Isn't the Bible better...
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Any Christians also don't like this argument
"Since God created everything then all books are God's books to begin with."Given with those statement they cannot put the "Holy Book" up on the pedestal, and be SUPERIOR compared to other books. #idolatry
Observe the repeating pattern and take the lesson for yourself.
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Any Christians also don't like this argument
"Since God created everything then all books are God's books to begin with."Given with those statement they cannot put the "Holy Book" up on the pedestal, and be SUPERIOR compared to other books. #idolatry
Observe the repeating pattern and take the lesson for yourself.
I have no clue in which world you are lost... No sense at all it makes for me what you say..
"All books are from god" .. Commendable if you have verified your statement... At least speak like Jay Smith... He spoke with intent and to justify his claim he touched the nose round his head... But whatever he spoke mostly have meaning... That's why I raised the question isn't the Bible better than hadith books of Bukhari and so on.. Well.. Suddenly without any evidence he dumped his beautiful speech into nonsense by saying quran is from Mohamed and main purpose is to attack christians.. There he didn't bring constructive conclusions..Anyway bro Jafer.. Why do you say that all books are from god... It seems you take the support since all things are created by god, so all books are from god.... So... How do you know that god created everything? Does all book say so?
All Books mean all... How do you know god did say in the first place to claim that all books are from god?I love constructive argument .. I take what gives sense and leave what gives nonsense even from same person..
So bring some parity in your statements..Well.. Since I accept Quran is from God, it says the Quran is from God and author claims meanwhile not all books from God.. Do you need references or you are familiar with it..
Well.. Just to reflect.. God says "These are the verses of God and not a fabricated hadith.. "So the author of Quran ie The God doesn't accept that all books are from Him... So why you are stubborn to claim that all from God..?
Anyway your ways for you... I have lot to research for my understanding and my guidance.. So.. Though willing to debate but no time to waste... Coz I somehow realized only debate those who follow God's book alone. That's worthy spending precious time with..
I hope all book guide you and you can resort to a conclusion based on all books and be successful in this life and hereafter if you believe in it.. Good luck on that..
Take care dude... Guidance from God is an amazing thing that derives a person far from others.. Only guided ones feel that.. I hope all guided people can sense it...
Thank you..Note... Bible at least part of it were written by some eyewitness but Bukhari is neither either eyewitness nor part of that community... So in fact bible is better than bukhari sahih
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It is debateable whether The Bible has first-hand eyewitness accounts. Perhaps one could argue it does here and there. The main criticisms to the accounts are that the authors are unknown, written by those who came later i.e. not actually Matthew/Mark/Luke/John etc, the lack of original source documents, lack of extant dated manuscripts, contradictions in them.
The Traditional Islamic argument often cites the lack of isnad (chain of narrators) for Bible reports. Unfortunately for Traditionalists most do not seem to appreciate that even isnad is no guarantee of authenticity/accuracy. The "science of hadith" is simply a method of reducing errors, i.e. that is the best methodology they could come up with when faced with an ocean of forgeries. -
It is debateable whether The Bible has first-hand eyewitness accounts.
Matthew is the only people who meet and saw Jesus and wrote his experience / perception on a scroll.
He was a tax collector, well educated and have ample money to bought writing materials (scrolls).Illiteracy was rampant during Jesus time, only selected few (less than 10%) could read and the materials to write (goat skin) was also very expensive. Thus the 'effectiveness' of writing on a scroll is also questionable, given the mass audience are mostly illiterate, this also the reason why Jesus (or his cousin John) did not write anything on any material.
Having said that one should then ponder why Jesus (or John or even Muhammad) did not wrote anything by himself?
Here's an answer
God's guidance is always available at all time to everyone through myriad of channels.
"Seek and you shall find, ask and you shall receive", that's what he said.
But one need to seek to find and ask to receive.On contrary; religion always tried their best to hide the above facts.
By claiming that 'guidance' only available through them or through their approved artifacts, such as 'compiled book'.
And that's what initiate a political conflict between Jesus and religion, resulted in his death penalty by religious authority.Few centuries after Jesus years, few people turned his teaching into yet a another new religion and named it Catholicismus (Latin Universal)
As mentioned, observe the repeating pattern, which is still repeating up until today and take a lesson.
God's guidance never stop, occurring up until today, available to everyone who seek and ask, and will be delivered through myriad of channels. Ask and you shall receive, seek and you shall find.
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It is indeed an interesting question to ponder why Jesus or Muhammad did not write anything themselves or under their supervision. While it is true that illiteracy was widespread during the time of Jesus, it is also worth noting that writing was not the only means of communication at that time. Oral tradition was a common method of passing down stories and teachings, and many scholars believe that the sayings of Jesus were initially transmitted orally before being written down.
Religious authorities of the time had a vested interest in controlling access to religious knowledge and guidance and regardless of things being written, it is clear that their (Jesus and Mohammad) messages have had a profound impact on the world and continue to inspire people to this day. And while religious institutions have sometimes been accused of monopolizing access to guidance and knowledge, it is important to remember that people of all faiths and backgrounds have the ability to seek and find guidance in their own ways.
Religious texts have been used to justify and reinforce systems of power and control, often at the expense of marginalized groups. However, it is worth noting that not all interpretations of religious texts support oppressive systems, and many individuals and communities have used these texts to promote social justice and equality.
The interpretation and application of religious texts, including the Quran, are influenced by various factors such as cultural and historical contexts, as well as individual beliefs and values. This is evident in the numerous Tafaseer of Quranic verses that consider Hadiths and other historical events.
While some individuals, such as Jkhan and others on this forum, choose to interpret the Quran based solely on their intellect (commendable act), others may incorporate historical events and Hadiths to shape their understanding of the Quran. For example, individuals who visit Makkah for Umra or tawaf may consider the historical accounts and Hadiths related to the establishment of the Kaaba by Ismail and his father in present day KSA.Moreover, the Quran encourages individuals to explore the world and learn from the experiences of previous civilizations, which may require relying on historical accounts to understand the significance of certain places or events or their coordinates as such.
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Give me a list then, which are created by God and which are NOT created by God.
378 And verily, among them is a party who distort the Book with their tongues, so that you may think it is from the Book, but it is not from the Book, and they say "This is from Allah," but it is not from Allah; and they speak a lie against Allah while they know it.
1113 Or, do they say He has forged it. Say Then bring ten forged chapters like it and call upon whom you can besides Allah, if you are truthful.
1788 Say "If the mankind and the jinns were together to produce the like of this Quran, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they helped one another."
279 So woe to those who write the "book" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.
Well.. Any ordinary person who reads these verses of Quran would manifestly understand that everything what we read in books is not from God but unfortunately Jafer cannot comprehend it for whatever inconspicuous agenda in his heart..
God is just and never would claim for what human created... Of course for human to create it requires resources... So human beings use existing resources which God created to create out of them human invention...
For example.. A pagan god's statue which they worship.. This idol human created.. But in your eyes everything is created by God.. Even the Idol they carved is created by the God... Let me put that in a crystal clear manner within quran... One of Musa's people, Saamiri created a calf as an idol... Do you want to say God created what Saamiri created? Well... Your knowledge is falling apart down the hills at a rapid pace.. Before your brain drains off try to charge it up.. Nonsensical...
There is Nature and artificial... You are mocking at Archealogical evidences or you are directly spiting on their faces by claiming that everything was created by God... How archealogists come to conclusions in a nutshell... Yes.. They identify nature and they identify human touch at the same time... Nature which is transformed into another creature is human invention and it is not God's creation .. It is shame that I had to explain the rudimentary methodology in this respect...
Lol... Yes clock is ticking ...though time God created, clock was invented by man...How hilarious it is to request to list out what God created and what human created.. This is the funniest thing I ever heard.. Do you think, I am a teacher and you are a obedient student asking explanation and I am bound to respond in a way student wants.. I will make it easy.. Bring every day 10 items and I will let you know which of those created by God and as a student you find out the balance.. Isn't that cool...?
God says.. They are just names they and their ancestors named ... So.. God didn't name these idols' names.. But human..
Don't question at others like a frog in the well... Come out of the box and speak with logic... Logic and truth makes sense to any human being though they hate truth...
Were Shakespeare's books authored by God? you are super funny... No.. You are Hyper fruitcake...
Yes.. You won by wasting my time.. Well. That's it.. When you speak logic and truth, in sha Allah I reply next time... Until then... Write what you want to write and claim it is from God... -
It is indeed an interesting question to ponder why Jesus or Muhammad did not write anything themselves or under their supervision. While it is true that illiteracy was widespread during the time of Jesus, it is also worth noting that writing was not the only means of communication at that time. Oral tradition was a common method of passing down stories and teachings, and many scholars believe that the sayings of Jesus were initially transmitted orally before being written down.
Religious authorities of the time had a vested interest in controlling access to religious knowledge and guidance and regardless of things being written, it is clear that their (Jesus and Mohammad) messages have had a profound impact on the world and continue to inspire people to this day. And while religious institutions have sometimes been accused of monopolizing access to guidance and knowledge, it is important to remember that people of all faiths and backgrounds have the ability to seek and find guidance in their own ways.
Religious texts have been used to justify and reinforce systems of power and control, often at the expense of marginalized groups. However, it is worth noting that not all interpretations of religious texts support oppressive systems, and many individuals and communities have used these texts to promote social justice and equality.
The interpretation and application of religious texts, including the Quran, are influenced by various factors such as cultural and historical contexts, as well as individual beliefs and values. This is evident in the numerous Tafaseer of Quranic verses that consider Hadiths and other historical events.
While some individuals, such as Jkhan and others on this forum, choose to interpret the Quran based solely on their intellect (commendable act), others may incorporate historical events and Hadiths to shape their understanding of the Quran. For example, individuals who visit Makkah for Umra or tawaf may consider the historical accounts and Hadiths related to the establishment of the Kaaba by Ismail and his father in present day KSA.Moreover, the Quran encourages individuals to explore the world and learn from the experiences of previous civilizations, which may require relying on historical accounts to understand the significance of certain places or events or their coordinates as such.
255 And they say "Tales of the ancients, which he has written down, and they are dictated to him morning and afternoon."
2948 And you did not recite before it(Quran) any book, nor did you transcribe one with your right hand, for then could those who say untrue things have doubted.
Well two point you highlighted..
Very strange those who claim that Mohamed didn't write what was revealed to him... The above verses without any hint of doubt proves that Quran was written while still many chapters to be revealed abd it was written by none other but Mohamed, the Prophet ..if anyone has any argument on that most welcome... I am not tired on that...
Your second point historical evidence etc... Pls don't judge me with your brainwashed mind... Do you think I don't accept true historical facts? Do you think I don't look at nature.. Do you think I don't look at how human body is created...?
You are so frustrated in your lost path.. You know brother how would I ever disregard Mecca as original place of Masjid AL haram is I have not considered historical values... Well based on historical facts coupled with what Quran presents only I have realized that Makka has nothing to do with Quranic masjid AL Haram or even the first house built by Ibrahim... So is this the way you are trying to convince that we should follow hadith since they are historical evidence... Lol.. They are not historical evidence but mere fabrications and fancy statements of history... Just get out of the shackle you are in if you want.. But you love fancy statements and you are possesed with them..True history and nonsense are extremely two different things...
Do you think when God says... Don't you look at sky how it is built... Do you think I would say... No I don't want to look at sky.. I follow Quran alone.. ...
You hadith followers are like... When husband comes home belly full with restaurant foods and how come he will eat the food prepared by poor wife.. Even how tasty the food of wife he won't be able to eat or even look at it... Yes... Your mind is full with hadith and no place for quran... hadith taste far better for you and you are satisfied and no more space for quran... Just formalities...
Well... Why would Allah guide those who don't want guidance at all....
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Hello friends.
Peace all.
Here is the problem I see in past, present and future generations. RASOOL.
Qoran has a deeper and different meaning for this word than we perceive , but with an unchangeable basic of "anyone who delivers a special and specific message,unique and ever lasting for all the generations after it from the all knowledgeable everlasting supreme creator of those receiving it and creator of everything else that exist"".
Now these "RASOOLS",are delivering an open message that they check themselves ,they are allowed to read, study and ponder its contents- it is a message for them as well- to share with those they live with in their generation.
so, in essence this "RASOOL" is not like the regular postman, who delivers sealed envelopes- not allowed to open and look at their contents mostly-
But this special "RASOOL" is not allowed to temper with any letter ,word or verse of this special message, nor give his version of it.The letters, words and verses and arrangement of them are sealed by the sender.Why?
Because the true and everlasting "RASOOL" is the message itself for all the generations. The human "RASOOL" can only be to his own generation .
This special message is actually open and sealed. Open for those receiving it and accepting its contents and sealed for those rejecting it.This message cannot be changed by anyone nor explained by other than its sender.
It becomes clear to those receiving this message and accepting it. that the words sent are complete and sufficient . GOD s words cannot be equal or less value than men s words nor can men s words ever be needed for GOD s message that was sent sealed and delivered.In other words ,we can compare men s words ,they are not the message of GOD nor can they ever replace it. But we can never compare GOD s words.
If one wants to follow hadiths or other men s versions of GOD s words they are simply going to be irrelevant for salvation. They can never be the true message.
GOD s words v men s words is the ultimate question.
GOD bless you all.
Peace. -
Thank you Brother Jkhan, for taking the time to read my post and share your thoughts. I appreciate your passion for the Quran and your desire to follow it alone. However, I respectfully disagree with some of the points you made in your response.
Regarding the first point you raised about the verses 255 and 2948, I understand that you interpret them as evidence that the Prophet Muhammad wrote the Quran himself. However, it is important to note that there are other valid interpretations of these verses. Some scholars believe that 255 is referring to the claims of the disbelievers who accused the Prophet of reciting "tales of the ancients" rather than the Quran, and that 2948 is emphasizing the miraculous nature of the Quran's revelation and the fact that it was not written by human hands. Therefore, while I respect your interpretation, I believe that it is not the only possible one.
Regarding the use of historical evidence and hadith, I want to clarify that I did not argue that hadith should be blindly followed as historical evidence. Rather, my point was that the interpretation and application of religious texts, including the Quran, can be influenced by various factors, including historical context and individual beliefs. While it is important to consider authentic hadith in order to understand the context and meaning of certain Quranic verses, we should also be critical of hadith that do not align with the Quran or with established historical facts.
I understand that you may have your own reasons for rejecting certain hadith, and I respect your right to do so. However, I would encourage you to approach these issues with an open mind and a willingness to engage in respectful dialogue with those who may have different perspectives. After all, as you pointed out, Allah does not guide those who do not want guidance, but He does encourage us to seek knowledge and understanding in all aspects of our lives.
Finally, I want to emphasize that my post was not to criticize or belittle anyone's beliefs. Rather, I wanted to explore some of the complex issues surrounding the interpretation and application of religious texts, and to encourage readers to think critically about these issues. I hope that my response has been respectful and informative.
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Dear GL,
Thank you for sharing your perspective on the concept of "Rasool" and the message of the Quran. It is interesting to consider the idea that the message delivered by a "Rasool" is not just a message from the messenger, but rather a message from the Supreme Creator that is intended to be everlasting and for all generations.I agree that it is important to understand the true message of the Quran and not rely solely on the interpretations or versions of men. It is also important to recognize that the Quran is a complete and sufficient guide for all aspects of life, and that we should strive to follow its teachings in our daily lives.
However, it is also worth noting that the Quran encourages critical thinking and reflection, and that individuals are encouraged to seek knowledge and understanding through their own efforts. While it is important to respect the sanctity of the Quran and its message, it is also important to recognize that interpretation and understanding can vary from person to person, and that we should approach the Quran with humility and an open mind.
Ultimately, the message of the Quran is one of peace, love, and compassion, and it is through our actions and interactions with others that we can truly live out the teachings of this sacred text.
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Peace Fusion.
Thank you for your reply.
Qoran is tailor made for critical thinking. . There is nothing wrong in comparing understandings of others but we should use our eyes ,ears and brain to check and arrive at our own findings. This is the most important advice in Qoran.
Each individual is responsible for the use of their own. faculties,
Qoran also instruct each individual to study, reflect and seek GOD s help to understand GOD s words.
GOD CLEARLY DOES NOT WANT US TO FOLLOW OUR FOREFATHERS,SCHOLARS OR ANY HUMAN BLINDLY.Why do we need hadiths, or any other men s words for GOD s religion if GOD has sent us His own words and said that He would help us understand them?
Or are we just giving the words of GOD lip service? Well ,here is a reminder
" When you preach/remind about your Lord using Qoran Alone-GOD s words- they run away in aversion"!!!May be we do not really believe GOD. Are His words not enough for us? Is GOD not sufficient for His servants?
Funny how we are always inclined towards some creation of GOD/humans to help us ? Is this not shirk?
Or is their argument better than GOD s argument and clear instructions in His own words?
Still we have the choice. We are very argumentative creatures and we are always ready for justification with our own excuses .
So each to their own argument then!
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
ignoreHello GL,
Thank you for your thoughtful response. I appreciate your emphasis on critical thinking and personal responsibility in understanding the Quran.
While I agree that we should not blindly follow the interpretations of others, I also believe that there is value in seeking knowledge and guidance from scholars who have studied the Quran and its context extensively. They can provide insights and perspectives that may not be immediately apparent to individual readers.
Regarding the hadiths and other men's words, while they may not carry the same weight as the Quran, they can still provide valuable context and understanding of the historical and cultural context in which the Quran was revealed. It is up to each individual to weigh the evidence and make their own informed decisions about how to interpret and apply the teachings of Islam.Examples[In support of your statement where Quran tells not to follow forefathers, scholars Blindly....
2170
When it is said to them, “Follow what Allah has revealed,” they reply, “No! We ˹only˺ follow what we found our forefathers practicing.” ˹Would they still do so,˺ even if their forefathers had ˹absolutely˺ no understanding or guidance?(5104) When they are asked 'Come to what Allah has revealed, and come to the Messenger', they reply 'The way of our refathers suffices us.' (Will they continue to follow their forefathers) even though their forefathers might have known nothing, and might have been on the wrong way?
And then this verse
(2133) Why, were you witnesses when death came to Jacob? He asked his children “Whom will you serve after me?” They said “We shall serve your God, the God of your forefathers, Abraham, Ishmael and Isaac, the One God, and unto Him do we submit.”Please understand that verse of Quran need some times the context, hence the Qur'an is not against following one's forefathers. The Qur'an encourages critical thinking and individual responsibility when it comes to matters of faith.
In verse 2170, the Qur'an is criticizing those who blindly follow the traditions of their forefathers without questioning or examining them. This is because such traditions may be based on ignorance or falsehoods, and following them without questioning can lead to errors and misguided beliefs.
In verse 5104, the Qur'an is pointing out the fact that many people, even when presented with clear guidance from God, still choose to follow the traditions of their forefathers out of stubbornness or a sense of loyalty. This is a warning against the dangers of blindly following tradition and ignoring God's guidance.
In verse 2133, the Prophet is asking his own children to follow in his footsteps, not necessarily to blindly follow their forefathers. This is because the Prophet was a messenger of God and his teachings were based on divine guidance. The Prophet's children were aware of his character and conduct, and thus were inclined to follow his example.
So, in essence, the Qur'an is not against following one's forefathers per se, but rather it encourages critical thinking and examination of beliefs, even if they are traditions that have been passed down from one's forefathers. The Prophet's children were not blindly following their forefathers, but rather they were following the example of a messenger of God who was known for his righteousness and adherence to divine guidance.
Ultimately, I believe that the Quran is the ultimate source of guidance for Muslims, and that we should strive to follow its teachings to the best of our abilities. May God guide us all in our search for truth and understanding.
Peace to you as well.
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Peace Fusion.
What did the messenger follow? Remember he had no hadiths, they were invented /came about after him.
The messenger followed Qoran and applied GOD s message in his life .So how are those following hadiths following the messenger? On the contrary they are not following the messenger.
The only way to follow the messenger is to follow the message /Qoran like he did.
Or what reasoning are you using brother?
Sorry I am failing to understand what you are saying to me?
If you are also failing to understand what I am saying to you, then we might as well leave it at that.Or may be the messenger has left you both the Qoran and hadiths.
For me ,he left only Qoran.
GOD bless you.
Peace.. -
I appreciate your perspective on following the Quran alone and I understand that you believe that following the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) means following the Quran only. However, I respectfully disagree with your interpretation.
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was the messenger of Allah and he not only recited the Quran but also explained and applied its teachings in his life. His companions closely observed his actions and teachings, and they narrated and preserved them through hadiths. These hadiths provide us with valuable insights into the application of the Quranic teachings in various situations.
It is important to note that not all hadiths are authentic and some may be weak or fabricated. Therefore, it is essential to approach them critically and verify their authenticity before accepting them. However, this does not mean that all hadiths are unreliable and should be rejected altogether.
In verse 331, the Quran instructs believers to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and his sunnah (traditions or way of life). The sunnah includes the Prophet's actions, sayings, and approvals. Hadiths are a valuable source to understand the Prophet's sunnah and apply it in our lives.
Therefore, following the Quran and the Prophet's sunnah, as recorded in the authentic hadiths, is the best way to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). It is not about blindly following forefathers or scholars, but about following the authentic teachings of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and applying them in our lives.
May Allah guide us all to the straight path.
Peace be upon you too.
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Peace Fusion.
You can disagree with me ,it is your choice,but you cannot make Qoran say what it does not say.
like hereQuote"In verse 331, the Quran instructs believers to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and his sunnah (traditions or way of life). The sunnah includes the Prophet's actions, sayings, and approvals. Hadiths are a valuable source to understand the Prophet's sunnah and apply it in our lives.
Therefore, following the Quran and the Prophet's sunnah, as recorded in the authentic hadiths, is the best way to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). It is not about blindly following forefathers or scholars, but about following the authentic teachings of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and applying them in our lives."
Read 331 again, this time ponder each word,start from 330 (You can ignore the translation,the Arabic version is provided)
"The day will come when each soul will find all the good works it had done brought forth. As for the evil works, it will wish that they were far, far removed. God alerts you that you shall reverence Him alone. God is Compassionate towards the people.
يَومَ تَجِدُ كُلُّ نَفسٍ ما عَمِلَت مِن خَيرٍ مُحضَرًا وَما عَمِلَت مِن سوءٍ تَوَدُّ لَو أَنَّ بَينَها وَبَينَهُ أَمَدًا بَعيدًا وَيُحَذِّرُكُمُ اللَّهُ نَفسَهُ وَاللَّهُ رَءوفٌ بِالعِبادِProclaim "If you love God, you should follow me." God will then love you, and forgive your sins. God is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
قُل إِن كُنتُم تُحِبّونَ اللَّهَ فَاتَّبِعونى يُحبِبكُمُ اللَّهُ وَيَغفِر لَكُم ذُنوبَكُم وَاللَّهُ غَفورٌ رَحيمٌProclaim "You shall obey God and the messenger." If they turn away, God does not love the disbelievers.
قُل أَطيعُوا اللَّهَ وَالرَّسولَ فَإِن تَوَلَّوا فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ لا يُحِبُّ الكٰفِرينَ1- "Follow me" is explained in 332 by "Obey GOD and obey the messenger". That is how you follow the prophet . The sunnah of the prophet is never mentioned and does not exist in Qoran. Only GOD s sunnah-System-. Or bring any verse where GOD says obey the prophet Mohammed and his sunnah. You will not find a single verse why?
Because Qoran also says "Whoever obeys the messenger has obeyed GOD". .The messenger does not bring or add his own words/message ,in that case he becomes his own messenger not GOD s.. GOD s words are precise ,measured and never contradict the meaning and concept.2-Now you can keep disagreeing with me ,but what you can never do is make Qoran say nonsense and contradictions.
Qoran says in numerous verses "Follow what GOD has revealed and do not follow any other authority/another god or anyone else s revelations " .
What GOD has revealed is clear and in a separate book of its own , not what the prophet said or others heard him say as a man in his own words.
You are mixing GOD s words with the prophet s own words and other so called hear say and obeying the prophet but disobeying GOD s own words.
Actually Qoran clearly says the messenger does not disobey GOD ,so how can he mix his own words with GOD s words and deliver both?
Or give lip service to Qoran and keep disobeying GOD.
Your choice.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Thank you Brother Jkhan, for taking the time to read my post and share your thoughts. I appreciate your passion for the Quran and your desire to follow it alone. However, I respectfully disagree with some of the points you made in your response.
Regarding the first point you raised about the verses 255 and 2948, I understand that you interpret them as evidence that the Prophet Muhammad wrote the Quran himself. However, it is important to note that there are other valid interpretations of these verses. Some scholars believe that 255 is referring to the claims of the disbelievers who accused the Prophet of reciting "tales of the ancients" rather than the Quran, and that 2948 is emphasizing the miraculous nature of the Quran's revelation and the fact that it was not written by human hands. Therefore, while I respect your interpretation, I believe that it is not the only possible one.
Regarding the use of historical evidence and hadith, I want to clarify that I did not argue that hadith should be blindly followed as historical evidence. Rather, my point was that the interpretation and application of religious texts, including the Quran, can be influenced by various factors, including historical context and individual beliefs. While it is important to consider authentic hadith in order to understand the context and meaning of certain Quranic verses, we should also be critical of hadith that do not align with the Quran or with established historical facts.
I understand that you may have your own reasons for rejecting certain hadith, and I respect your right to do so. However, I would encourage you to approach these issues with an open mind and a willingness to engage in respectful dialogue with those who may have different perspectives. After all, as you pointed out, Allah does not guide those who do not want guidance, but He does encourage us to seek knowledge and understanding in all aspects of our lives.
Finally, I want to emphasize that my post was not to criticize or belittle anyone's beliefs. Rather, I wanted to explore some of the complex issues surrounding the interpretation and application of religious texts, and to encourage readers to think critically about these issues. I hope that my response has been respectful and informative.
Peace...
Peace...
Either you debate in a way it deserves Or ask your scholars you follow to come and debate, rather than saying some scholars have different view on these two verses thus you follow what they say directly and not what Quran says...
Isn't that nonsensical while Quran commands to explore Quran...
Well... Let me wind it up in a pragmatic way.. Let me take quran and hadith... For example.. Hmmm.. Four steps of washings before Salat... Okay Quran is clear... 56 and 443.. Meanwhile hadith has seven steps... So if Mohamed practices 7 steps instead of 4 steps.. It means Mohamed has got some other sources or devine intervention so that Mohamed practiced 7 steps instead of Quranic command... Coz you say Mohamed explained the Quran and taught the Quran... So.. No mohamed or anyone on this earth can teach based on 56 and 443 seven steps before salat... But somehow hadith instructs to do seven steps... So followers of sunna they follow seven steps...
So is it through Mohamed's wisdom or knowledge or extra revelation or on his own he practiced seven steps?So Mohamed was not following Quran but something else so approached seven steps... Is that right...
Or else let me take another hadith.... Stoning to death for prostitutes.. As far as I am aware it is not in Quran... But it is in fact in hadith.. I wonder it was practiced and it may still be in practice by so and so..
So.. Same question... From where Mohamed got the wisdom to put into practice such acts which are not in Quran... Or he got a special power to perceive quran verses and get extraordinary meaning to clear verses... But... no way anyone can bring such meaning from manifest verses... So Mohamed has got some other devine revelations saying don't practice Quran verses but practice these extra devine inspirations.. So let the followers do same..
So in a nutshell, you and those unfortunate people who follow hadith books of various people directly accept that Mohamed was not only revealed Quran but other devine revelations... That to the extent leaving Quran verses away but preferred extra devine revelations... Well... Why in the first place Quran was revealed if not for practicing its law, command, teachings etc ?
In the similar way if we take many a practices in action among both shunni and shia sects, there are many a thousand actual religious practices which are not at all in Quran... So is that how Prophet Mohamed taught his people.. I mean some alien practices which are not in Quran?
That's one point...Another point is... Not at all in Quran nor even in previous books but only in hadith books they are found... Wow..
For example about musa and loads of stories about him.. Or else about Janna and Jahanna.. Not at all in Quran but in hadith... In sahih hadith book...
So... These are not sunna but Ghaib... But somehow in hadith books claiming prophet said Prophet said bla bla... This strange prophet has had many a revelations other than Quran... Otherwise how he would tell all these stories about Gaib...
Why stories of Musa etc is in Quran to certain extent and why much more in hadith in a very fancy manner...
So in a nutshell this prophet had some devine inspiration to talk against Quran's message... And these followers are so happy hearing these hadiths...
Did Mohamed in fact say all these and his companions heard them and wrote them so later Bukhari collected and discarded 98% of them and kept in tact what he preferred and thus a book called sahih bukhari reached to us...
In a simple way Mohamed will deny on the day of judgement... "My Lord my people abandoned this Quran...." Very well said our Messenger... I love to hear that on that day and look at those faces...
You all making a prophet responsible for all these blaspheme who is innocent of all these nonsense ...If we had a hadith book which explains the verses of Quran on their own understanding that we can say their interpretation but hadith book we have is not explanation of Quran but sheer Nonesencical exagerated blasphemy in the name of prophet...
How blessed and fortunate those who realized it... AL hamdulilah I am not one of those who are stuck like this Fusion...
Thank you...
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Hello JKhan,
Thank you for your response and for engaging in this discussion. I appreciate your passion for following the Quran alone, and I respect your perspective. I would like to address the points you raised in a respectful and open manner.
Regarding the interpretation of verses 255 and 2948, I understand that you have a specific understanding of these verses. However, it is important to note that different scholars may have different interpretations based on their study and analysis of the Quran. The Quran itself encourages us to reflect and explore its teachings, which is why we have a rich tradition of scholarly interpretations.
Regarding the issue of ablution before Salat, I acknowledge the difference in the number of steps mentioned in the Quran and in some hadith. While the Quran mentions four steps in ablution (56, 443), some hadith mention additional steps. It is worth considering that the additional steps mentioned in the hadith may have developed over time as a practical application or as an elaboration of the basic principles outlined in the Quran. It doesn't necessarily mean that the Prophet Muhammad received a separate revelation or practiced differently from what the Quran instructed.
As for the issue of stoning to death for adultery, I agree that it is not mentioned explicitly in the Quran. However, it is worth noting that there are hadith narrations that mention this punishment. It is important to approach this topic with caution and consider that the application of such punishments requires strict conditions and adherence to the principles of justice outlined in the Quran.
I understand your concern about the presence of stories in hadith that are not found in the Quran, such as the stories of Musa and descriptions of Paradise and Hell. While the Quran provides some details about these topics, hadith literature has further elaborated on them. It is important to approach these stories with critical thinking, as not all of them may hold the same level of authenticity. Scholars of hadith have developed methodologies to assess the reliability of narrations and to differentiate between authentic and weak reports.
Regarding the compilation of hadith collections like Sahih Bukhari, it is true that they were compiled by scholars who sought to preserve the sayings and actions of the Prophet Muhammad. The process involved scrutinizing and evaluating the narrations to determine their authenticity. However, it is important to recognize that even authentic hadith collections are not considered on the same level as the Quran. They are viewed as a secondary source of guidance, providing insights into the understanding and practices of the early Muslim community.
I want to emphasize that my intention is not to promote blind adherence to hadith or to belittle anyone's beliefs. Rather, I believe in approaching these issues with critical thinking, respectful dialogue, and an open mind. We should strive to seek knowledge, understand different perspectives, and base our beliefs and practices on sound evidence and reasoning.
May we all continue to seek guidance and understanding in our pursuit of knowledge and practice of our faith.
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Hi GL,
Thank you for sharing your perspective and providing further insights on the verses in question. I respect your commitment to following the Quran and your interpretation of the verses. I would like to address the points you raised
You mentioned that in verse 331, the Quran instructs believers to follow the Prophet Muhammad and his sunnah. However, you argue that the term "sunnah" refers to God's system or way rather than the Prophet's traditions. You also emphasize that obeying the Prophet means obeying God and that the Prophet does not bring his own words or message.
I appreciate your interpretation of the term "sunnah" and its significance in the Quran. It is true that the term can have broader meanings, including God's system or way of doing things. However, it is also important to acknowledge that the term has been traditionally understood to refer to the Prophet Muhammad's actions, sayings, and approvals as recorded in the hadith literature. This understanding has been widely accepted by scholars throughout history. While it is essential to consider different interpretations, it is important to recognize the diversity of scholarly opinions on this matter.You mentioned the importance of following what God has revealed and not following any other authority or revelations. You argue that the Quran is a separate book containing God's clear words, and that mixing the Prophet's own words with God's words can lead to contradictions and disobedience.
I understand your concern about potential contradictions and the importance of staying true to the Quran's message. It is crucial for believers to prioritize the Quran as the primary source of guidance. However, it is also worth noting that the Prophet Muhammad, as the recipient of the Quranic revelations, played a significant role in explaining and exemplifying its teachings. The hadith literature serves as a means to understand the practical application of the Quran's teachings and the Prophet's understanding of its principles.While it is important to exercise caution and critically evaluate hadiths, it is also recognized by many scholars that authentic hadiths can provide valuable insights into the Prophet's understanding and application of the Quran. The key is to approach hadiths with a critical mindset, ensuring that they are in alignment with the Quran and established historical facts.
In conclusion, I appreciate your perspective and the emphasis you place on following the Quran. I respect your commitment to understanding and practicing Islam based on your interpretation. It is through open and respectful dialogue that we can continue to deepen our understanding of the Quran and its teachings. May we all seek guidance from God and strive to follow His path.
Peace and blessings to you as well.
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Peace Fusion.
There is no word sunnah in verse 331. I never said this ,quote"You mentioned that in verse 331, the Quran instructs believers to follow the Prophet Muhammad and his sunnah."
There is only "Follow me" in 331. You are saying it is "follow prophet Mohammed and his sunnah". I am saying you do not find "follow prophet Mohammed " or "follow prophet Mohammed and his sunnah" in Qoran.
I said "follow me" was explained in 332 as" obey GOD and obey the messenger" Which means " obey GOD and follow His message". Obeying the messenger is Obeying the message he brought from GOD.
You are ignoring the fact that Qoran Alone is complete and GOD Alone is the explainer and teacher . Here are verses for you to ponder in that case
Is there any equal to the One who controls every single soul? Yet, they set up idols to rival God. Say, "Name them. Are you informing Him of something on earth that He does not know? Or, are you fabricating empty statements?" Indeed, the schemes of those who disbelieve have been adorned in their eyes. They are thus diverted from the right path. Whomever God sends astray can never find a guiding teacher.
أَفَمَن هُوَ قائِمٌ عَلىٰ كُلِّ نَفسٍ بِما كَسَبَت وَجَعَلوا لِلَّهِ شُرَكاءَ قُل سَمّوهُم أَم تُنَبِّـٔونَهُ بِما لا يَعلَمُ فِى الأَرضِ أَم بِظٰهِرٍ مِنَ القَولِ بَل زُيِّنَ لِلَّذينَ كَفَروا مَكرُهُم وَصُدّوا عَنِ السَّبيلِ وَمَن يُضلِلِ اللَّهُ فَما لَهُ مِن هادٍHadiths and Qoran are partners to you then? Assign partners to GOD if you insist!!
Those who received the scripture rejoice in what was revealed to you; some others may reject parts of it. Say, "I am simply enjoined to serve/follow God, and never associate any idols with Him. I invite to Him, and to Him is my ultimate destiny."
وَالَّذينَ ءاتَينٰهُمُ الكِتٰبَ يَفرَحونَ بِما أُنزِلَ إِلَيكَ وَمِنَ الأَحزابِ مَن يُنكِرُ بَعضَهُ قُل إِنَّما أُمِرتُ أَن أَعبُدَ اللَّهَ وَلا أُشرِكَ بِهِ إِلَيهِ أَدعوا وَإِلَيهِ مَـٔابِReject GOD s verses and follow hadiths if you keep insisting!
We revealed these laws in Arabic, and if you ever acquiesce to their wishes, after this knowledge has come to you, you will have no ally, nor a protector, against God.
وَكَذٰلِكَ أَنزَلنٰهُ حُكمًا عَرَبِيًّا وَلَئِنِ اتَّبَعتَ أَهواءَهُم بَعدَما جاءَكَ مِنَ العِلمِ ما لَكَ مِنَ اللَّهِ مِن وَلِىٍّ وَلا واقFollow hadiths laws intead of GOD s laws if you wish!
God erases whatever He wills, and fixes. With Him is the original Master Record.
يَمحُوا اللَّهُ ما يَشاءُ وَيُثبِتُ وَعِندَهُ أُمُّ الكِتٰبِWatch, Hadiths being erased from GOD s religion slowly in the future brother. Wake up brother. We never know how long we have left and It will be too late to correct.. The messenger delivered the message to us-Qoran-
Whether we show you what we promise them, or terminate your life before that, your sole mission is to deliver (the message). It is us who will call them to account.
وَإِن ما نُرِيَنَّكَ بَعضَ الَّذى نَعِدُهُم أَو نَتَوَفَّيَنَّكَ فَإِنَّما عَلَيكَ البَلٰغُ وَعَلَينَا الحِسابُ
Do they not see that every day on earth, brings them closer to the end, and that God decides their life span, irrevocably? He is the most efficient Reckoner.
أَوَلَم يَرَوا أَنّا نَأتِى الأَرضَ نَنقُصُها مِن أَطرافِها وَاللَّهُ يَحكُمُ لا مُعَقِّبَ لِحُكمِهِ وَهُوَ سَريعُ الحِسابِOr may be GOD is going to ask us about hadiths and hold us accountable to them? Never brother, these verses will finish any argument about following hadiths/ here is what we are accountable for
"You cannot make the dead, nor the deaf, hear the call, if they turn away.
إِنَّكَ لا تُسمِعُ المَوتىٰ وَلا تُسمِعُ الصُّمَّ الدُّعاءَ إِذا وَلَّوا مُدبِرينَNor can you guide the blind out of their straying. The only ones who will hear you are those who believe in our revelations, and decide to be Muslimeen.
وَما أَنتَ بِهٰدِى العُمىِ عَن ضَلٰلَتِهِم إِن تُسمِعُ إِلّا مَن يُؤمِنُ بِـٔايٰتِنا فَهُم مُسلِمون.The day will come when we summon from every community some of those who did not believe in our Aayats, forcibly.
وَيَومَ نَحشُرُ مِن كُلِّ أُمَّةٍ فَوجًا مِمَّن يُكَذِّبُ بِـٔايٰتِنا فَهُم يوزَعونَWhen they arrive, He will say, "You have rejected My revelations, before acquiring knowledge about them. Is this not what you did?"
حَتّىٰ إِذا جاءو قالَ أَكَذَّبتُم بِـٔايٰتى وَلَم تُحيطوا بِها عِلمًا أَمّاذا كُنتُم تَعمَلونَ
They will incur the requital for their wickedness; they will say nothing.
وَوَقَعَ القَولُ عَلَيهِم بِما ظَلَموا فَهُم لا يَنطِقونَOr where does GOD hold us accountable for Qoran and Hadiths? I see only being accountable to study and follow Qoran-GOD s revelations-
I am simply commanded to Ubud(serve/follow) the Lord of this town - He has made it a safe sanctuary - and He possesses all things. I am commanded to be a Muslim .
إِنَّما أُمِرتُ أَن أَعبُدَ رَبَّ هٰذِهِ البَلدَةِ الَّذى حَرَّمَها وَلَهُ كُلُّ شَىءٍ وَأُمِرتُ أَن أَكو
And to recite#preach the Qoran. Whoever is guided is guided for his own good, and if they go astray, then say, "I am simply a warner."
وَأَن أَتلُوَا۟ القُرءانَ فَمَنِ اهتَدىٰ فَإِنَّما يَهتَدى لِنَفسِهِ وَمَن ضَلَّ فَقُل إِنَّما أَنا۠ مِنَ المُنذِرينَOr may be hadiths guide some people. as well.
I finish here also. Your choice brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
