Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha

Mazhar

Yes.. The word is not perfect verb.. But he has seen for sure at least once.. You can refer the verses in chapter 12 King's vision and prisoners vision they all imperfect verb.. But it doesn't mean they never saw.. They have seen that's why they say about what they visioned.. But in Ibrahim's case also same imoerfect verb but Ibrahim used Manami as well... If you both take Ruya and mana as same then it is Okay... It could be even one time seem and they but they may say I see... Coz it may bother them or may make them curious.. Here satan can play a role.. Either take the what you saw directly without interpretations or wait until God clarify what in fact you visioned.. I don't think satan has the capacity to show visions in literal dreams while in sleep or in any other possible manner..

Thank you..

Note.. I forgot to mention.. We can't make the dream/vision come true but Allah only makes the dreams come true.. He only shows and He only make it became true if it meant to be a real dream.. But Ibrahim made himself.. And he made it become true and that too literally... No way... Just explore all visions in Quran.. Allah makes it come true and not the one who sees it..

Had he seen once, there was no need of using both the imperfect verbs.

Father is repetitively watching a dream doing same act that suggests he is going to sacrifice his son.
He did not execute his dream. Were he willing to do it, he could have done it on first watch even without bringing into the notice of his son.
Repetitive dream of same act forces him to take it seriously since the fundamentals of interpretation of dreams suggested it to be not of unconscious and passive nature.

jkhan

Had he seen once, there was no need of using both the imperfect verbs.

Father is repetitively watching a dream doing same act that suggests he is going to sacrifice his son.
He did not execute his dream. Were he willing to do it, he could have done it on first watch even without bringing into the notice of his son.
Repetitive dream of same act forces him to take it seriously since the fundamentals of interpretation of dreams suggested it to be not of unconscious and passive nature.

Yes.. I know brother that repetitive events are meant by imperfect verb in general .. But it doesn't necessarily be events but it can be states ..

In all occasions I mean Ibrahim, Yousuf's king and his two prisoners saw their dreams in repetition or not is mystry.. Just coz of imperfect verb usage we can't deduce thus.. Reason is the state of mind after seeing a dream which can lead you to say to various people at various points of time the same dream.. So using imperfect verb only befits.. Suppose you saw a dream 5 years before and whenever a dream topic is spoken you also remind others stating.. "I see in dream bla bla.. " or " I see Blaaa blaa bla" not necessary to say in perfect verb.. But if you have seen and if you inform anyone first time immediately then it should be in perfect verb like Yousuf informed Yaqub instantly ..
In my experience seeing the same identical dream repetitively is beyond probability unless anyone confirms what he saw.. Even it is his wording only..

So that's why I said repeatedly here means state of mind.. The dream has not faded off from the mind.. Though one doesn't see the dream again, the impression is left with him forever..
Imperfect verbs are not always events but states as well..
That'sy why I said Satan had a part to play with Ibrahim's dream.. Ibrahim has seen.. And the state of mind was hovering with it by the whisper of Satan coz Ibrahim has revealed the dream to someone and Satan heard it.. . Perhaps he would have seen long back when the son was even infant stage.. He would have even told to his wife about dream.. But when his son reached to a certain stage in age Ibrahim informs "I see in my sleep / dream... ". No need to say like he saw it last night in perfect verb..

But I don't say you are wrong in grammar point of view..

Note.. If word "used to' is used with imperfect verb then needless to say it was repetitive.. Like I "I used to see in my dream... "

Mazhar

//Yes.. I know brother that repetitive events are meant by imperfect verb in general .. But it doesn't necessarily be events but it can be states ..//

But the verb used is dynamic. It is not state or feeling of mind. The dynamic verbal sentence is the object of first verb. It therefore is not an instance of past. It is about regular phenomenon of seeing like that in dream.

jkhan

But the verb used is dynamic. It is not state or feeling of mind. The dynamic verbal sentence is the object of first verb. It therefore is not an instance of past. It is about regular phenomenon of seeing like that in dream.

Well... The point is about sacrifice not about Ibrahim has seen or is repetitively seeing... In whichever way one applies, the meaning of AzbaahuKa won't change.... Even the word Azbaahuka is imperfect verb.. If one takes it as physical sacrifice it would mean "Ibrahim is seeing in his dream sacrificing his son.. " right?

Would that mean he repetitively sacrificing? No.. Only one time one can sacrifice a life.. Though azhabuka is imperfect verb sacrificing cannot be repetitive..
So logically brother Mazhar.. If "Araah" is seeing repetitively then Azbah also sacrificing repetitively.. isn't that so..
So brother.. This imperfect verb can be used in past continuous tense and present tense why not, and even future tense.. Agree?

Anyway topic is not about imperfect verb here but about sacrifice or dedication... Let's stick with that... But I do understand with your comment you take it as sacrificing..

Mazhar

Well... The point is about sacrifice not about Ibrahim has seen or is repetitively seeing... In whichever way one applies, the meaning of AzbaahuKa won't change.... Even the word Azbaahuka is imperfect verb.. If one takes it as physical sacrifice it would mean "Ibrahim is seeing in his dream sacrificing his son.. " right?

Would that mean he repetitively sacrificing? No.. Only one time one can sacrifice a life.. Though azhabuka is imperfect verb sacrificing cannot be repetitive..
So logically brother Mazhar.. If "Araah" is seeing repetitively then Azbah also sacrificing repetitively.. isn't that so..
So brother.. This imperfect verb can be used in past continuous tense and present tense why not, and even future tense.. Agree?

Anyway topic is not about imperfect verb here but about sacrifice or dedication... Let's stick with that... But I do understand with your comment you take it as sacrificing..

It is verbatim quote of a statement made by a person. A reading about dreams and their interpretation will make the point clear and use of imperfect verb.

Repetitive dream of same act forces him to take it seriously since the fundamentals of interpretation of dreams suggested it to be not of unconscious and passive nature.
He places it before his son to know his perception.
The son interprets it as Command of Allah the Exalted and expresses it in such manner indicating that the Father also had arrived to same conclusion.

This Frame Ayah 100-113 is a Narrative. Narrative is a Factual Recount. Narrative texts have to do with real-world events and time. The purposes of narrative may be to inform, to persuade and/or to correct the record, rectify the falsities gleaned by people from the Epistemology of Testimony. The main structural components of a narrative are the orientation, the complication and the resolution, and may include a concluding statement or comment in order to sum up the message.

Narrative writing uses time as its deep structure. Language features of narrative text are

Adverb of time.

Past Tense is used except in conversations.

Time conjunction (when, then, thereat, suddenly, etc)

Specific character. The character of the episode is specific, not general.

Action verbs. A verb that shows an action.

Direct speech. It is to make the episode lively.

The vocabulary is usually everyday language, depending on the subject matter.

jkhan

It is verbatim quote of a statement made by a person. A reading about dreams and their interpretation will make the point clear and use of imperfect verb.

Repetitive dream of same act forces him to take it seriously since the fundamentals of interpretation of dreams suggested it to be not of unconscious and passive nature.
He places it before his son to know his perception.
The son interprets it as Command of Allah the Exalted and expresses it in such manner indicating that the Father also had arrived to same conclusion.

This Frame Ayah 100-113 is a Narrative. Narrative is a Factual Recount. Narrative texts have to do with real-world events and time. The purposes of narrative may be to inform, to persuade and/or to correct the record, rectify the falsities gleaned by people from the Epistemology of Testimony. The main structural components of a narrative are the orientation, the complication and the resolution, and may include a concluding statement or comment in order to sum up the message.

Narrative writing uses time as its deep structure. Language features of narrative text are

Adverb of time.

Past Tense is used except in conversations.

Time conjunction (when, then, thereat, suddenly, etc)

Specific character. The character of the episode is specific, not general.

Action verbs. A verb that shows an action.

Direct speech. It is to make the episode lively.

The vocabulary is usually everyday language, depending on the subject matter.

I don't know where you taking me to... Lol. Verses are very clear no need to compel and constrain yourself in that manner.. It's just all about word sacrifice... Isn't it?? Did he attempt to physically sacrifice or something else?.. Just simply solve it within the verses, and you are done..
Just let the train run on the track.. Quran is simple.. Approach simply... Don't let it mesmerisingly strenuous.. I don't see a concrete or constructive answer in your reply unfortunately .. Splitting hair is meaningless.. Sorry to say but Don't beat around the bush....

Just let us know your translations of verses 37101-113 ...i think we can deduce something better than this..

Thank brother Mazhar..

Mazhar

I don't know where you taking me to... Lol. Verses are very clear no need to compel and constrain yourself in that manner.. It's just all about word sacrifice... Isn't it?? Did he attempt to physically sacrifice or something else?.. Just simply solve it within the verses, and you are done..
Just let the train run on the track.. Quran is simple.. Approach simply... Don't let it mesmerisingly strenuous.. I don't see a concrete or constructive answer in your reply unfortunately .. Splitting hair is meaningless.. Sorry to say but Don't beat around the bush....

Just let us know your translations of verses 37101-113 ...i think we can deduce something better than this..

Thank brother Mazhar..

I am only emphasizing that in academic we learn how to read a non-fiction book. Unfortunately we start talking about Qur'an without reading it by academic discipline and start giving it meanings which appeal to our passion (which we falsely think reason).
Translation and morphological and syntactic analysis

https//haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.%20Individual%20Ayaat/037/037/037.100-113.htm

jkhan

I am only emphasizing that in academic we learn how to read a non-fiction book. Unfortunately we start talking about Qur'an without reading it by academic discipline and start giving it meanings which appeal to our passion (which we falsely think reason).
Translation and morphological and syntactic analysis

https//haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.%20Individual%20Ayaat/037/037/037.100-113.htm

Thank you for taking your time to respond with your up to date translations of the concerned verses..

Well.. What to say.. Better say no comments...

One thing I realized is you say one thing and do one thing... You know why I say this to your face... It is coz you were emphasising with imperfect verb and its usage though it is a minute matter in my perception taking into consideration the verse, but you have brought additional words and imaginations to your translations... That's horrendous translation... I thought I would get something which has absolute meaning..
At least you got it as slaughter when it comes to boy... But it is like a building without foundation..

May Allah guide you ... Guidance from Allah and self approaching in compulsion towards guidance has huge difference... Guidance is a mercy which in facts satisfies hearts..

Thank you ..

Mazhar

Thank you for taking your time to respond with your up to date translations of the concerned verses..

Well.. What to say.. Better say no comments...

One thing I realized is you say one thing and do one thing... You know why I say this to your face... It is coz you were emphasising with imperfect verb and its usage though it is a minute matter in my perception taking into consideration the verse, but you have brought additional words and imaginations to your translations... That's horrendous translation... I thought I would get something which has absolute meaning..
At least you got it as slaughter when it comes to boy... But it is like a building without foundation..

May Allah guide you ... Guidance from Allah and self approaching in compulsion towards guidance has huge difference... Guidance is a mercy which in facts satisfies hearts..

Thank you ..

Thanks. Guidance from Allah the Exalted is only through the Book, Qur'an. So we have to study the Book not by our own wishes but strictly according to the diction and grammar of the book. Else is mere passion.

Mazhar

In the entire thread what was the most annoying and ridiculous, it was alleging Satan deluded the exalted Messenger, declared and chosen as Friend by Allah the Exalted. While Satan had himself pronounced he will try delude every body except the Chosen Subjects of Allah, the Messengers.

jkhan

Thanks. Guidance from Allah the Exalted is only through the Book, Qur'an. So we have to study the Book not by our own wishes but strictly according to the diction and grammar of the book. Else is mere passion.

I absolutely do not agree any of above.. First of all you didn't get what guidance is... Guidance is not merely from book.. Not at all.. Of course Quran is full of guidance written in it.. But Quran won't guide anyone.. Allah guides... Just coz taking dictionary and grammar one won't get guided... That's the worst one can think of... God should guide him to choose what is right even from Quran... Reading and knowing is not guidance but approaching the truth can only be with guidance of Allah.. Everyone can choose any meaning to a word and comply with grammar and it doesn't mean it is guidance.. Author has written the verses and it has sheer meaning when author was writing it and if one fails to realize what author meant then he has not read the genuine book what author wrote but he fabricated a frame out of the book..

Further to Quran is the only guidance.. Come on.. No way.. 90 % of guidance is shown in built.. God says look at the camel how it is created.. Quran doesn't teaches us how it is created but we have to camels characteristics for that one needs knowledge and wisdom.. So. He realized why Quran says to see how camel is created.. Nature is God's creation.. And full of guidance.. Quran enhances the state of mind of a person and perhaps he can get convinced... First one need to be concious(thaqwa).. Then only guidance can even reach him.. that's why God says Quran guides to those who are concious... So state of conciousness is already a guidance from Allah and such concious people use Quran as a tool to get convinced their conciousness...

Thank you..

jkhan

In the entire thread what was the most annoying and ridiculous, it was alleging Satan deluded the exalted Messenger, declared and chosen as Friend by Allah the Exalted. While Satan had himself pronounced he will try delude every body except the Chosen Subjects of Allah, the Messengers.

Of course Satan alluded Ibrahim and he alluded anyone on this earth... Just you don't read Satans mind. Lol. He indeed meant who are destined to Janna when he said except few... Everyone who enters Janna also deluded by Satan at various points but those believers indeed realize immediately... You think satan is exempted from reaching to Messengers or prophets and real believers ... He took respite in order he can send astray people. But he will be successful if he in fact sends them astray for life time... Everyone on this earth has erred and it means satan got the grip over them when they err... Musa is chosen one... Didn't he kill a person? No one kills without Satans influence.. What musa indeed say after killing the person.. He immediately blamed Satan... When Ibrahim demolished it is indeed satanic work against a community and their choice of devotion...

Look not only satan but Allah also said ... Just read carefully the dialogue between Allah and iblees (1539 onwards) Yes.. Satan has no authority to send the saliheen astray but saliheen are not immune from Satan... But saliheen not FOLLOW SATAN forever.. Saliheen immediately realizes this is Satan who inspires us.. Just mind this.. Everyone who enters Janna one day, has been duped by Satan in their life at certain point so they erred but they reformed and they kept away satanic evil actions continuously and seeking forgiveness.. Don't assign purity to human. No one is pure... You are taking the verse as if only those chosen one will enter janna and they were flawless coz Satan never touched them with whispers.. Remember behind every blunder of believers Satan plays a role...
Even Ibrahim to say the Sun is my Lord at least for few hours is indeed whispers of Satan but Ibrahim didn't listen to stand whispers but he approached seeking guidance of Allah..

Everyone errs and that means Satans influences but those who err reform are real Ibadi what Allah meant in great feud.. God didn't send people who are flawless to earth to be tested.. That's ridiculous for that matter..

Have you not erred bro..? Your heart knows...dont you like to enter janna.. So if you have reformed, are you not Ibadi of Allah in positive sense.. So.. Isn't this what SATAN said except your real Ibadi and isn't this what Allah also said you have no authority my real Ibadi..

Just comprehend quran in real sense rather than cooking too much with grammar... Just choose right meaning of a word that solves all issues even grammar.. Just the word and ita true meaning matters.. For example.. Zaka = what in Quran.. Just get the meaning right of every word so impulsively all grammar will be in line with it... If word itself goes wrong what is the point of grammar.. Does it make sense..????

jkhan

In the entire thread what was the most annoying and ridiculous, it was alleging Satan deluded the exalted Messenger, declared and chosen as Friend by Allah the Exalted. While Satan had himself pronounced he will try delude every body except the Chosen Subjects of Allah, the Messengers.

My translation is in the link if you wish to reflect...

https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9612311.20

Thank you... We all seek guidance towards ultimate goal alone ... Let truth prevail whoever speaks it....

Mazhar

Of course Satan alluded Ibrahim and he alluded anyone on this earth... Just you don't read Satans mind. Lol. He indeed meant who are destined to Janna when he said except few... Everyone who enters Janna also deluded by Satan at various points but those believers indeed realize immediately... You think satan is exempted from reaching to Messengers or prophets and real believers ... He took respite in order he can send astray people. But he will be successful if he in fact sends them astray for life time... Everyone on this earth has erred and it means satan got the grip over them when they err... Musa is chosen one... Didn't he kill a person? No one kills without Satans influence.. What musa indeed say after killing the person.. He immediately blamed Satan... When Ibrahim demolished it is indeed satanic work against a community and their choice of devotion...

Look not only satan but Allah also said ... Just read carefully the dialogue between Allah and iblees (1539 onwards) Yes.. Satan has no authority to send the saliheen astray but saliheen are not immune from Satan... But saliheen not FOLLOW SATAN forever.. Saliheen immediately realizes this is Satan who inspires us.. Just mind this.. Everyone who enters Janna one day, has been duped by Satan in their life at certain point so they erred but they reformed and they kept away satanic evil actions continuously and seeking forgiveness.. Don't assign purity to human. No one is pure... You are taking the verse as if only those chosen one will enter janna and they were flawless coz Satan never touched them with whispers.. Remember behind every blunder of believers Satan plays a role...
Even Ibrahim to say the Sun is my Lord at least for few hours is indeed whispers of Satan but Ibrahim didn't listen to stand whispers but he approached seeking guidance of Allah..

Everyone errs and that means Satans influences but those who err reform are real Ibadi what Allah meant in great feud.. God didn't send people who are flawless to earth to be tested.. That's ridiculous for that matter..

Have you not erred bro..? Your heart knows...dont you like to enter janna.. So if you have reformed, are you not Ibadi of Allah in positive sense.. So.. Isn't this what SATAN said except your real Ibadi and isn't this what Allah also said you have no authority my real Ibadi..

Just comprehend quran in real sense rather than cooking too much with grammar... Just choose right meaning of a word that solves all issues even grammar.. Just the word and ita true meaning matters.. For example.. Zaka = what in Quran.. Just get the meaning right of every word so impulsively all grammar will be in line with it... If word itself goes wrong what is the point of grammar.. Does it make sense..????

Linguist D. A. Wilkins (1972) has the famous line "Without grammar very little can be conveyed, without vocabulary nothing can be conveyed."

jkhan

Linguist D. A. Wilkins (1972) has the famous line "Without grammar very little can be conveyed, without vocabulary nothing can be conveyed."

Everyone knows that.. Isn't it.. That's why kids find hard at school even their own language ..
But matter here is not about that.. Words and its true meaning... All controversies in meaning of words... As I said earlier if the meaning of words are shrewdly twisted, then what is the use grammar.. Just answer to that... You love beating around the bush.. Don't you.. Lol..

Mazhar

Since some assertions are patently erroneous and misleading for those who do not know the genealogy and operating system of Arabic, and many are there who assign meanings that associate not with the source words; I consider it necessary to explain the most important aspect of this episode.

Those who do (يُلْحِدُونَ) this are forewarned.

A transitive word needs an object to complete the statement.
The object is usually a single word.
But Arabic also uses a whole verbal sentence in the meaning of object. Firstly that sentence is analysed on its own structure and then is interpreted as Verbal Noun as object for the verb.

The object of imperfect verb أَرَىٰ is أَنِّیۤ أَذۡبَحُكَ

When we wrangle only to stick what we said earlier we miss many things in the source text. The verb like particle أن renders the following verb in subjunctive meanings.

The subjunctive as a concept in grammar refers, in general, to that which is uncertain or related to emotion. Often it is used for things which are sought, desired, or feared, but which are not necessarily realized.

Mazhar

Pertinent Question

What made the son to conclude that it is a command which is being given to his father?

Speculation? Or logical inference drawn from Father's statement?

jkhan

Since some assertions are patently erroneous and misleading for those who do not know the genealogy and operating system of Arabic, and many are there who assign meanings that associate not with the source words; I consider it necessary to explain the most important aspect of this episode.

Those who do (يُلْحِدُونَ) this are forewarned.

A transitive word needs an object to complete the statement.
The object is usually a single word.
But Arabic also uses a whole verbal sentence in the meaning of object. Firstly that sentence is analysed on its own structure and then is interpreted as Verbal Noun as object for the verb.

The object of imperfect verb أَرَىٰ is أَنِّیۤ أَذۡبَحُكَ

When we wrangle only to stick what we said earlier we miss many things in the source text. The verb like particle أن renders the following verb in subjunctive meanings.

The subjunctive as a concept in grammar refers, in general, to that which is uncertain or related to emotion. Often it is used for things which are sought, desired, or feared, but which are not necessarily realized.

Be satisfied with what you do...
I am happy with guidance of Allah...

Thank you ....

jkhan

Pertinent Question

What made the son to conclude that it is a command which is being given to his father?

Speculation? Or logical inference drawn from Father's statement?

You have concluded.. Not son.. Son never said he concluded it is a command.. Son said " carry out / execute what is enjoined / commanded..... So son only says the basic coz Ibrahim said he is seeing sacrificing him and asking his suggestion... So rightly said by son though he was a kid, carry out what is commanded... Every believe has to carry out what is commanded / enjoined on them.. That's the characteristic of a believer..but son not questioned father on the authenticity of what he was about to carry out.. Son trusted Ibrahim coz he was a prophetic messenger and Ibrahim was duped by Satan..

Thank you...

Mazhar

Passion have no limit, they keep veiling the intellect.

Father said to him he sees in dream that he is about to slaughter you.

Did he opine it is what he is being commanded?

Son says do as you are being commanded.

What was in those words that the son is taking it as command of Allah to his father? Was it subtly implied in the statement of father?