When are the four restricted months in the year?

[jkhan]

Well for me Traditional acceptance four restricted months are simply not acceptable... It is so simple within Quran...
Quran has mentioned MONTHS are passed.. Not month passed.. So.. If they start to fight after consecutive 3 months.. Perhaps verse may tally.. One more month is balance.. Which they have taken 07th month.. So.. When restricted MONTHS are passed never matches.. Coz 07th month is single..

Further the conventional choice of 3 consecutive winter months in middle east give us a great hint... I know Arabic months are not constant with season nowadays.. But it might have been fixed old days.. Coz no way they can name months based on seasonal changes and it doesn't befit in the end.. So choosing a summer month in between 07th month never consistent..
04 consecutive winter months perfectly matches with Haj also.. Calling all the people for four consecutive months in summer won't help the purpose of haj.. It further clarifies, fasting is never in winter months since it is purely allocated for Haj...
One thing is clear... Arabic conventional months are solar based and fixed but unfortunately nowadays it is totally against it... If the name of the month doesn't predict what season it is then no one would keep such a name for a month.. Unless they are global names.. But every language and major nation has a way of calling their month/s based on their respective season even they have four season or two..

[Euphoric]

Peace.. When you stated that I have no clue, I was happy..
But, when you mentioned again giving four Arabic months, i am not happy.. lol..

Are there 12 Arabic Lunar months mentioned in Quran? For me not a single Arabic month is mentioned in Quran.. So, how would one judge according to Quran what are the four Restricted Months while Quran has never mentioned 12 months?...
Here comes logic... There are certain things well known to a community... Do you agree?... for example people of Muhamed were well known what Masjid Al Haram was and where its location was... But for us honestly it is not... Coz our task with Masjid Al Haram is no more... Same, They knew what those four restricted months were coz they were well known and much required for their lifestyle... But not for us any more.. But God restricted four months with intent...

but for research purposes, it is fine.. but those four months were continuous...

Yes of course, they knew. It was speaking to those who follow that concept.

[Euphoric]

The well known months can refer to the calendar with the month names we have currently?

But the Quran teaches to use both the sun and moon. The previous Scriptures also teach a luni solar calendar.

Even the month names of the current Arab calendar have names of seasons such as rabih alawal, rabih attani, djoemada alawal, djoemada attani. Which means first spring, second spring, first drieness, second drieness.

They were all in Arabia and their culture.

Qada means to become idle and not do anything.

[algummlil]

I have come to the conclusion that intercalary is forbidden according to 937. So there can't be followed a luni-solar calendar. Else we wouldn't have 12 months per year. We can use 12 months by following 12 lunar months.. It's that simple. We can count the solar year to know in which seasons we are..

[jemby97]

How sure are we that 936 is referring to months?

It could also refers to days? or heavan n earth? or referring to all of them?

What does Hurumun means in this context?

Thanks all

[algummlil]

How sure are we that 936 is referring to months?

It could also refers to days? or heavan n earth? or referring to all of them?

What does Hurumun means in this context?

Thanks all

https//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=9&verse=36#(9361)

Sahr in Arabic means month. Doesn't God say, there are 12 months, 4 of them are restricted?

We know that during the restricted months war is not allowed. That's because people will come and perform their pilgrimage.

[jemby97]

what if 936 goes

936 The count the months with God is twelve months; in the book of God; the day; He created the heavens and the earth; four of them are restricted (inviolable) ......

"four of them are referring" to these four (RED)

We are assuming it is referrring to months but what if it is referring to all four?

[Euphoric]

https//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=9&verse=36#(9361)

Sahr in Arabic means month. Doesn't God say, there are 12 months, 4 of them are restricted?

We know that during the restricted months war is not allowed. That's because people will come and perform their pilgrimage.

Shahr also is rooted with full moon. They're related.

[jkhan]

what if 936 goes

936 The count the months with God is twelve months; in the book of God; the day; He created the heavens and the earth; four of them are restricted (inviolable) ......

"four of them are referring" to these four (RED)

We are assuming it is referrring to months but what if it is referring to all four?

well... that's bit bizarre speculation...It doesn't support with the flow of the verse... further with grammar ...

in verse 936 word 'Iddah' (Number) is taken to refer as 'MinHA' (From It)... so, you claim cannot be taken into consideration..

[jkhan]

2247 “And they urge you to hasten the punishment. But Allah will never fail in His promise. And indeed, a Day with your Lord is like a thousand years of those which you count.

1712 “And We have made the night and day two signs, and We erased the sign of the night and made the sign of the day visible that you may seek bounty from your Lord and may know the number of years and the account . And everything We have set out in detail.”

1005 “It is He who made the sun a shining light and the moon a derived light and determined for it phases - that you may know the number of years and account . Allah has not created this except in truth. He details the signs for a people who know”

Above verses are manifest and detailed clearly...it means SUN as well MOON should be taken for knowing the number of years and account.. But one would wonder according verse 2247 what God refers? Coz a DAY with God is equal to 1000 Years of what we count..
So .. normally we count for a year 365 days (Solar).. so 1000 years of solar is 365 X 1000
But if we apply Lunar it won't be the same obviously..
So.. in my recognition, i presume Moon and Sun has different aspects / purposes while counting...

Or is it okay to claim since in 2247 it is stated using the word "LIKE THOUSAND YEARS" .. perhaps not exactly but nearly..

[algummlil]

what if 936 goes

936 The count the months with God is twelve months; in the book of God; the day; He created the heavens and the earth; four of them are restricted (inviolable) ......

"four of them are referring" to these four (RED)

We are assuming it is referrring to months but what if it is referring to all four?

it's refering to the months of restriction when there is no war. It teaches that 4 months are used for the people to come and perform the pilgrimage.

[algummlil]

2247 “And they urge you to hasten the punishment. But Allah will never fail in His promise. And indeed, a Day with your Lord is like a thousand years of those which you count.

1712 “And We have made the night and day two signs, and We erased the sign of the night and made the sign of the day visible that you may seek bounty from your Lord and may know the number of years and the account . And everything We have set out in detail.”

1005 “It is He who made the sun a shining light and the moon a derived light and determined for it phases - that you may know the number of years and account . Allah has not created this except in truth. He details the signs for a people who know”

Above verses are manifest and detailed clearly...it means SUN as well MOON should be taken for knowing the number of years and account.. But one would wonder according verse 2247 what God refers? Coz a DAY with God is equal to 1000 Years of what we count..
So .. normally we count for a year 365 days (Solar).. so 1000 years of solar is 365 X 1000
But if we apply Lunar it won't be the same obviously..
So.. in my recognition, i presume Moon and Sun has different aspects / purposes while counting...

Or is it okay to claim since in 2247 it is stated using the word "LIKE THOUSAND YEARS" .. perhaps not exactly but nearly..

But do you believe we should use a luni-solar calendar? Or should we juse use a lunar calendar and for other things a solar calendar? Those don't need intercalation of a whole 13th month. While God says we need to follow a 12 month system?

I used to believe in a luni-solar calendar. But what does 937 say about intercalation..?
After reading 937 it also sounds strange to me now to combine the lunar and solar calendar.. It only results in problems with a 13th calendar once every 3-5 years..

[jkhan]

But do you believe we should use a luni-solar calendar? Or should we juse use a lunar calendar and for other things a solar calendar? Those don't need intercalation of a whole 13th month. While God says we need to follow a 12 month system?

I used to believe in a luni-solar calendar. But what does 937 say about intercalation..?
After reading 937 it also sounds strange to me now to combine the lunar and solar calendar.. It only results in problems with a 13th calendar once every 3-5 years..

Thank You...

Well I do understand your concern...
937 is clearly stated that intercalary is not entertained..
so let's dig history to certain extent... History always not reveal the exact truth but let's get some idea.. Why not 360 days instead 365 days in calendar ? Was there a 360 days calendar widely used in the history...
Okay.. why God seems to be hinting us that in a month 30 days.. i took this from a verse which says 60 poor people or two months.. it has an indirect advise equaling two months to 60 day perhaps..
if we take 360 days in a calendar year and consider lunar phases to be approximately 30 days.. would that be equal.. coz as per 937 IDDAH/Number is fixed with God.. whoever tried is to increase .. something fishy here...

[jkhan]

2247 “And they urge you to hasten the punishment. But Allah will never fail in His promise. And indeed, a Day with your Lord is like a thousand years of those which you count.

1712 “And We have made the night and day two signs, and We erased the sign of the night and made the sign of the day visible that you may seek bounty from your Lord and may know the number of years and the account . And everything We have set out in detail.”

1005 “It is He who made the sun a shining light and the moon a derived light and determined for it phases - that you may know the number of years and account . Allah has not created this except in truth. He details the signs for a people who know”

Above verses are manifest and detailed clearly...it means SUN as well MOON should be taken for knowing the number of years and account.. But one would wonder according verse 2247 what God refers? Coz a DAY with God is equal to 1000 Years of what we count..
So .. normally we count for a year 365 days (Solar).. so 1000 years of solar is 365 X 1000
But if we apply Lunar it won't be the same obviously..
So.. in my recognition, i presume Moon and Sun has different aspects / purposes while counting...

Or is it okay to claim since in 2247 it is stated using the word "LIKE THOUSAND YEARS" .. perhaps not exactly but nearly..

If the solar and lunar are not identical then there is a huge issue in the authenticity of what these verses speaks of...
I research a lot about 360 Days Calendar and it seems very fair that it should be 360 .. Even 360 degree also has a great history behind it... Anyway intelligent people of this forum, pls research don't get stuck with 365 days just coz it takes 365 days it takes earth to rotate full circle of sun.. Well.. I know it is a tricky matter for most but worth researching neutrally...
God simply said thousand years of what you count.. But God knows made sun and moon for counting.. But unless they are identical God must be specific saying like thousand years of what you count with sun. Or moon.. Both should be equal... 30 days / month in solar and lunar worth taking..

[Noon_waalqalami]

peace,

360 pertains to Babylonian math base-60 system
360 circle, 60 min/hr, 60 sec/min, 3600 sec/hr, etc.

references to years in Qur'an are all solar

see pregnancy and weaning calculations

https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9611033.msg429403#msg429403

[jkhan]

If you go through google or YouTube you may get some very good information about 360 days calendars... Needless I repeat here...

584 "And he who does not find - then a fast for two months consecutively before they touch one another; and he who is unable - then the feeding of sixty poor persons. That is for you to believe in Allah and His Messenger; and those are the limits Allah. And for the disbelievers is a painful punishment."

These are not mere assumptions.. But we'll intended placing of words.. It is a logical question what should raise why two months consecutively and 60 ? Why not 59 or 62 or 61. Or why not just any number like 25 or 10 .. Why chosen 60 while two consecutive months also mentioned parallely .?

As we discussed earlier God has manifestly stated 12 months in a Year.. God has mentioned word Year, Month and Day in Quran.. I am not sure He has mentioned Week..
So in God's book Year has 12 months.. So in His book month must have number of days or not? Yes.. It should have.. So.. When he stated in a Year 12 months then twelve months should consist inevitable number of fixed days..
Since God had intently placed in verse 584 two consecutive months and 60 it well within human knowledge that 60x6 =360...

If God's recognition a Year consists 360 Days then why we need 365 days and a leap year with 366..
Now those who believe in science and earth rotation around sun 365.24 better rethink what Quran says..
You could be also a victim of 937 without knowing to yourself.
Is 360 days so special.. Yes.. If you research 360 degree or 360 days calendars you will find so many interesting points to ponder.. 360 is an incredible number when you consider many aspects..

[algummlil]

Thank You...

Well I do understand your concern...
937 is clearly stated that intercalary is not entertained..
so let's dig history to certain extent... History always not reveal the exact truth but let's get some idea.. Why not 360 days instead 365 days in calendar ? Was there a 360 days calendar widely used in the history...
Okay.. why God seems to be hinting us that in a month 30 days.. i took this from a verse which says 60 poor people or two months.. it has an indirect advise equaling two months to 60 day perhaps..
if we take 360 days in a calendar year and consider lunar phases to be approximately 30 days.. would that be equal.. coz as per 937 IDDAH/Number is fixed with God.. whoever tried is to increase .. something fishy here...

Interesting. The Book of Enoch (Idris) which is being upholded by the Ethiopian Church speaks about a 364 day calendar with 4 uncalculated days and 360 calculated days etc.
The months there are 30 days.

But the calendar in that book is complex. It also talks about the distortion of the calendar and how the moon is misused.

Anyways, my question is. When should the 4 restricted months be according to the Quran?

[jkhan]

Interesting. The Book of Enoch (Idris) which is being upholded by the Ethiopian Church speaks about a 364 day calendar with 4 uncalculated days and 360 calculated days etc.
The months there are 30 days.

But the calendar in that book is complex. It also talks about the distortion of the calendar and how the moon is misused.

Anyways, my question is. When should the 4 restricted months be according to the Quran?

Well... I have already replied to you regarding four restricted months...
When something is in practice already God doesn't elaborate it again.. That's what I got from Quran.. For example Allah has explained certain things about haj but never explained what the well known months to perform haj... But simply said haj is in well known months.. So that's enough.. Coz people already knew what well months are..
Same.. People already knew what those fourlntha which are restricted... Coz Allah didn't change restricted months in time.. Purpose of haj and purpose of well known months are in my thorough understanding is over..

Do we have anything restricted in four months though we claim as believers.. As a believer one knows he trying his level best to avoid evil and practice what is good while accepting God..
So, what believera of modern day restrict in chosen four months..
Tey to grasp.. Purpose of restriction perhaps coming all the way from Nuh of not from Ibrahim bit with Mohamed and his immediate followers it is over.. Coz mission completed.. God's revelation through bool form is accomplished.. Purpose of haj is mostly to spread the message of God to people whomever it can reach in live manner with debate and discussion..
But message of God is in our finger tips now.. No more prophets.. No more new revelations..

[Noon_waalqalami]

peace,

roll back Perf558 count only 12 and skip the occasional 13th
start first month after the full moon after the spring equinox
end ramadan first month after full moon of summer solstice

2185 شهر shahru رمضان ramadan (heat cycle) الذى the one انزل descends فىه in it القران the Qur'an
P558 شهر shahru جمدى jumada (dried cycle) الاولى the first من from سنه sana اثنىن twosome وعشرىن and twenty (22)

https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PERF_558

http//astropixels.com/ephemeris/phasescat/phases0601.html

year ... new ... moon ) ... shahru/lunar cycle ... full moon
643 ... Mar 25 ... Mar 27 ... Jumādá al-ūlá ... ... .... Apr 10 full moon after spring equinox

Jumādá al-ūlá 30, 22 AH / April 25, 643 CE / Pharmouthi 30, the 1st indiction (Perf 55

643 ... Apr 24 ... Apr 26 ... 1 Jumādá al-ākhirah ... May 9 full moon
643 ... May 23 ... May 25 ... 2 Rajab ... ... ... ... ... Jun 7 full moon
643 ... Jun 21 ... Jun 23 ... 3 Sha‘bān ... ... ... ..... Jul 7 full moon after summer solstice
643 ... Jul 21 ... Jul 23 ... 4 Ramaḍān (start) ... ... Aug 5 full moon
643 ... Aug 20 ... Aug 22 ... (end fast) ... ... ... ... Sep 3 full moon

http//astropixels.com/ephemeris/moon/phases2001gmt.html

year ... new ... moon ) ... shahru/lunar cycle ... full moon
2022 ... Mar 2 ... Mar 4 ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... Mar 18 full moon today
2022 ... Apr 1 ... Apr 3 ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... Apr 16 full moon after spring equinox
2022 ... Apr 30 ... May 2 .... 1 ... ... ... ... ... ... ... May 16 full moon
2022 ... May 30 ... Jun 2 .... 2 ... ... ... ... ... ... ... Jun 14 full moon
2022 ... Jun 29 ... Jun 31 ... 3 ... ... ... ... ... ... ... Jul 13 full moon after summer solstice
2022 ... Jul 28 ... Jul 30 ... 4 Ramaḍān (start) ... ... Aug 12 full moon
2022 ... Aug 27 ... Aug 29 ... (end fast)

no hunting (4) months spring when most animals have babies to end of summer

[jkhan]

https//youtu.be/bXvBSB7o_-Q

I watched a numerous videos and read few article to know the exact meaning of Arabic months connecting with season... Well.. I found this video interesting...
Strangly dulkwada dulhaj muharram and Safar seams in ita meaning kind of restriction..
In some other I found ramadhan to be seventh month... Well.. No one keeps names of months away from nothing.. It should denote something special to those people. Either season or religious or something specific and unique to them.

In accordance, the modern day patten of months falling in every season is ridiculous... For sure.. It is mocking the meaning ...