Quran's shariah and it's applicability
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I don't trust human reasoning, I trust Allah.
What can I say to above zenje? mquran seem to have forgotten that Araham himself, the first monotheist, came to the notion of monotheistic God using his Reason Alone!
While it is true that Abraham refused to be of the sheep, you need to remember that it is ALLAH who guided him. This is what you seem to discount, yes, we need to have the initiative, but it is the GOD who leads us to the straight path/truth. Without WHOM we are totally lost, no matter the amount of (rhyme or) reason you can muster. -
Salaam all,
My point was if all translators translate the same words in same way then this has more weight than mquran self translations of this word, does it not?
The overwhelming majority of translators and scholars translate salat as prayer. They translate zakaa' as religious tithe. They translate khimar as headcover. And they have totally mistranslated 43. Again, these are the overwhelming numbers.
If you obey the majority of people on earth, they will divert you from the path of GOD. They follow only conjecture; they only guess.
One.
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Hello Nadia,
Peace mq,lt..all
I can say to you why is your translation different from the rest? When everyone else translated apples into apples but you have translated as oranges - do you not understand this?
There must be some misunderstanding here deliberate or otherwise, mq and the others have been trying to say that u should translate and understand the language itself by yourself rather than going by what is popular or 'accepted'. Examining things oneself leads to conclusions that can be dramatically different from the 'norm' and the 'norm' isn't necessarily 'right'.
What you saying in effect is that I should also learn Biblical Hebrew in order to understand the Bible? Or Ancient Greek to understand the New Testament? or Ancient Sanskrit to understand the Bhagavad Gita?
The Quran appeared 1400 years ago. Why did it not stop all the above happening?
Do you honestly think the scripture should be/is some kind of magic book that will 'force' people and make decisions and choices for them leaving them shrivelled husks of their former free choice making selves?
I think you misunderstood the point I was trying to make to mquran. I told him that the very existence of Universal Declarations of Human Rights did not mean the world would be made into a nice place as he implied.
It's supposed to be a guide...a hint book if you will...a short cut even...a manual...i could go on...
You are right Nadia, it is a GUIDE.
Can you not see that human beings as a whole are slowly letting go of their violent past? But still the acts of savagery goes on. But on a evolutionary level we are striving to become more civilised...
No, i can't see them letting go of their violent past just changing the methods to get it more acceptable to the times...on one hand you say it still goes on and on the other hand, on the collective human conciousness/evolutionary level it's not?
Well, Nadia, in the ancient times Victor always chopped the heads off the male inhabitants of the city and made woman and children into slaves and concubines, this was accepted as norm. But not anymore. So can you see we have evolved just a bit since then?
I look at history to see where we have been before. It is looking at history that we can gleam the evolutinary path of humanity...
Then surely the rise and fall of civilisations might shed some light on the climb to and the reversions of 'morality' in the ages?
But we make progress. The progress is slow. But we are progressing.
I have embraced humanity from Shaine Indians of North America to the aboriginals of Australia.
Then you give a statement like that and say mq is appealing to human emotions? I must have shed a tear there or two reading it, quite heady emotional stuff... -)
No Nadia, mquran said I should be aware of the Blood on which Europe was built on. This pandering to emotions. You are not guilty of Nazism as an individual and neither am I. I am not as individual guilty of the crimes of the past. I was born innocent like everyone else...
And also mquran said I was a racist. And I told him how can I be racist when he called me a liberal. And how can I be racist when I have embraced humanity from Shaine Indians of North America to the aboriginals of Australia. This was not meant pander to emotions but state a fact I can never be racist. I celebrate the best of humanity as well as try to come to terms to the worst of humanity...
Regards,
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I don't trust human reasoning, I trust Allah.
What can I say to above zenje? mquran seem to have forgotten that Araham himself, the first monotheist, came to the notion of monotheistic God using his Reason Alone!
While it is true that Abraham refused to be of the sheep, you need to remember that it is ALLAH who guided him. This is what you seem to discount, yes, we need to have the initiative, but it is the GOD who leads us to the straight path/truth. Without WHOM we are totally lost, no matter the amount of (rhyme or) reason you can muster.
God does guide us Zenje, when we listen to our Reason. That is what Abraham did. He listened to his reason. It was through the human intellect that Abraham came to the notion of the monotheism. When we use our own initiative, God guides us. Reason is the Guidance that God has embedded in each individual so that the individual will search for God and find it within himself. Reason is the "homing" device that God has implemented in us so that we can be guided to our Creator, who is the source of all our meaning in life...
Regards,
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Dear Lote tree
i get what you mean on most of your points, but i think there is a slight misunderstanding on that one
What you saying in effect is that I should also learn Biblical Hebrew in order to understand the Bible? Or Ancient Greek to understand the New Testament? or Ancient Sanskrit to understand the Bhagavad Gita?
I'm not sure i'm going in Nadia's sense, but it's not really about learning the language - we know that not everybody can learn arabic to the extent of being able to understand it enough in order to detect misinterpretations. How could we, if a majority of educated arabs are unable to do so. It all and always comes back to trusting in God and to understand with your heart. Only he can guide you and he guides the people only when they are ready. This is outside organized religion and outside the books. Nevertheless, the scripture(s) remain(s) a guiding light...but only if God wishes them to be that for you. And that is also why you'll never know for sure if you actually are guided. Even though personnaly i believe that the extent of inner peace is an indicator.
Elke
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Peace Lotetree,
What you saying in effect is that I should also learn Biblical Hebrew in order to understand the Bible? Or Ancient Greek to understand the New Testament? or Ancient Sanskrit to understand the Bhagavad Gita?
You are relying on the people who translate whenever you read a translation are you not? If there are contradictions in a translation you HAVE to go to the source language to find out how and why, y'know regular detective deduction work...you might 'get' the contadiction but you can't resolve it unless you have evidence of how it 'should' be according to your study of the contradiction. The more is better mentality should not be there at all whether it's in a translation or otherwise...because that is just like assuming that the victor's who wrote history wrote it in the most objective way possible...or that if the majority does something one way than that's the right way to do it...
If you notice in this forum, the quran study involves looking at such contradictions and resolving them...so i for a moment, was surprised at you stating that if 'everyone' translates it one way then thats right...
And according to your above post, it should be corrected as follows If i see a contradiction in my TRANSLATION of a text, it is going to be immensely difficult and fraught with many seemingly unsurmountable obstacles, the chance that i can resolve it (with proper evidence) unless i verify it for myself going back to the ORIGINAL language of the text.
Or if you don't want to go down that route, when the next person who asks you, say for example, why you think spoils of war is in the quran along with captive calimshite women and the harem of plenty...Lo! a multiple choice of answers you can give
a)Well because everyone says it is, of course i haven't actually verified the language itself but....
b)I've read it my friend! My eyes do not decieve...of course, i don't know the actual language but thats a mere piffle when translators abound!
c)Because!
d) Why it's practically tradition! It has to be in there doesn't it? All scripture have a bit of the captive slave women bit! Adds to the drama!
e) Look! A Wookie on Endor!I think you misunderstood the point I was trying to make to mquran. I told him that the very existence of Universal Declarations of Human Rights did not mean the world would be made into a nice place as he implied.
I was also trying to tell you that such declarations are a mere cat's vomit if not followed...and that goes for all such guides...they are absolutely nothing if not followed except as reminders to the 'worthy'...it is not evidence of 'evolved conciousness' as such 'guides' have been recieved by men in all ages as per the scripture.
So explain to me again exactly what is evolved if we already had revolutionary ideas through the times and reversions as well as universal guides and declarations after all God's message including scripture was and is universal...just what is the evolved bit here that wasn't there before previously?
We don't hack off heads but shoot with bullets? We don't rape and pillage but we just pillaged and dare i say raped iraq? or is that still in the process? We don't hold women and children captive? When entire families are captive and deprived of their freedom to what was theirs in israel? Oh of course they can always move to jordan...just a wee bit of a pain in the posterior but hey the way is there...of course the captive women and children (in the past?) could always get out of the cells if only they had the key...
You are right Nadia, it is a GUIDE.
Some people just like wandering around aimlessly waiting for that voice to guide them i guess...Luuuke...use the force...Luuke....
Well, Nadia, in the ancient times Victor always chopped the heads off the male inhabitants of the city and made woman and children into slaves and concubines, this was accepted as norm. But not anymore. So can you see we have evolved just a bit since then?
Addressed above...just a slight change in method, plan stays the same...human nature stays the same...
No Nadia, mquran said I should be aware of the Blood on which Europe was built on. This pandering to emotions. You are not guilty of Nazism as an individual and neither am I. I am not as individual guilty of the crimes of the past. I was born innocent like everyone else...
Of course lt i'm not saying you were born a sinner...just was a tad touched by the poetry in that statement where you embraced the people in all the whole wide world..made me sniffle, i think...
Regards,
Nadia -
Peace Elke,
Only he can guide you and he guides the people only when they are ready.
Nevertheless, the scripture(s) remain(s) a guiding light...but only if God wishes them to be that for you.
Even though personnaly i believe that the extent of inner peace is an indicator.I agree )
Nadia.
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You are relying on the people who translate whenever you read a translation are you not?
So does majority of people here! -)
If there are contradictions in a translation you HAVE to go to the source language to find out how and why, y'know regular detective deduction work...
That what I said in order to understand it I must learn Biblical Hebrew, Archaic Greek and Ancient Sankscrit for me to resolve this. But I say to how many of you are capable of this? Not many apart from scholars who have made a lifetime study of these languages. All we can do is rely on "best" possible translations. But tell me Nadia - how do you decide if a translation is good or bad without knowing the original language?
The more is better mentality should not be there at all whether it's in a translation or otherwise..
Nadia I think you misunderstood. This is not about more. Let me try to clarify again. If all the translators translated the word "apples" to "apples" and then mquran translated it as "oranges" - which do you go for without understanding the original language? Can you not see, this is not about more but accuracy of translation of a particular word. In science when more people say the same thing then it is accepted as having more validity. But if you want me to accept the word to be "oranges" then I would like to see more people agreeing to "oranges" -)
a)Well because everyone says it is, of course i haven't actually verified the language itself but....
b)I've read it my friend! My eyes do not decieve...of course, i don't know the actual language but thats a mere piffle when translators abound!
c)Because!
d) Why it's practically tradition! It has to be in there doesn't it? All scripture have a bit of the captive slave women bit! Adds to the drama!
e) Look! A Wookie on Endor!This is good Nadia, perhaps you should try your luck with script writing!
Just kiddin -)I think you misunderstood the point I was trying to make to mquran. I told him that the very existence of Universal Declarations of Human Rights did not mean the world would be made into a nice place as he implied.
I was also trying to tell you that such declarations are a mere cat's vomit if not followed...
Hey Nadia, that was my point to mquran. For Quran has been with us for 1400 hundred years and its has been so far been mere...erm perhaps not -)
So explain to me again exactly what is evolved if we already had revolutionary ideas through the times and reversions as well as universal guides and declarations after all God's message including scripture was and is universal...just what is the evolved bit here that wasn't there before previously?
...erm for example we don't burn witches anymore -) so all those witches out there you are now safe! In many countries we don't chop peoples heads for speaking their mind, so those who want to speak your mind then speak your mind! In many countries we don't practice death penalty as a punishment as a scoiety, etc, etc, the world has brought the nazies to justice, the world is bringing serbians to justice, the world is bringing pinoche to justice.... etc etc... and list goes on... if this is not evidence for evolved consciouness then what is...
We don't hack off heads but shoot with bullets?
We don't line up all the male inhabitants in a city and chopped their heads off! This is a slight improvement.
but we just pillaged and dare i say raped iraq? or is that still in the process? We don't hold women and children captive? When entire families are captive and deprived of their freedom to what was theirs in israel? Oh of course they can always move to jordan...just a wee bit of a pain in the posterior but hey the way is there...of course the captive women and children (in the past?) could always get out of the cells if only they had the key...
They did not have key in the ancient past I think. Key is a later invention -) The world is suffering Nadia, it is through suffering that we learn, we evolve. As I said there will be many more set backs in the future but we are on a evolutionary path as God intended. The world is coming together Nadia. We can communicate to any person on the other side of the Globe. Techonology is brining us together. And one day we will call ourselves the Citizens of Planet Earth!
Some people just like wandering around aimlessly waiting for that voice to guide them i guess...Luuuke...use the force...Luuke....
Wandering aimlessly Nadia is not bad. But you have to come realise yourself that you are wandering aimlessly. This is the key to spiritual progress.... -)
Of course lt i'm not saying you were born a sinner...just was a tad touched by the poetry in that statement where you embraced the people in all the whole wide world..made me sniffle, i think... D
I was serious Nadia -) I have embraced all humanity. The Good, The Bad and the Ugly. But just as I celebrate the Good of humanity I will always try to come to terms with the Ugliness of Humanity...
Regards,
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hi lotetree
just realised that there was more to you message (the last part) - didn't see it as it was on the other page.
But still, i speak of heart when you speak of reason...
Bizarre you being the poet here! lolElke
Hello Elke,
Abraham used his REASON to arrive at the notion of monotheism. He then embraced with his heart -) But I understand what you say...
Thanks...
Regards,
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Peace Lotetree,
So does majority of people here!
The majority of people here look at the different translations and choose the ones that suits their reasoning imo...maybe you see differently?
That what I said in order to understand it I must learn Biblical Hebrew, Archaic Greek and Ancient Sankscrit for me to resolve this. But I say to how many of you are capable of this? Not many apart from scholars who have made a lifetime study of these languages. All we can do is rely on "best" possible translations. But tell me Nadia - how do you decide if a translation is good or bad without knowing the original language?
The words to note are IF you see a CONTRADICTION...not just blindly judge the worth of two different translations...after all when you compare translators u compare on the basis of how ACCURATE they are to the ORIGINAL majorly that is if you want to resolve and deduce contradictions...for a sunday night in front of the fire read no one is asking you to tell whether they are good or bad.
Nadia I think you misunderstood. This is not about more. Let me try to clarify again. If all the translators translated the word "apples" to "apples" and then mquran translated it as "oranges" - which do you go for without understanding the original language? Can you not see, this is not about more but accuracy of translation of a particular word. In science when more people say the same thing then it is accepted as having more validity. But if you want me to accept the word to be "oranges" then I would like to see more people agreeing to "oranges"
You should be asking WHY, trying to verify and using your God given reason as to why and how is this dude doing it differently not just wanting to see more people agree...in science people do tend to look at WHY rather than can't we all just get along please?
This is good Nadia, perhaps you should try your luck with script writing!
Just kiddinGlad you approve... )
Hey Nadia, that was my point to mquran. For Quran has been with us for 1400 hundred years and its has been so far been mere...erm perhaps not
It's useless to people who insist on their own ways or those wandering around searching for that voice to tell them they are chosen...not just the quran, them pretty useless declarations of human peace as well..they have always been with us in some form or the other...For God not guiding the people equally through the ages is a travesty...
...erm for example we don't burn witches anymore so all those witches out there you are now safe! In many countries we don't chop peoples heads for speaking their mind, so those who want to speak your mind then speak your mind! In many countries we don't practice death penalty as a punishment as a scoiety, etc, etc, the world has brought the nazies to justice, the world is bringing serbians to justice, the world is bringing pinoche to justice.... etc etc... and list goes on... if this is not evidence for evolved consciouness then what is...
erm for example now we burn them pagan heathen 'witches' in hiroshima and nagasaki? Are we imprisoning people still and taking away their liberties in a fate worse than death? The difference i see that things are happing on a glabal scale and not those fuzzy nice things either...these things have always been happening its like a pattern through the ages...the world is bringing them to justice? That kind of optimistic happy happy love love thinking reminds me of mere..er perhaps not...Like i said...this has been going on for ages...ups and downs, climbs and falls..what is your basis for judging evolved? er, no swords please! But bullets are aokay? No witchies on a stake or heads on pikes? but nuclear bombing right up the cat's alley?
We don't line up all the male inhabitants in a city and chopped their heads off! This is a slight improvement.
No we just massacre entire villages...with, wait for it....bullets! Oh, thats okay then...criky thats evolved...
They did not have key in the ancient past I think. Key is a later invention The world is suffering Nadia, it is through suffering that we learn, we evolve. As I said there will be many more set backs in the future but we are on a evolutionary path as God intended. The world is coming together Nadia. We can communicate to any person on the other side of the Globe. Techonology is brining us together. And one day we will call ourselves the Citizens of Planet Earth!
i see human nature remaining the same, none of the hippie lovey stuff...i see the methods change but the patterns are the SAME...the rollercoaster that never ends...i wish i was a poetic as you...
Wandering aimlessly Nadia is not bad. But you have to come realise yourself that you are wandering aimlessly. This is the key to spiritual progress....
Cuz the mystics, sages,sufis and grand mufti's say so?
I was serious Nadia I have embraced all humanity. The Good, The Bad and the Ugly. But just as I celebrate the Good of humanity I will always try to come to terms with the Ugliness of Humanity...
Good luck, we need to support one another throught the good times and the bad times...damn i think that was in some song...look i tried to be poetic really i did...
Regards,
Nadia -
Salaam Nadia,
If there are contradictions in a translation you HAVE to go to the source language to find out how and why, y'know regular detective deduction work...
How about this - If there are any contradictions/problems you have to go to the SOURCE. idea
IMHO, we can take a lifetime learning 'classical arabic', and we'll have gone no where in terms of spiritual development. wink
Peace.
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Peace Zein,
Yes, i agree with ur line of thinking as well...there are many ways to look at it...gathering evidence for dicussing with people who demand it and who claim to argue semantics and language with you...or just realising what the deal is...in either case in a discussion you need to have the evidence...like why is khimar not a head covering?
why is salat not prayer? analysis of original never hurts...but u can get there from here kinda thing too...I with you on the learning the entire language thing...i've made leaps and bounds myself by anaylsis alone without knowing how to communicate with beduins or their camels...bro wakas has a lot of good stuff on his site and the method is awesome.... )
Nadia
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Hello LoteTree,
- how do you decide if a translation is good or bad without knowing the original language?
Intelligence and Wisdom (which includes knowledge, intuition and reason) are the key words to understanding the contextual nature of any given material, verbal or written.
Translations or interpretations of Quran by the majority of scholars, especially in the past, have been similar if not exact (as one clearly notices), and were based on "dogmatic mindsets". When one steps out of such unpleasant dilema or religious doctrines and ventures out to seek a proper understanding of Quranic injunctions as per Natural Laws, Aidid Safar stands out quite vibrant. No other scholar, up-to-date, regardless of his/her education/knowledge, has come even slightly close to bring about the reletavity of understanding the entire Quran by/within itself to prove its own contextual points as per GOD's Natural System and our ways of Life that carry us to live a righteous life. Surely then, the Quran is a guide for all mankind in general and not just for "muslims".
I suggest you read the entire .pdf file of the Englsih or French version of "Highjacking of Islam" at www.aididsafar.com.
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The majority of people here look at the different translations and choose the ones that suits their reasoning imo...maybe you see differently?
So there can never be a definitive translation of Quran?
Is that impossible to achieve?Do we always have to pick and choose between so many translation according to our taste? So how can one be sure of the message?
erm for example now we burn them pagan heathen 'witches' in hiroshima and nagasaki?
Hey Japanese how come to terms with their tragedy. Through suffering they have learnt and so has the world learnt about nuclear devastation. From tragedy they have risen to become leading nations of this world...
reminds me of mere..er perhaps not...Like i said...this has been going on for ages...ups and downs, climbs and falls..what is your basis for judging evolved? er, no swords please! But bullets are aokay? No witchies on a stake or heads on pikes? but nuclear bombing right up the cat's alley?
Yes it goes up and down but we evolve by small degrees -)
And evolution is always very slow to slow for you to see perhaps. But nevertherless we are evolving according to God's intended plan.We don't line up all the male inhabitants in a city and chopped their heads off! This is a slight improvement.
No we just massacre entire villages...with, wait for it....bullets! Oh, thats okay then...criky thats evolved...
At least they did not stick them on the poles at the entrance of the city, as did the Romans! so I say yes this is an improvement -)
i see human nature remaining the same, none of the hippie lovey stuff...i see the methods change but the patterns are the SAME...the rollercoaster that never ends...i wish i was a poetic as you...
No Nadia, it is nothing to do with hippie stuff. If you believe that human nature remains the same then that is your reality. But very existence of Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Democracy, Principles of personal liberty is a sign that we have come a long way but there is a long way to go.
Wandering aimlessly Nadia is not bad. But you have to come realise yourself that you are wandering aimlessly. This is the key to spiritual progress....
Cuz the mystics, sages,sufis and grand mufti's say so?
No Nadia, your own consciouss should tell you that. Your soul should tell you that. Your heart should tell you that. Your God-given reason should tell you that. But the problem it seems some people prefer to be told what to believe in, what to follow, how to follow it. Some people it seems prefer to be sheeps baa baa-ying to the others because they are it seems incapable thinking for themselves. They despise their own God-given reason.
Regards,
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IMHO, we can take a lifetime learning 'classical arabic', and we'll have gone no where in terms of spiritual development. wink
That is why I say go beyond scripture.
How can you go to the source Zenje if can't read the Source Language?
You have to rely on people who have studied the source Language right? and these people have also done the translation right? so going to the source language is going to the translations right? ...oh never mind...Come zenje where is the definitative translation of the Quran? Where can I find one? How long do we have to dither over this and that translation?
Anyone here on this FORUM, please tell ONE DEFINITIVE TRANSLATION of the QURAN, so we can stop this nonsense of comparing so many translation which making a nonsense of the message!!!
Regards,
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How can you go to the source Zenje if can't read the Source Language?
WHO is the SOURCE? Answer that, and the question dissappears.Come zenje where is the definitative translation of the Quran?
Choose any that you like. I like the PM translation, but it doesn't really matter. You can read in English, Latin or Cl. Arabic of you want... understanding it is a whole different story. I don't compare translations. Once in a while, I'll check out a dictionary if I want to go into word play, but that's about it.Anyone here on this FORUM, please tell ONE DEFINITIVE TRANSLATION of the QURAN, so we can stop this nonsense of comparing so many translation which making a nonsense of the message!!!
One day you might understand that all the knowledge and reason is nothing without GOD. Once we stop worshipping books, people (translators/interpretors) and other idols that we so quickly set up, then we'll "get" the message. )Peace
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How can you go to the source Zenje if can't read the Source Language?
WHO is the SOURCE? Answer that, and the question dissappears.You know my answer to that don't you?!
WHO IS THE SOURCE Zenje and HOW DO YOU KNOW IT IS FROM THAT SOURCE without reading the translation or knowing the language?One day you might understand that all the knowledge and reason is nothing without GOD.
One day you will understand that scripture is nothing to do with the reality we call GOD. That scripture can only be a GUIDE to finding God within yourself...
Once we stop worshipping books, people (translators/interpretors) and other idols that we so quickly set up, then we'll "get" the message. )
PeaceOnce we stop being a sheep and start to think for ourselves then we will understand that the message has been always locked within ourselves -)
Regards,
