Have we given this script too much credit-made an idol of it

ayman

Peace Anwar,

Wow, Ayman. I read your posts and I see how you try to make what i say inconsistent, how you refuse to understand what I am saying and how your tone is hostile and overly rejective.

I simply quoted what you said. If it comes across as inconsistent then don't blame me.

It seems that it doesn't matter how I say it you will refuse to acknowledge what I am saying.

Yes, I refuse to acknowledge that fractions are not to be counted.

I also refuse to acknowledge that a year has, has ever had, or will ever have 12 Anwar months/30 day periods. If you disagree then please do your homework and show me a single calendar in history that had constant 30 day periods.

Also, you are conveniently silent on what you are doing with the extra 5 days. Do you take a vacation ang go to Florida and pretend that they don't exist? )

Is that me saying that fractions are our inventions? Or is that me saying that our modern concept of math says 1 1/2 days when really there is only one day and a half of a day.

OK. If expressing it this way makes you feel better then there is 12 Anwar months and a sixth Anwar month in a year. There is NEVER just 12 Anwar months.

The fact that we express the half a day as a day is our way of expressing 1 day and a half a day. I never said the fractions were our inventions. If you can't see that then you should seriously question the way you are reading and understanding my posts. Maybe you should read them twice, carefully and without bias before you respond.

So why do you act as if pre-quranic Arabs didn't know about fractions and hence The God didn't count them?

If that is elemetary than why can't you acknowledge that there is really no such thing as 12 1/6 months, but really 12 months and a sixth of a month.

OK. As I said, if expressing it this way makes you feel better then there is 12 Anwar months and a sixth Anwar month in a year. There is NEVER just 12 Anwar months. So Anwar months cannot be what 936 is talking about. This is obvious.

The fraction is real, it is 1/6 and it is not a month and in a count of months it should not be included.

No it should be included as 1/6 of a month. If we apply your logic then fractions will never be included in any count of anything. roll

Again you are demonstrating how you don't understand what I am saying. I specifically said that saying 6 1/2 months is an EXPRESSION, like an IDIOM. It communicates a reality but that way that it is said does not reflect reality. If you don't get this I will understand, even though I will be dissapointed. It's like when you say when the 'stuff hits the fan' you don't literally mean that, it is an expression, that means 'when there is trouble.' Equally saying 6 1/2 months doesn't mean that there is actually a count of 6 1/2 months, it communicating a count of 6 months and a half a month. It is an EXPRESSION an IDIOM. Do you understand that? So you don't have to say it in a more literal way necessarily, just understand that it is an expression that is not literal.

By your standard all of mathematics is idioms. We don't really pile "months" on top of each other and add them up like we do with physical apples and oranges. If we use your same logic then adding months is an idiom exactly like adding a sixth of a month.

Not true. Because like I said what is said is 'the count of months . . ' And the count of months is 12 whether a half of a month comes after that or or it is 12 months exactly.

What is logically or gramatically not true with saying

"Indeed the count of "al-shuhur" at The God is twelve "shahr" and a sixth "shahr"..."

If like you we wrongly assume that "shahr" means "30 day period" then at least this is more true then your musings.

The statement is still true. I know you have an idea that the Koran has to map out every single thing and has to go beyond exactness, but the statement is still true.

So now stating the simple facts is "going beyond exactness". I must say that your standards for exactness are pretty dismal.

I am sure that The God has higher standards than what you believe.

The count of months is 12 even in 360 days. Count the months, count the 30 day periods in a period of 365 days and tell me how many there are.

There are 12 1/6 months. Or if you prefer 12 months and 1/6 month and that is a fact.

There are 12 30 day periods, 12 months. And 5 days left, which is a sixth of a month but can't be counted in 'the count of months' 'iddatusha-hr' because it is not a month.

Again, you are making the nonsensical argument that fractions are not supposed to be counted. This is of course ridiculous to say the least.

What are you doing with those 5 days? Of course you never say.

I have figured it out. The year does have a count 12 Anwar month. If you can count more than 12 30 day periods in a period of 365 days please inform me of your count. The 1/6 of a month is not a month so you can't count that in A COUNT OF MONTHS. Do you get it yet?

The count is 12 Anwar months and a sixth Anwar months because I know about fractions. If I know about fractions then The God certainly knows about them. It seems that you are the only one in the world who thinks that fractions are not to be counted.

Look at Chpt 53. It begins by mentioning 'the star.' The only star that is mentioned in the chapter is Sirius.

Firstly, some sources say that al-shaara is a mountain. Other sources say that it is Venus and not Sirius. Yet other evidence shows that it is the sun. So saying that it is Sirius is not sure to begin with.

Secondly, even assuming that shaara is Sirius this doesn't answer my question. You are evading it because you know that you don't have an answer.

Where does it say in the great reading that Ramadan starts with Sirius?

Where does it say that the year starts with Sirius?

That is the star that is meant in the beginning if one considers that the Koran doesn't follow all of the modern rules of literature but includes rules of literature that are NOW classified and used only in poetry. Whereas rules that separate poetry from other literature is a recent, modern phenomenon.

What rule did you use to read Chapter 53 and conclude that shaara is the start of the year? The words year or month don't even occur in Chapter 53.

I don't think that you can answer because I think that you made that up and you really have no rule that leads you to conclude that shaara denotes the start of the year or the start of ramadan.

Thank you for reminding me of that. I've experienced that personally. Have you had the same experience there? Maybe we can relate on some issues about the content of the lectures given by professors that we have both had there. You know, classes that we have shared. roll

My experience is on both sides of the fence, as a student long time ago and as a teacher more recently. As for Penn, I am sure it is a fine university and I personally have a close colleage who teaches there. I can say that what any good university teaches is critical thinking and focusing more on the "how" (the process) rather than the "what" (the story). If they teach you in any course that hearsay stories is evidence then I am afraid that you are not getting your money's worth for that course.

Hmmmm. Fuzzy feely?
Well, I think I demonstrated to you that implication of the Koran that a month is 30 days.

No you never did. You only demosntrated that you will ignore the obvious facts such as that fasting for three days is equivalent to feeding 10 poor (3.33 per day) in 589. Don't you wish that 589 said to feed 3 poor ). You are also ignoring the obvious fact that the year has 12 Anwar monhs and a sixth Anwar month.

And I'm sure that you can find this in Lane's lexicon as well.

I didn't see it in Lane. Nor did I see any Classical Arabic dicitionary claim that "month" means 30 day period. This is just more of your wishful thinking.

But the implication of the Koran is enough. The Koran is full of passages that can contradict if that is what the reader WANTS to read.

There is no contradiction. The contradictions are created by your faulty understanding.

But the consistency is there. You have two options and you choose to look at the possible inconsistency despite the fact that the consistency is offered to you.

I know that the consistency is there. No one was ever able to find any inconsistency in "shahr" meaning "full moon". Even you despite all your rambling never found any inconsistencies. The same cannot be said about "shahr" meaning your imaginary "30 days" month.

Peace,

Ayman

marie

Salam,

Just a remainder from the previous discussions on the meaning of the word shahr

As explained by brother Ayman in Hot/"ramadan" Answer the equivalence between arbaAAati ashhurin/four shahr traditionally translated by four "month" (2226) and three menstruation periods (222 is clear.
If four shahr means four periods, then we should read four menstruation periods in 228.
Three menstruation periods correponds exactly to four shahr

shahr1------------shahr2------------shahr3-----------shahr4
----------period 1--------period 2-----------period 3

It is logic and without ambiguity

Shahr ramadan in which the Reading was sent down ...(2185) and particularlly during the night of alqadr.
Shahr ramadan = the night of alqadr; a blessed night (443)
It is not a coincidence when the God compares the night of alqadr with one thousand shahr (973).
Thousand shahr are nothing but one thousand night.

The Night of Destiny is better than one thousand sahr.
Laylatu alqadri khayrun min alfi shahrin
O you who believe, let not a people ridicule other people, for they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock one another, or call each other names. Evil indeed is the reversion to wickedness after attaining faith. And anyone who does not repent, then these are the transgressors.
Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoola yaskhar qawmun min qawmin AAasa an yakoonoo khayran minhum wala nisaon min nisa-in AAasaan yakunna khayran minhunna wala talmizoo anfusakum walatanabazoo bial-alqabi bi/sa al-ismualfusooqu baAAda al-eemani waman lam yatub faola-ikahumu alththalimoona

The Reading explains itself

ayman

Peace sister Marie,

Thank you for your valuable insight.

Just a remainder from the previous discussions on the meaning of the word shahr

As explained by brother Ayman in Hot/"ramadan" Answer the equivalence between arbaAAati ashhurin/four shahr traditionally translated by four "month" (2226) and three menstruation periods (222 is clear.
If four shahr means four periods, then we should read four menstruation periods in 228.
Three menstruation periods correponds exactly to four shahr

shahr1------------shahr2------------shahr3-----------shahr4
----------period 1--------period 2-----------period 3

It is logic and without ambiguity )

I agree that it is logic and without ambiguity. However, it is in the way of counting not in the equivalence. 2226 prescribes a waiting period before divorce. 2228 prescribes a waiting period after the divorce. So they don't overlap and correspond to each other as the diagram shows. However, 2226 coveys to us logically and without ambiguity that the way we count "shahr" is like the way we count "mensturation". They are both cyclical events (not a continuous time period).

Shahr ramadan in which the Reading was sent down ...(2185) and particularlly during the night of alqadr.
Shahr ramadan = the night of alqadr; a blessed night (443)
It is not a coincidence when the God compares the night of alqadr with one thousand shahr (973).
Thousand shahr are nothing but one thousand night.

The Night of Destiny is better than one thousand sahr.
Laylatu alqadri khayrun min alfi shahrin
O you who believe, let not a people ridicule other people, for they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock one another, or call each other names. Evil indeed is the reversion to wickedness after attaining faith. And anyone who does not repent, then these are the transgressors.
Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoola yaskhar qawmun min qawmin AAasa an yakoonoo khayran minhum wala nisaon min nisa-in AAasaan yakunna khayran minhunna wala talmizoo anfusakum walatanabazoo bial-alqabi bi/sa al-ismualfusooqu baAAda al-eemani waman lam yatub faola-ikahumu alththalimoona

The Reading explains itself )

This is brilliant sister. Thank you for sharing this additional evidence and logical explanation. I look forward for us to witness the scorching full-moon/night of measure, which is only a few weeks away from now. )

Paix and all best wishes,

Ayman

marie

Peace brother Ayman

2226 prescribes a waiting period before divorce. 2228 prescribes a waiting period after the divorce.

You are right.
Is it a coincidence that we are command to wait four full moon and three menstruation periods before and after the divorce respectively?

Ideed two full moons don't overlap one menstruation period, in my last postI spoke about the equivalence only because during three menstruation periods, one can observe four full moon.

I look forward for us to witness the scorching full-moon/night of measure, which is only a few weeks away from now. )

I'm waiting too to observe it Inchallah )

PS
This is a confidence Since my childhood until 3 years ago I always speak about the shahr when the moon is full in the sky. When I discover the genuine islam, I changed my mind ? about this after a discussion with a freind of mine.
Now, praise to the God, my first understanding seems logic )

Paix

marie

Peace all,

Another detail which can bring some idea

After witnessing the full moon, it withdraws itself progressively from the the sun light and the moon becomes like an old curved sheath (3639), in other word the moon is in darkness.
In the same way for the daylight regarding the night..

So when the restricted full moons are withdrawn, then you may kill those who have set up partners wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and hold the contact-method, and contribute towards betterment, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
Fa-itha insalakha al-ashhuru alhurumufaoqtuloo almushrikeena haythu wajadtumoohum wakhuthoohumwaohsuroohum waoqAAudoo lahum kulla marsadinfa-in taboo waaqamoo alssalatawaatawoo alzzakata fakhalloo sabeelahum innaAllaha ghafoorun raheemun
And a Sign for them is the night. We withdraw from it the day, and behold, they are in darkness.
Waayatun lahumu allaylu naslakhu minhu alnnahara fa-itha hum muthlimoona

yfn123

Greetings with peace,

Hmm... How are the full moons restricted? (And also restricted full moons imply that there are unrestricted full moons. What to make of this?)

Anwar Azim

Peace all,
95. So when the restricted full moons are withdrawn, then you may kill those who have set up partners wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and hold the contact-method, and contribute towards betterment, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
Fa-itha insalakha al-ashhuru alhurumufaoqtuloo almushrikeena haythu wajadtumoohum wakhuthoohumwaohsuroohum waoqAAudoo lahum kulla marsadinfa-in taboo waaqamoo alssalatawaatawoo alzzakata fakhalloo sabeelahum innaAllaha ghafoorun raheemun

marie

Salam Anwar Azim,

Hmm... How are the full moons restricted? (And also restricted full moons imply that there are unrestricted full moons. What to make of this?)

I'm not sure if I get what you mean but 936 can answer your question

The count of the full moons with God is twelve fullmoon in God?s record the day He created the heavens and the Earth; four of them are restricted. This is the correct system; so do not wrong yourselves in them; and fight those who set up partners collectively as they fight you collectively. And know that God is with the righteous.

A. Shabir
936 Allah has ordained twelve months in one year. This has been Allah?s Ordinance since the day He created the heavens and the earth. Four of these Months are Sacred, forbidden for all warfare. (Mankind, through international treaties, must agree to shun all kind of warfare during these four months. This will give them a cooling off period that sense may prevail over emotions). This is the Firm Religion, the right way. So, do not wrong yourselves by fighting during the Sacred Months. However, you may fight the idolaters in any or all these months if they fight against you in any or all of them (2194). And know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves. (Four Sacred Months (2194), (91-5)).

I understand that there is four restricted full moons and the other full moon there is no restriction about the warfare and the land hunt, IMO.

The God knows best

ayman

Peace sister Marie,

Another detail which can bring some idea

After witnessing the full moon, it withdraws itself progressively from the the sun light and the moon becomes like an old curved sheath (3639), in other word the moon is in darkness.
In the same way for the daylight regarding the night..

So when the restricted full moons are withdrawn, then you may kill those who have set up partners wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and hold the contact-method, and contribute towards betterment, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
Fa-itha insalakha al-ashhuru alhurumufaoqtuloo almushrikeena haythu wajadtumoohum wakhuthoohumwaohsuroohum waoqAAudoo lahum kulla marsadinfa-in taboo waaqamoo alssalatawaatawoo alzzakata fakhalloo sabeelahum innaAllaha ghafoorun raheemun
And a Sign for them is the night. We withdraw from it the day, and behold, they are in darkness.
Waayatun lahumu allaylu naslakhu minhu alnnahara fa-itha hum muthlimoona

This is great. Thank you for sharing this excellent observation.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman

Wakas

peace sister Marie,

Nice observation. It just goes to show how much cross-referencing is still needing done. I find this method most fruitful.

Wakas

yfn123

Peace Marie,

Thanks for your kind response. I think I got the sense.

Now, other questions pop up. By fullmoon, I suppose a period of time is implied, as can be sensed in "so do not wrong yourselves in them" (the key phrase is "in them"). How long is that precisely? And what about the period between one fullmoon to another? Is that restricted too?

Anwar Azim

Salam Anwar Azim,

Hmm... How are the full moons restricted? (And also restricted full moons imply that there are unrestricted full moons. What to make of this?)

I'm not sure if I get what you mean but 936 can answer your question

The count of the full moons with God is twelve fullmoon in God?s record the day He created the heavens and the Earth; four of them are restricted. This is the correct system; so do not wrong yourselves in them; and fight those who set up partners collectively as they fight you collectively. And know that God is with the righteous.

A. Shabir
936 Allah has ordained twelve months in one year. This has been Allah?s Ordinance since the day He created the heavens and the earth. Four of these Months are Sacred, forbidden for all warfare. (Mankind, through international treaties, must agree to shun all kind of warfare during these four months. This will give them a cooling off period that sense may prevail over emotions). This is the Firm Religion, the right way. So, do not wrong yourselves by fighting during the Sacred Months. However, you may fight the idolaters in any or all these months if they fight against you in any or all of them (2194). And know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves. (Four Sacred Months (2194), (91-5)).

I understand that there is four restricted full moons and the other full moon there is no restriction about the warfare and the land hunt, IMO.

The God knows best

ayman

Peace Anwar,

Now, other questions pop up. By fullmoon, I suppose a period of time is implied, as can be sensed in "so do not wrong yourselves in them" (the key phrase is "in them"). How long is that precisely? And what about the period between one fullmoon to another? Is that restricted too?

I think that the way mensturations and full-moons are counted is the same.

In 2228, divorced women are to wait for 3 menturations (they are "restricted" from marriage during that period). Each mensturation is going to last for a certain number of days that is a little different from one woman to another. Also the time between mensturations is going to be different from one woman to another. Let's take an example. Suppose a divorced woman's mensturation lasts for 5 days and it comes every 28 days. Does this mean that the divorced woman is only restricted to marry during the 5 days when she is having her mensturation or is she also restricted between mensturations until the count of three mensturations passes? Of course she is restricted from marriage the period of mensuration and the period between one mensturation to another. Now replace mensturation with full-moon and you will get the answer to your question.

I hope this helps.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman

yfn123

Peace Ayman.

I got it and thanks.

Anwar Azim

marie

Salam,

And for Solomon the wind was given, traveling one month coming and one month going, and We caused a spring of tar to flow for him. And from among the Jinn are those that worked for him by his Lord's leave; and any one of them who turns from Our commands, We shall cause him to taste the retribution of the Fire.
Walisulaymana alrreeha ghuduwwuha shahrun warawahuha shahrun waasalna lahu AAayna alqitri wamina aljinni manyaAAmalu bayna yadayhi bi-ithni rabbihi waman yazighminhum AAan amrina nuthiqhu min AAathabi alssaAAeeri

"ghuduw" can also mean morning (7205)
I think that "ghuduwwuha" in 3412 means its morning course.
"rawah" occurs after "ghuduw"; one can travel in the morning and comes bak in the evening or in the night (rawah), then we can translate "rawahuha" as its evening/night course.

"And for Solomon the wind was given, its morning course in a full moon and its evening/night course in a full moon"

It seems coherent regarding the meaning of the word shahr , what do you think?

Idris

peace be upon you ayman,

in your article you said that debate/conference occurs four times in the period of four full moons, the ten days from the full moon to the crecent moon, does this include the full moon of ramadan? as you know in the debate/conference we are allowed and even told eat from the livestock that God provided us and we are to be abstaining in the full moon of ramadan

And call out to mankind with the debate, they will come to you walking and on every transport, they will come from every deep enclosure.
So that they may witness benefits for themselves and recall The God?s description in the appointed days over what He has provided for them of the animal livestock. So eat from it and feed the needy and the poor.Then let them complete their duties and fulfill their vows, and let them partake at the ancient house.
Thus, and whosoever honours The God?s restrictions, then it is better for him with His Lord. And the livestock is made lawful for you except what is recited upon you. So avoid the foulness of idols and avoid saying false statements. (2227-30)

ayman

Peace Idris

in your article you said that debate/conference occurs four times in the period of four full moons, the ten days from the full moon to the crecent moon, does this include the full moon of ramadan? as you know in the debate/conference we are allowed and even told eat from the livestock that God provided us and we are to be abstaining in the full moon of ramadan

And call out to mankind with the debate, they will come to you walking and on every transport, they will come from every deep enclosure.
So that they may witness benefits for themselves and recall The God?s description in the appointed days over what He has provided for them of the animal livestock. So eat from it and feed the needy and the poor.Then let them complete their duties and fulfill their vows, and let them partake at the ancient house.
Thus, and whosoever honours The God?s restrictions, then it is better for him with His Lord. And the livestock is made lawful for you except what is recited upon you. So avoid the foulness of idols and avoid saying false statements. (2227-30)

I am not sure about the answer but I think that we hear in 2197 that the debate takes place at known full-moons that WHOMEVER (ie people) has prescribed the debate in. So perhaps the debate can be prescribed in three out of the four restricted full-moons or at any time of the year. The only function of the restricted full-moons is the limitation on hunting. As far as I know, there is nothing that links them to the debate.

Perhaps we will find a better answer through more learning and debate.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman

ayman

Peace Idris,

After pondering on your question some more, I think that we need to consider the purpose of 7ajj/debate. Here is something that I had posted on another thread that I think might help

My understanding is that "7ajj" is a gathering like the annual fair. People come from all over to trade, get benefits, meet other people, and be reminded of The God's favors. We are told in 2227 that Ibrahim invited people "WITH/BI al-7ajj" and not "TO/ILA al-7ajj" to witness benefits. You can only invite ALL people with something beneficial and non-descriminatory. We are told in 2827 that Moses was hired to work for 8 "7ijaj". What was hired to do? Clearly, he was hired to work and tend for sheep (2823-24) and NOT for any religious pilgrimage. What does working and tending sheep has to do with "7ajj"? Naturally, people work and produce so that they can BARGAIN with their products. Bargaining is a kind of debate and it results in witnessing benefits by the seller and the buyer. Thus, "al-7ajj"/the debate is like the annual fair where people work all year and then go to sell and/or buy products. Mid summer - early fall is the natural time for such markets because produce and livestock are plentiful. The large gathering of "7ajj" provides a good opportunity to remind as many people as possible of The God. It is also an opportunity for the advantaged to donate and provide for the disadvantaged.

When one keeps in mind the purpose of the debate, one can see that the time where in general produce and livestock are plentiful is the best time for the debate. The burning/red full-moon takes place between June 21-July 20 or so. The natural time to harvest most crops takes place from mid-July to about mid-October.

On another thread, brother Beatnik mentioned the harvest moon, which occurs after the autumn equinox. This moon is called so because its light gives farmers extra time to work and harvest their crops before the end of the season. At this stage, I think that out of the four restricted full-moons, the first full-moon (the burning/red full-moon) is for abstinence, while the remaining three are for the debate.

I hope this helps.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman

Idris

peace upon you ayman,

Peace Idris,

After pondering on your question some more, I think that we need to consider the purpose of 7ajj/debate. Here is something that I had posted on another thread that I think might help

My understanding is that "7ajj" is a gathering like the annual fair. People come from all over to trade, get benefits, meet other people, and be reminded of The God's favors. We are told in 2227 that Ibrahim invited people "WITH/BI al-7ajj" and not "TO/ILA al-7ajj" to witness benefits. You can only invite ALL people with something beneficial and non-descriminatory. We are told in 2827 that Moses was hired to work for 8 "7ijaj". What was hired to do? Clearly, he was hired to work and tend for sheep (2823-24) and NOT for any religious pilgrimage. What does working and tending sheep has to do with "7ajj"? Naturally, people work and produce so that they can BARGAIN with their products. Bargaining is a kind of debate and it results in witnessing benefits by the seller and the buyer. Thus, "al-7ajj"/the debate is like the annual fair where people work all year and then go to sell and/or buy products. Mid summer - early fall is the natural time for such markets because produce and livestock are plentiful. The large gathering of "7ajj" provides a good opportunity to remind as many people as possible of The God. It is also an opportunity for the advantaged to donate and provide for the disadvantaged.

When one keeps in mind the purpose of the debate, one can see that the time where in general produce and livestock are plentiful is the best time for the debate. The burning/red full-moon takes place between June 21-July 20 or so. The natural time to harvest most crops takes place from mid-July to about mid-October.

On another thread, brother Beatnik mentioned the harvest moon, which occurs after the autumn equinox. This moon is called so because its light gives farmers extra time to work and harvest their crops before the end of the season. At this stage, I think that out of the four restricted full-moons, the first full-moon (the burning/red full-moon) is for abstinence, while the remaining three are for the debate.

I hope this helps.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman

good explanation, I'll be abstaining this summer solstice except if The God wills, I find it interesting that the three months of harvest occur directly after the full moon of the summer solstice, which is ramadan