                        no . the thieves are not commanded to establish salat and give 'zakat'.

                        How do you explain the problem of 912? progressing options etc.

                        what about 912 ?

                        that is what i think .

                        by the way, u say that 'salat' means 'bond' or 'oath' . what exactly do u mean by that . what bond ? i dont get it . please tell me.
                        peace.

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                        • WakasW Offline
                          WakasW Offline
                          Wakas
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #44

                          peace Saladin,

                          Lets run through it point by point...

                          they are repenting from both idolatry and from breakng the treaty .

                          So, even though the object of reference is the treaty in the context before & after 93, you think an additional repentance from shirk is being made here. Unlikely (lets see how many unlikely situations have to arise for your interpretation to hold).
                          The reason why the word 'mushrikeen' is used in 93 is those people are with whom the treaty was made (it has to make reference to them!), not because it is wanting to use this as an object of reference for the word taboo/repent. The following sign 94 proves beyond doubt the object of reference is the treaty because it uses the word 'illa/except'. Proving the previous sign is on about 'those who reduced from the treaty'. If you disregard this, you are following the least likely interpretation.

                          as muslims they are not going to fight against muslims ,right ?

                          Please tell me I have misunderstood you. Are you saying the repent/taboo in 93 is implying conversion to muslims? This is not supported by the context whatsoever.

                          the usage of 'repent' alongwith 'salat' and 'zakat' indicates that they 'converted' .

                          Ahh, so you're saying 'taboo' does indeed mean 'repent' but the implication of conversion is made by the usage of slw & zkw. Well, at least you're consistent with the word 'taboo'. Firstly, the implication of conversion just by using the words slw & zkw and not mentioning the actual conversion, would come as an absolute shock to the student of the scripture. According to you, 'al quran' treats this conversion as if its nothing and simply implies it and does not mention it directly even though it has huge implications for the whole deen. Unlikely. Can you provide another similar example in which the guilty are required to convert to Islam to escape punishment in the entire quran? Just give me one, thats all I want. If you cant, this means your interpretation is unlikely.

                          idolators were going to be killed . it should be considered a mercy from God that their life will be spared and they will be set free if they repent and establish salat and give 'zakat' .

                          They were not necessarily going to be killed, please see 96, so this is a non-point.

                          it is still refering to the same people .

                          I'm glad you said this. I agree the suffix "hum" refers to the same people. That is fine for my understanding but if you also take this view, your view gets completely and utterly demolished. If you believe "hum" refers to the same people, then in your view 'al quran' contains a contradiction/error. Lets translate it according to your interpretation, and leave the people of reference in, according to the "hum"...

                          So when the restricted months are passed, then you may fight the idolaters wherever you find the idolaters, and take the idolaters, and surround the idolaters, and stand against the idolaters at every point. If the idolaters repent, and uphold/maintain the salat and bring forth the betterment, then clear/vacate the idolater's way/path. Truly, The God is Turning/Forgiving, Embracing/Merciful.

                          BEFORE and AFTER slw & zkw are mentioned, they are referenced as the same idolaters. According to you, a conversion has taken place, so it is impossible for al quran to reference them as the same! Who is right? You or al quran? If you are proposing al quran changes the people of reference mid-sentence then please bring another example of this in the entire quran, if you speak the truth. If you cant, then your view is extremely unlikely.

                          their establishing salat and zakat makes it crystal clear that they are no longer idolators . isnt that enough ? by the way they are also called our brothers in 'Deen' . what do u think ?

                          These questions are answered in the article. I assumed you read it, was this a mistake on my part?

                          no . the thieves are not commanded to establish salat and give 'zakat'.

                          I'm glad you admitted this. This means you believe the option of conversion is only given with specific wrongdoings and not others. I would be interested to hear your criteria/reasoning of why this option is only given for certain situations and not others.

                          How do you explain the problem of 912? progressing options etc.

                          what about 912 ?

                          This clearly shows to me you either never read the article properly or you never understood this point in my article. Which is it? In either case, I suggest reading/re-reading the article.

                          by the way, u say that 'salat' means 'bond' or 'oath' . what exactly do u mean by that . what bond ? i dont get it . please tell me.

                          The article discusses 91-12. Thus 'oath/bond' is an understanding of slw based on these signs/ayatin. Did I ever say this is its blanket meaning in the entire quran? Once again, this shows you either never read the article properly or you never understood the premise of the article. In either case, I suggest reading/re-reading the article.

                          Please note, I will not entertain any further debate until I am sure you have actually read the article in question and the associated links. This is a conclusion based on your comments and the fact that not once have you quoted from my article.

                          Wakas

                          All information is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should always seek knowledge and verify for themselves when possible: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11.

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                          • U Offline
                            U Offline
                            unknownuser
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #45

                            Salaamun alaikum brother Wakas,

                            Following is quote from our pm

                            tanveermd wrote
                            There are a couple of points I am researching pertinent to the topic. The first point is that it seems the idolaters also used to uphold salat very similar to that of the believers !!. Salat is not only post quranic but is also pre quranic as Abraham, Moosa, Isa, Shuaib they all upheld salat. That salat was already being upheld by the idolaters at the time of revelation of the quran also which was similar to that of the believers but was not for Allah but for their own gods ( what I mean is the external physical actions i.e. the physical part of salat were similar but the content was different). It is possible that the salat of the idolaters mentioned in the first part of chapter 9 could be that salat !!

                            The following ayat may be the evidence for the above

                            955 And what prevented what they would spend from being accepted from them except that they rejected God and His messenger, and they do not attend to the salat except lazily, and they do not spend except unwillingly.
                            Arabic Original Text 955

                            Here they clearly references the idolaters. Could the salat mentioned in 96 and 912 be the same salat?

                            Wakas wrote
                            That is a long-shot. It references not true believers, those hesitant, opportunistic etc. My understanding would be oration, and it fits fine.

                            tanveermd wrote
                            Maybe what Allah means is that if the idolaters uphold the same salat that they always upheld (not directed to Allah but to their gods or directed to Allah but lazily) in addition to repenting (from breaking the treaty) then leave them alone. What do you think brother Wakas?

                            Wakas wrote
                            Impossible. I have never read anywhere else of The God recommending/condoning other gods. Nor would He recommend/condone a lazy salat.

                            The context of ayat 955 is rejecters (kafiroon) and not idolaters as I mistakenly said above

                            950 And from them are those who Say "Grant me leave, and do not test me." But it is in the test that they have indeed fallen, and Hell is surrounding the rejecters.
                            951 When any good befalls you, it upsets them, and if any bad befalls you, they Say "We have made our precautions beforehand," and they turn away happy.
                            952 Say "Nothing will befall us except what God has decreed for us, He is our Patron." And in God the believers shall put their trust.
                            953 Say "You can only expect for us one of two good things; while we wait for you to be afflicted by God with a retribution from Him, or by our hands. So wait, we are with you waiting."
                            954 Say "Spend willingly or unwillingly, it will not be accepted from you. You are a wicked people."
                            955 And what prevented what they would spend from being accepted from them except that they rejected God and His messenger, and they do not attend to the salat except lazily, and they do not spend except unwillingly.
                            956 So do not be impressed by their wealth or children; God only wishes to punish them with it in the worldly life, and so that their lives will end while they are rejecters.

                            955 is talking about the salat of the rejecters. Can you please give me your understanding about what is the salat of the rejecters? What is the meaning of salat in 955? How can a rejecter (kafir) attend to the salat? You say that your understanding is oration. Oration of what? The rejecters do not believe in Al-Quran. So what would they be orating?

                            So if a rejecter can attend to salat, maybe idolaters can also uphold their own salat to their gods? In 96 The God mentions about salat of the idolaters, could it be similar to the salat of the rejecters? The God saying that if the idolaters repent (from breaking the treaty) and uphold salat and bring forth zakat does not necessarily mean recommending/condoning other gods. It may merely mean that if the idolaters uphold their own version of salat in addition to repenting from breaking the treaty then leave them alone, the stress being on repentence from breaking the treaty.

                            Regards,

                            Tanveer

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                            • J Offline
                              J Offline
                              jonny_k
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #46

                              In 96 The God mentions about salat of the idolaters, could it be similar to the salat of the rejecters? The God saying that if the idolaters repent (from breaking the treaty) and uphold salat and bring forth zakat does not necessarily mean recommending/condoning other gods. It may merely mean that if the idolaters uphold their own version of salat in addition to repenting from breaking the treaty then leave them alone, the stress being on repentence from breaking the treaty.

                              Khi- Salam. I believe the pagans of Mecca knew well n casually performed the same PHYSICAL way of salat as it was passed down from Abraham. This is exactly y salat is nothing new 2 the pagans. They knew how 2 perform it but many of them were getting casual. GOD Bless!

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                              • WakasW Offline
                                WakasW Offline
                                Wakas
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #47

                                peace Tanveer,

                                I shall post my response

                                Peace Tanveer,

                                It is clear from your message that you are trying to justify the unjustifiable. A pre-conceived notion can do that to an understanding. Been there, done that, bought the T-shirt, so thats how I know.

                                The context of ayat 955 is rejecters (kafiroon) and not idolaters as I mistakenly said above.

                                Firstly, the core meaning of kfr is to conceal (with active/concious intent) but I would agree that it can mean reject.

                                Secondly, what is the meaning of "yatoona"?

                                Thirdly, the signs are discussing the opportunistic, the hypocrites, the neither here nor there, the wishy washy type of people. Al Quran describes these type of people amongst the worst type of people. Where is the word mushrikeen?

                                955 is talking about the salat of the rejecters. Can you please give me your understanding about what is the salat of the rejecters? What is the meaning of salat in 955? How can a rejecter (kafir) attend to the salat?

                                If you think the translation is "attend to the salat", then why do you presume it means "salat of the rejectors"? Is this your assumption or is this what the sign says? If you attend a meeting lets say, can I describe it as your meeting? Or more correctly, are you a participant? In any case, once you have clarified "yatoona", I will give my answer.

                                You say that your understanding is oration. Oration of what? The rejecters do not believe in Al-Quran. So what would they be orating?

                                Once again, if you think it says "attend to the salat" then why do you presume the "rejecters" would be orating? Is this your assumption or is this what the sign says?

                                So if a rejecter can attend to salat, maybe idolaters can also uphold their own salat to their gods? In 96 The God mentions about salat of the idolaters, could it be similar to the salat of the rejecters? The God saying that if the idolaters repent (from breaking the treaty) and uphold salat and bring forth zakat does not necessarily mean recommending/condoning other gods. It may merely mean that if the idolaters uphold their own version of salat in addition to repenting from breaking the treaty then leave them alone, the stress being on repentence from breaking the treaty.

                                I cant believe you're making this statement. Firstly, nowhere does The God condone/recommend upholding incorrect beliefs/practices. Your interpretation does imply that, quite clearly I might add, there is no ifs or buts. Secondly, lets say that interp. is correct, what possible reason would The God have for incorporating 'upholding their own version of slw to their false gods' into the solution?! It is completely illogical.

                                Wakas

                                All information is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should always seek knowledge and verify for themselves when possible: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11.

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                                  unknownuser
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #48

                                  Peace Wakas,

                                  Thank you for improving my (mis)understanding of 955 and 96. "yatoona" means those who attend or come and not uphold. You have convincingly proved your point; the matter is clear to me now. Your understanding of 91 to 913 seems to be the most likely one. (All verse numbering mentioned in my post is the pm translation numbering adopted from the warsh version)

                                  Regards,

                                  Tanveer

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                                    Idris
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #49

                                    peace be upon you wakas,

                                    I agree with your understanding of the aforementioned signs but I'm afraid it will not convince a sunni that salat is not a ritual prayer because they believe that the idolaters performed ritual prayer back in those days as well

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                                    • WakasW Offline
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                                      Wakas
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #50

                                      peace,

                                      You have convincingly proved your point...

                                      Thats twice you've said that wink Like most things, all it takes is careful study, as I did not come to my understanding overnight. Your input did help solidify/clarify my argument.
                                      Thanks for clarifying "yatoona". As for oration, there are many examples of communication being relayed prior to 954.

                                      I'm afraid it will not convince a sunni that salat is not a ritual prayer because they believe that the idolaters performed ritual prayer back in those days as well

                                      I agree that it cannot convince everyone, but this counter-argument is clearly contradictory to the specific signs, and 'al quran' as a whole.
                                      On an unrelated note, nice quote by Dom Helda Camara.

                                      Wakas

                                      All information is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should always seek knowledge and verify for themselves when possible: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11.

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                                        wildguest1956
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #51

                                        Peace Wakas,

                                        I a m continuing our dialogue of here
                                        http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3463&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
                                        about your article
                                        http//mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/think-786/disproved_salatequalsprayer.htm

                                        Could you go farther, and translate/explain verses ?
                                        And especially ?

                                        Thanks in advance,

                                        JM

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                                        • WakasW Offline
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                                          Wakas
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #52
                                          1. Ma (not) kana (it was/is) lilmushrikeena (to/for the polytheists/idolaters) an (to) yaAAmuroo (enliven/visit) masajida (institutes of acknowledgment) Allahi (of The God) shahideena (they testify/witness) AAala (on/against) anfusihim (themselves) bi (with/in) al kufri (the concealment/rejection) ola-ika (such like/people) habitat (are fruitless/failed) aAAmaluhum (their works/efforts) wafee (and in) al nnari (the fire) hum (they) khalidoona (stay/remain forever)

                                          It is not for the polytheists/idolaters to enliven/visit institutes of acknowledgement of The God while they testify/witness on themselves with concealment/rejection, such people's works are fruitless and in the fire they will dwell forever.

                                          1. Innama (only) yaAAmuru (enliven/visit) masajida (institutes of acknowledgment) Allahi (of The God) man (those who) amana (trust/believe) bi Allahi (in The God) wa (and) al yawmi (the day/time) al-akhiri (the deferred/last) wa (and) aqama (uphold/maintain/establish) al ssalata (the bond/oration) wa ata (and bring forth) al zzakata (the betterment) wa lam (and none) yakhsha (fears) illa (except) Allaha (The God) faAAasa (expected/perhaps) ola-ika (such like/people) an (to) yakoonoo (be) mina (of/from) al muhtadeena (the guided/directed).

                                          Only enliven/visit institutes of acknowledgment of The God those who trust/believe in The God and the deferred/last time/day and uphold/establish/maintain the bond/oration and bring forth the betterment and none fears except The God, perhaps such people to be from the guided/directed.

                                          Wakas

                                          All information is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should always seek knowledge and verify for themselves when possible: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11.

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