Muhammad not mentioned in the Koran...

unknownuser

Greetings Ali Omar,

Thanks for your reply..

Forgive me for being slow to catch on, but in the link you suggested I do not find any qualities of a prophet.

Correct.

Some Muslims think that it does?which only goes to show that people will read into the ayahs that which they want to see?

I am very sorry to trouble you again, but would you please be so kind as to clarify the last part of my question

What do you consider to be the qualities of a Messenger and what do you consider to be the qualities of a Prophet.

Let?s review some Biblical definitions for Messenger

From the OT?

H4397

mal'ak
BDB Definition

messenger, representative
1a) messenger
1b) angel
1c) the theophanic angel
Part of Speech noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong?s Number from an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy
Same Word by TWOT Number 1068a

H4397

mal'ak
mal-awk'
From an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy; a messenger; specifically of God, that is, an angel (also a prophet, priest or teacher) - ambassador, angel, king, messenger.

From the NT?

G32

aggelos
Thayer Definition

a messenger, envoy, one who is sent, an angel, a messenger from God
Part of Speech noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer?s/Strong?s Number from aggello (to bring tidings)
Citing in TDNT 174, 12

G32

aggelos
ang'-el-os
From aggello (probably derived from G71; compare G34; to bring tidings); a messenger; especially an ?angel?; by implication a pastor - angel, messenger.

Hence, from the classic definitions alone, I would say that the overwhelming evidence points to a ?messenger? as being an angel?thus being sent by God.

Let?s review some Biblical definitions for Prophet

From the OT?

H5030

naby'
BDB Definition

spokesman, speaker, prophet
1a) prophet
1b) false prophet
1c) heathen prophet
Part of Speech noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong?s Number from H5012
Same Word by TWOT Number 1277a

H5030

naby'
naw-bee'
From H5012; a prophet or (generally) inspired man - prophecy, that prophesy, prophet.

H5012

naba'
naw-baw'
A primitive root; to prophesy, that is, speak (or sing) by inspiration (in prediction or simple discourse) - prophesy (-ing) make self a prophet.

H5012

naba'
BDB Definition

to prophesy
1a) (Niphal)
1a1) to prophesy
1a1a) under influence of divine spirit
1a1b) of false prophets
1b) (Hithpael)
1b1) to prophesy
1b1a) under influence of divine spirit
1b1b) of false prophets
Part of Speech verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong?s Number a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number 1277

From the NT?

G4396

prophetes
Thayer Definition

in Greek writings, an interpreter of oracles or of other hidden things
one who, moved by the Spirit of God and hence his organ or spokesman, solemnly declares to men what he has received by inspiration, especially concerning future events, and in particular such as relate to the cause and kingdom of God and to human salvation
2a) the OT prophets, having foretold the kingdom, deeds and death, of Jesus the Messiah.
2b) of John the Baptist, the herald of Jesus the Messiah
2c) of the illustrious prophet, the Jews expected before the advent of the Messiah
2d) the Messiah
2e) of men filled with the Spirit of God, who by God?s authority and command in words of weight pleads the cause of God and urges salvation of men
2f) of prophets that appeared in the apostolic age among Christians
2f1) they are associated with the apostles
2f2) they discerned and did what is best for the Christian cause, foretelling certain future events. (Act_1127)
2f3) in the religious assemblies of the Christians, they were moved by the Holy Spirit to speak, having power to instruct, comfort, encourage, rebuke, convict, and stimulate, their hearers
a poet (because poets were believed to sing under divine inspiration)
3a) of Epimenides (Tit_112)
Part of Speech noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer?s/Strong?s Number from a compound of G4253 and G5346
Citing in TDNT 6781, 952

G4396

prophetes
prof-ay'-tace
From a compound of G4253 and G5346; a foreteller (?prophet?); by analogy an inspired speaker; by extension a poet - prophet.

Hence, from the classic definitions alone, I would say that the overwhelming evidence points to a ?prophet? as being a man?thus being inspired by the Holy Spirit.

As I understand this must be linked to a context, could you also please give me an example?

From the Holy Bible or the Koran?.?

Take care?

unknownuser

Greetings idolfree1,

Thanks for your reply?

Quote

Start a thread with your assertions?

I'll wait a bit to start a whole thread on it, it looks like you are having trouble asnwering basic question from your own physicl book idol (yes, books can be idols as well) based on your responses to Nabi.

Have you read the story of Ausar and Auset (Osirus and Isis)? if not , they include "virgin birth" of a "savior" for starters.

Be sure to show the original languages in your thread?

Jesus says in the book you follow, "why callest me good, there is none good but GOD"

Yes?.an acknowledgement that He is indeed God.

Context please?

It is really up to you though, it always is. You have t o make the decision to take an unbiased look at the info you are getting. Do more studying of more ancient texts, like the story of Gilgamesh which is the original "flood" story.

Please be sure to include the Epic of Gilgamesh.

We will see which version has the original.

Make sure that you also include the corrupted Koranic version, as well?

Manage? a trio?as it were?

Quote
Quote
Actually , I'll probably start another thread for this.

Regarding "muhammad". its not a person in history, all of these stories are pointing to all of us, to our lives and spiritual processes. Thats what all the "religious books" intend. Yet those who join SECTS want to fight and argue about "my book is the best", "your book is a copy", etc. Why not focus on tyhe messsages they all contain, because to argue about quran being a copy of bible is foolish when the bible can be attacked just as easily.

The authors who penned the Koranic text (as we know it today) proclaimed hundreds of times that they merely copied and collected the previous Jewish and Christian scriptures.

Muslims will deny this until they are blue in the face?

The word "muslim is not a title, humans who are peaceful submitters will only deny that which is not logical according to the God's verifyable laws. All else is subjective , and can be argued until death, likle the argument of hot vs cold, which when made objective (i.e. 55 degrees) can be decided and agreed upon.

Jesus represents the Will ("Heru" in the story of Ausar, or "Horus" in greek version) which is born of the "virgin" (from within) to help us transcend the animal nature. Thats why the Bible says "get ye behind me satan", the animal must be BEHIND YOU, not leading you. Satan is described by many to have horns, tail, and hoofs, this again speaks of the animal nature in MAN, not just one man named Jesus.

The beast is indeed mankind.

This is stated in the Holy Bible and carried over by the authors of the Koran?

Thanks?

Ali_Omar

Dear Apple Pie,

Thank you for your elaboration.

From your references to the Bible I understand that a messenger is an angel, whereas a prophet is a man inspired by the Holy Spirit.

According to this, it is then incorrect to state that Jesus was a messenger or a prophet as I fail to see how he could both be God and at the same time be sent by God, or inspired by the Holy Spirit.

However, there seem to be some disagreement in the Bible, for instance in Mark 6, Matt. 13 among others.
According to Mark 6.4 Jesus said "Only in his hometown, among his relatives and in his own house is a prophet without honor."; obviously referring to himself.

So, Jesus says that he is a prophet and therefore, not God, because a prophet, according to your findings, is a man inspired by the Holy Spirit.

However you also seem to state that Jesus was God.
I can not get this to tally, was Jesus God or was he sent by God and inspired by the Holy Spirit, who, together with Jesus and God, is God?

I am sorry, but I seem to go from being uncertain to being confused.

Maybe, if you could please put this all into a context from both the Bible and the Koran it would become clearer.

Regds

Ali Omar

unknownuser

Greetings Ali Omar,

Thanks for your reply?

Dear Apple Pie,

Thank you for your elaboration.

From your references to the Bible I understand that a messenger is an angel, whereas a prophet is a man inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Then we are in general agreement with the classical Biblical definitions for ?messenger? and ?prophet??

Now that we have a grasp of the Biblical definitions, we now need to get a grasp of the Koranic definitions for both of these terms.

Please bring forth your understanding of the classic Arabic for these two terms?such as I have already done for the Holy Bible?so that we can see exactly how Islam?s ?prophet? stacks-up?

According to this, it is then incorrect to state that Jesus was a messenger or a prophet as I fail to see how he could both be God and at the same time be sent by God, or inspired by the Holy Spirit.

If you cast doubt on this, then you would also be casting doubt upon the Koran?

However, there seem to be some disagreement in the Bible, for instance in Mark 6, Matt. 13 among others.
According to Mark 6.4 Jesus said "Only in his hometown, among his relatives and in his own house is a prophet without honor."; obviously referring to himself.

So, Jesus says that he is a prophet and therefore, not God, because a prophet, according to your findings, is a man inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Jesus has many attributes.

Examination of His attributes informs us of the complete picture of who He is.

Why do you choose to isolate one attribute from all of the others?.?

However you also seem to state that Jesus was God.

First of all, the operative words would be ?is God???not ?was God??..

Secondly, it is not I who states this, but the Holy Bible and the Koran.

I can not get this to tally, was Jesus God or was he sent by God and inspired by the Holy Spirit, who, together with Jesus and God, is God?

I am sorry, but I seem to go from being uncertain to being confused.

Maybe, if you could please put this all into a context from both the Bible and the Koran it would become clearer.

Regds

Ali Omar

The Creator God of the Universe, the entity who created time itself, is not limited by time.

Hence, why is it difficult to grasp that He would reveal Himself to His creation as a Uniplural entity that is not bound by the same four dimensions that we are?

Once you come to this realization, then it becomes perfectly clear that the God, revealed to us in the Biblical scriptures, is the true Creator God of the Universe?..and is demonstrating that He is unbound by time itself?

The Biblical God is in stark contrast to the ?god? of Islam, and all man-made religions, who attempt to pigeon-hole their ?god? or ?gods? into the four dimensions that humans can experience?

Thanks?

Ali_Omar

Dear Apple Pie,

AP
Now that we have a grasp of the Biblical definitions, we now need to get a grasp of the Koranic definitions for both of these terms.

AO
Why?

AO
According to this, it is then incorrect to state that Jesus was a messenger or a prophet as I fail to see how he could both be God and at the same time be sent by God, or inspired by the Holy Spirit.

AP
If you cast doubt on this, then you would also be casting doubt upon the Koran?

AO
My dear, I do not cast anything on anything, I simply refer to your findings from the Bible.

AP
Jesus has many attributes.

Examination of His attributes informs us of the complete picture of who He is.

Why do you choose to isolate one attribute from all of the others?.?

AO
Excellent comment!
I simply refer to your statements, and compare them to what Jesus allegedly says in the Bible.

Was/is he a prophet, i.e. a man, four dimensional, inspired by the Holy Spirit or was/is he not?

AO
However you also seem to state that Jesus was God.

AP
First of all, the operative words would be ?is God???not ?was God??..

Secondly, it is not I who states this, but the Holy Bible and the Koran.

AO
OK, is God, was prophet.
I understand that the Bible, according to you is stating this, but I can not find this statement in the Qur?an.

AP
The Creator God of the Universe, the entity who created time itself, is not limited by time.

Hence, why is it difficult to grasp that He would reveal Himself to His creation as a Uniplural entity that is not bound by the same four dimensions that we are?

AO
God is timeless, agreed.
However God did not specifically create what we call time, but as all creations have a beginning and an end, time is our concept to understand this. Time, therefore only seem to exist for God?s creations.

I also fully agree that God is not bound by any of our dimensions.

Now, here is something that I have problems with.

God is almighty, all-knowing. Mistakes are not possible for God.
Let us therefore recapitulate part of what we know, or think we know

God created everything, also man. But, as he was running short of material, or maybe he forgot the formula, he used a rib bone from man to create a partner, woman. BIG MISTAKE! This woman tricked man into something that God could not possibly have foreseen???.eh??..but God was all-knowing!?!? Well, anyway, the man and the woman were kicked out of Paradise, as a result.
Things continued to get worse and at last God got so fed-up that he sent a part of himself, in the shape of a man who was inspired by the Holy Spirit, to shoulder all the sins of the World, against himself, through his own death. But, of course, as this man was God at the same time, he became alive again, and went back to wherever God is.

Now it became easier for humans, they had a manly figure to worship, bound by all dimensions, instead of an unseen God. And, unlike before, it doesn?t cut it if you believe in God only, you must also believe in Jesus and the Holy Spirit ??.eh??.. but those three are really God, so if you believe in God you believe in all three!?!? But, still, you can skip this, believe in Jesus being God, and all is well!!!
And I have been lured into thinking that God is Almighty! But, wait a minute, it is still claimed that he is.

Well, I again must fully agree with you, the biblical god is really in stark contrast to the God of Islam. The biblical god has shown himself as a four-dimensional figure, unlike the God of the Qur?an who is not bound by any dimensions, but is above all that.
I think I stick to this one, unless proven wrong, it is simpler.

Best regards

Ali Omar

unknownuser

Greetings Ali Omar,

Thanks for your reply?

Dear Apple Pie,

AP
Now that we have a grasp of the Biblical definitions, we now need to get a grasp of the Koranic definitions for both of these terms.

AO
Why?

Since this thread is about Islam?s ?prophet?, would it not be prudent to understand the Arabic that supposedly describes him?.?

From your reply, we can surmise two things

You don?t know the definitions of the classic Arabic words ?messenger? & ?prophet?.
Or?.you are content to use the classic Biblical definitions to judge what the Koran states.

AO
According to this, it is then incorrect to state that Jesus was a messenger or a prophet as I fail to see how he could both be God and at the same time be sent by God, or inspired by the Holy Spirit.

AP
If you cast doubt on this, then you would also be casting doubt upon the Koran?

AO
My dear, I do not cast anything on anything, I simply refer to your findings from the Bible.

Actually you have cast doubt upon what the Holy Bible states by stating that you ?fail to see how he could both be God and at the same time be sent by God, or inspired by the Holy Spirit.?

You acknowledge that the Holy Bible states these things?.however your limited paradigm of the god of Islam does not allow you to comprehend an entity that transcends time itself.

AP
Jesus has many attributes.

Examination of His attributes informs us of the complete picture of who He is.

Why do you choose to isolate one attribute from all of the others?.?

AO
Excellent comment!
I simply refer to your statements, and compare them to what Jesus allegedly says in the Bible.

Was/is he a prophet, i.e. a man, four dimensional, inspired by the Holy Spirit or was/is he not?

Jesus is God in the flesh.

This is only one attribute of the ONE uniplural God.

AO
However you also seem to state that Jesus was God.

AP
First of all, the operative words would be ?is God???not ?was God??..

Secondly, it is not I who states this, but the Holy Bible and the Koran.

AO
OK, is God, was prophet.
I understand that the Bible, according to you is stating this, but I can not find this statement in the Qur?an.

The Koran is completely saturated with the deity of Jesus.

Here is one small example

First and Last, Koran (571-4)

First and Last, Book of Revelation (19-20, 27-8, 2212-21)

First and Last, Koran

Praised/glorified to Allah what is in the skies/space and the earth/Planet Earth, and He is the glorious/mighty, the wise/judicious. For Him (is) the skies'/space's and the earth's/Planet Earth's ownership/kingdom, He revives/makes alive, and He makes die, and He is on every thing capable/able. He is the first/beginning and the last/end, and the apparent/visible, and the hidden/inside, and He is with every thing knowledgeable. He is who created the skies/space and the earth/Planet Earth in six days/times, then He aimed/tended to on the throne, He knows what enters/penetrates in the earth/Planet Earth, and what gets out/emerges from it, and what descends from the sky/space, and what ascends/climbs in it, and He is with you wherever you were, and Allah (is) with what you make/do seeing/ knowing. (571-4)

First and Last, Book of Revelation

I, even your brother John, and co-sharer in the affliction, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, came to be in the island being called Patmos because of the Word of God, and because of the witness of Jesus Christ. I came to be in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, saying, I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last; also, What you see, write in a scroll, and send to the seven assemblies of Asia to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamos, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea. And I turned to see the voice which spoke with me. And having turned, I saw seven golden lampstands, and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, having been clothed to the feet, and having been girded with a golden girdle at the breasts. And the hairs of His head were white as white wool, as snow, and His eyes as a flame of fire; and His feet like burnished brass having been fired in a furnace; and His voice as a sound of many waters; and having in His right hand seven stars; and a sharp, two-edged sword proceeding out of His mouth, and His face shining as the sun in its power. And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet, as dead. And He put His right hand on me, saying to me, Do not fear. I am the First and the Last, and the Living One; and I became dead; and, behold, I am living forever and ever. Amen. And I have the keys to hell, and of death. Write what things you saw, and what things are, and what things are about to occur after these things. The mystery of the seven stars which you saw on My right, and the seven golden lampstands the seven stars are angels of the seven assemblies, and the seven lampstands you saw are seven assemblies. (Rev 19-20)

The one who has an ear, hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. To the one overcoming, I will give to him to eat of the Tree of Life which is in the midst of the Paradise of God. And to the angel of the assembly of Smyrna, write These things says the First and the Last, Who became dead, and lived (Rev 27-8 )

And, behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to each as his work is. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, the First and the Last. Blessed are the ones doing His commands, that their authority will be over the Tree of Life, and by the gates they may enter into the city. But outside are the dogs and the sorcerers, and the fornicators, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and everyone loving a lie, and making it. I, Jesus, sent My angel to testify these things to you over the assemblies. I am the Root and Offspring of David, the bright and morning Star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come! And the one hearing, let him say, Come! And the one thirsting, let him come; and the one desiring, let him take of the water of life freely. For I testify together with everyone hearing the Words of the prophecy of this Book, if anyone adds to these things, God will add upon him the plagues having been written in this Book. And if anyone takes away from the Words of the Book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the Book of Life, and out of the holy city, and of the things having been written in this Book. The One testifying these things says, Yes, I am coming quickly. Amen. Yes, come, Lord Jesus! The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with all of you. Amen. (Rev 2212-21)

Summary

Who is the First & the Last?...Revelation, Jesus?Koran, Allah
Notice that Jesus States that He is the ?First & the Last? THREE separate times BEFORE integrating it in THREE different ways in 2213
Allah has aligned his ?deity? with that of Jesus
The Koran is stating that Jesus is God

AP
The Creator God of the Universe, the entity who created time itself, is not limited by time.

Hence, why is it difficult to grasp that He would reveal Himself to His creation as a Uniplural entity that is not bound by the same four dimensions that we are?

AO
God is timeless, agreed.
However God did not specifically create what we call time, but as all creations have a beginning and an end, time is our concept to understand this. Time, therefore only seem to exist for God?s creations.

You have just entered a circular argument.

If God created all things then He would have also had to have created time.

Special and General relativity tell us that time is associated with mass. Hence, anything with mass (i.e. the Universe and everything in it with mass, will experience time because it contains mass).

I also fully agree that God is not bound by any of our dimensions.

Now, here is something that I have problems with.

God is almighty, all-knowing. Mistakes are not possible for God.
Let us therefore recapitulate part of what we know, or think we know

God created everything, also man. But, as he was running short of material, or maybe he forgot the formula, he used a rib bone from man to create a partner, woman. BIG MISTAKE! This woman tricked man into something that God could not possibly have foreseen???.eh??..but God was all-knowing!?!? Well, anyway, the man and the woman were kicked out of Paradise, as a result.
Things continued to get worse and at last God got so fed-up that he sent a part of himself, in the shape of a man who was inspired by the Holy Spirit, to shoulder all the sins of the World, against himself, through his own death. But, of course, as this man was God at the same time, he became alive again, and went back to wherever God is.

It appears that you are sharing your biased Islamic view with us.

Unfortunately for Islam, their book of faith supports its source material, the Holy Bible?

Sura 86 should clarify this for you.

Now it became easier for humans, they had a manly figure to worship, bound by all dimensions, instead of an unseen God. And, unlike before, it doesn?t cut it if you believe in God only, you must also believe in Jesus and the Holy Spirit ??.eh??.. but those three are really God, so if you believe in God you believe in all three!?!? But, still, you can skip this, believe in Jesus being God, and all is well!!!

It appears that you also are shouldering the burden of Islam regarding the Biblical concept of the Trinity, as well.

Did you know that your Koran also proclaims the concept of the trinity??

It does?

And I have been lured into thinking that God is Almighty! But, wait a minute, it is still claimed that he is.

Well, I again must fully agree with you, the biblical god is really in stark contrast to the God of Islam. The biblical god has shown himself as a four-dimensional figure, unlike the God of the Qur?an who is not bound by any dimensions, but is above all that.
I think I stick to this one, unless proven wrong, it is simpler.

Best regards

Ali Omar

I suggest that you study your book of faith in the Arabic in which it was first translated from Biblical Hebrew and Greek ? instead of blindly following Islam.

Or?is Islam more important to you than your book of faith?..?

Think about it?

unknownuser

Peace be upon you,

Doesn't the Bible say that we would do the same things Jesus did and better?

unknownuser

Give us an example...

Ali_Omar

Dear Apple Pie,

Thank you for your demonstration of a vivid imagination. That is a gift that can open unpredictable doors, sometimes leading to further understanding, sometimes leading away from facts into a world of conjecture.

The Qur?an is better understood in the original language, yes I quite agree, but a good command of the Arabic language doesn?t give you an automatic understanding of the message. However there are ways to find the message that the Qur?an is giving, some of which we may still not have found, even though some of us are somewhat familiar with the Arabic language.

In general, and very simplified

?Malaikat? = angels
?Rasuul? = messenger
?Nabi? = prophet

2.98 speaks of angels and messengers in general and Gabriel and Michael in particular.
2.285 mentions angels and messengers separately.
22.75 says that messengers are chosen among angels and amongst men.
5.83 talks about something that was sent down to the messenger

There are more verses pointing to the same, namely that messengers could be angels and they could be men.
Messenger is not describing a certain ?species? it is a function amongst various species, namely to deliver messages ?sent down?.

2.248 mentions that their prophet spoke to the people
33.56 says that the angels support the prophet
3.79 mentions that God had blessed humans with prophethood

This point to something similar to what you have concluded, that a prophet is a physical human being inspired and/or helped, by angels as representatives of God.

66.1 mentions that the Prophet was warned against forbidding what God has allowed, and that he had wives.
66.3 again repeats that the prophet had wives.
3.146 indicates that there were more than one prophet
4.163 mentions Noah an the prophets after him

According to this, and other verses, there was more than one prophet.
And, as far as I understand, the prophet mentioned with wives can not be Jesus or any of the others who, reportedly, had no wives.

7.157 mentions a messenger and a prophet who was not learned in ?holy? scriptures, one who was mentioned in the scriptures prior to the Qur?an

This excludes those prophets knowledgeable in ?holy? scriptures as such, and he existed after the Injeel, or Gospel, came to us.
This excludes all prophets until after Jesus.

8.65-onwards, seem to indicate that the prophet was also a leader in armed conflicts
33.7 mentions prophets and also seems to speak directly to the receiver, saying ?you?, and as this verse was given to Muhammad it seems to indicate him as one of them
33.40 mentions Muhammad, specifically, and says that he was a prophet

This seems to indicate that the one who received the verses we read in the Qur?an was called a prophet.

3.80 mentions that angels and prophets are not to be taken as lords
19.30 says that Jesus told people that he was a servant of God and a prophet

This seems to indicate that there is a distinction between God and the prophets. And as Jesus was a prophet, both according to the Bible and to the Qur?an, he could not be God. To say that he could be God because God can come to us in any form is to stretch the messages a bit, and read into it what is not there. Or rather, to read into it the opposite of what it says.

All-in-all we may conclude that both angels and men can be messengers, that there were many prophets, and that one of these was Muhammad.
We also see that none on the prophets were God; they were, as you rightfully pointed out, men inspired by God.
That God chose means to communicate called angels, Gabriel, or ?Holy Spirit?, is insignificant, the inspiration was from God.

This all goes to indicate that to regard Jesus, or ?the Holy Spirit?, as God, is stretching reality a bit. They are/were just means that God use/used to communicate with humans, just like any other angel, prophet, messenger or signs around us.

The important thing here is that God communicates with us, and that we learn how to see and receive the messages given. Who/where/what is insignificant, including Jesus, Muhammad, Gabriel, Moses or whoever/whatever else.
It is reality and the Universe around us we should be observant of, what God is showing us, not to make anything besides God as objects to distract us from this reality.
The messages related to us should only be used as guides. Period!

Best regards

Ali Omar

unknownuser

Greetings Ali Omar,

Thanks for your reply?

Dear Apple Pie,

Thank you for your demonstration of a vivid imagination. That is a gift that can open unpredictable doors, sometimes leading to further understanding, sometimes leading away from facts into a world of conjecture.

Please feel completely free to verify what I state as truth?..

The Qur?an is better understood in the original language, yes I quite agree, but a good command of the Arabic language doesn?t give you an automatic understanding of the message. However there are ways to find the message that the Qur?an is giving, some of which we may still not have found, even though some of us are somewhat familiar with the Arabic language.

Since the authors of the Koran loudly proclaim that they used prior Jewish and Christian scriptures, then it should come as no surprise the Koran contains the Biblical message?

In general, and very simplified

?Malaikat? = angels
?Rasuul? = messenger
?Nabi? = prophet

2.98 speaks of angels and messengers in general and Gabriel and Michael in particular.
2.285 mentions angels and messengers separately.
22.75 says that messengers are chosen among angels and amongst men.
5.83 talks about something that was sent down to the messenger

There are more verses pointing to the same, namely that messengers could be angels and they could be men.
Messenger is not describing a certain ?species? it is a function amongst various species, namely to deliver messages ?sent down?.

So far so good?.

2.248 mentions that their prophet spoke to the people
33.56 says that the angels support the prophet
3.79 mentions that God had blessed humans with prophethood

This point to something similar to what you have concluded, that a prophet is a physical human being inspired and/or helped, by angels as representatives of God.

This would refer to the Holy Spirit in the Holy Bible?

66.1 mentions that the Prophet was warned against forbidding what God has allowed, and that he had wives.
66.3 again repeats that the prophet had wives.
3.146 indicates that there were more than one prophet
4.163 mentions Noah an the prophets after him

According to this, and other verses, there was more than one prophet.
And, as far as I understand, the prophet mentioned with wives can not be Jesus or any of the others who, reportedly, had no wives.

OK?.

7.157 mentions a messenger and a prophet who was not learned in ?holy? scriptures, one who was mentioned in the scriptures prior to the Qur?an

This excludes those prophets knowledgeable in ?holy? scriptures as such, and he existed after the Injeel, or Gospel, came to us.
This excludes all prophets until after Jesus.

And?.you feel that this describes Islam?s ?prophet??.?

8.65-onwards, seem to indicate that the prophet was also a leader in armed conflicts
33.7 mentions prophets and also seems to speak directly to the receiver, saying ?you?, and as this verse was given to Muhammad it seems to indicate him as one of them

?Seems to indicate??.?

You don?t sound too sure of yourself?

33.40 mentions Muhammad, specifically, and says that he was a prophet

Does it?.?

Please bring forth the Arabic of that ayah for exegesis?

This seems to indicate that the one who received the verses we read in the Qur?an was called a prophet.

Do ?prophets? then copy from previous Jewish and Christian scriptures?.?

3.80 mentions that angels and prophets are not to be taken as lords
19.30 says that Jesus told people that he was a servant of God and a prophet

Ahhh yes?..the talking Jesus ayahs?..from heretical Christian sources?.

This seems to indicate that there is a distinction between God and the prophets. And as Jesus was a prophet, both according to the Bible and to the Qur?an, he could not be God. To say that he could be God because God can come to us in any form is to stretch the messages a bit, and read into it what is not there. Or rather, to read into it the opposite of what it says.

Why do you ignore ALL of the scriptures (both Biblical and Koranic) that proclaim the divinity of Jesus?

You don?t even bother to mention them at all?

In typical Muslim fashion, you are failing to look at scripture as a whole before drawing conclusions?

You have fallen into the Islamic propaganda machine?

All-in-all we may conclude that both angels and men can be messengers, that there were many prophets, and that one of these was Muhammad.

Actually?..by using your book of faith?we CANNOT verify Islam?s claim of a prophet.

To say otherwise is wishful thinking.

We also see that none on the prophets were God; they were, as you rightfully pointed out, men inspired by God.

None except for Jesus?as mentioned in both the holy Bible and the Koran?.

That God chose means to communicate called angels, Gabriel, or ?Holy Spirit?, is insignificant, the inspiration was from God.

Actually, all Koranic ?inspiration? came from the authors who translated the Biblical Hebrew and Greek into Arabic?

How ?inspired? do you think they were?.?

This all goes to indicate that to regard Jesus, or ?the Holy Spirit?, as God, is stretching reality a bit. They are/were just means that God use/used to communicate with humans, just like any other angel, prophet, messenger or signs around us.

Then the authors of the Koran ?stretched reality??.

The important thing here is that God communicates with us, and that we learn how to see and receive the messages given. Who/where/what is insignificant, including Jesus, Muhammad, Gabriel, Moses or whoever/whatever else.
It is reality and the Universe around us we should be observant of, what God is showing us, not to make anything besides God as objects to distract us from this reality.
The messages related to us should only be used as guides. Period!

Best regards

Ali Omar

If you believe that Islam?s ?prophet? is insignificant, then you are in good company?.

Thanks?

Ali_Omar

Dear Apple Pie,

What you state as truth, is mainly from the hand of Paul and the hands of the ancient Jewish priests. To take that as truth instead of weighing what they write against reality is quite pathetic.

It seems that you are also ignorant of greater parts of the Qur?an, among other things that it says it is confirming what God has informed of earlier, not that it confirms all the existing Bibles or Thora, therefore you find in the Qur?an what has been lost from those previous messages.

If I were sure of all the meanings of everything in the Qur?an, at all times, I would probably not be a common human being; I would have had to be a prophet or a messenger. Maybe unlike you, I do not think I am.
I further think it will do you good to open the Qur?an, and it should not be too difficult to find 33.40. Since you think the verse says something else than what I have come to understand, I may be mistaken, and would like you to advise me.

I also still fail to find Jesus described as God in the Qur?an. On the contrary, I find 3.80, amongst others, telling that none of those we refer to as prophets were God.
Again I have to ask for advice, as I may have failed to take some of the facts into consideration, I have been learning for many years, and hope to continue learning till the end of my days, Illa an yasha'a Allah.
To call Jesus ?God? I believe is ?stretching reality?, and as I mentioned, as far as I can understand, the Qur?an does not do that. However, someone else does, wherever that idea came from.

Everything is insignificant compared to God and God?s system, including you and me, my friend.
The prophets? persons were not significant compared to God and God?s system; neither were/are the messengers, or the angels, in this respect. They are merely means of communication between God and us, or, if you would, servants of God.

What you seem to fail grasping, as do most religious and/or self-righteous, people, is that it is God and God?s system that are important to us. If we find a way to live in balance with the rest of the Universe, so that we are doing our bit for everything, and everyone around us, to exist in a most fulfilling way for all, then the rest is of no importance whatsoever. This is what God is telling us, but we keep altering the words of God to suit our perspective which is very shortsighted most of the time.

All what I have said is to the best of my own understanding, therefore please do not regard it as anything but my own ?truth?, but I hope my knowledge will grow. I am very grateful if you can contribute

Best regards

Ali Omar

unknownuser

Greetings Ali Omar,

Thanks for your comments..

Dear Apple Pie,

What you state as truth, is mainly from the hand of Paul and the hands of the ancient Jewish priests. To take that as truth instead of weighing what they write against reality is quite pathetic.

Comparison is the name of the game?.where have you been?.?

It seems that you are also ignorant of greater parts of the Qur?an, among other things that it says it is confirming what God has informed of earlier, not that it confirms all the existing Bibles or Thora, therefore you find in the Qur?an what has been lost from those previous messages.

I would venture to say that I am more cognizant of Koranic scriptures than most Muslims are?

In addition, you are correct in acknowledging that the Koran is merely a repository for the previous Jewish and Christian scriptures?

Unfortunately, your last comment regarding the Koran replacing what has been lost, is without Koranic support?

I further think it will do you good to open the Qur?an, and it should not be too difficult to find 33.40. Since you think the verse says something else then what I have come to understand, I may be mistaken, and would like you to advise me.

I will take this as an admission that you don?t (or can?t) take the time necessary to discover what your book of faith truly states on the matter?

Now you are to the point in which you are asking a Christian to inform you on what it states?.?

I also still fail to find Jesus described as God in the Qur?an.

Perhaps you would like to comment on the ?first and the Last? example that I presented before you?.

On the contrary, I find 3.80, amongst others, telling that none of those we refer to as prophets were God.
Again I have to ask for advice, as I may have failed to take some of the facts into consideration, I have been learning for many years, and hope to continue learning till the end of my days, Illa an yasha'a Allah.
To call Jesus ?God? I believe is ?stretching reality?, and as I mentioned, as far as I can understand, the Qur?an does not do that. However, someone else does, wherever that idea came from.

Here is more Koranic evidence that Jesus is God?

http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=28737#28737

What you seem to fail grasping, as do most religious and/or self-righteous, people, is that it is God and God?s system that are important to us. If we find a way to live in balance with the rest of the Universe, so that we are doing our bit for everything, and everyone around us, to exist in a most fulfilling way for all, then the rest is of no importance whatsoever. This is what God is telling us, but we keep altering the words of God to suit our perspective which is very shortsighted most of the time.

How would you know if you can?t be bothered in understanding the mother-tongue of your book of faith?.?

Thanks?

unknownuser

Comparison is the name of the game?.where have you been?.?

Only when its tit-for-tat, that is, talmud > bible > ahadiths. Where have YOU been??? Bibles cannot be compared to Quran, but Torah and Gospel can, if you can bring them forth.

In addition, you are correct in acknowledging that the Koran is merely a repository for the previous Jewish and Christian scriptures?

Only ahadiths by Bukhari, Malik, Saleh, Dawood, etc., acknowledges Paul, John, Mathew, Luke, etc.

Unfortunately, your last comment regarding the Koran replacing what has been lost, is without Koranic support?

The Quran supports itself by virtue of its own original script unchanged, whereas the bible, talmud and ahadiths are several-handed manipulations.

I will take this as an admission that you don?t (or can?t) take the time necessary to discover what your book of faith truly states on the matter?

From studying your viewpoints, I sincerely doubt that you have little knowledge of your own various editions/versions of your bible, similar to talmud and ahadiths; talk about Torah, Gospel and the Quran.

Now you are to the point in which you are asking a Christian to inform you on what it states?.?

A common trait in which a blind looks upon a seer.

Here is more Koranic evidence that Jesus is God?
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=28737#28737

The "evidence" is your own pre-conceived biblical/hadithic heresies, NOT Quranic.

How would you know if you can?t be bothered in understanding the mother-tongue of your book of faith?.?

What makes you think that YOU have? Where is your Gospel, the mother-tongue of your book of faith in its original language? Are you relying upon what John, Mathew, Luke and Paul are spreading about in English? Did you know that Jesus never spoke English.

unknownuser

Greetings Danish,

Thanks for your reply?

Apple Pie wrote

Comparison is the name of the game?.where have you been?.?

Only when its tit-for-tat, that is, talmud > bible > ahadiths. Where have YOU been??? Bibles cannot be compared to Quran, but Torah and Gospel can, if you can bring them forth.

First of all, we all can see that you are dissed, however, we are discussing Islam?s alleged prophet in this thread? wink

Secondly, the authors of the Koran made it known that they simply copied Biblical material?

Quote
In addition, you are correct in acknowledging that the Koran is merely a repository for the previous Jewish and Christian scriptures?

Only ahadiths by Bukhari, Malik, Saleh, Dawood, etc., acknowledges Paul, John, Mathew, Luke, etc.

Don?t forget to mention the authors of the Koran, as well?

Quote
Unfortunately, your last comment regarding the Koran replacing what has been lost, is without Koranic support?

The Quran supports itself by virtue of its own original script unchanged, whereas the bible, talmud and ahadiths are several-handed manipulations.

The only redeeming feature of the Koran is that it mainly copied Biblical material?

Even as such?..the Koran is still second-hand re-translated scriptures?

Who wants to settle for second-hand information when we have its source, the Holy Bible? wink

Quote
Here is more Koranic evidence that Jesus is God?
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=28737#28737

The "evidence" is your own pre-conceived biblical/hadithic heresies, NOT Quranic.

Actually, it?s all Koranic?..but?.how would you know??you are presently consumed with rage at the truth that I speak?

Take good care of yourself?

unknownuser

Peace,

Comparison is the name of the game?.where have you been?.?

Only when its tit-for-tat, that is, talmud > bible > ahadiths. Where have YOU been??? Bibles cannot be compared to Quran, but Torah and Gospel can, if you can bring them forth.

First of all, we all can see that you are dissed, however, we are discussing Islam?s alleged prophet in this thread? wink

That goes for your alleged god, Jesus, the dissing part of the dead which mankind have witnessed first hand. wink

Secondly, the authors of the Koran made it known that they simply copied Biblical material?

Acutally, the authors of the biblical materials made it known that they simply copied talmudic materials, similar to ahadiths, unlike Quran (the original and final revelation still in existance).

Quote
In addition, you are correct in acknowledging that the Koran is merely a repository for the previous Jewish and Christian scriptures?

Only ahadiths by Bukhari, Malik, Saleh, Dawood, etc., acknowledges Paul, John, Mathew, Luke, etc.

Don?t forget to mention the authors of the Koran, as well?

The Quran speaks for itself and we all know too well the Author of the Quran, unlike the bible and talmud.

Quote
Unfortunately, your last comment regarding the Koran replacing what has been lost, is without Koranic support?

The Quran supports itself by virtue of its own original script unchanged, whereas the bible, talmud and ahadiths are several-handed manipulations

The only redeeming feature of the Koran is that it mainly copied Biblical material?

Redemption of the Quran can only be distinguished by previous ORIGINAL SCRIPTURES, not biblical and talmudic materials written by unscrupulous men. Unfortunately, the previous ORIGINAL SCRIPTURES (Torah and Gospel) are non-existant, hence the Quran takes the precedence.

Even as such?..the Koran is still second-hand re-translated scriptures?

Must be the second-hand various re-invented versions (testaments) of bible in comparison to the one and only Quran, not to mention the one and only Gospel. Perhaps you are referring to the various translations/interpretations of it in various languages, which are not original, or even ahadiths of biblical nature.

Who wants to settle for second-hand information when we have its source, the Holy Bible? wink

You do, like your many versions of bibles, copied and penned from talmudic sources, in contrast with ahadiths.

Here is more Koranic evidence that Jesus is God?
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=28737#28737

The "evidence" is your own pre-conceived biblical/hadithic heresies, NOT Quranic.

Actually, it?s all Koranic?..but?.how would you know??you are presently consumed with rage at the truth that I speak?

Your 'truth' is revered by conjectural, inconsistant and heretic copied materials (bibles), NOT by Jesus himself. Check out the link I posted in Christianity section of this forum and try refuting your own book of faith.

Take good care of yourself?

You too and be sincere and true to yourself.

Ali_Omar

Dear Apple Pie,

What hinders you from looking into verse 33.40 yourself, as you, according to yourself, are ?more cognizant of Quran?ic scripture than most Muslims??

As you seem reluctant, I must draw the conclusion that the verse states what I have already said. But then again, your overall statement seems baseless, although I do not like to conclude with such an assumption.

Your ?Koranic? evidence is probably evidence to you but I can not find it, even though I am trying hard, and still re-reading what you suggested.
I must commend you on the nice pictures, though, but your conclusions are very far-fetched, from what I can see, but I keep my hopes up, and continue vigorously and haven?t given up yet.
You draw attention to the name of Chapters. These are not part of God?s message. (just for your information)

It would be interesting to know how you came to the conclusion that I don?t have any understanding of Arabic.
By the way, how do you know what my mother-tongue is?

Also, why are you so unwilling to assist me in my search for more knowledge? I do not need conjecture, which is found in abundance many other places. I hope to have tangible facts, or at least indices pointing towards a logical deduction.
You give very little of that, why? When you know the Qur?an better than most ?Muslims?, you must be a fountain of knowledge, please do not be stingy!

Best regards

Ali Omar

Ali_Omar

Dear Apple Pie,

I have studied what you have explained but am still at loss. In order to get Sura 86 to fit into your picture, you assume too many things that are not there, many of them mentioned in the answers you have already received from others.

One thing that is beyond doubt is that you assume the Bible (whichever version you are holding) is divine. Therefore it would be of interest to know exactly which version do you use?
Was the original of it written before, or after the Qur?an?
Where can I find the original of it?

The reason for asking is that it looks like some of the words of your Bible have borrowed expressions from the Qur?an.
This may well be connected to the fact that in the days when Islam was a World-power, many of the existing Bibles were actually written in Arabic and was thought to Christian students by Arabs. Whereas the Qur?an still exists in, mainly, the same form now, as it was before that era.

Another thing that I have forgotten to comment on was your notion of ?time?. God never created ?time?, as ?time? does not exist, only changes without beginning and without end.
When something is coming into ?existence?, we say that time begins for this ?existence?, and time ends when it does not ?exist? any more.
This is not so, let us say that a human is borne, lives and dies. Time has not passed for this human, it has only gone through a number of changes, and if we could follow the track of this human before its birth we would go through many generations of people and end up in eternity.
When the same human being dies, changes continue for this human being until eternity. Time doesn?t begin or stop, it is just a concept we use because we can not grasp ?eternity?, and must, therefore, find a way to limit it.

A short story demonstrating a time-less ?cycle?

In a forest, a tree was marked and cut down. It went to a paper-mill.
The product that came out from there was tissue paper. A fellow went into the woods one day and got very sweat. He used the tissue paper, that came from the said tree, to wipe his face, and threw it away. Due to ?nature?s forces?, the tissue paper went through stages of decomposition until it became indistinguishable from the soil around it. A seed fell on it from a tree above. The seed grew and fed on, among other things also the decomposed tissue paper, until it became big enough to be marked and cut and was sent to the paper-mill??????..
When did ?time? begin and end, was it when natures building blocks were joined in the form of a tree or a tissue paper, and when did ?time? end?

Time has never been created, and it does not exist. It is just our concept of it that exists. Time is actually merely a measure that we put on changes.
Sorry for the side-track! This was not the main issue here, but maybe it goes to show that we may perceive things as real when they are not.

Best regards

Ali Omar

unknownuser

Greetings Ali Omar,

Thanks for your replies?

Dear Apple Pie,

What hinders you from looking into verse 33.40 yourself, as you, according to yourself, are ?more cognizant of Quran?ic scripture than most Muslims??

As you seem reluctant, I must draw the conclusion that the verse states what I have already said. But then again, your overall statement seems baseless, although I do not like to conclude with such an assumption.

Here?let me get you started?

Please show us Islam?s ?prophet??..and how he's supposed to be a ?prophet??.

Your ?Koranic? evidence is probably evidence to you but I can not find it, even though I am trying hard, and still re-reading what you suggested.
I must commend you on the nice pictures, though, but your conclusions are very far-fetched, from what I can see, but I keep my hopes up, and continue vigorously and haven?t given up yet.
You draw attention to the name of Chapters. These are not part of God?s message. (just for your information)

Specifics?please?.

It would be interesting to know how you came to the conclusion that I don?t have any understanding of Arabic.

It?s pretty clear from your posts?

By the way, how do you know what my mother-tongue is?

It?s not Arabic?

Also, why are you so unwilling to assist me in my search for more knowledge?

We are all here to learn from each other.

It would help if you put some effort into your replies?

I do not need conjecture, which is found in abundance many other places. I hope to have tangible facts, or at least indices pointing towards a logical deduction.
You give very little of that, why? When you know the Qur?an better than most ?Muslims?, you must be a fountain of knowledge, please do not be stingy!

Great?

Again?.what specifically is bothering you?..?

I have studied what you have explained but am still at loss. In order to get Sura 86 to fit into your picture, you assume too many things that are not there, many of them mentioned in the answers you have already received from others.

Care to give specific examples?blanket generalization means nothing?

One thing that is beyond doubt is that you assume the Bible (whichever version you are holding) is divine.

The Holy Bible is divinely inspired, yes.

The Koran is not.

Therefore it would be of interest to know exactly which version do you use?

I hold to the canonized 66 books?

Was the original of it written before, or after the Qur?an?

Before, just as the authors who penned the Koran, confirmed for us?

Where can I find the original of it?

The extant manuscripts can be ?googled? from the web?

The reason for asking is that it looks like some of the words of your Bible have borrowed expressions from the Qur?an.

Now...that would be a neat trick?as the Holy Bible was canonized centuries BEFORE the Koran was even penned by its authors?

In addition, the authors of the Koran flat-out tell us that they copied the previous Jewish and Christian scriptures?

Unless you want to call into question the authors of the Koran? wink

This may well be connected to the fact that in the days when Islam was a World-power, many of the existing Bibles were actually written in Arabic and was thought to Christian students by Arabs. Whereas the Qur?an still exists in, mainly, the same form now, as it was before that era.

Since there are no extant Korans in existence anywhere in the known world, and the earliest dated Koran is a mere FRAGMENT of a sura dating to a century AFTER the supposed life and times of Islam?s ?prophet?, then your assertion would be impossible to prove as truth?

This is yet another destroyed Muslim myth from Islam 101?

Another thing that I have forgotten to comment on was your notion of ?time?. God never created ?time?, as ?time? does not exist, only changes without beginning and without end.
When something is coming into ?existence?, we say that time begins for this ?existence?, and time ends when it does not ?exist? any more.
This is not so, let us say that a human is borne, lives and dies. Time has not passed for this human, it has only gone through a number of changes, and if we could follow the track of this human before its birth we would go through many generations of people and end up in eternity.
When the same human being dies, changes continue for this human being until eternity. Time doesn?t begin or stop, it is just a concept we use because we can not grasp ?eternity?, and must, therefore, find a way to limit it.

A short story demonstrating a time-less ?cycle?

In a forest, a tree was marked and cut down. It went to a paper-mill.
The product that came out from there was tissue paper. A fellow went into the woods one day and got very sweat. He used the tissue paper, that came from the said tree, to wipe his face, and threw it away. Due to ?nature?s forces?, the tissue paper went through stages of decomposition until it became indistinguishable from the soil around it. A seed fell on it from a tree above. The seed grew and fed on, among other things also the decomposed tissue paper, until it became big enough to be marked and cut and was sent to the paper-mill??????..
When did ?time? begin and end, was it when natures building blocks were joined in the form of a tree or a tissue paper, and when did ?time? end?

Time has never been created, and it does not exist. It is just our concept of it that exists. Time is actually merely a measure that we put on changes.
Sorry for the side-track! This was not the main issue here, but maybe it goes to show that we may perceive things as real when they are not.

Great?.a Muslim philosopher?

Perhaps you could refute the most proven principles in all of physics for us?.SR & GR?

Then we will see who has the best evidence that time itself had a beginning??and that it will have an end?.just as stated in the Holy Bible?.

Thanks?

unknownuser

Hello Apple Pie,

Would you care to tackle those contradictions and errors from The Bible that I posted earlier in this thread? You never did answer any of my inquiries about those issues.

Care to try?

unknownuser

Start a new thread with your webpasted insecurities... lol