WHY IBLIS CANNOT BE OTHER THAN...HOMO SAPIEN SAPIEN
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PEACE, /JM/,
These remain my stuck points.
Before he rebelled, Iblis was a malaika. So he had to avoid arrogance. When he rebelled and became arrogant, he got banned and disgraced.
You, Idol, and some others, continue to make the above claim, however, you have to produce an explicit ayat where Allah identifies Iblis as one of the malaika. Ayat, 234, at best, remains open-ended/allusory, and is not definitive of your position/argument. If Iblis was a malaika, then ayats 1649-50 and 234, are in stark contadiction, because ayats 1649-50 state that, both the dabbatin and the malaika do not disobey...they have no free-will.
God did not give Iblis the choice between good and evil. Iblis has no free will. But God caused/allowed him to rebel, and to become the devil.
Your above statement is contradictory. Did Allah cause or allow? If Allah caused Iblis to rebel, then, Iblis, had no choice in his actions, hence, how can he be sent to Hell for doing what he was created to do? Where is the mercy, justice, or logic in that? If Allah allowed him to rebel, then, Iblis, had a chioce. If Iblis had no free-will, as you claim, then how was he able to all of sudden choose to cease being obedient and become arrogant and rebellious?
You are saying God cannot have created evil. So, who have created Iblis/Shaytan ? Is Iblis/Shaytan self-created ? Are you sure you are not a Zoroastrian ? or an Manichaeist ?
I am a Muslim. Still, you did not answer my question...did Allah create something evil by nature? If Iblis/Shaitan, had no choice, then, Allah, created something from the beginning which was evil by nature, hence, the entire rhetorical question to Iblis from Allah, "why did you not prostrate etc...", is vain. If Allah created him to be evil and rebellious, then why the rhetorical question, it makes no sense? Iblis, from all accounts, was not created evil, because accoording to your argument, at one time, he was one of the malaika. Are you now saying some malaika were created evil and others weren't?
That's why I agree with Asad when he says
Hence, we must assume that his "rebellion" has a purely symbolic significance and is, in reality, the outcome of a specific function assigned to him by God. Satan fulfils a definite function in God's plan he is the eternal tempter who enables man to exercise his God-given freedom of choice between good and evil and, thus, to become a being endowed with moral free will.I have some problems with some of his statements. 1. he is assuming that Iblis was created evil, yet, Al-Quran makes no such claim. 2. Only Allah is eternal not Shaytan.
Let me ask you another question, can the Jinn be perceived by human beings? By perceived, I mean experienced through one or all of the five senses. If they cannot be experienced through the senses, then how are men influenced by them/how are they detected?
Looking forward to your response.
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Peace be upon you all,
Can I get an update of the position everyon holds regarding jinn? Especially PB. I assume you have done some fleshing out of your position by now. I would like to get back in the debate.
You are encouraged to re-enter the debate.
See my post to Post to /JM/, Sat May 14, 2005 559 am, for my stuck points.
Let me ask you another question, can the Jinn be perceived by human beings? By perceived, I mean experienced through one or all of the five senses. If they cannot be experienced through the sense, then how are men influenced by them?
Looking forward to your response.
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Salaams PB,All,
I think you honestly believe in the fairy type of Angels?
But i think/to me they are humans who are subservient to Allah.
So can you show where it says that Malaikaat always obey Allah or thats what they are made for - to obey him only or something like this ,if you still hold to your previous views that is.
Peace.
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PEACE. MZ357
I think you honestly believe in the fairy type of Angels?
On the contrary, I am a coldly rational person and that is why I insist on cold facts and not assumptions/allusions.
But i think/to me they are humans who are subservient to Allah.
You maybe correct. Can you now bring substantiation for your conjecture?
So can you show where it says that Malaikaat always obey Allah or thats what they are made for - to obey him only or something like this ,if you still hold to your previous views that is.
1649-50 And whatever creature that is in the heavens and that is in the earth makes obeisance to Allah (only), and the angels (too) and they do not show pride. They fear their Lord above them and do what they are commanded.
"Do what they are commanded", according to this ayat, is unqualified and explicit. Do you have an ayat where it explicitly states that the malaika can choose to disobey?
Peace.
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Salaams PB,
You said
"1649-50 And whatever creature that is in the heavens and that is in the earth makes obeisance to Allah (only), and the angels (too) and they do not show pride. They fear their Lord above them and do what they are commanded. "
This translation is somewhat wrong if i may say so.
- "whatever creature" doesn't accur in the ayah.
show us where the creature part especially is coming in from.
The "MA" ACCORDING TO qd = some/a certain (p524)
I think in this case the ?MA? is being used as a noun denoting objects in the heavens and the earth ,and according to QD its meaning is ?some? in such a case.
Here to me is a much better trans
1649
And to Allah they submit some (is) in the heavens and some in the earth OF THE MOVING CREATURES (ANIMALS) AND THE MALAIKAAT and they are not proud.And here is its replica in another part of the quran
2218
Do not you see that Allah they submit to him reasonables in the heavens and reasonables on the earth and the sun and the moon and the stars and the mountains and the trees AND THE ANIMALS AND MANY OF MANKIND and (there are) many is justified on whom the punishment and whomsoever disgraces Allah then (there is) not (for) him any to honour verily Allah does whatever He wills.From these two ayat?s MALAIKAAT = MANY OF MANKIND
Gods Blessings.
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PEACE, MZ357
PRIEST "1649-50 And whatever creature that is in the heavens and that is in the earth makes obeisance to Allah (only), and the angels (too) and they do not show pride. They fear their Lord above them and do what they are commanded. "
This translation is somewhat wrong if i may say so.
- "whatever creature" doesn't accur in the ayah.
show us where the creature part especially is coming in from.
1649 And to Allah doth obeisance all that is in the heavens and on earth, whether moving (living) creatures or the angels for none are arrogant (before their Lord).
1649 Walillahi yasjudu ma fee assamawati wama fee alardi min dabbatin walmalaikatu wahum la yastakbiroon
The "MA" ACCORDING TO qd = some/a certain (p524)
I think in this case the ?MA? is being used as a noun denoting objects in the heavens and the earth ,and according to QD its meaning is ?some? in such a case.
Here to me is a much better trans
1649 And to Allah they submit some (is) in the heavens and some in the earth OF THE MOVING CREATURES (ANIMALS) AND THE MALAIKAAT and they are not proud.
This makes some sense, in that, of the dabbatin, man does not always/consistently submit. I will think about your trans.
And here is its replica in another part of the quran
2218 Do not you see that Allah they submit to him reasonables in the heavens and reasonables on the earth and the sun and the moon and the stars and the mountains and the trees AND THE ANIMALS AND MANY OF MANKIND and (there are) many is justified on whom the punishment and whomsoever disgraces Allah then (there is) not (for) him any to honour verily Allah does whatever He wills.
From these two ayat?s MALAIKAAT = MANY OF MANKIND
Injecting malaikaat into ayat 2218, is very uncomfortable for me. I cannot, at this time anyway, accept your reasoning.
Please give me translation of the following in bold. This ayat, for me anyway, establishes that the Jinn are homo sapien sapiens.
726 'True, there were persons among mankind who took shelter with persons among the Jinns, but they increased them in folly.
726 Waannahu kana rijalun mina alinsi yaAAoothoona bi
rijalin mina aljinni fazadoohum rahaqa -
Salaams PB,
Jinn?s=people who don't live by a codified law from Allah
Anisa=familiar/polite/kind/social/delight anyone by good manners/be friendly.
726
And verily there were men among/from the social class/those of good manners who took refuge with men among the unsociable/who don?t abide by Gods law so they increased them in sin and arrogance and they thought as you thought that will never resurrect Allah anyone .
Salaams.
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PEACE, MZ357,
Salaams PB,
Jinn?s=people who don't live by a codified law from Allah
Anisa=familiar/polite/kind/social/delight anyone by good manners/be friendly.
726
And verily there were men among/from the social class/those of good manners who took refuge with men among the unsociable/who don?t abide by Gods law so they increased them in sin and arrogance and they thought as you thought that will never resurrect Allah anyone .
Salaams.
Thank you for your reply, but I wanted the translation for... rijalun/rijalin. Thanks.
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Salaams PB,
As i understand
Rijalun = Men/Males -active
Rijalin = Men/Males -relative toIts just sentance structure on which you use.
A linguist would know better.
Salaams.
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PEACE, /JM/,
These remain my stuck points.
Before he rebelled, Iblis was a malaika. So he had to avoid arrogance. When he rebelled and became arrogant, he got banned and disgraced.
You, Idol, and some others, continue to make the above claim, however, you have to produce an explicit ayat where Allah identifies Iblis as one of the malaika.
But there is no need of that.
And is explicit enough for me.Ayat, 234, at best, remains open-ended/allusory, and is not definitive of your position/argument. If Iblis was a malaika, then ayats 1649-50 and 234, are in stark contadiction, because ayats 1649-50 state that, both the dabbatin and the malaika do not disobey...they have no free-will.
I have already answered to that.
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you have to consider the quran as a whole. and don't contradict each other. They complement each other.
Assume a dog is said to be nice if he never bites.
So, my dog is a nice dog he has never bitten anyone.
One day, when my dog meets you, he suddenly bites you.
Can he still be said to be a nice dog ? No.This is the same with Iblis.
Assume something is said to be a malaika if it never disobeys to God's commands.
So, Iblis is a malaika it has never disobeyed to God's commands.
One day, when the human being is created, it disobeys to the God's command to prostrate to Adam.
Can it still be said to be a malaika ? No.God did not give Iblis the choice between good and evil. Iblis has no free will. But God caused/allowed him to rebel, and to become the devil.
Your above statement is contradictory. Did Allah cause or allow?
The term aghwahu denotes both "he caused him to err" or "he caused him to be disappointed" or "to fail in attaining his desire" (cf. Lane VI, 2304f.). (Asad)
If Allah caused Iblis to rebel, then, Iblis, had no choice in his actions, hence, how can he be sent to Hell for doing what he was created to do? Where is the mercy, justice, or logic in that?
Remember Iblis is no more than a symbolic force. So there is no need of mercy for it.
Where is the logic ?
The human being has free will. He can choose to obey or to disobey to God's commands.
Iblis/Shaytan is the name given to the force the human being follows when he chooses to disobey to God's commands.If Allah allowed him to rebel, then, Iblis, had a chioce. If Iblis had no free-will, as you claim, then how was he able to all of sudden choose to cease being obedient and become arrogant and rebellious?
No, Iblis had no choice.
No more than my dog when he bit you.
He is just fulfilling his function in God's plan.You are saying God cannot have created evil. So, who have created Iblis/Shaytan ? Is Iblis/Shaytan self-created ? Are you sure you are not a Zoroastrian ? or an Manichaeist ?
I am a Muslim. Still, you did not answer my question...did Allah create something evil by nature? If Iblis/Shaitan, had no choice, then, Allah, created something from the beginning which was evil by nature, hence, the entire rhetorical question to Iblis from Allah, "why did you not prostrate etc...", is vain.
If Allah created him to be evil and rebellious, then why the rhetorical question, it makes no sense?When God talks to the malaika, and the malaika respond him... Do you conclude malaika can physically reflect and talk (that they have a brain and vocal chords) ? I hope No.
This is nothing but rhetoric.Iblis, from all accounts, was not created evil, because accoording to your argument, at one time, he was one of the malaika. Are you now saying some malaika were created evil and others weren't?
A dog has no free will. Did my dog do evil when he bit you ? Maybe you think he did.
But my dog is neither evil nor good by nature. He just does what his instincts command him.
Good and evil are nothing but human concepts.That's why I agree with Asad when he says
Hence, we must assume that his "rebellion" has a purely symbolic significance and is, in reality, the outcome of a specific function assigned to him by God. Satan fulfils a definite function in God's plan he is the eternal tempter who enables man to exercise his God-given freedom of choice between good and evil and, thus, to become a being endowed with moral free will.I have some problems with some of his statements. 1. he is assuming that Iblis was created evil, yet, Al-Quran makes no such claim. 2. Only Allah is eternal not Shaytan.
Iblis will exist as long as there will be human beings.
Let me ask you another question, can the Jinn be perceived by human beings? By perceived, I mean experienced through one or all of the five senses. If they cannot be experienced through the senses, then how are men influenced by them/how are they detected?
Yes, of course, because, according to me, the jinns are the chiefs among the humans.
Peace (and sorry for my dog)
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Salaams JM,
you said
"Yes, of course, because, according to me, the jinns are the chiefs among the humans.
Remember Iblis is no more than a symbolic force"Do you believe that Jinns are Humans?but Iblis is not?
Gods Blessings.
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Salaams JM,
you said
"Yes, of course, because, according to me, the jinns are the chiefs among the humans.
Remember Iblis is no more than a symbolic force"Do you believe that Jinns are Humans?but Iblis is not?
Gods Blessings.
Yes, indeed.
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=41918&highlight=#41918peace
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Salaams JM,
Correct me if i am wrong.
But you are saying that iblis argued and disobeyed Allah although its a force .
Can this force reason if yes isn't it something alive?And whats the point of putting a force into hell - if it is not living /feeling e.t.c
Sorry if you have answered these before-as i havn't come accross any of these Q?
God is Great/and i don't reckon he will put things into hell uselessly.
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Salaams JM,
Correct me if i am wrong.
But you are saying that iblis argued and disobeyed Allah although its a force .
Can this force reason if yes isn't it something alive?No, Iblis cannot reason. It has no free will. It just fullfills its function.
And whats the point of putting a force into hell - if it is not living /feeling e.t.c
In the verses recounting the creation of Adam, Iblis is personalized, so, it is not illogic to say he will go to hell.
But, the important point is that people who follow Iblis will go to hell.
. As for those of them who follow you, I will fill Hell with you all!
For My servants, you shall have no authority over them, except those who are misled and follow you. And Hell, for all of those, shall be the appointed place.
That I will fill Hell with you and all those who follow you.To follow Iblis/shaytan = to follow one's pride, selfishness, to let oneself influence by misguiding people.
What is important is to understand the symbolic character of these verses, and to recognize what is rhetoric in them.
Peace
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Salaams JM,
you said" That I will fill Hell with you"
fill hell with iblis? what for when he doesn't feel he is not alive,is he?
If you make a toy but the toy cuts you by chance , so you will punish it by throwing it into the fire or something,will you?even though it can't feel ,its not living.
But no doubt we can in the end believe what we want even though if it is reality or not.
God Bless.
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Salaams JM,
you said" That I will fill Hell with you"
fill hell with iblis? what for when he doesn't feel he is not alive,is he?
If you make a toy but the toy cuts you by chance , so you will punish it by throwing it into the fire or something,will you?even though it can't feel ,its not living.
But no doubt we can in the end believe what we want even though if it is reality or not.
God Bless.
There is a lot of symbolism in the quran.
Those who consume the money of the orphans illicitly, in fact they are consuming fire in their bellies, and they will endure the Blaze.
Do you think that these people are really eating fire ?
Personally, I don't.And understanding these symbols is not always an easy task, for people like us who are used to looking at the concrete/scientific aspect of things.
Peace
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Salaams JM,
You said
Those who consume the money of the orphans illicitly, in fact they are consuming fire in their bellies, and they will endure the Blaze.?Do you think that these people are really eating fire?
Personally, I don't.?Do people think The God sent a book with symbols rather then a straight forward understandable writing, who would do this, would you do that if you were the God?
Certainly not me.
The best I could do ? using lanes. But please remember a word has a number of different meanings depending on the context its to be used in ,especially when we are translating or something,-I would say.
410
Indeed those who do away with wealth (of) orphans wrongfully only do away with in their concealment, (of) evil, and they will soon be burnt (in) blazing Fire.The quran doesn?t use symbolism ? I think, but is a lot of mistranslation and people take it as symbolism.
But you take it as you like.
God Bless.
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PEACE, /JM/,
I'll revisit Iblis in just a little bit, but first
PRIEST BOKMEI Let me ask you another question, can the Jinn be perceived by human beings? By perceived, I mean experienced through one or all of the five senses. If they cannot be experienced through the senses, then how are men influenced by them/how are they detected?
Yes, of course, because, according to me, the jinns are the chiefs among the humans
.So, while you believe, as I do that, the Jinns are homo sapien sapiens, you disagree that Iblis, himself, is a homo sapien sapien...is this your position?
What ayat(s) proves this to you that the Jinn are homo sapien sapiens/human beingd? For me, it is the following ayats
6130 "O ye assembly of Jinns and men! came there not unto you Messengers from amongst you, setting forth unto you My signs, and warning you of the meeting of this Day of yours?" They will say "We bear witness against ourselves." It was the life of this world that deceived them. So against themselves will they bear witness that they rejected Faith.
6130 Ya maAAshara aljinni walinsi alam yatikum rusulun minkum yaqussoona AAalaykum ayatee wayunthiroonakum liqaa yawmikum hatha qaloo shahidna AAala anfusina wagharrathumu alhayatu addunya washahidoo AAala anfusihim annahum kanoo kafireen
12109 Nor did We send before thee Messengers any but men, whom we did inspire,- (men) living in human habitations. Do they not travel through the earth, and see what was the end of those before them? But the home of the hereafter is best, for those who do right. Will ye not then understand?
12109 Wama arsalna min qablika illa rijalan noohee ilayhim min ahli alqura afalam yaseeroo fee alardi fayanthuroo kayfa kana AAaqibatu allatheena min qablihim waladaru alakhirati khayrun lillatheena ittaqaw afala taAAqiloon
1643 And before thee also the Mesengers We sent were but men, to whom We granted inspiration if ye realise this not, ask of those who possess the Message.
1643 Wama arsalna min qablika illa rijalan noohee ilayhim fasaloo ahla aththikri in kuntum la taAAlamoon
217 Before thee, also, the Messengers We sent were but men, to whom We granted inspiration If ye realise this not, ask of those who possess the Message.
217 Wama arsalna qablaka illa rijalan noohee ilayhim fasaloo ahla aththikri in kuntum la taAAlamoon
726 'True, there were persons among mankind who took shelter with persons among the Jinns, but they increased them in folly.
72 Waannahu kana rijalun mina alinsi yaAAoothoona birijalin mina aljinni fazadoohum rahaqa.
From my investigation, everywhere rijalun was used, in addition to the above ayats, pertained to homo sapien sapien/human being. Given this, why then would rijalun not mean a human being in 726 when referring to the Jinn?
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SALAAMUN, SHUAIB,
i agree with what you said, but what would you say to someone who (in regards to your argument about rijal), said "Well jinn can take the shape of humans."
I would have to say the following
- Or have they taken for worship (other) gods besides him? Say, "Bring your convincing proof this is the Message of those with me and the Message of those before me." But most of them know not the Truth, and so turn away.
Convincing proof would have to be an ayat saying Jinn can assume the human form.
Main Entry AYAT evidence proof.
I don't know of any such ayat.