Quran's shariah and it's applicability
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Peace Lotetree,
So there can never be a definitive translation of Quran?
Is that impossible to achieve?Do we always have to pick and choose between so many translation according to our taste? So how can one be sure of the message?
We use our reason and guidance from the God...it will differ from person to person...on one hand you say let everything free, let it wander aimlessly and on the other you want it put in a box for you? The path and the message is clear that doesn't mean you won't have to put in an effort y'know...That's why the reading is dynamic...it varies in regards to the level of understanding...
Hey Japanese how come to terms with their tragedy. Through suffering they have learnt and so has the world learnt about nuclear devastation. From tragedy they have risen to become leading nations of this world...
This pattern repeats through the ages...there is no well now they've learnt so thats that...we revert as well, which is well documented in the records of history...therefore it's not evidence of this evolved human conciousness thing you speak of...
Yes it goes up and down but we evolve by small degrees
And evolution is always very slow to slow for you to see perhaps. But nevertherless we are evolving according to God's intended plan.According to what you said in your last post, you judge evolving by exchanging swords for bullets and claim that's an improvement? It has the same end result y'know...death and pain and suffering and of course lots of gore and blood to go along with it...but maybe it's toned down graphically for you in some way to see it as such?
At least they did not stick them on the poles at the entrance of the city, as did the Romans! so I say yes this is an improvement
No we make playing cards out of them amongst other things...tell me are you really serious here?
No Nadia, it is nothing to do with hippie stuff. If you believe that human nature remains the same then that is your reality. But very existence of Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Democracy, Principles of personal liberty is a sign that we have come a long way but there is a long way to go.
We have always come from a long way and have a long way to go no matter what time period we are born in.
No Nadia, your own consciouss should tell you that. Your soul should tell you that. Your heart should tell you that. Your God-given reason should tell you that. But the problem it seems some people prefer to be told what to believe in, what to follow, how to follow it. Some people it seems prefer to be sheeps baa baa-ying to the others because they are it seems incapable thinking for themselves. They despise their own God-given reason.
I don't see what this has to do with understanding and following scripture if 'God given reason' beckons you to...unless you have a problem with someone following any scripture even though their 'reason' tells them to? Wandering aimlessly is okay but having a plan in accordance with a scripture is a no no because then people are not using their 'God given reason'?
And another question on the same subject while we are at it...how do you gauge what spiritual progress is for another person? Or do you believe what works for you must work for everyone?Regards,
Nadia -
Hello Nadia,
This pattern repeats through the ages...there is no well now they've learnt so thats that...we revert as well, which is well documented in the records of history...therefore it's not evidence of this evolved human conciousness thing you speak of...
The fact that we have Universal Declaration Of Human Rights, Democracy and Principles of Personal Liberty does not that tell you we have reached a level where when we can have these kinds of things? Yes I know this is not a magic cure. But the fact humanity can come together and create something like this, I say is a sign of evolved human consciousness. Perhaps you can't see this but others can. And they also see that we are on a evolutionary path...
At least they did not stick them on the poles at the entrance of the city, as did the Romans! so I say yes this is an improvement
No we make playing cards out of them amongst other things...tell me are you really serious here?
Of course not. But you should not appeal to emotions. Mai Lai massacre in Vietnam is indeed barbaric. So was the World Trade Centre Atrocity! and so was the Nazi holoucaust. But our collective consciouss abhors such acts. While Moses descendants celebrated wipping out the Philistines from the Promised Land, we can do no such thing. We can only try to come to terms with this area of darkness in the human soul...
No Nadia, it is nothing to do with hippie stuff. If you believe that human nature remains the same then that is your reality. But very existence of Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Democracy, Principles of personal liberty is a sign that we have come a long way but there is a long way to go.
We have always come from a long way and have a long way to go no matter what time period we are born in.
But we are on a evolutionary path as God's intended Plan...
No Nadia, your own consciouss should tell you that. Your soul should tell you that. Your heart should tell you that. Your God-given reason should tell you that. But the problem it seems some people prefer to be told what to believe in, what to follow, how to follow it. Some people it seems prefer to be sheeps baa baa-ying to the others because they are it seems incapable thinking for themselves. They despise their own God-given reason.
I don't see what this has to do with understanding and following scripture if 'God given reason' beckons you to...unless you have a problem with someone following any scripture even though their 'reason' tells them to?
No Nadia I don't have problems with that at all. I don't have problems with other peoples belief. But when they tell that their scripture is the absolute truth/whole truth and nothing but the truth then I will always ask them this question How can you be sure?
When they quote verse to prove something and I do the same they say the translation I have used is incorrect even though I have quoted from the same translation.
Wandering aimlessly is okay but having a plan in accordance with a scripture is a no no because then people are not using their 'God given reason'?
But the plan should be GUIDE Nadia, it should not become an Idol and obstacle to intellectual and spiritual progress...
And another question on the same subject while we are at it...how do you gauge what spiritual progress is for another person? Or do you believe what works for you must work for everyone?
I am not gauging anyone's spiritual progress here. Perhaps we can discuss this under another thread? It is quite important I think...
The path and the message is clear that doesn't mean you won't have to put in an effort y'know...That's why the reading is dynamic...it varies in regards to the level of understanding
Lets concentrate on above because that was what the original argument was about. So lets begin
Mquran said where did I get the "spoils of war" from. So I gave him following quoations from the scripture browser on this forum
Y.Ali They ask thee concerning (things taken as) spoils of war. Say '(such) spoils are at the disposal of Allah and the Messenger So fear Allah, and keep straight the relations between yourselves Obey Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe.'
R.Khalifa They consult you about the spoils of war. Say, 'The spoils of war belong to GOD and the messenger.' You shall observe GOD, exhort one another to be righteous, and obey GOD and His messenger, if you are believers.
Pickthal They ask thee (O Muhammad) of the spoils of war. Say The spoils of war belong to Allah and the messenger, so keep your duty to Allah, and adjust the matter of your difference, and obey Allah and His messenger, if ye are (true) believers.
Shakir They ask you about the windfalls. Say The windfalls are for Allah and the Messenger. So be careful of (your duty to) Allah and set aright matters of your difference, and obey Allah and His Messenger if you are believers.
Literal They ask/question you about the spoils/gifts . Say "The spoils/gifts (are) to God and the messenger, so fear and obey God and correct/repair that what is between you, and obey God and His messenger, if you were believing."
Surah 81How can we apply above kind of morality now. So tell me Nadia since you are expert on this. What does it mean? mquran said it means gift/profit. Please enlighten me?
Regards,
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Salaam all
nadia wrote
the reading is dynamic...it varies in regards to the level of understanding...that's exactly the point - and it's why there will never be a final translation or even understanding
i guess if one got that far god would call this person back from earth right away - no more reason to stay...elke
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I wish peace and salvation to all...
there are a lot of examples that seemingly indicates that not all of the Book`s details are directed to all the people of all the times....i would like to be proven otherwise by those who believe that all the details are stricly applying to all communities, other then original arab recipients....I could surely be wrong and those examples may not stay valid upon exposition of a more correct translation or more appropriate cross- referencing, understanding or whatever....
Here`s one for a start....
In 492 the believers are ordered, if it happens that one of them kill another by chance, that his duty is to pay "blood-money" AND to free a slave(or whatever i am not 100% sure of the corectness of that transaltion)...
However the precise amount is not decreed(correct me if i am wrong) and it is seemingly presumed or understood that the original recipients already know the exact amount that is to be paid, and imo this is a potential indicator that all the book`s details are only for a certain cultural milieu or community...and that its general principles might be diferently elaborated or applied into life in different cultures or circumstances
best wishes
Zlatan
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Peace Lotetree,
The fact that we have Universal Declaration Of Human Rights, Democracy and Principles of Personal Liberty does not that tell you we have reached a level where when we can have these kinds of things? Yes I know this is not a magic cure. But the fact humanity can come together and create something like this, I say is a sign of evolved human consciousness. Perhaps you can't see this but others can. And they also see that we are on a evolutionary path...
Perhaps you can't see the point i've been reiterating...we have always had this in some form or another in different time periods...the fact that we have them and have had them does not change human nature or your collective consciousness, has not except for the guided, so once again i ask you what is this evolved thing you speak of when we still have the same actions in different guises with (ahem) slight changes in technology aka bullets instead of swords?
Does a universal declaration of liberty give something to the world unless it's followed? So how is it evolved exactly? God sent scripture through the ages as well...but the problem is you don't think messages from God in form of scripture are 'evolved' enough for you...if it claims to come from God we shouldn't follow it cause its archaic but human made declarations are the pinnacle of evolution..the standard by which all should be judged?
The bastion of liberty in today's 'liberated' world can invade and pillage another country because it has the might thus the right to...i don't see anything evolved about that...perhaps you do? Did they by chance use bullets instead of broadswords? Oh but people argue against it y'know...yeah i'm sure they argued against the romans back in the day too, we have had world wars, bosnia, palestine, sudan...anyone see a pattern here? No one does a damn thing unless it's in their INTEREST to...all declarations be damned...how is that evolved when it's been going on forever?
The point is not about a magic cure my friend the point is how is it EVOLVED? By shifting relative standards in the sands of time?
Of course not. But you should not appeal to emotions. Mai Lai massacre in Vietnam is indeed barbaric. So was the World Trade Centre Atrocity! and so was the Nazi holoucaust. But our collective consciouss abhors such acts. While Moses descendants celebrated wipping out the Philistines from the Promised Land, we can do no such thing. We can only try to come to terms with this area of darkness in the human soul...
But you can appeal to emotions by asking everyone to love and hug one another? Any enlightened guided human would abhor acts of cruelty no matter what time period they are coming from...you think people in this day and age don't celebrate the wiping off of their opponents? saddam? bin laden? toppling statues with great glee and gusto and universally awknowledged on all major news channels as a great day for FREEDOM?
No Nadia I don't have problems with that at all. I don't have problems with other peoples belief. But when they tell that their scripture is the absolute truth/whole truth and nothing but the truth then I will always ask them this question How can you be sure?
Every person's surety is their own...if they think its whatever truth why does that trouble you?
I am not gauging anyone's spiritual progress here. Perhaps we can discuss this under another thread? It is quite important I think...
You said in your previous post's
Wandering aimlessly Nadia is not bad. But you have to come realise yourself that you are wandering aimlessly. This is the key to spiritual progress....
So apparently you know the key to spritual progress? For you? Does it have to be the same for me? What if wandering around aimlessly is not my key to spritual progress but scripture is?
Lets concentrate on above because that was what the original argument was about. So lets begin
The original argument was also about why the quran is archaic no ? and then you brought in that evolved thingy...anyhow...if you want just respond to this and start a new thread for the other's...
How can we apply above kind of morality now. So tell me Nadia since you are expert on this. What does it mean? mquran said it means gift/profit. Please enlighten me?
Since i am expert on this i shall refer you to the posts done previously in this thread where mq shared his understandings...perhaps it shall become clearer?
Regards,
Nadia -
collective consciousness, has not except for the guided,
So only the GUIDED have a evolved consciouness? And guided according to Scripture?
...but the problem is you don't think messages from God in form of scripture are 'evolved' enough for you...
How is distributing "spoils of war" (or call gifts or whatever you want to call it) evolved morality? How is marking/chopping hands of thief evolved morality?
A Evolved consciouss will abhor such acts. We as humans abhor such acts enought to come together and delcare Universal Human Rights.
if it claims to come from God we shouldn't follow it cause its archaic but
Yes, it claims. But how can you be sure Nadia? What makes you certain that it is from God? How can you be sure it is God's words and not humans? Language of the scripture is 6th Arabia. The Morality of the scripture is 6th Arabia...
human made declarations are the pinnacle of evolution..the standard by which all should be judged?
What is wrong with that? We set the standards, we should be judged by this standdards. It is a collective effort. We can set standards to meet the challenges of the future. Instead of diving into scripture and pontificate on the meaning of a word or verse, and lose ourselves in the quagmire of translations, we can devise rules that best serve us as a society.
The bastion of liberty in today's 'liberated' world can invade and pillage another country because it has the might thus the right to..
It was this very liberty that you despise that allowed individuals to fly planes into buildings killing thousands of innocent lives. It is this very liberty that had allowed individuals to blow up trains with hundreds of people inside.
No one does a damn thing unless it's in their INTEREST to...all declarations be damned...how is that evolved when it's been going on forever?
We have democracy and principles of liberty. This will one day will embrace all humanity. I am sure of it.
The point is not about a magic cure my friend the point is how is it EVOLVED? By shifting relative standards in the sands of time?
But to you scripture is a magic cure for all the worlds ills! But the standards of the scripture is indeed stuck in the sand of 6th Arabia.
But you can appeal to emotions by asking everyone to love and hug one another? Any enlightened guided human would abhor acts of cruelty no matter what time period they are coming from...
I say more and more of humanity is becoming to abhor cruelty.
you think people in this day and age don't celebrate the wiping off of their opponents? saddam? bin laden? toppling statues with great glee and gusto and universally awknowledged on all major news channels as a great day for FREEDOM?
No, collective consciouss of humanity would not celebrate any form of cruelty. Do you prefer Saddam the dictator then?
Every person's surety is their own...if they think its whatever truth why does that trouble you?
You are wrong there. Nothing troubles me. We are having a debate here. Why should your belief trouble me?
I am not gauging anyone's spiritual progress here. Perhaps we can discuss this under another thread? It is quite important I think...
You said in your previous post's
Wandering aimlessly Nadia is not bad. But you have to come realise yourself that you are wandering aimlessly. This is the key to spiritual progress....
So apparently you know the key to spritual progress? For you? Does it have to be the same for me? What if wandering around aimlessly is not my key to spritual progress but scripture is?
Yes, this is the insight of lot of people in the past ages. But if you say key to your spiritual progress for you is scritpre. Then that is your belief and I will respect that. But spoon fed wisdom is useless unless you experience the truth yourself...
Lets concentrate on above because that was what the original argument was about. So lets begin
Since i am expert on this i shall refer you to the posts done previously in this thread where mq shared his understandings...perhaps it shall become clearer?
I thought you would make it clearer to me.
But perhaps not...Cheeers.
Regards,
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Peace Lotetree,
So only the GUIDED have a evolved consciouness? And guided according to Scripture?
The guided whether by scripture or otherwise are individually evolved...there is a difference between individual evolution of thought which is something always present throughout the ages in various humans and your collective great blob of quivering conciousness...note the importance of whether...does NOT discount scripture or other paths...
How is distributing "spoils of war" (or call gifts or whatever you want to call it) evolved morality? How is marking/chopping hands of thief evolved morality?
A Evolved consciouss will abhor such acts. We as humans abhor such acts enought to come together and delcare Universal Human Rights.
Are your delicate sensibilities offended by distributing gifts among the people for example? Or marking a person's hand like marking his record for doing time in jail? This is what ruffles your feathers is it?
Yes, it claims. But how can you be sure Nadia? What makes you certain that is from God? How can you be sure it is God's words and not humans?
God guides whom He wills...If my intelligence and reasoning and intuition lead me to believe that scripture are God's words, that is my surety...are you saying that unless God himself came down in person and told you LO! That is my book! Follow! we should not follow scripture just by reasoning and understanding/intuition/perception alone? Who do you think guides us whether to scripture or to other paths?
Language of the scripture is 6th Arabia. The Morality of the scripture is 6th Arabia.
Rightttt...ookay then...this forum is all about the revival of the reading from ages of dust and neglect and archaic translators...do read some of the quran study threads sometime...
What is wrong with that? We set the standards, we should be judged by this standdards. It is a collective effort. We can set standards to meet the challenges of the future. Instead of diving into scripture and pontificate on the meaning of a word or verse, and lose ourselves in the quagmire of translations.
Once again, then what is your problem if a majority of people say decide to set the standards of the quran in their country? It's up to people to choose their standard yes?
It was this very liberty that you despise that allowed individuals to fly planes into buildings killing thousands innocent lives. It is this very liberty that had allowed individuals to blow up trains with hundreds of people inside.
It was liberty that i despised that allowed individuals to fly planes into buildings? Maybe you ought to rethink this statement and then post it... lol
savage_carrot wrote
No one does a damn thing unless it's in their INTEREST to...all declarations be damned...how is that evolved when it's been going on forever?Lotetree
We have democracy and principles of liberty.
Did you NOT get the point? The romans too had a republic..read on...maybe it will all seem very familiar to you...
http//www.barca.fsnet.co.uk/rome-republic-constitution.htm
But to you scripture is a magic cure for all the worlds ills! But the standards of the scripture is indeed stuck in the sand of 6th Arabia.
I said The point is not about a magic cure my friend the point is how is it EVOLVED?
and you tell me i say it's a magic cure? Nice dive from the actual question which was how is your universal manmade blob EVOLVED? Care to try your hand at the question again? The standards of the scripture to YOU are stuck...maybe because you don't want to put some effort into actually seeing what it says...
No, collective consciouss of humanity would not celebrate any form of cruelty. Do you prefer Saddam the dictator then?
Where is this collective blob then? Come on let it out...so who actually celebrated? Where was this blob then? hiding and quaking in fear? Not collective enough? I care not about saddam...we are talking about the PRINCIPLE of the thing...where you talk about the decendents of moses celebrating but refuse to awknowledge it is happening NOW as well...
By the way, do you think the us was okay in invading iraq? Do answer...Yes, this is the insight of lot of people in the past ages.
Oooh the sages return...and of course since a LOT of people have the same insight thats IT....
But spoon fed wisdom is useless unless you experience the truth yourself...
And then you ask me to spoonfeed you what the quran say's about spoils of war when it's already been discussed just some posts back? No matter...
Regards,
Nadia -
Hello Nadia,
...there is a difference between individual evolution of thought which is something always present throughout the ages in various humans and your collective great blob of quivering conciousness...
You said human nature does not change and now you are saying individual consciouness does evolve?
Are your delicate sensibilities offended by distributing gifts among the people for example? Or marking a person's hand like marking his record for doing time in jail? This is what ruffles your feathers is it?
Those "gifts" as you call it are "spoils of war". I suppose this does not bother your consciouness does it?
Yes, it claims. But how can you be sure Nadia? What makes you certain that is from God? How can you be sure it is God's words and not humans?
God guides whom He wills...
That is very arbitary of God is it not? I thought he was most compassionate and most merciful. So He guides according to his whim?
Where is the justice in that? Where is the fairness in that?If my intelligence and reasoning and intuition lead me to believe that scripture are God's words, that is my surety...
are you saying that unless God himself came down in person and told you LO! That is my book! Follow!Why not Nadia? Why can't we have a revelation like the Prophets so that we too can have certainty?
Once again, then what is your problem if a majority of people say decide to set the standards of the quran in their country? It's up to people to choose their standard yes?
They have Nadia, it is called Democracy and Principles of Personal Liberty.
And I choose to live in it.It was liberty that i despised that allowed individuals to fly planes into buildings? Maybe you ought to rethink this statement and then post it... lol
I meant to say don't blame liberty for people acting out savagery. Valuing liberty is something that has to be nurtured and cultivated. It takes degree of courage and determination to appreciate Freedom and Liberty.
Did you NOT get the point? The romans too had a republic..read on...maybe it will all seem very familiar to you...
I did not know that Romans had a modern day democratic republic on the model of the Eurpeans?
Care to try your hand at the question again? The standards of the scripture to YOU are stuck...maybe because you don't want to put some effort into actually seeing what it says...
I asked you to enlighten me on this but you did not want to!
Yes, this is the insight of lot of people in the past ages.
Oooh the sages return...and of course since a LOT of people have the same insight thats IT....
May be it is Nadia but you can't see it, because you have your head in "Scripture-Cukoo-Land" like mquran.
And then you ask me to spoonfeed you what the quran say's about spoils of war when it's already been discussed just some posts back? No matter...
Hey you hardly gave me any?
My mouth is still open, I am still waiting.. -)Regards,
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Peace Lotetree,
You said human nature does not change and now you are saying individual consciouness does evolve?
Human nature through the ages remains the same...you cannot say that humans are not humans in the different times? That's human nature ...Individual consciousness is how you perceive things, how you control your nature, how you understand things...does that mean you suddenly transform into an angel with a halo and change your nature? You still have the same human nature you just harness it or know what to do with it better...thats why anyone can revert...there is no such thing that now i have an evolved consciousness that i'm suddenly free of my human nature...
Those "gifts" as you call it are "spoils of war". I suppose this does not bother your consciouness does it?
If you noticed the posts before then maybe it behooved you to try and understand what they were saying? Here's a clip from bro Wakas's post in the same thread
It is not only mquran who thinks this. I also think "spoils of war" is highly debateable. Unfortunately 'anfal' is not used elswhere in al quran to thoroughly refute the 'spoils of war' claim but its core meaning is gain/gift/addition. And clearly the words 'of war' are not there. Thus, you must admit, at the very least, it is an interpretation/extrapolation.
That is very arbitary of God is it not? I thought he was most compassionate and most merciful. So He guides according to his whim.
Where is the justice in that? Where is the fairness in that?What, do you disagree that God guides whom He wills? Are you telling me what God should do? Are you telling me what God should consider fair and just? Are you setting the standards for God?
Why not Nadia? Why can't we have a revelation like the Prophets so that we too can have certainty?
roll Yeah, God send down the angels then we shall believe...
They have Nadia, it is called Democracy and Principles of Personal Liberty.
Huh? I thought you said the quran was stuck in the 6th century?
savage_carrot wrote
Once again, then what is your problem if a majority of people say decide to set the standards of the quran in their country? It's up to people to choose their standard yes?
I meant to say don't blame liberty for people acting out savagery. Valuing liberty is something that has to be nurtured and cultivated. It takes degree of courage and determination to appreciate Freedom and Liberty.
Oh and i said i blame liberty for people flying into buildings? And what does the rest of your statement got to do with what you actually said in the other post...nevermind... ?
I did not know that Romans had a modern day democratic republic on the model of the Eurpeans?
Did u read the link? Did you notice familiar patterns? probably not...
I asked you to enlighten me on this but you did not want to?
Seriously lotetree, two people have posted their thoughts on this subject of war spoils...if you are really interested, start with those...ask them why they think the way they do...in fact start a whole new thread in the study section, i'll participate even...thats why i think you are not interested, cause when they did post it, you never even replied to their salient points, just the more is better mentality...
What is the PRINCIPLE? So I am lost there?
roll
May be it is Nadia but you can't see it, because you have your head in "Scripture-Cukoo-Land" like mquran.
Oh and wandering around aimlessly without a plan, waiting for that voice to talk to you personally is so NOT la la land...i hope i don't end up in bedlam telling the doctor "you don't understand..it's a nice voice...it tells me nice things"...the key to spritual progress is losing your mind first...indeed...
Hey you hadly gave me any?
Hardly gave you any what?
Regards,
Nadia -
Are you telling me what God should consider fair and just?
Why not?
Are you setting the standards for God?
God set himself standards - I am asking why does He not stick by it instead of "He guides" on his Whim? This is arbitary and dictatorial God!
Why not Nadia? Why can't we have a revelation like the Prophets so that we too can have certainty?
roll Yeah, God send down the angels then we shall believe...
Why not Nadia? Why should only the Prophet have such priviliges? Is that Fair or Just?
Seriously lotetree, two people have posted their thoughts on this subject of war spoils...
I wanted to hear it from you.
Oh and wandering around aimlessly without a plan, waiting for that voice to talk to you personally is so NOT la la land...i hope i don't end up in bedlam telling the doctor "you don't understand..it's a nice voice...it tells me nice things"...the key to spritual progress is losing your mind first...indeed...
Do you think Muhammad had a Plan Nadia? No he did not. He reasoned, He reflected, he contemplated and He meditated. And did he rise upto highest heavens for the revelations? No. Revelations is something that happend within himself. Revealation is an event that took place in his soul. God is just Nadia, if you seek God yourself you will find God, not out there but within yourself as did Muhammad...
Regards,
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Peace Lotetree,
Why not?
Because you are NOT God...you don't 'get' to decide what God's standards are or should be...
God set himself standards - I am asking why does He not stick by it instead of "He guides" on his Whim? This is arbitary and dictatorial God!
He sets the standard because He's The God...and if you believe God is just and merciful in the best possible way then the rest of your statement is just blowin' in the wind...
Why not Nadia? Why should only the Prophet have such priviliges? Is that Fair or Just?
As before, you do not decide whats just and fair, God does...so maybe it's best to quell one's ego and arrogance in assuming that we know better than God whats just and fair and how God should be...
I wanted to hear it from you.
Why are you not addressing the people who posted about it before me? Is there some reason for your selective reasoning?
Do you think Muhammad had a Plan Nadia? No he did not. He reasoned, He reflected, he contemplated and He meditated. And did he rise upto highest heavens for the revelations? No. Revelations is something that happend within himself. Revealation is an event that took place in his soul. God is just Nadia, if you seek God yourself you will find God, not out there but within yourself as did Muhammad...
All of this just doesn't explain your phobia with people following the scripture using their reason or even God guiding people to the scripture..
Regards,
Nadia -
He sets the standard because He's The God...
But if He does not stick by His standard then he is Unjust God, yes?
Guiding on a whim is unjust is it not?As before, you do not decide whats just and fair, God does...so maybe it's best to quell one's ego and arrogance in assuming that we know better than God whats just and fair and how God should be...
Why not? If we can conceive of JUST and FAIR then GOD should also know this because He created us?
All of this just doesn't explain your phobia with people following the scripture using their reason or even God guiding people to the scripture..
You told me it was pointless going without a PLAN, and I have shown you that Prophet Muhammad did not have a PLAN, he found GOD by sheer will of his efforts...
Regards,
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Peace Lotetree,
But if He does not stick by His standard then he is Unjust God, yes?
Guiding on a whim is unjust is it not?
Why not? If we can conceive of JUST and FAIR then GOD should also know this because He created us?God in His infinite wisdom knows more about justice and mercy than any mere human...so for God in His infinite mercy and wisdom to lay down the standards is far better than any standards humans can conceive of. Maybe humans just aren't on a high enough level to see any further yet, the whole picture? idea
You told me it was pointless going without a PLAN, and I have shown you that Prophet Muhammad did not have a PLAN, he found GOD by sheer will of his efforts...
In all my posts i have NOT discounted the idea of God guiding people other than the scripture as well...infact you on the other hand, constantly keep on about the horrors of following scripture...maybe you should balance the scales a bit?
Regards,
Nadia. -
In all my posts i have NOT discounted the idea of God guiding people other than the scripture as well...]infact you on the other hand, constantly keep on about the horrors of following scripture...maybe you should balance the scales a bit?
Regards,
Nadia.You are quite right Nadia.
I just want to make people aware that they should not make idol out scritpure. But I take your point.Thanks.
It was nice talking to you... -)
I enjoyed your writing -)See you around the forum...
Take care.
Regards,
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Salaamun alaikum,
At Nadia's request, I will attempt to explain why I believe there's no such thing as 'spoils of war'. First however, I would like to assert a point and that is
Al-Quraan is NOT meant to fit into our personal idea of what should be ethics. Arrogant individuals who think they are too evolved for Al-Quraan should know that Allah says
"What! WILL YOU TEACH ALLAH ABOUT YOUR DEEN? But Allah knows all that is in the heavens and on earth He has full knowledge of all things.
They impress on thee as a favour that they have embraced Islam. Say, "Count not your Islam as a favour upon me Nay, Allah has conferred a favour upon you that He has guided you to the faith, if ye be true and sincere. (49/16-17)So I advise students of Al-Quraan like myself, use Al-Quraan to explain itself (as opposed to blindly reading translations) but once you've arrived at your conclusion, TAKE A STAND. Don't be waved by slogans like 'democracy' , 'advanced morality', 'universal declarations' , 'modernity'. These are only slogans. When The Hegemon so chooses, he would not hesitate to daisy-cut , napalm, or atomise you into the stone age. It doesn't work both ways.
Ok, now on 'spoils of war'. We will first note that al-quraan has a word for both 'wealth' and 'war' which are 'maal' and 'harb' respectively. Neither of these words are used in 'spoils of war'.
Secondly, we need to see who actually created this whole history of 'spoils of war'. Sunni historians, who basically called Muhammad ibn Abdullah a brigand for his raids.
Third, we need to look at 8/1 which states
They ask thee concerning AL-ANFAAL. Say AL-ANFAAL are at the disposal of Allah and the Messenger So fear Allah, and keep straight the relations between yourselves Obey Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe." (8/1)
Al-anfaal is rooted in NFL and another occurence of this word is
And pray in the small watches of the morning NAFILAH for thee soon will thy Lord raise thee to a Station of Praise and Glory(17/7
The context of the above negates any notion of 'spoils of war'.
We also need to look at 8/41
And know that out of all the booty that ye may acquire (in war), a fifth share is assigned to Allah,- and to the Messenger, and to near relatives, orphans, the needy, and the wayfarer,- if ye do believe in Allah and in the revelation We sent down to Our servant on the Day of Testing,- the Day of the meeting of the two forces. For Allah hath power over all things.
Notice that '(in war)' is an extrapolation. The text not only doesn't contain 'in war', it also has a more denying phrase which is 'from anything' (min shay). As for the word 'booty' , the word 'ghanim' which appears in the story of Musa (20/1 where it means sheep. It's similar to when Allah uses the word 'an'aam' to mean 'cattle' and also 'pleasures, benefits'.
None of these things refer to anything you loot off people. This is a clear interpolation perpertrated by the enemies of Al-Quraan in order to detract from its message. However, applying Quranic internal principles, we can easily transcend this.
thanks and peace.
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To be fair this is the latest, Progressive Muslims Translation of the verse. If mquran has any argument then I suggest he take that with them.
They ask you regarding the spoils of war, Say ?The spoils of war are for God and the messenger.? So be aware of God, and be upright in matters between you; and obey God and His messenger if you are believers.
So can you translate above for me mquran?
Regards,
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Don't be waved by slogans like 'democracy' , 'advanced morality', 'universal declarations' , 'modernity'. These are only slogans.
And those of you who value DEMOCRACY, FREEDOM and PRINCIPLES PERSONAL LIBERTY do make a STAND, against mquran's despising your personal liberty and FREEDOM. They are not slogans, they are very thing that gives the FREEDOM to be FREE-MINDS. Let see if this FORUM is indeed a FREE-MINDS are not!
Regards,
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So can you translate above for me mquran?
What you would say is 'spoils of war', I would understand as 'additional benefits'.
And those of you who value DEMOCRACY, FREEDOM and PRINCIPLES PERSONAL LIBERTY do make a STAND, against mquran's despising your personal liberty and FREEDOM. They are not slogans, they are very thing that gives the FREEDOM to be FREE-MINDS. Let see if this FORUM is indeed a FREE-MINDS are not!
This guy really cracks me up, I have to say. The business of selling the London Bridge (an actual scam in history) would have been a success if they had customers like this.
In the UK, 2 million people marched against the war in iraq. The war still went on.
In the USA, the Patriots Acts effectively nullifies any right to 'dissent'. In the 50ies McCarthyism demonised communists in such a way that the word is almost a bad word in the states even now.
Every polity has laws. If you break those laws, your freedom is gone. Lets not let SLOGANS equal REALITIES.
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Don't be waved by slogans like 'democracy' , 'advanced morality', 'universal declarations' , 'modernity'. These are only slogans.
And those of you who value DEMOCRACY, FREEDOM and PRINCIPLES PERSONAL LIBERTY do make a STAND, against mquran's despising your personal liberty and FREEDOM. They are not slogans, they are very thing that gives the FREEDOM to be FREE-MINDS. Let see if this FORUM is indeed a FREE-MINDS are not!
Regards,Read what FREE-MINDS.ORG is all about before you interpret it your way. Anyways, there is something missing in it though, i.e. the fact that the quran is used as the criterion. I think the site maintainers should include that.
<<<"...O people of the Scripture, let us come to a common agreement between us and between you; that 1) we do not serve except God, and 2) do not set up anything at all with Him, and 3) that none of us takes each other as patrons besides God...." (The Message 364)
This website has been created for all people who have a desire to allow God into their lives and follow His path alone...
This website invites all people of various beliefs (Sunni, Shia, Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Bahai, Agnostic, Humanist, and even Atheists) to come and examine for themselves the system of Submission/Islam which is based on God Alone.
Many of you may outwardly be content with your current faith or that which you inherited from your parents and community...but to some out there, there will always be a tugging at the back of their mind that 'there is something more', and that 'some things don't always make sense'...
If you are one of those people, then open your eyes, put on your thinking cap, and welcome to an open examination of the system of Submission/Islam which very few know about...>>>
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Peace mq, lt, all...
LT, it was an interesting discussion...thank you!
Mq,
Thank you for explaining it to us again...
What you would say is 'spoils of war', I would understand as 'additional benefits'.
It makes sense to me with the explanations provided...
The business of selling the London Bridge (an actual scam in history) would have been a success if they had customers like this.
Count Victor Lustig sold the Eiffel tower twice )
Every polity has laws. If you break those laws, your freedom is gone. Lets not let SLOGANS equal REALITIES.
Indeed...
Regards,
Nadia