Quran's shariah and it's applicability
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Peace LT,
All I said if more people translate the same thing in the same way then this has more weight than your own translation does it not? So how did Christian or sunni come into this...?
Do you seriously believe that?.. or just trying to kick up a debate? ? The reason mquran is talking about sunni, etc... is that they believe in the majority of the translators who used hadith to get the interpretation of quran. More doesn't mean correct, you of all people, know this. Right?Come zenje - I don't speak Arabic and even those that speak Arabic I have been informed do not speak Quranic Arabic and therefore they have to rely on some sort of translations too. And majority of forum members here also use translations. My point was if all translators translate the same words in same way then this has more weight than mquran self translations of this word, does it not? Can you not see this zenje? This is not about more but translation of the same words. Are telling me that if every translators translate the same words in the same way then they must be wrong because mquran has translated it differently?
I don't trust human reasoning, I trust Allah.
What can I say to above zenje? mquran seem to have forgotten that Araham himself, the first monotheist, came to the notion of monotheistic God using his Reason Alone!
Now you have come to the mentality of the "Islamic mind"! Now can you so why European and other western nations are so succesful in everything?
What I meant by "Islamic Mind" is making SCRIPTURE as REASON, instead of a GUIDE. A "Islamic Mind" is unable to think outside of the Scritpure. And yes European and Western nations are sucessful in every way - economically and intellectually but also in democracy and personal liberty.
And why not trust in Allah?
I do Zenje and thats why I have no FEAR of death! -)
The person who does not trust his own reason it will be pointless to continue this argument.
You trust your own reason more than you trust in GOD ?I have my trust in God but I rely on my Reason, intuitions and imaginations to develop an understanding of my God (I know I have said this millions times over... -)
Regards,
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if u had read history then u would have known that around the time when Victors in a war in the ancient times usually killed all the males of the city and made women and children into slaves , Salahuddin Ayyubi also entered Jerusalem . and he didnt spill blood , killed males or raped women . that was true morality . that was the morality of the ancient scripture of 6th centuy arabia . what the disbeleivers did , i.e killing people and raping women was immoral , and it is and always has been immoral .
Yes, Saladin, there have some exception people in history too like Saladin. But they were rare. But look further back in history and you will realise what a bloody history it has been for humanity!
Regards,
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Peace mquran,
The verses before and after including 841 (from 839 - 845) talk about war/fighting, hence the booty or "spoils of war" or loosely "profits". My question is how does one share/assign 20% (1/5th) with/to Allah and HIS messenger???
I agree that the passage deals with warfare, but 8/41 specifically deals with 'ghanim' or benefits/profits from ANYTHING (min shain) is to be channeled to the cause.
If you agree with the passage/verses that deals with warfare, then that's what I believe its talking about in reference to benefits/profits/booty/spoils-of-war, not just ANYTHING. If you still think otherwise, then please elaborate in context.
Allah and his messenger represent the deen. Whatever we make in life, we need to give 1/5th to the cause.
What "cause" are you talking about, mquran? The verse clearly states that whatever booty/profits/spoils-of-war is left behind by the BELIEVERS, must be given/shared amongst Allah, His messenger and ....
I can understand the and ... part, but again, the question proposed by me was "how does one share/assign 20% (1/5th) with/to Allah and HIS messenger???"
In other words, how does Allah, being Most Merciful, would want HIS believers to 'kill' HIS non-believers in a war/fight and have 20% attributed/shared/given to HIM and HIS Messenger and others? Besides, what if the case is reversed??? This sounds pretty bizzare.
Personally, I believe this verse is misconstrued. What say you, my friend?
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peace LT, b_a, all,
I'm a little surprised by some of the content in this thread, but anyways...
And majority of forum members here also use translations. My point was if all translators translate the same words in same way then this has more weight than mquran self translations of this word, does it not?
It is not only mquran who thinks this. I also think "spoils of war" is highly debateable. Unfortunately 'anfal' is not used elswhere in al quran to thoroughly refute the 'spoils of war' claim but its core meaning is gain/gift/addition. And clearly the words 'of war' are not there. Thus, you must admit, at the very least, it is an interpretation/extrapolation. Unless of course one can provide evidence from classical Arabic dictionaries to say that 'anfal' never means anything else other than 'spoils of war'. Then you may have a point.
I think its the superlative (e.g. hassan / ahsan), thus it may have a stronger connotation.Now we have medical tests to prove whether there's been some kind of cheating. Let's say hypothetically a man is suspicious of his wife and he got some proofs that he is being cheated on. What would he do? Wait to catch his wife with four witnesses or get help from mainstream medicine or something? If you choose the latter then you're not living in accordance of the Quran.
I asked for an example. This is the first example you gave. Firstly, what is the specific test you are talking about? Does it work on male & female? Is it widely available so all people can use it?
If your answer to any of the above is deficient then your solution has failed. Unless, you are talking about adapting/updating... then perhaps we may want to consider what are the principles of the law and can these principles be kept intact and carried over to the present day.
Wakas
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Salaamun alaikum,
LoteTree I don't seem to understand you. All I said if more people translate the same thing in the same way then this has more weight than your own translation does it not? So how did Christian or sunni come into this...?
So your criteria is numbers, i.e 'if MORE PEOPLE'. My criteria is the Quran, not numbers. Thats why its better for u to be a sunni or christian. Plenty of numbers there for you to hide behind.
LoteTree I again I am failing to understand you. I have already said by OUR PRESENT STANDARDS what happened in the past is WRONG and yes immoral. But we have evolved since then. The MIGHT IS RIGHT morality was accepted norm in the past but not anymore - do you understand? (please don't bring Iraq and Bosnia - we are not talking about politics) but evolution of morality).
So accepted 'norms' makes things correct or wrong ? For 5 years, torturing and killing Jews in Germany and Poland was 'the norm'. Did that make it 'right' ?
Political decisions MAKE history so please don't level artificial epistemologies here, ok ?
LoteTreeAgain I don't understand you. The CRITERIA is our EVOLVED COLLECTIVE HUMAN CONSCIOUS.
Ah, beautiful. Now please tell me, is there a tangible body of ethos which human beings COLLECTIVELY agree to ?
In some parts of Pakistan, honor killing are THE NORM. Can you please tell us why this is wrong, assuming you think so ?
LoteTreeSo did the Romans, so did the Islamic Empires, so did the many Empires come and gone in the past. Read History mquran! Japan was conquered. Hey now they are most successful nations on Earth. India was ruled by the British, hey now they are becoming one of the fastest IT Technology centres in the world compared to neigbouring Pakistan. Being successful is looking forward to the future and not in the past!
Sorry but what is your point here? You told us about European success and its non-relationship to scripture. I'm telling you that European success came from merciless colonialism, i.e. murder and pillaging. I'm not saying no one else did it but since you mentioned Europeans, I just think you should know the full history. The people of the third world havent forgotten.
Lote Tree Hey did I not say that already that European nations already applied the Quranic Principles to their society? And did they use Quran? No! they relied on their Reason and thats what Quran tells you to do. Use your reason and use Quran as a guide and not absolute Truth or whole truth and not make quran as your REASON
I agree that its possible to evolve without any scripture. Its like walking without any map, you can still get there.
However, European/American hegemony isn't an example of this. They achieved material success on the basis of exploitation. They used reason without guidance and thus came to the conclusion that the rest of the world must be fodder for them. So lets not worship them but worship Allah.
Now you have come to the mentality of the "Islamic mind"! Now can you so why European and other western nations are so succesful in everything? So mquran I have no hope for you...
Succesful in EVERYTHING ? oh boy...even western thinkers themselves bemoan the decline of the west and u claim success in everything ? Look up the word 'delusional', pal.
Lote TreeHey I am so glad that I live in a liberal society and not some country where you get your head lopped off for speaking your mind!
Agreed. So am I. But unfortunately, ultra-liberalism leads to loss of COLLECTIVE rights to the errant individual. Mercy can't be forced.
Lote Tree I don't understand this - are you saying it is ok to chop peoples hands off for stealing? Can you clarify this too me?
No, Im asking you, if you think it's barbaric, WHY DO YOU THINK SO ? Point me to this 'collective human ethos' you keep going on about. I want to see it.
Lote TreeHey I am not Bush. Argue with him for not signing upto kyoto
You claim moral evolution has been achieved. This is all rubbish, sadly. Nothing but arrogance and haughtiness simply by looking 'universal declarations'. You can declare world hunger to be abolished, will that make food magically appear to starving ethiopians.
the language has changed, the situation remains.
I did not quote scripture to start with. I merely extended what you quoted.
Here's what you saidIn my view the language of the scripture is that of the 6th Arabia, the Morality of the scripture is the morality of the 6th century Arabia. That is why you get "spoils of war" being distributed amongst the victors. That is why the victims of war becomes your "Right Hand" possesion that can be made into slaves and concubines.
So you're right, you didn't quote it, you didn't even quote the translations. You just paraphased your own opinion about it. Quite an evolved thing to do, a true act for man of the 21st century.
ZenjeAnd why not trust in Allah? What does mentality of Islamic mind mean? Are you talking about the majority of the sects that like to call themselves muslims? Europeans and western nations successful in everything?... again, are you serious? Or maybe I should ask you what you mean by success.
That's a very good question. What does 'success' entail here ? Is conducting colonialist and post-colonialist projects leading to situations where 9 year old kids work for peanuts a 'success' , I wonder ?
Al-Quraan provides a criteria which transcends human subjectivity. This is why the very antithesis of 'ribaa' is the establishment of others in the world. But of course, being a 7th century text, it must be barbaric in thinking so (sic)
Nadia
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What does it mean to be moral?
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Does morality have any cultural bearings ?
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You mentioned HUMANITY sets standards ? Who was consulted in this standard setting ?
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Is there a linnear progression to morality? What are the conditions and exceptions if there is?
I too would like to see someone take a stab at these...
I opine that the reason Lote Tree refused to engage these questions is because they expose the cultural imperialism of morality if its humanly formulated.
Take the tradition of polygamy. If one were to say that it is uncivilised, one would need a valuation system to judge it so. Therefore, one would be saying that one culture has the superiority to judge another culture. There is no 'collective human ethos' except in Lote Tree's imagination.
LoteTree What can I say to above zenje? mquran seem to have forgotten that Araham himself, the first monotheist, came to the notion of monotheistic God using his Reason Alone!
How is Abraham the first monothiest ? Nuh came before him and Ibrahim was called 'shiatun nuh' (nuh's party)
As for him using reason ALONE, the Quran saysHis people disputed with him. He said "(Come) ye to dispute with me, about Allah, WHEN HE HAS GUIDED ME? I fear not (the beings) ye associate with Allah Unless my Lord willeth, (nothing can happen). My Lord comprehendeth in His knowledge all things. Will ye not (yourselves) be admonished?
How does Allah guide ?
2/38-39We said "Get ye down all from here; and if, as is sure, there comes to you GUIDANCE from me, whosoever follows My guidance, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve
"But those who reject Faith and BELIE OUR SIGNS, they shall be companions of the Fire; they shall abide therein."Lets not be so arrogant as to deify our reason. Musa used his reason too, in the story mentioned in 18/60-82 but it failed in light of KNOWLEDGE FROM THE PRESENCE OF ALLAH.
Yes, Saladin, there have some exception people in history too like Saladin. But they were rare. But look further back in history and you will realise what a bloody history it has been for humanity!
So where's the 'collective human ethos' in this, I wonder ? When someone of the past does it, its an exception. When Bush contravenes it, its politics. Lol..what a character.
DanishIf you agree with the passage/verses that deals with warfare, then that's what I believe its talking about in reference to benefits/profits/booty/spoils-of-war, not just ANYTHING. If you still think otherwise, then please elaborate in context.
The phrase 'min shain' (from anything) appears. Now the Quran is a book which uses similarities in repetition (39/23 - kitaaban mutashabihan mathany). The word 'enemy' 'defeated' 'take' 'wealth' 'weapons' DOES NOT appear in 8/41 although they do appear elsewhere. Thats because the 'war spoils' concept is an INTERPOLATION.
In other words, how does Allah, being Most Merciful, would want HIS believers to 'kill' HIS non-believers in a war/fight and have 20% attributed/shared/given to HIM and HIS Messenger and others? Besides, what if the case is reversed??? This sounds pretty bizzare.
Yes, there's no such thing as killing disbelievers for wealth to give away. This is not sherwood forest.
Please see 20/18 for word 'ghanim'. This is best, most defining occurence of the word. It means 'sheep' which to me is metaphorical.
To give to Allah and his messenger is simply contributing to the qiblah, i.e, establishing masjid al-haraam.
thanks and peace
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Peace mq, all
I opine that the reason Lote Tree refused to engage these questions is because they expose the cultural imperialism of morality if its humanly formulated.
Take the tradition of polygamy. If one were to say that it is uncivilised, one would need a valuation system to judge it so. Therefore, one would be saying that one culture has the superiority to judge another culture. There is no 'collective human ethos' except in Lote Tree's imagination.
Agree, thats why i raised it up again to be discussed
Yes, there's no such thing as killing disbelievers for wealth to give away. This is not sherwood forest.
lol
Regards,
Nadia -
Salaamun alaikum Nadia,
I am trying my best to fashion my thoughts in the Quranic mold. The Quran very surprisingly to me, does not have a word for 'moral' (in Arabic it's 'akhlaaq'). The Quran uses 'khalq' to mean 'creation' and doesn't imply a moralistic sense.
The closest corresponding word I find in the Quraan is 'salih' (usually translated as 'righteous'. To be 'salih' means to act in such a way that God's laws are preserved . Its opposite is 'fasad' which is used to signify mischief or chaos.
A fuller definition can be found here
http//www.toluislam.com/pub_online/exposition/glossary_s_to_t.htm#_Toc428590314
thanks and peace
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LoteTree I don't seem to understand you. All I said if more people translate the same thing in the same way then this has more weight than your own translation does it not? So how did Christian
or sunni come into this...?So your criteria is numbers, i.e 'if MORE PEOPLE'. My criteria is the Quran, not numbers. Thats why its better for u to be a sunni or christian. Plenty of numbers there for you to hide behind.
I don't seem to get this through to you at all can I!
Let me ask you differently - Are you saying your translation is the only valid one and every other translations that have ever been done are WRONG? Even translations done by Native Arabic speakers like Rashad Khalifa? OK, understood! - only your translation is
perfect others are invalid. Lets leave it at that... -)LoteTree I again I am failing to understand you. I have already said by OUR PRESENT STANDARDS what happened in the past is WRONG and yes immoral. But we have evolved since then. The MIGHT IS RIGHT morality was accepted norm in the past but not anymore - do you understand? (please don't bring Iraq and Bosnia - we are not talking about politics) but evolution of morality).
So accepted 'norms' makes things correct or wrong ? For 5 years, torturing and killing Jews in
Germany and Poland was 'the norm'. Did that make it 'right' ?
Again. I can't seem to make you understand! So I repeat
I have already said by OUR PRESENT STANDARDS what happened in the past is WRONG and yes immoral. But we have evolved since then. The MIGHT IS RIGHT morality was accepted "norm" in the past but not anymore - do you understand?
LoteTreeAgain I don't understand you. The CRITERIA is our EVOLVED COLLECTIVE HUMAN CONSCIOUS.
Ah, beautiful. Now please tell me, is there a tangible body of ethos which human beings COLLECTIVELY agree to ?
Yes we have some. But we are at early days yet. There is Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Principles of Democracy, The Geneva Convention. But these in turn will evolve further to meet new
challenges of the future.In some parts of Pakistan, honor killing are THE NORM. Can you please tell us why this is wrong,
assuming you think so ?
How can that be norm of "collective" conscious. It only happens in Pakistan, Duh?
I'm telling you that European success came from merciless colonialism, i.e. murder and pillaging.
I'm not saying no one else did it but since you mentioned Europeans, I just think you should know
the full history. The people of the third world havent forgotten.
Yes, some have, India for instances. India, does not look back to its colonial past but to its future and as result it is becoming one of the fastest growing IT hub in the world. You gain nothing by looking to the past mquran! Japan was obliterated with two Atomics Bombs but did they
wallow in their misfortune? No. They looked to the future and abandoned their imperial past and incoporated many of the Principles of Democracy and Personal liberty into their own society. And that has allowed them to become one of the most economically and techonologically advanced
countries in the world.I agree that its possible to evolve without any scripture. Its like walking without any map, you can still get there.
So why do you make scripture your REASON?
Succesful in EVERYTHING ? oh boy...even western thinkers themselves bemoan the decline of the west and u claim success in everything ? Look up the word 'delusional', pal.
Yes they are. They are successful in terms economic sucess, personal liberty, democracy, science, techonolgy etc. etc. and the list goes on... But Eurpean Model is not Utopia. It does not claimed to be Utopia. It is not perfect and it will never will be. But what is available so far is much
much better than what was available in the past. And having lived under a Oppressive government where I was denied my personal liberty and the freedom to speak my mind, I find European democracy
a Paradise! -) If I am delusional then you must be BLIND.No, Im asking you, if you think it's barbaric, WHY DO YOU THINK SO ? Point me to this 'collective
human ethos' you keep going on about. I want to see it.
Let me ask you this question DO YOU THINK ITS BARBARIC AND WHY?
You claim moral evolution has been achieved. This is all rubbish, sadly. Nothing but arrogance and haughtiness simply by looking 'universal declarations'. You can declare world hunger to be abolished, will that make food magically appear to starving ethiopians.
Ha ha -) Do you think telling people to make Quran as their REASON the WORLD HUNGER WILL DISSAPPEAR OVERNIGHT? I don't think so! You are living in "Scritpure-cukoo Land"!
That's a very good question. What does 'success' entail here? Is conducting colonialist and post-colonialist projects leading to situations where 9 year old kids work for peanuts a 'success'
,I wonder?Yep, typical "Islamic" thinking. Blame it someone else! Japan and Germany mquran came from devastation of war and conquest to become leading nations of this world. Looking to the future achieves success. Looking to the past will make people just like you blaming others for their
failures. Grow up. Take charge of your destiny. Don't live in the past, get out of the 6th century Arabia of chopping limbs etc.Al-Quraan provides a criteria which transcends human subjectivity. This is why the very antithesis of 'ribaa' is the establishment of others in the world. But of course, being a 7th century text,
it must be barbaric in thinking so (sic)How does chopping limbs trascending human subjectivity?
There is no 'collective human ethos' except in Lote Tree's imagination.
Perhaps if take your head of scripture then you can see that we are on a evolutionary path...We have come very far from our violent beginings but there is very far far to go yet. There will be many more set backs on the way. But humanity will proceed in the evolutionary path as God intended...
Regards,
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I don't seem to get this through to you at all can I!
Let me ask you differently - Are you saying your translation is the only valid one and every other translations that have ever been done are WRONG? Even translations done by Native Arabic speakers like Rashad Khalifa? OK, understood! - only your translation is
perfect others are invalid. Lets leave it at that...Look, you're a civilised person of the modern age. You need to exercise some REASON. The Question which zenje and i posed to you is simple does the fact that there are many translations saying 'x' make it so ? Can you possibly verify it if you don't know the language ?
Whether or not my translation is correct is something you cannot measure by simply looking at popular translations. Unless of course, you worship the populous.
Again. I can't seem to make you understand! So I repeat
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I have already said by OUR PRESENT STANDARDS what happened in the past is WRONG and yes immoral. But we have evolved since then. The MIGHT IS RIGHT morality was accepted "norm" in the past but not anymore - do you understand?
So its wrong now. Was it ok BACK THEN (please note this operative phrase) ? IF it was ok back then , by what criteria do you say so ?
Yes we have some. But we are at early days yet. There is Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Principles of Democracy, The Geneva Convention. But these in turn will evolve further to meet new
challenges of the future.Right, so your criteria is simply the conceptual declaration. Whether or not people actually follow it is immaterial.
According to history, in the enlightenment,Paine, Locke, Voltaire and co already declared these 'rights of man'. Yet even after this evolutionary act in which man progressed, the world witnessed acts like
- aparthied
- the elimination of the native abrogines in australia
- the holocaust
so funnily, declarations don't really mean much.
How can that be norm of "collective" conscious. It only happens in Pakistan, Duh?
That's what I'm saying. YOU claim the criteria is the 'collective human conscious'. If there are sections of humanity still practising aberrant acts, you must not consider them human enough. You have been intoxicated by modernism so much, I imagine, that you forget other cultures do exist and are in fact, human.
Yes, some have, India for instances. India, does not look back to its colonial past but to its future and as result it is becoming one of the fastest growing IT hub in the world.
You gain nothing by looking to the past mquran!
Japan was obliterated with two Atomics Bombs but did they
wallow in their misfortune? No. They looked to the future and abandoned their imperial past and incoporated many of the Principles of Democracy and Personal liberty into their own society. And that has allowed them to become one of the most economically and techonologically advanced
countries in the world.Notice your underlined phrase above 'you gain nothing by looking at the past'. Can I ask you then what you're looking at history for ? And I quote
With due respects to you, please read history...
I think what you wish to do is to exalt your worship of the present dominant culture. The dominant culture does enshrine some Quranic values but reject others. The dominant culture also built thier culture by merciless exploitation, the consequences of which still reverberates in the world today.
As I said, what kind of a culture allows 9 year old kids to work for peanuts to produce items which they sell for tens of pounds ? That's a crime and a half but funnily your morally advanced self missed that.
So why do you make scripture your REASON?
Because it works. Far better than anything i've read from human beings. It really captures the human condition for me. Also, I've been fortunate enough not to be inflicted with modern-tosis.
Yes they are. They are successful in terms economic sucess, personal liberty, democracy, science, techonolgy etc. etc. and the list goes on... But Eurpean Model is not Utopia. It does not claimed to be Utopia. It is not perfect and it will never will be. But what is available so far is much
much better than what was available in the past. And having lived under a Oppressive government where I was denied my personal liberty and the freedom to speak my mind, I find European democracy
a Paradise! If I am delusional then you must be BLIND.LOL..it never claimed to be utopia ? Life must be very hunky-dory in Mars, huh ?
Ever read Fukuyama's The end of history and the last man ? Or Huntingdons 'the clash of civilisations...' ? That's EXACTLY what they're saying..that this present dominant civilisation is IT.
Funnily, Marx asserted that the communist state would be the end of history as well by misappropriating Hegel's dialectic theory.
Before that, the French Encylopaedists thought the fall of French monarch would lead to the fall of all monarchies and the rise of the nation state, thus leading to the ideal world.
We humans have always been arrogant enough to think we know more than Allah, but we are nothing but tiny specks.
You find European Democracy a paradise? Wonderful, I hope you never get to drink the blood on which it was built.
Let me ask you this question DO YOU THINK ITS BARBARIC AND WHY?
Why are you afraid to answer this question ? Afraid that your inherent racism will manifest itself ?
I think it would be barbaric because al-quraan never mandated so. It mandates the equivalency law not hand-amputation for thieves.
Yep, typical "Islamic" thinking. Blame it someone else! Japan and Germany mquran came from devastation of war and conquest to become leading nations of this world. Looking to the future achieves success. Looking to the past will make people just like you blaming others for their
failures. Grow up. Take charge of your destiny. Don't live in the past, get out of the 6th century Arabia of chopping limbs etc.Quite the racist, aren't you? 'Islamic thinking' is a phrase you don't seem to understand yet you don't mind plugging 1.2 billion people with a label. Do you guys still wear the hoods and burn the cross these days or do you use more liberal and enlightening language?
Ha ha Do you think telling people to make Quran as their REASON the WORLD HUNGER WILL DISSAPPEAR OVERNIGHT? I don't think so! You are living in "Scritpure-cukoo Land"!
A quranic order would eradicate these industries which are part of the European civilisation you worship so much. That would be a good start, but I have the feeling that workers of certain ethnic groups don't matter to you so long as you languish in the paradise you claim to abide in.
At least now, your true colours are coming out. You claim admiration for the dominant European culture yet refuse to decry the bloody, exploitative foundations on which this culture is built. Those people must be less than human for you, right ? 'Collective human conscious' ? ...LOL.
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salaam wakas
Firstly, what is the specific test you are talking about? Does it work on male & female? Is it widely available so all people can use it?
There are infidelity tests like "Check Mate Semen Detection Kit" e.g. and it works on both sexes. Probably there are more I don't know of. I'm not sure if it's available all over the world.
Let me ask a few questions as well
A woman KNOWS that she's being cheated on. Her husband is on "business trips" again and she finds out somehow which hotel he will spend the night. She calls three more witness ready to catch him red-handed but they fail to catch him in action her hunch was right he's with another woman. They know for sure that the two had an affair but they have no witness. Now is the flogging applicable?
Let's just imagine a new case. A man is suspicious of his wife and decides to get a paternity test done. You know they have 99.9 % accuracy rate. He learns that his child is not from him. But he hasn't got four witnesses. What's the Quranic law in these cases?
Peace...
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Whether or not my translation is correct is something you cannot measure by simply looking at popular translations. Unless of course, you worship the populous.
Yes I can. I can say to you why is your translation different from the rest? When everyone else translated apples into apples but you have translated as oranges - do you not understand this?
So its wrong now. Was it ok BACK THEN (please note this operative phrase) ? IF it was ok back then , by what criteria do you say so ?
Let say this in few words Back then we were not evolved enough to see it as "wrong". But human consciouness has evolved to see it as wrong.
According to history, in the enlightenment,Paine, Locke, Voltaire and co already declared these 'rights of man'. Yet even after this evolutionary act in which man progressed, the world witnessed acts like
- aparthied
- the elimination of the native abrogines in australia
- the holocaust
The Quran appeared 1400 years ago. Why did it not stop all the above happening?
How can that be norm of "collective" conscious. It only happens in Pakistan, Duh?
That's what I'm saying. YOU claim the criteria is the 'collective human conscious'.
Yes. The word is "COLLECTIVE" consciousness. Can you not see that human beings as a whole are slowly letting go of their violent past? But still the acts of savagery goes on. But on a evolutionary level we are striving to become more civilised...
Notice your underlined phrase above 'you gain nothing by looking at the past'. Can I ask you then what you're looking at history for ? And I quote
I look at history to see where we have been before. It is looking at history that we can gleam the evolutinary path of humanity...
I think what you wish to do is to exalt your worship of the present dominant culture. The dominant culture does enshrine some Quranic values but reject others. The dominant culture also built thier culture by merciless exploitation, the consequences of which still reverberates in the world today.
I worship no such culture. I look at what is best. Democracy and Principles of Personal Liberty best serves Humanity. It is nothing to do with Dominancy.
As I said, what kind of a culture allows 9 year old kids to work for peanuts to produce items which they sell for tens of pounds ? That's a crime and a half but funnily your morally advanced self missed that.
Children aged 9 worked in the coal mines in the past and died inhaling coal dust. This rarely happens now. So this is an IMPROVEMENT.
So why do you make scripture your REASON?
Because it works. Far better than anything i've read from human beings. It really captures the human condition for me.
Thats good I am happy for you. But I will stick to democracy and principles of personal liberty.
Also, I've been fortunate enough not to be inflicted with modern-tosis.
Thats good for you. Democracy and Personal Liberty allows people to live in dark caves of past history. That is the beauty of Democracy and Personal Liberty -)
Ever read Fukuyama's The end of history and the last man ? Or Huntingdons 'the clash of civilisations...' ? That's EXACTLY what they're saying..that this present dominant civilisation is IT.
Caveman like how did you manage to read their works -)
Just kidding -) ...thats how humanity evolves mquran, continually questioning the very basis of its existence...Funnily, Marx asserted that the communist state would be the end of history as well by misappropriating Hegel's dialectic theory.
Before that, the French Encylopaedists thought the fall of French monarch would lead to the fall of all monarchies and the rise of the nation state, thus leading to the ideal world.
Can you not see the evolution in above. First we had tyrannical rulers, these rulers gave away to monarchy and the monarchy is giving away to democracy and democracy will give away to? who knows...
You find European Democracy a paradise? Wonderful, I hope you never get to drink the blood on which it was built.
Well at least my head will not be chopped off for speaking my mind! And think that is important too...
I think it would be barbaric because al-quraan never mandated so.
So because of Quran did not mandated that is why for you it is BARBARIC? Does not your INDIVIDUAL CONSCIOUS tells you it is BARBARIC? Can you see the difference between you and me? I understand it to be barbaric you are merely following what scripture tells you. You have abdicated your REASON, your individual conscious to SCRIPTURE. Why do you despise your own reason?
Quite the racist, aren't you? 'Islamic thinking' is a phrase you don't seem to understand yet you don't mind plugging 1.2 billion people with a label. Do you guys still wear the hoods and burn the cross these days or do you use more liberal and enlightening language?
No mquran I am no racist. You called me liberal. How can I be racist then? And I told you what mean by "Islamic Thinking". Islamic thinking is when you make SCRIPTURE your REASON.
A quranic order would eradicate these industries which are part of the European civilisation you worship so much. That would be a good start, but I have the feeling that workers of certain ethnic groups don't matter to you so long as you languish in the paradise you claim to abide in.
The fact that Quran has been here for 1400 has helped has it? A quranic order will eradicate these industries? Pipe dreams mquran! Scripture-Cukoo-Land" Pipe dreams.
At least now, your true colours are coming out. You claim admiration for the dominant European culture yet refuse to decry the bloody, exploitative foundations on which this culture is built.
Islamic Empires where built on Bloody exploitative foundations! Every empire has been like this. You can't single out any one of them. You can look how far we have come from our bloody past to the present. But human's bloody history is not over. There will be many more bloody things happening in the future. But kicking and screaming will follow God's intenteded evolutionary path...
Those people must be less than human for you, right ? 'Collective human conscious' ? ...LOL.
Appealing to human emotions now mquran? But you are wrong.
I have embraced humanity from Shaine Indians of North America to the aboriginals of Australia. I celebrate the best of humanity and also try to come to terms with worst of humanity. But humanity will evolve according to God's plan and I have no doubt about it...Regards,
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Peace mq,lt..all
I can say to you why is your translation different from the rest? When everyone else translated apples into apples but you have translated as oranges - do you not understand this?
There must be some misunderstanding here deliberate or otherwise, mq and the others have been trying to say that u should translate and understand the language itself by yourself rather than going by what is popular or 'accepted'. Examining things oneself leads to conclusions that can be dramatically different from the 'norm' and the 'norm' isn't necessarily 'right'.
The Quran appeared 1400 years ago. Why did it not stop all the above happening?
Do you honestly think the scripture should be/is some kind of magic book that will 'force' people and make decisions and choices for them leaving them shrivelled husks of their former free choice making selves? It's supposed to be a guide...a hint book if you will...a short cut even...a manual...i could go on...
Can you not see that human beings as a whole are slowly letting go of their violent past? But still the acts of savagery goes on. But on a evolutionary level we are striving to become more civilised...
No, i can't see them letting go of their violent past just changing the methods to get it more acceptable to the times...on one hand you say it still goes on and on the other hand, on the collective human conciousness/evolutionary level it's not? Should that not make a difference in actual actions? Or just saying that we are evolved according to the times and drawing up nice 'evolved' charts and declarations give us nice warm fuzzy feelings inside no matter what the actions might be?
I look at history to see where we have been before. It is looking at history that we can gleam the evolutinary path of humanity...
Then surely the rise and fall of civilisations might shed some light on the climb to and the reversions of 'morality' in the ages?
I have embraced humanity from Shaine Indians of North America to the aboriginals of Australia.
Then you give a statement like that and say mq is appealing to human emotions? I must have shed a tear there or two reading it, quite heady emotional stuff...
Nadia
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peace b_a,
If the test checks for semen, does it still work if the male wears a condom? If not, your so-called solution has failed. And I think you know its reasonable to assume its not available all over the world, thus your so-called solution has failed.
A woman KNOWS that she's being cheated on. Her husband is on "business trips" again and she finds out somehow which hotel he will spend the night. She calls three more witness ready to catch him red-handed but they fail to catch him in action her hunch was right he's with another woman. They know for sure that the two had an affair but they have no witness. Now is the flogging applicable?
A hunch is not evidence. If he is with another woman then he would have to justify/explain to his wife why she was there. Its not for a court of law if it cant be proven illicit sex took place.
Let's just imagine a new case. A man is suspicious of his wife and decides to get a paternity test done. You know they have 99.9 % accuracy rate. He learns that his child is not from him. But he hasn't got four witnesses. What's the Quranic law in these cases?
Correction - "He learns that his child is unlikely to be his." (1 in 1000 chance the test is incorrect). Therefore, its still not proven. Furthermore, this test is not available worldwide.
What it seems you are suggesting is adapting the principles of law in al quran for the present day. I do not have an inherent problem with this but I personally have not reviewed the law in 'the reading' so I cannot say what flexibility there is or how it can be implemented. Such a study would be fruitful, I would imagine. Like most questions, all it needs is a little research.Wakas
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I don't trust human reasoning, I trust Allah.
What can I say to above zenje? mquran seem to have forgotten that Araham himself, the first monotheist, came to the notion of monotheistic God using his Reason Alone!
While it is true that Abraham refused to be of the sheep, you need to remember that it is ALLAH who guided him. This is what you seem to discount, yes, we need to have the initiative, but it is the GOD who leads us to the straight path/truth. Without WHOM we are totally lost, no matter the amount of (rhyme or) reason you can muster. -
Salaam all,
My point was if all translators translate the same words in same way then this has more weight than mquran self translations of this word, does it not?
The overwhelming majority of translators and scholars translate salat as prayer. They translate zakaa' as religious tithe. They translate khimar as headcover. And they have totally mistranslated 43. Again, these are the overwhelming numbers.
If you obey the majority of people on earth, they will divert you from the path of GOD. They follow only conjecture; they only guess.
One.
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Hello Nadia,
Peace mq,lt..all
I can say to you why is your translation different from the rest? When everyone else translated apples into apples but you have translated as oranges - do you not understand this?
There must be some misunderstanding here deliberate or otherwise, mq and the others have been trying to say that u should translate and understand the language itself by yourself rather than going by what is popular or 'accepted'. Examining things oneself leads to conclusions that can be dramatically different from the 'norm' and the 'norm' isn't necessarily 'right'.
What you saying in effect is that I should also learn Biblical Hebrew in order to understand the Bible? Or Ancient Greek to understand the New Testament? or Ancient Sanskrit to understand the Bhagavad Gita?
The Quran appeared 1400 years ago. Why did it not stop all the above happening?
Do you honestly think the scripture should be/is some kind of magic book that will 'force' people and make decisions and choices for them leaving them shrivelled husks of their former free choice making selves?
I think you misunderstood the point I was trying to make to mquran. I told him that the very existence of Universal Declarations of Human Rights did not mean the world would be made into a nice place as he implied.
It's supposed to be a guide...a hint book if you will...a short cut even...a manual...i could go on...
You are right Nadia, it is a GUIDE.
Can you not see that human beings as a whole are slowly letting go of their violent past? But still the acts of savagery goes on. But on a evolutionary level we are striving to become more civilised...
No, i can't see them letting go of their violent past just changing the methods to get it more acceptable to the times...on one hand you say it still goes on and on the other hand, on the collective human conciousness/evolutionary level it's not?
Well, Nadia, in the ancient times Victor always chopped the heads off the male inhabitants of the city and made woman and children into slaves and concubines, this was accepted as norm. But not anymore. So can you see we have evolved just a bit since then?
I look at history to see where we have been before. It is looking at history that we can gleam the evolutinary path of humanity...
Then surely the rise and fall of civilisations might shed some light on the climb to and the reversions of 'morality' in the ages?
But we make progress. The progress is slow. But we are progressing.
I have embraced humanity from Shaine Indians of North America to the aboriginals of Australia.
Then you give a statement like that and say mq is appealing to human emotions? I must have shed a tear there or two reading it, quite heady emotional stuff... -)
No Nadia, mquran said I should be aware of the Blood on which Europe was built on. This pandering to emotions. You are not guilty of Nazism as an individual and neither am I. I am not as individual guilty of the crimes of the past. I was born innocent like everyone else...
And also mquran said I was a racist. And I told him how can I be racist when he called me a liberal. And how can I be racist when I have embraced humanity from Shaine Indians of North America to the aboriginals of Australia. This was not meant pander to emotions but state a fact I can never be racist. I celebrate the best of humanity as well as try to come to terms to the worst of humanity...
Regards,
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I don't trust human reasoning, I trust Allah.
What can I say to above zenje? mquran seem to have forgotten that Araham himself, the first monotheist, came to the notion of monotheistic God using his Reason Alone!
While it is true that Abraham refused to be of the sheep, you need to remember that it is ALLAH who guided him. This is what you seem to discount, yes, we need to have the initiative, but it is the GOD who leads us to the straight path/truth. Without WHOM we are totally lost, no matter the amount of (rhyme or) reason you can muster.
God does guide us Zenje, when we listen to our Reason. That is what Abraham did. He listened to his reason. It was through the human intellect that Abraham came to the notion of the monotheism. When we use our own initiative, God guides us. Reason is the Guidance that God has embedded in each individual so that the individual will search for God and find it within himself. Reason is the "homing" device that God has implemented in us so that we can be guided to our Creator, who is the source of all our meaning in life...
Regards,
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Dear Lote tree
i get what you mean on most of your points, but i think there is a slight misunderstanding on that one
What you saying in effect is that I should also learn Biblical Hebrew in order to understand the Bible? Or Ancient Greek to understand the New Testament? or Ancient Sanskrit to understand the Bhagavad Gita?
I'm not sure i'm going in Nadia's sense, but it's not really about learning the language - we know that not everybody can learn arabic to the extent of being able to understand it enough in order to detect misinterpretations. How could we, if a majority of educated arabs are unable to do so. It all and always comes back to trusting in God and to understand with your heart. Only he can guide you and he guides the people only when they are ready. This is outside organized religion and outside the books. Nevertheless, the scripture(s) remain(s) a guiding light...but only if God wishes them to be that for you. And that is also why you'll never know for sure if you actually are guided. Even though personnaly i believe that the extent of inner peace is an indicator.
Elke
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Peace Lotetree,
What you saying in effect is that I should also learn Biblical Hebrew in order to understand the Bible? Or Ancient Greek to understand the New Testament? or Ancient Sanskrit to understand the Bhagavad Gita?
You are relying on the people who translate whenever you read a translation are you not? If there are contradictions in a translation you HAVE to go to the source language to find out how and why, y'know regular detective deduction work...you might 'get' the contadiction but you can't resolve it unless you have evidence of how it 'should' be according to your study of the contradiction. The more is better mentality should not be there at all whether it's in a translation or otherwise...because that is just like assuming that the victor's who wrote history wrote it in the most objective way possible...or that if the majority does something one way than that's the right way to do it...
If you notice in this forum, the quran study involves looking at such contradictions and resolving them...so i for a moment, was surprised at you stating that if 'everyone' translates it one way then thats right...
And according to your above post, it should be corrected as follows If i see a contradiction in my TRANSLATION of a text, it is going to be immensely difficult and fraught with many seemingly unsurmountable obstacles, the chance that i can resolve it (with proper evidence) unless i verify it for myself going back to the ORIGINAL language of the text.
Or if you don't want to go down that route, when the next person who asks you, say for example, why you think spoils of war is in the quran along with captive calimshite women and the harem of plenty...Lo! a multiple choice of answers you can give
a)Well because everyone says it is, of course i haven't actually verified the language itself but....
b)I've read it my friend! My eyes do not decieve...of course, i don't know the actual language but thats a mere piffle when translators abound!
c)Because!
d) Why it's practically tradition! It has to be in there doesn't it? All scripture have a bit of the captive slave women bit! Adds to the drama!
e) Look! A Wookie on Endor!I think you misunderstood the point I was trying to make to mquran. I told him that the very existence of Universal Declarations of Human Rights did not mean the world would be made into a nice place as he implied.
I was also trying to tell you that such declarations are a mere cat's vomit if not followed...and that goes for all such guides...they are absolutely nothing if not followed except as reminders to the 'worthy'...it is not evidence of 'evolved conciousness' as such 'guides' have been recieved by men in all ages as per the scripture.
So explain to me again exactly what is evolved if we already had revolutionary ideas through the times and reversions as well as universal guides and declarations after all God's message including scripture was and is universal...just what is the evolved bit here that wasn't there before previously?
We don't hack off heads but shoot with bullets? We don't rape and pillage but we just pillaged and dare i say raped iraq? or is that still in the process? We don't hold women and children captive? When entire families are captive and deprived of their freedom to what was theirs in israel? Oh of course they can always move to jordan...just a wee bit of a pain in the posterior but hey the way is there...of course the captive women and children (in the past?) could always get out of the cells if only they had the key...
You are right Nadia, it is a GUIDE.
Some people just like wandering around aimlessly waiting for that voice to guide them i guess...Luuuke...use the force...Luuke....
Well, Nadia, in the ancient times Victor always chopped the heads off the male inhabitants of the city and made woman and children into slaves and concubines, this was accepted as norm. But not anymore. So can you see we have evolved just a bit since then?
Addressed above...just a slight change in method, plan stays the same...human nature stays the same...
No Nadia, mquran said I should be aware of the Blood on which Europe was built on. This pandering to emotions. You are not guilty of Nazism as an individual and neither am I. I am not as individual guilty of the crimes of the past. I was born innocent like everyone else...
Of course lt i'm not saying you were born a sinner...just was a tad touched by the poetry in that statement where you embraced the people in all the whole wide world..made me sniffle, i think...
Regards,
Nadia
