Salaat Solved.
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Peace.
Ayman Wrote
Discussion and oration are both methods of "salat". Both of those methods are ways of LEARNING. Discussions can happen at anytime but people can endlessly discuss things and get stuck on the same points. There is a need to go back and reflect during special times so that one can bring new ideas into the discussions.
This brings me to the explanation as to why we are to recite the Quran at dawn ? ?so that one can bring new ideas into the discussions? (OMG!) So that special time to get the fresh ideas for the discussions is dawn, and the source of the fresh ideas is the Quran!
Idolfree1 wrote
I do not think it is the best statement. First, my position is that salaat = process, period. Anything else added to the word "process" is just the implication. With that said, discussion process is not wrong, but it leaves it open to be regularly talking to other humans. This is not what I see from the God's message.
Process is just a general term for anything that is done, so hajja (debate) is a process of interpersonal knowledge verification, and salat (discussion) is a process of interpersonal knowledge transaction. Charity is also a process of taking from your own pocket and giving to someone else, a transaction has been made, and this is a process. So, in my opinion, saying that salat = process doesn?t give it much definition at all, because we can tell from the context of the verses containing salat that it is a process, it gives no further indication as to what the process is to do with.
Idolfree1 wrote
There must be more thought put into the TIMING , which is when the day and night MERGE. It is deeply symbolic, and should be studied more. It is rather an INNER discussion with the God, not outwardly talking to humans.
Brainwave has been uploaded towards the end of this post?
Idolfree1 wrote
But do you see how this explanation forces you to leave HAJJ (the debate) out of the picture? The coming together to0 debate(discuss) the God's plan/words in order to make life better? It does not work, respectfully. Trust me, I know it feels really good right now because you found something that seems like it fits momentarily, but as time progresses, you will see that it does not fit.
I would disagree here, I originally thought I was just jumping onto the bandwagon, but the more you look into it, the more convincing it gets. As I explained earlier hajj (debate) and salat (discussion) are two distinctly different things. Hajja (debate) is a process of interpersonal knowledge verification, and salat is a process of interpersonal knowledge transaction. The two are distinctly different. If you are talking to a stranger asking him for directions, he tells you, and then you ask for more clarification in more detail, e.g. how far is it, will it be open at this time etc., you would never think of this as a debate, you would say it is a discussion, because information is not being verified, it is being transacted.
Idolfree1 wrote
Please take time to think about WHY DAWN and DUSK are mentioned as the times.
These are not the best times for discussion. Isnt it better to discuss during daily life, at work and other places we go to to meet people? And at night we sleep and study. So IN BETWEEN those times, just after waking and just before bed, the times where we are not out in the world, or sleeping, we meditate, that is contemplate on the WHOLE(God) in order to get the answers from our call(dua). This is the process by which we LEARN in life.
Now for the brainwave I mentioned earlier. WHY DAWN and DUSK? Here?s a perfectly logical explanation which gives further evidence that salat = discussion. You said these are not the best times for discussion. God knows that people live in families, he knows that the parent/parents go to work during the day, he knows that they have to spend time earning a living, and they cannot perform the salat (discussion) while they are working, e.g. Homer Simpson would not be able to do salat during the day because he has to focus on his job of making sure the power plant is safe in working order and has great responsibility over others, and he needs to concentrate on his job. When at work during the day, you cannot do salat simultaneously, because full concentration is required for the job. Similarly, when the kids go to school, they can?t do salat because they are concentrating on their work. Coming to the topic of meeting people, when are the times when it is more or less certain that people would have others around them to discuss things? At home with their families, when everyone is back from their daily commitments. So that ensures that discussion can take place, because the times around dawn and dusk are times when family members are usually together to do the salat (discussion). Further evidence that salat = discussion is found in 11114 ? ?the adjacent parts of the night?. Why before dawn and after dusk? The reason is because eating breakfast and evening meal would in the natural situation require light for hunting animals etc., and that is after sunrise. A discussion can easily be held before sunrise and after sunset, because at those times, there is sufficient light to know what is going on. So salat at dusk and dawn is a family thing, where the social unit becomes stronger in faith, and these social units work together forming a community of strong believers. Meditation however can be extremely difficult to do for some, and does not have the benefit of forming strong family bonds to create directly a society of strong believers. Salat does not have to be translated as ?family discussion? although this may apply to many at dawn and dusk. 3356 obviously cannot be translated as process or meditate, because God does not process on Muhammad, and he does not meditate on Muhammad either. What he does do is salat (discuss) on him. And further evidence that it is discussion is found in the fact that God is with his controllers. Now going back to the point of debates and discussions. God would obviously not be debating with his powers because his powers would not dare to criticise and try to verify what God says to them, they are discussing, knowledge is being transacted.
Salat = discussion is the solution that works perfectly in every verse, and it also explains as I have just demonstrated why salat is performed at times of Dawn and Dusk. All praise is due to God almighty.
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Peace,
I have tried my best to follow on this thread and I personally think that idolfree has a good point. Meditation is very important and that would fit better, to meditate on a matter is to think about it and to meditate as a community could mean to simply discuss as Natu is saying.
Try meditation and see if that works, speech is powerful and discussions are good but meditation includes thought and reasoning in our mind then actually speaking our thoughts after we have mediatated on a subject, this is simply a language barrier and a play of words. Discussion restricts the meaning i think.
This is not a simple one, God 'discussing' just does not sound right, he can will it and it will be, God is not involved in things like this, if he was then the understanding would mean that God is teaching the powers about the Prophet, I just don't get it. Let me go back and see what other translators have interpreted the verse as.
And what is the problem wit 'God and His angels/powers help and support the prophet"?!
Nural
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Meditation is very important and that would fit better
The evidence clearly proves otherwise.
And what is the problem wit 'God and His angels/powers help and support the prophet"?!
There's no problem with God and his powers helping and supporting the prophet, but there's just a tiny little catch Nural, it doesn't say that in the Quran anywhere.
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Salaamun alaikum Natu and all,
Thanks for alerting me to the thread. Here are my notes on salaat
- 5/106 shows that as-salaat is done with even those who DON'T believe (because the verse is addressed to those who believe and says to co-opt people outside the group)
-5/106 shows that as-salaat has something to do with agreeing to something, even committing to something.
-9/11 shows that 'al-kafireen' can establish as-salaat, produce az-zakaat and can be considered 'brothers in ad-deen'.
-5/6 gives instructions to those who believe, to wash oneself before actually doing something.
-29/45-46 shows that as-salaat DOES include argumentation (from the word tujadiloo in 46)
-11/114 tells me that as-salaat is done twice daily and involves acts of 'ihsaan'
that's all i can think of for now..
thanks and salam
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peace brother mq,
5106 does not show those things of slw. The word "after" is there, thus the only thing one could infer from that sign is that slw was a regular occurrence and finite. Unless their is a grammatical implication implying that one would hold them after the slw (i.e. their slw), but I dont think thats the case.
Wakas
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peace be upon you brother,
I think there are 3 options, listed in order of most likely to least likely
If one follows the object of reference in the sign, it clearly references believers. Thus the salat is likely to be of the believers.
If one implies it is some kind of well-known /public / formal thing, hence the definite article 'al', which involves believers with others (as in this case) then this is possible.
If one proposes it is of the "two others" then I would expect the grammar of 'al salat' to be different. 'salatihim' or something, or the dual, whatever that is.
I thought we were differing on something but perhaps not. Can you clarify your view on these signs? Preferably with an actual translation of the word salat.
Its mentioned after the act of giving witness to something, showing commitment to a particular act.
Its interesting you say that. The only act mentioned is that of will-making. Clearly, no written material is used if someone is having to give a testimony of the will and its beneficiaries, thus how is will-making communicated? wink
Wakas
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Hi,
I see that the Salat-discussion is as fresh as ever.
Many suggestions have come up, but from what I can see, the Qur?an is using the expression in a wide sense. Therefore, to limit this to only ?discussion?, or ?connection?, or ?meditation? etc., does not seem to fit, however far we stretch the understanding of the various words.I also see that to translate it as ?process? may have its flaws, but at least, that is an open expression only implying that something is to be done, or kept up etc. So, the ?process of focusing on, and betterment of, the practices of Islam?, through ?discussion?, ?connection?, ?meditation?, or whatever else you feel a need for in order to follow the system in a better way, may be referred to as ?salaat?.
Or just simply ?making oneself aware? of the system of God through various kinds of processes referred to as ?salaat?And to keep this focus purely on Islam, not mixing in, or confusing it with, other things may be the ?zakat?-part.
To make yourself more alert and aware of the ?process of focusing? you perform some routine actions to prepare and concentrate yourself, hence the ?cleansing?-procedures.
Must admit I haven?t thought this through thoroughly so, Hit me!
Regds
Ali Omar
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Salaamun alaikum Wakas,
If one follows the object of reference in the sign, it clearly references believers. Thus the salat is likely to be of the believers.
Im sorry man, but I cant agree because the word 'akhara' and 'ghairukum' were used, implying that people outside the believers circle were involved.
If one implies it is some kind of well-known /public / formal thing, hence the definite article 'al', which involves believers with others (as in this case) then this is possible.
It's something official, dunno about something formal or public. To me, the official committing to the will is 'as-salaat'.
If one proposes it is of the "two others" then I would expect the grammar of 'al salat' to be different. 'salatihim' or something, or the dual, whatever that is.
Right, right, I take your point here. Perhaps its because its an official, definite process. 'al' in the 'as-salaat' prohibits there to be 'al-salatihim', i conject.
I thought we were differing on something but perhaps not. Can you clarify your view on these signs? Preferably with an actual translation of the word salat.
salaat - something which ties, commit you. thats my basic meaning. It can be something official, or some psychological boost you need in order to establish ad-deen.
Its interesting you say that. The only act mentioned is that of will-making. Clearly, no written material is used if someone is having to give a testimony of the will and its beneficiaries, thus how is will-making communicated?
Well, I should've also mentioned 9/11. To me, 9/11 is a key verse showing the nature of as-salaat. People who 'taabu' (return , if u like), establish as-salaat and produce az-zakaat are your brothers in ad-deen'. So as-salat here is some kind of commtting act these people do after thier transgression (the context will probably explait it better, but why do i need to mention that to a reader of mustansir mir..lol).
thanks and peace.
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Peace be upon you Natu,
Thanks again for sparking this sallat issue again, this has always been my favorite subject! Very exciting!
This brings me to the explanation as to why we are to recite the Quran at dawn ? ?so that one can bring new ideas into the discussions? (OMG!) So that special time to get the fresh ideas for the discussions is dawn, and the source of the fresh ideas is the Quran!
This reading(quran) points us to Al Kitaab(the universe-book). The universe is what is to be read overall, reading THIS reading(quran) is not wrong since it is being verified as accurate. BUt don't become isolated to one book, one must read what the God speaks from the horizons to within ourselves.
Idolfree1 wrote
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I do not think it is the best statement. First, my position is that salaat = process, period. Anything else added to the word "process" is just the implication. With that said, discussion process is not wrong, but it leaves it open to be regularly talking to other humans. This is not what I see from the God's message.Natu
Process is just a general term for anything that is done, so hajja (debate) is a process of interpersonal knowledge verification, and salat (discussion) is a process of interpersonal knowledge transaction.If we stop right here and read what you just wrote, it will not make proper sense. Please be patient with me and check it out. You said
- so debate is a process ...
then said
- and process is a process...
No, salaat is the process. Fore example, the general term "submission" is used for Islam, but the questioner must ask, "submit to what?" The same is to be said of "process", we ask, "what process", and we find trhe answer laid out for us. It is the process of meditation, the coming together of the conscious and subconscious just like the day and night merging.
Charity is also a process of taking from your own pocket and giving to someone else, a transaction has been made, and this is a process. So, in my opinion, saying that salat = process doesn?t give it much definition at all, because we can tell from the context of the verses containing salat that it is a process, it gives no further indication as to what the process is to do with.
Yes, it gives it as much definition as the verses about "islam". Submit to what?
Idolfree1 wrote
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But do you see how this explanation forces you to leave HAJJ (the debate) out of the picture? The coming together to0 debate(discuss) the God's plan/words in order to make life better? It does not work, respectfully. Trust me, I know it feels really good right now because you found something that seems like it fits momentarily, but as time progresses, you will see that it does not fit.I would disagree here, I originally thought I was just jumping onto the bandwagon, but the more you look into it, the more convincing it gets. As I explained earlier hajj (debate) and salat (discussion) are two distinctly different things. Hajja (debate) is a process of interpersonal knowledge verification, and salat is a process of interpersonal knowledge transaction. The two are distinctly different. If you are talking to a stranger asking him for directions, he tells you, and then you ask for more clarification in more detail, e.g. how far is it, will it be open at this time etc., you would never think of this as a debate, you would say it is a discussion, because information is not being verified, it is being transacted.
I cannot agree with that. I wont debate it at this point, I am sure as we continue this debate/discussion(hajja) it will get clearer. Actually I do have a question to leave you with, when you asked the stranger for directions, was it just after a private time of undress or just before it? What I mean is, we are told two of the private times of undress are before dawn salaat and after dusk salaat, this indicates a distinct timing for SOMETHING, would it be more sensible to be a time of meditation or a time of asking directions?
Again, 'discussion" does play a part, thats why it seems to fit in many places, but you are limiting it by saying only discussion. The true discssion is between the God and Creation through meditation.
Idolfree1 wrote
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Please take time to think about WHY DAWN and DUSK are mentioned as the times.These are not the best times for discussion. Isnt it better to discuss during daily life, at work and other places we go to to meet people? And at night we sleep and study. So IN BETWEEN those times, just after waking and just before bed, the times where we are not out in the world, or sleeping, we meditate, that is contemplate on the WHOLE(God) in order to get the answers from our call(dua). This is the process by which we LEARN in life.
Now for the brainwave I mentioned earlier. WHY DAWN and DUSK? Here?s a perfectly logical explanation which gives further evidence that salat = discussion. You said these are not the best times for discussion. God knows that people live in families, he knows that the parent/parents go to work during the day, he knows that they have to spend time earning a living, and they cannot perform the salat (discussion) while they are working, e.g. Homer Simpson would not be able to do salat during the day because he has to focus on his job of making sure the power plant is safe in working order and has great responsibility over others, and he needs to concentrate on his job.
I have to disagree here. The workplace would be very boring with no discussions. That is totally contradictory to what I witness. Discussions do not stop when people go to work. Are people silent at your job? Lets go back to the "asking directions" scenario, some people work at toll booths, and they are always asked directions, how does this fit in to your understanding?
When at work during the day, you cannot do salat simultaneously, because full concentration is required for the job. Similarly, when the kids go to school, they can?t do salat because they are concentrating on their work. Coming to the topic of meeting people, when are the times when it is more or less certain that people would have others around them to discuss things? At home with their families, when everyone is back from their daily commitments.
So your underfstanding is that these "discussions" are only for your families at home? What about Shuiabs people? Did they all gather into his house?
So that ensures that discussion can take place, because the times around dawn and dusk are times when family members are usually together to do the salat (discussion). Further evidence that salat = discussion is found in 11114 ? ?the adjacent parts of the night?. Why before dawn and after dusk? The reason is because eating breakfast and evening meal would in the natural situation require light for hunting animals etc., and that is after sunrise. A discussion can easily be held before sunrise and after sunset, because at those times, there is sufficient light to know what is going on. So salat at dusk and dawn is a family thing, where the social unit becomes stronger in faith, and these social units work together forming a community of strong believers. Meditation however can be extremely difficult to do for some, and does not have the benefit of forming strong family bonds to create directly a society of strong believers.
Give an example of a difficulty of meditation. I urge you to study meditataion. It is clear from yhour response that you are unfamiliuar with it. Meditation is only a means of getting yourself into the TRANCE state. This is the STATE OF MIND where conditions are inforced or changed. We go into trance states everyday although many people do not realize it. Some of us call it daydreaming and many other names. When people go to church and get all emotionally stirred, that is a TRANCE state. Please, I urge you to see that this is the key.
God's words are given to us to help us CHANGE our behavior. This is a behavior shaping system. But it is important to understand that there is your consciousness (WHO you are) and then there is the SUBconsicous(nafs). The conscious WILLS, the Nafs carries it out. So you say "I want to stop smoking" but you keep right on smoking. That because the consciousness and subconsciousness have not MERGED. It is meditation that allows this, and patience of course Thats why hospitals call clients "patients" winkSalat does not have to be translated as ?family discussion? although this may apply to many at dawn and dusk. 3356 obviously cannot be translated as process or meditate, because God does not process on Muhammad, and he does not meditate on Muhammad either. What he does do is salat (discuss) on him. And further evidence that it is discussion is found in the fact that God is with his controllers. Now going back to the point of debates and discussions. God would obviously not be debating with his powers because his powers would not dare to criticise and try to verify what God says to them, they are discussing, knowledge is being transacted.
Natu, how can you have difficulty seeing the God "meditate" upon mankind, but can see the God "discuss" upon mankind? Wouldn't the mental discussion of meditation fit better and be more logical?
(3356) Surely The God and His controlling forces "meditate" upon the prophet (one in a state of talking to the God). You, those who trust, "meditate" upon him and great greetings.
The process of meditation involves working with the forces of the God, but I have not discussed that yet.
Salat = discussion is the solution that works perfectly in every verse, and it also explains as I have just demonstrated why salat is performed at times of Dawn and Dusk. All praise is due to God almighty.
I cannot make you see differently, but I humbly ask you to keep your mind open and continue the discussion.
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Peace be upon you Nural Amin,
I have tried my best to follow on this thread and I personally think that idolfree has a good point. Meditation is very important and that would fit better, to meditate on a matter is to think about it and to meditate as a community could mean to simply discuss as Natu is saying.
Meditatin is very important, I will fully discuss it here as we continue, but do not get it mixed up with "hajja" discussions/debate. When people talk VERBALLY, it is either a discussion/debate(hajja) or it is arguing(jidala). Salaat deals with going WITHIN, not an outward verbal discussion.
Try meditation and see if that works, speech is powerful and discussions are good but meditation includes thought and reasoning in our mind then actually speaking our thoughts after we have mediatated on a subject, this is simply a language barrier and a play of words. Discussion restricts the meaning i think.
Yes, thats more in line with what I am saying, we go within (salaat) and purify our spirit/mind(nafs), THEN we go outward and hajja(debat/discuss). D
This is not a simple one, God 'discussing' just does not sound right, he can will it and it will be, God is not involved in things like this, if he was then the understanding would mean that God is teaching the powers about the Prophet, I just don't get it. Let me go back and see what other translators have interpreted the verse as.
The God is the WHOLE, when we meditate, we come out of our SEPERATED EGO's and we conntemplate the WHOLE, this is how the God is involved. The God has set up the whole according to LAWS which give us the ability to contemplate. Without mathematics(laws) how could one effectively contemplate?
And what is the problem wit 'God and His angels/powers help and support the prophet"?!
It does not fit with the rest of the exampples and would therefore b esubjective translation. The God is consistent. Laws are consistent so we can find our way. We will never get to the stability of the God's house with subjective translation, it will be like the spiders house.
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Give an example of a difficulty of meditation. I urge you to study meditataion. It is clear from yhour response that you are unfamiliuar with it. Meditation is only a means of getting yourself into the TRANCE state. This is the STATE OF MIND where conditions are inforced or changed. We go into trance states everyday although many people do not realize it. Some of us call it daydreaming and many other names. When people go to church and get all emotionally stirred, that is a TRANCE state. Please, I urge you to see that this is the key.
Hello Idolfree,
I did not realise you speak my language? You have indeed found the KEY!
But tell me how did you come by this? I would love to talk to you about this!...Regards,
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Peace be upon you MQ,
Thanks for alerting me to the thread. Here are my notes on salaat
Good to see you bro. I will share my understandings of the verses you presented.
5/106 shows that as-salaat is done with even those who DON'T believe (because the verse is addressed to those who believe and says to co-opt people outside the group)
-5/106 shows that as-salaat has something to do with agreeing to something, even committing to something.
Meditation is a process that allows us to transcend the thoughts and emotions and become part of the ONE. The evils in the world are a result of people being led by the animal part of them, the animating part, the emotions. Thats why we have all the animal symbolisms, not just in this reading(quran). So when you are getting someone for an important matter as a "Will", the persons should meditate and get themselves pure first,m relaxeed, free from tensions. Emotions require you to become TENSE. So we transcend them through meditation and regain the state of PEACE needed to behave properly.
9/11 shows that 'al-kafireen' can establish as-salaat, produce az-zakaat and can be considered 'brothers in ad-deen'.
Yes, only those who maintain the process of meditation and purify thier spirits/minds can be considered our brothers.
-5/6 gives instructions to those who believe, to wash oneself before actually doing something.
Yes, as was stated, meditation brings us to the original state of ONENESS. Water and earth are symbols of the beginning. Also since we are dealing with being half conscious and half subconscious, at times after waking and before going to bed, we must make sure we do not fall totally asleep, so we use water to awaken the mind.
29/45-46 shows that as-salaat DOES include argumentation (from the word tujadiloo in 46)
How did you make that connection from two different verses? We are to recite the "universe" and maintain the process of meditatin at stated times so we can change our bahavior AND we are to argue(jidala) in ways that are best, which would be "hajja".
-11/114 tells me that as-salaat is done twice daily and involves acts of 'ihsaan'
that's all i can think of for now..
Yes, and we are not limited from "discussions" all day, instead we meditate just as the universe is merging day and night.
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Peace be upon you Lote Tree,
Hello Idolfree,
I did not realise you speak my language? You have indeed found the KEY!
But tell me how did you come by this? I would love to talk to you about this!...Lets talk away! How did I come by it? Meditation and patience That allowed me to see that this reading does not restrict us to a particular book, and that allowed me to gather more wisdom from ancient philosophies (which this reading confirms) and current philosophies. It really becomes clear when we take in the WHOLE of the world, and not just deal with so called "jews christians and muslims". There is so much more info in this Kitaab(universe)
Please feel free to private message me as well if you would like to also discuss this in private.
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Lets talk away! D How did I come by it? Meditation and patience D
That allowed me to see that this reading does not restrict us to a particular book, and that allowed me to gather more wisdom from ancient philosophies (which this reading confirms) and current philosophies. It really becomes clear when we take in the WHOLE of the world, and not just deal with so called "jews christians and muslims". There is so much more info in this Kitaab(universe) DExecellent and you are absolutely right!
Please feel free to private message me as well if you would like to also discuss this in private.
In due course I shall.... -)
Regards,
(I could not post this first time around I hope this time I am lukcy!)
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Salat = discussion is the solution that works perfectly in every verse, and it also explains as I have just demonstrated why salat is performed at times of Dawn and Dusk. All praise is due to God almighty.
I cannot make you see differently, but I humbly ask you to keep your mind open and continue the discussion.
Peace.
I have to take a break from free-minds for a period of time ( cry ), but I assure you that when I come back I will respond in full to whatever I can in this and other salat threads. I must accept that to an extent I have been making the same mistake I am totally against - fixation on one view without exploration. Right now God is making me busy elsewhere, so when he lets me back out here I'll return with a more open mind. Please don't think you can't make me see differently, your understanding does have strong points that I do personally strongly approve of. For now though I would like to thank everyone at free-minds for being there to help me develop myself over the past five months. If I have offended anyone or been a nuisance in anyway please accept my apologies. "I'll be back" as soon as possible by the God's will. arrow
Thanks for everything and may peace be upon you all.
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Peace be upon you Natu,
Noooo! I was feeding off your energy! (
May peace always be upon you, and all throughout your being. Please make sure you come back.
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Peace be upon you Natu,
Noooo! I was feeding off your energy! (
May peace always be upon you, and all throughout your being. Please make sure you come back.
Peace idolfree1
Pigs may develop jet engines but I'm not gonna leave free-minds GW. Don't worry, I'm not running away. Keep it up bro your doing fine, remember, the energy is within...
I have to make this my last post for a while now, or I will never overcome my addiction. Thanks for your suport and kind words. May peace be upon you.
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Salat = discussion is the solution that works perfectly in every verse, and it also explains as I have just demonstrated why salat is performed at times of Dawn and Dusk. All praise is due to God almighty.
I cannot make you see differently, but I humbly ask you to keep your mind open and continue the discussion.
Peace.
I have to take a break from free-minds for a period of time ( cry ), but I assure you that when I come back I will respond in full to whatever I can in this and other salat threads. I must accept that to an extent I have been making the same mistake I am totally against - fixation on one view without exploration. Right now God is making me busy elsewhere, so when he lets me back out here I'll return with a more open mind. Please don't think you can't make me see differently, your understanding does have strong points that I do personally strongly approve of. For now though I would like to thank everyone at free-minds for being there to help me develop myself over the past five months. If I have offended anyone or been a nuisance in anyway please accept my apologies. "I'll be back" as soon as possible by the God's will. arrow
Thanks for everything and may peace be upon you all.
ditto to you
best wishes
