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  4. shahr = lunar month ?

shahr = lunar month ?

Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved Islamic Calendar & Ramadhan.
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  • M Offline
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    Mohammed_
    wrote on last edited by
    #12

    God mentions Moon phases from new moon, not from full moon. i.e. islamic timing system starts (e.g. for hajj) with new moon itself (enter houses from the doors).

    I hope it's not confusing. Time for hajj starts with the new moon of first month of the well known /inviolable /restricted months. i.e. unlike in the article, one can choose any set of days within these months.

    — To the best of my current understanding (17:36). ​من الله كل خير ولله الحمد
    "O you who have attained to faith! Surrender yourselves wholly unto God ..." [2:208], [3:102]

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      Aladin_Azra
      wrote on last edited by
      #13

      Time for the Hajj is when its host announce it, as was told to Ibrahim.

      There's also bogus understanding of 2197 when people think that ešhur means "months", so some take it as the Hajj is in a few months and some take it as the Hajj is these months.

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      • N Offline
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        Noon_waalqalami
        wrote on last edited by
        #14

        Peace Noon,

        I read your article a bit late, interesting observation, & thanks for sharing.

        Could you tell why you say lunar cycle is exactly 29 days ? (Why not >29 or ~29.5).
        12 lunar cycles take around 354/355 days. So thalathuna shahr would be >870 days ?

        peace Mohammed,

        pregnancy time and breastfeeding calculations would contradict if natural birth occurs before cutoff time similar type of contradiction as with fingerprints i.e., each individual has unique prints even identical twins (see 753-4)

        • contradicts If lunar cycle = 29.53059 days, and if year = lunar 354.36708 days
        • contradicts If lunar cycle = 29.53059 days, and if year = solar 365.242199 days
        • contradicts If lunar cycle = 29 days, and if year = lunar 354

        math only works if lunar cycle = 29 days and if year = solar 365 days
        (i.e., full days e.g., dawn-to-dawn or sunset-to-sunset)

        341 قال said رب lord اجعل makes لى for me اىه sign قال said اىتك sign your (sing.) الا that not تكلم thou talk الناس the people ثلثه trio (group of three) اىام days الا except رمزا symbol (gesture) of واذكر and remembrance (mention) ربك lord your (sing.) كثىرا much of وسبح and glorify بالعشى in the evening والابكر and the early part

        likewise, doesn’t say 12 lunar cycles in a year rather the count is twelve!

        936 ان indeed عده iddata/count الشهور the lunar cycles (pl.) عند near/with الله the God اثنا dual عشر ten (twelve) شهرا lunar cycle of فى in كتب book (writ) الله the God

        choose a marker e.g., summer solstice, full-moon, etc., count full days until next event

        like many words when written with leading alif denotes plural

        2185 شهر lunar cycle (sing.) رمضن ramadan
        perf558 شهر lunar cycle (sing.) جمدى jumada الاولى the first من of سنه year اثنىن twosome وعشرىن and twenty (22)

        https//i.postimg.cc/4yYGWTgz/PERF-558-April-25-643-CE.jpg

        2197 الحج the hajj اشهر lunar cycles (pl.) معلومت well-known

        2226 للذىن for the ones ىولون turning (forswearing) من from نساىهم womenfolk theirs (m/p) تربص wait اربعه quartet (i.e., group of four successive not any اربع arbaa/four) اشهر lunar cycles (pl.)

        2234 والذىن and the ones ىتوفون taketh being (dying) منكم among you (m/p) وىذرون and leaving ازوجا spouses of ىتربصن waited they (f/p) بانفسهن in (by) souls theirs/themselves (f/p) اربعه quartet (group of four) اشهر lunar cycles (pl.) وعشرا and ten of

        492,584 فمن so who لم not ىجد find فصىم so abstinence شهرىن lunar cycles two متتبعىن successive two

        92 فسىحوا so move about فى in الارض the land اربعه quartet (group of four) اشهر lunar cycles (pl.)
        95 فاذا so when of (i.e., future event) انسلخ withdraws الاشهر the lunar cycles (pl.)

        654 والى and those (f/p) ىىسن despaired من from المحىض the menstruation من from نساىكم womenfolk yours ان if ارتبتم doubts you (pl.) فعدتهن so count theirs ثلثه trio (group of three) اشهر lunar cycles (pl.)

        the meanings in context are obvious and pregnancy/breastfeeding calculations times clarify

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          Aladin_Azra
          wrote on last edited by
          #15

          Same question goes How the Hajj can be lunar cycles? What does that mean?

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          • M Offline
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            Mohammed_
            wrote on last edited by
            #16

            I also count year solar, but when you say 30 lunar cycles = 870 days (or lunar cycle is 29 days), it contradicts with what we observe in reality / what God has arranged.

            — To the best of my current understanding (17:36). ​من الله كل خير ولله الحمد
            "O you who have attained to faith! Surrender yourselves wholly unto God ..." [2:208], [3:102]

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            • N Offline
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              Noon_waalqalami
              wrote on last edited by
              #17

              Same question goes How the Hajj can be lunar cycles? What does that mean?

              it means the same as 2228 فى in اىام days معلومت well-known

              I also count year solar, but when you say 30 lunar cycles = 870 days (or lunar cycle is 29 days), it contradicts with what we observe in reality / what God has arranged.

              Not what I say what Qur’an says — what does it contradict?
              Did you understand how to solve inequality equation given?

              https//www.mathsisfun.com/algebra/inequality-solving.html

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                Noon_waalqalami
                wrote on last edited by
                #18

                We could use lunar cycle = 29.530575 days
                Pregnancy = 2x365 - 30x29.53 = 156+ days

                Hence cutoff = 156/7 = 22 weeks + 2 days
                These two cases (suspect?) violate above?

                "In 2014, Lyla Stensrud, born in San Antonio, Texas, U.S. became the youngest premature baby in the world. She was born at 21 weeks 4 days and weighed 410 grams (less than a pound). Kaashif Ahmad resuscitated the baby after she was born."

                "Amillia Taylor is also often cited as the most premature baby. She was born on 24 October 2006 in Miami, Florida, U.S. at 21 weeks and 6 days' (153 days) gestation. This report has created some confusion as her gestation was measured from the date of conception (through in vitro fertilization) rather than the date of her mother's last menstrual period, making her appear 2 weeks younger than if gestation was calculated by the more common method."

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                  Aladin_Azra
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #19

                  it means the same as 2228 فى in اىام days معلومت well-known

                  It can't mean the same because there's no fee there.

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                  • N Offline
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                    Noon_waalqalami
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #20

                    It can't mean the same because there's no fee there.

                    ??? timeframe is clearly there use context cross-reference

                    2197 الحج the hajj اشهر lunar cycles معلومت well-known
                    فمن so who فرض undertakes فىهن fīhinna/in them (reference 936) الحج the hajj

                    936 ان indeed عده count الشهور the lunar cycles (pl.) عند near/with الله the God اثنا dual عشر ten (twelve) شهرا lunar cycle of فى in كتب book/writ الله the God ىوم day خلق creation السموت the skies والارض and the land
                    منها of them اربعه quartet (group of four) حرم inviolable ذلك such الدىن the creed القىم the value
                    فلا so not تظلموا thou wrong ye of فىهن fīhinna/in them (i.e., group of four) انفسكم souls yours

                    https//corpuscoranicum.de/en/verse-navigator/sura/9/verse/36/manuscripts

                    https//i.postimg.cc/SR9DcM7b/ch9v29-38.jpg

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                      Aladin_Azra
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #21

                      So, you claim that Allah forgot to put fee there and you have to put it to make that sentence to have some sense? Or, maybe, just maybe, you put some random meanings in words Allah revealed to us so we can ponder over them and those meanings have no sense, because el-Hajj cannot be any months, lunar cycles, phases of the Moon...

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                      • N Offline
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                        Noon_waalqalami
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #22

                        ^^^ you keep mindlessly ranting like before about spouses and can't read or understand a thing.

                        describes an action in the hajj فى in اىام days معلومت well-known

                        2228 لىشهدوا to witnessed they of منفع who benefit لهم for them وىذكروا and remembered they of اسم name الله the God فى in اىام days معلومت well-known

                        likewise read what was posted prior describes action during group of four i.e., timeframe of hajj
                        why so hard headed and total lack of basic cross-reference and reading comprehension skills?

                        ??? timeframe is clearly there use context cross-reference

                        2197 الحج the hajj اشهر lunar cycles معلومت well-known
                        فمن so who فرض undertakes فىهن fīhinna/in them (reference 936) الحج the hajj

                        936 ان indeed عده count الشهور the lunar cycles (pl.) عند near/with الله the God اثنا dual عشر ten (twelve) شهرا lunar cycle of فى in كتب book/writ الله the God ىوم day خلق creation السموت the skies والارض and the land
                        منها of them اربعه quartet (group of four) حرم inviolable ذلك such الدىن the creed القىم the value
                        فلا so not تظلموا thou wrong ye of فىهن fīhinna/in them (i.e., group of four) انفسكم souls yours

                        https//corpuscoranicum.de/en/verse-navigator/sura/9/verse/36/manuscripts

                        https//i.postimg.cc/SR9DcM7b/ch9v29-38.jpg

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                          Aladin_Azra
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #23

                          Fee in 2228 won't magically make fee in 2197. Why you're hard-headed and you won't even think that words can have many meanings and maybe, just maybe, ešhur here means something else?

                          2228 is not saying about ešhur, but about days. It's your understanding that ešhur is set of days in 2197. Moreover, if time adverb is used, as eyyaam in 2184, it's in accusative, so we can clearly understand that Siyaam (for previous people) was during (not IN) a few days. Thus, if you think that ešhur in 2197 is a time adverb it would be clear. Since it's not clear and it doesn't make sense we should try to figure out its (other) meaning.

                          If you think that you understand grammar of the Qur'an please explain and teach me how ešhur in 2197 is a time adverb. Thank you in advance.

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                            Noon_waalqalami
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #24

                            If you think that you understand grammar of the Qur'an please explain and teach me how ešhur in 2197 is a time adverb. Thank you in advance.

                            Already showed numerous times it pertains to timeframe “in them” ie group of four lunar cycles the hajj — how much clearer can this be? Otherwise translate exactly each word 2197 and 936 let’s see it and which word below is incorrectly translated by me?

                            2197 الحج the hajj اشهر lunar cycles معلومت well-known
                            فمن so who فرض undertakes فىهن fīhinna/in them (reference 936) الحج the hajj

                            936 ان indeed عده count الشهور the lunar cycles (pl.) عند near/with الله the God اثنا dual عشر ten (twelve) شهرا lunar cycle of فى in كتب book/writ الله the God ىوم day خلق creation السموت the skies والارض and the land
                            منها of them اربعه quartet (group of four) حرم inviolable ذلك such الدىن the creed القىم the value
                            فلا so not تظلموا thou wrong ye of فىهن fīhinna/in them (i.e., group of four) انفسكم souls yours

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                              Aladin_Azra
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #25

                              I've already given my view on this, I will quote

                              First, let's notice that there's no IN (fee فِي) at the start of 2197, so it cannot mean that el-Hajj is IN anything. The proof for this is 2228 where IN was used with eyām ma'loomāt فِي أَيَّامٍ مَعْلُومَاتٍ. This means that el-Hajj IS ešhur ma'loomāt أَشْهُرٌ مَعْلُومَاتٌ and we have to figure out what this means.

                              Passive ma'loomāt is a feminine plural and it's an adjective of ešhur here. The passive participle means that some verb was done on its subject if there's no active participle, or it means that some verb is doing on its subject in case that there's an active participle. Since we can't see an active participle we should conclude that ma'lumāt already have their passive state. We should note that the language of the Qur'an has an anticausative also, which is expressed by verbal form VII. So, who made ešhur ma'lumāt?

                              We should note that ešhur is more likely masculine, especially in 654 since it has feminine number (3) or 95 where probably masculine adjective Hurum is used. Due to this we could conclude that ešhur, as all other words, has multiple meanings and that some meanings are masculine and some feminine, because it's obvious that in 2197 ešhur should be feminine plural. As ešhur in 654 most probably means "(3) months" where it's masculine, we can conclude that ešhur in 2197 has some other meaning.

                              Root šeen-ha-ra describes revealing of something step-by-step, or in case of the Moon by phases. Ešhur as a collective noun can mean all these steps or phases, thus in relation to the Moon it means "(lunar) month". This collective form is singular and plural same time, as, for example, enfus is singular and plural for "self" (selves). This also mean that ešhur is not a plural of šehr, which has its normal plural in šuhoor, as, for example, beyt has buyoot.

                              If ešhur are not months, then what it means here?

                              Due to its root meaning and noun's form we could conclude that ešhur is some sort of a collection of revealings. Since el-Hajj is debating, discussing we could conclude that ešhur means a collection of presentations speakers/participants in el-Hajj. Why they're ma'loomāt? Because the host (Ibrahim and people after him) already chosen and decided which set of topics and their presenters will be el-Hajj.

                              The rest of 2197 talks about those who participiate IN THEM (fee hinne فِيهِنَّ), meaning speakers/participants in presentations of the Hajj.

                              I hope this makes sense...

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