Quran's shariah and it's applicability
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What you would say is 'spoils of war', I would understand as 'additional benefits'.
It makes sense to me with the explanations provided...
Good for you Nadia, but I am not convinced by the arguments. If it means "Spoils of War", there is nothing wrong in translating as "spoils of war" but don't try to be creative and translate it to something that does not make sense because you don't want to translate as "spoils of war" because of modern day sensibilities...
The business of selling the London Bridge (an actual scam in history) would have been a success if they had customers like this.
Count Victor Lustig sold the Eiffel tower twice
Oh Nadia, how is that anyway related having the FREEDOM to SPEAK YOUR MIND? How is that related to PERSONAL LIBERTY?
Regards,
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Peace Lotetree,
If it means "Spoils of War", there is nothing wrong in translating as "spoils of war"
Thats what the posts have been about...the word war is NOT there, people are trying to interpret it to see how it fits without putting in something which is NOT there...
Oh Nadia, how is that anyway related having the FREEDOM to SPEAK YOUR MIND? How is that related to PERSONAL LIBERTY?
roll I was telling mq that the eiffel tower was sold twice for great gobs of cash, about human gullibility...are you trying to tell me i was saying something different then? That somehow i was trying to relate it to LADY LIBERTY and KEEPING THE TORCH ALOFT? Get a grip my friend...let's not get carried away here with a tad too much zealousness...
In retrospect, just the fact that you had to ask me "how is that anyway related" should have been the first clue...
Regards,
Nadia -
Peace Lotetree,
If it means "Spoils of War", there is nothing wrong in translating as "spoils of war"
Thats what the posts have been about...the word war is NOT there, people are trying to interpret it to see how it fits without putting in something which is NOT there...
I am not convinced. Rashad Khalifa, the Great Hadiths and Sunnah rejector, and the native Arabic translator, translated it as spoils of war. And he knew more about Quranic Arabic than the rest. No Nadia, I am not convinced. Chasing after root words can allow us to be very creative with the translations. But I wait for Edip Yuksel Reformist Translation of the Quran to be persuaded on this..
This is the literal translation
Literal They ask/question you about the spoils/gifts . Say "The spoils/gifts (are) to God and the messenger, so fear and obey God and correct/repair that what is between you, and obey God and His messenger, if you were believing."
Gift does not make sense at all but the spoils does. And spoils only makes sense in the context of war as Rashad and others understood it. But I will see how Edip Yuksel tries to translate this...
I was telling mq that the eiffel tower was sold twice for great gobs of cash, about human gullibility...are you trying to tell me i was saying something different then?
Sorry Nadia I did not get your Great. Pardon me -)
Regards,
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Lote-Tree is right. This place is FREE-minds. We are then free to be irrational. Of course we are.
Im very surprised LT isnt a sunni. He talks about RK, 'the great hadith and sunnah rejector' as if that fact alone makes one infallible in translating al-quraan. This is a non-sequietur indeed.
I've already asked LT to see RK's rendition of 4/3 in which the phrase 'thier mothers' was interpolated into the verse, but of course, true to form, whatever doesn't fit LT's mindset will immediately be rejected.
Since LT considers my rendition to be 'reformist' and 'creative', I then invite him to answer the following questions regarding interpretation. We will see how systematically he thinks, insha Allah.
LT, if you please
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Does al-quraan have a set method of interpretation?
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If so, what are some of the principles which one can employ to arrive at a correct interpretation?
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Kindly tell me, what method did YOU employ to verify the interpretation of 'spoils of war'. Unless the Quranic principle of verification (17/36) has become too morally unadvanced for you, I guess you must need some method of verification. Kindly enlighten us.,
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Read what FREE-MINDS.ORG is all about before you interpret it your way. Anyways, there is something missing in it though, i.e. the fact that the quran is used as the criterion. I think the site maintainers should include that.
Thats a good one mate! Read FREE-MINDS before you interpret it! -)
Free Minds is FREE MINDS - comprehend? If you abdicate YOUR FREE MIND to scritpure then it is not FREE MINDS is it?You don't seem to understand, do you? You are just blabing for the sake it! I am quite sure you are going to blab again in response to this. Or else surprise me.
and one more thing IT INVITES PEOPLE OF ALL FAITHS INCLUDING ATHEISTS! - DUH!
Yeah it invites all faiths including athiests, but to what? DUH! Read again and don't just blab.
You must QUESTION EVERYTHING FOR YOU TO BE FREE-MINDS!
And who the hell are you to tell me this? If I didn't question, then I would follow any Tom, Dick or Harry, or I would start worshiping you!
Anwar Azim
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Hello LoteTree,
FREEDOM and PERSONAL LIBERTY not important to you?
Don't you like the FREEDOM to be what YOU want to be instead of people telling you WHAT TO BE?
Are you getting sick of FREEDOM?
How did you figure out such derogations? Quite shocking when it comes to your intuitions or perhaps you misplaced your reasoning.
You can speak all you want about Freedom and Personal Liberty, but how do you live by such principles? Aren?t there not rules and standards that governs everyone?s lives? If yes, then who is governing you to live by such standards? If not, then you couldn?t possibly be living in an uninhabited jungle or an unknown planet without any bearings whatsoever. I sincerely doubt that you understand the gist of Freedom or Personal Liberty when it comes to simply Speaking Your Mind out.
What does NUCLEAR techonology to do with FREEDOM TO SPEAK YOUR MIND and YOUR PERSONAL LIBERTY to SPEAK YOUR MIND?
Again, you lost your reasoning power. On both occasions you nit-picked what I wrote in my previous post, hence your incomplete understanding. Perhaps I should have posted the other half of my previous post on another thread which references ?evolving?; my bad.
Here?s what you wrote much earlier
Well, Khalil, you might not see "God" in my face I am afraid, unless if you consider a Yoda look alike "beautiful" As for myself I don't classify people as ugly or beautiful when I meet them. I will always meet people as individuals. But I can say Angelina Jolie is beautiful though I have not met her.
A defamed statement.
On another forum, here?s what you wrote
You give out blankets so that God will pat you on the back for doing a good deed. For you giving about blankets is about reward. And as I said it is about Ego satisfaction. Can you ever conceive giving without expecting a reward? The Apple tree in your garden provides you with apples - what does it expect in return?
Perhaps you didn?t care to contemplate on what the tree expects in return? Think!
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Lote-Tree is right. This place is FREE-minds. We are then free to be irrational. Of course we are.
Hey mquran, belief in a God is not rational. Read philosophy! -) How could you say this after you said he don't trust your REASON? If you don't trust your reason how did you come to reject hadiths!
As for your translation you have no credibility for me since you don't trust your REASON. But I wait for Edip Yuksel Reformist Translation for me to be persuaded.
Regards,
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Yeah it invites all faiths including athiests, but to what? DUH! Read again
and don't just blab....erm to discuss GOD and RELIGION FREELY, duh!!! -)
You must QUESTION EVERYTHING FOR YOU TO BE FREE-MINDS!
And who the hell are you to tell me this? If I didn't question, then I would follow any Tom, Dick or Harry, or I would start worshiping you!
Anwar AzimI told you so that WE CAN ALL FREELY SAY "And who the hell are you to tell me this?" -)
Regards,
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Hey mquran, belief in a God is not rational. Read philosophy! How could you say this after you said he don't trust your REASON? If you don't trust your reason how did you come to reject hadiths!
Philosophy ? Is that the thing with Plato, Aristotle etc ?
Sorry, but allow me to articulate my position so as to remove confusion, if possible.
Al-Quraan is very clear about USING reason (if, then therefore, problem solving)..it says those who dont use it are the worst of beasts (8/22) and those in hell will complain about NOT using it (67/10)
So I try to be rational where and when I can.
However, I eschew rationalISM. Rationalism is where reason becomes the be-all and end-all of one's criteria. Musa had the same problem, he was questioning Allah's servant who was given knowledge from His presence (18/60-82), using his limited reasoning.
So yes, rational but not rationalIST.
As for your translation you have no credibility for me since you don't trust your REASON. But I wait for Edip Yuksel Reformist Translation for me to be persuaded.
That's fine, DON'T give me credibility. I have no problem with that. However, I am bringing the question now to YOUR doorstep, sir. Don't forget, you asserted that Al-Quraan talks about spoils and is therefore morally unevolved to meet your superior standards.
My questions again
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Does al-quraan have a set method of interpretation?
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If so, what are some of the principles which one can employ to arrive at a correct interpretation?
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Kindly tell me, what method did YOU employ to verify the interpretation of 'spoils of war'. Unless the Quranic principle of verification (17/36) has become too morally unadvanced for you, I guess you must need some method of verification. Kindly enlighten us.,
These questions, if you're unable to answer them, simply prove that your slogans of '21st century morally-advanced human' is nothing but bunkum. For all your calls to rationalism, you can't even allow your method to be interrogated. Unless of course you have no method and you simply choose to the worst possible (if also the most irrational one) just to denounce al-quraan. Sadly, al-quraan is a protected book. Even the methodology of interpretation is protected....
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Hello Danish,
You can speak all you want about Freedom and Personal Liberty, but how do you live by such principles?
Hey?...erm...Quite happily Danish -)
Look Danish I have lived under an oppressive government where my freedom to speak my mind was denied. If you think my faith in FREEDOM and PERSONAL LIBERTY is misplaced, then please put foward your argument to convince me that I should go back and live under the oppressive government that I have left behind. If you can convince me then I would happily go back and live there -)I sincerely doubt that you understand the gist of Freedom or Personal Liberty when it comes to simply Speaking Your Mind out.
I understand enough Danish. That is why I CHOOSE live in a liberal society where I have the liberty to speak my mind. But if you understand FREEDOM and PERSONAL LIBERTY more than me then Danish please teach me! I will be a willing student.
What does NUCLEAR techonology to do with FREEDOM TO SPEAK YOUR MIND and YOUR PERSONAL LIBERTY to SPEAK YOUR MIND?
Again, you lost your reasoning power.
Help me then Danish to regain my reasoning power...
Here?s what you wrote much earlier
Well, Khalil, you might not see "God" in my face I am afraid, unless if you consider a Yoda look alike "beautiful" As for myself I don't classify people as ugly or beautiful when I meet them. I will always meet people as individuals. But I can say Angelina Jolie is beautiful though I have not met her.
A defamed statement.
Oh Danish that thread is written in jest mate!! -)
Do you not understand any of the humour that been posted in the humour thread?On another forum, here?s what you wrote
You give out blankets so that God will pat you on the back for doing a good deed. For you giving about blankets is about reward. And as I said it is about Ego satisfaction. Can you ever conceive giving without expecting a reward? The Apple tree in your garden provides you with apples - what does it expect in return?
Perhaps you didn?t care to contemplate on what the tree expects in return? Think!
Hey Danish why did not respond to that thread so that I would have given you an answer! -)
When I said "are you sick of freedom" Danish, I meant it as a jest. I did not mean to offend you. I thought you would have responded with humour too! but I guess you did not. So bow my head to that...
Regards,
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So I try to be rational where and when I can.
But you don't have any TRUST in your REASON!
However, I eschew rationalISM. Rationalism is where reason becomes the be-all and end-all of one's criteria. Musa had the same problem, he was questioning Allah's servant who was given knowledge from His presence (18/60-82), using his limited reasoning.
You have to exhaust all RATIONAL thinking mquran in your mind for you to have an INSIGHT into the nature of GOD and to gain some understanding of God, because GOD is beyond human reason.
My questions again
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Does al-quraan have a set method of interpretation?
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If so, what are some of the principles which one can employ to arrive at a correct interpretation?
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Kindly tell me, what method did YOU employ to verify the interpretation of 'spoils of war'. Unless the Quranic principle of verification (17/36) has become too morally unadvanced for you, I guess you must need some method of verification. Kindly enlighten us.,
Since you don't have any credibility for me, I will have to wait for Edip Yuksel's Reformist Translation of the Quran, for me to be convinced by any of the arguments you put forward. So wait and see...and then we will take it from there -)
Regards,
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But you don't have any TRUST in your REASON!
This is how my trust process works
It is part of the Mercy of God that thou dost deal gently with them Wert thou severe or harsh-hearted, they would have broken away from about thee so pass over (Their faults), and ask for (God's) forgiveness for them; and consult them in affairs (of moment). THEN WHEN YOU HAVE DECIDED, PUT YOUR TRUST IN ALLAH AND ALLAH LOVES THOSE WHO PUT THIER TRUST IN HIM (3/159)You have to exhaust all RATIONAL thinking mquran in your mind for you to have an INSIGHT into the nature of GOD and to gain some understanding of God, because GOD is beyond human reason.
God's ESSENCE is beyond human reason but His attributes aren't. If it was, then what is revelation for ?
Since you don't have any credibility for me, I will have to wait for Edip Yuksel's Reformist Translation of the Quran, for me to be convinced by any of the arguments you put forward. So wait and see...and then we will take it from there
Sorry, let me explain to you step by step, ok ?
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YOU used the normal translations and claimed that since Rashad is an Arab, he must be correct even though I have shown you his deliberate interpolation. That's how 'rational' you are.
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You then stood by the spoils of war interpretation.
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You are a rationalist human being.
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Therefore, in order for you to assert your views, YOU MUST HAVE PROOF. So tell your method ? How do you know all these guys are right?
Please don't accept my interpretation. It doesn't bother me in the least. I'm talking about YOUR INTERPRETATION here which you so kindly asserted and used to claim al-quraan was morally unadvanced. So tell us how you arrived at this interpretation.
However, I'm very sure that you cannot. I imagine that your approach is no different from Irshad Manji of 'muslimpeacenik' fame. I emailed her about 18 months ago, giving a critique of her interpretation of the Quran. Very funnily, even though she is vehement against Sunni orthodoxy, she is very uncritically accepting of Sunni interpretations of words like 'kufr' for example. So instead of wanting to implement Quranic internal principles, she'd rather accept Sunni and Orientalist discourse, just like you. Your eagerness to be grateful to the powers that be for your liberty has blinded you, in my opinion. Lets not forget that all good things come from Allah and human beings are very inconsistent in thier behaviour. It would be better for you to trust Allah.
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This is how my trust process works
It is part of the Mercy of God that thou dost deal gently with them Wert thou severe or harsh-hearted, they would have broken away from about thee so pass over (Their faults), and ask for (God's) forgiveness for them; and consult them in affairs (of moment). THEN WHEN YOU HAVE DECIDED, PUT YOUR TRUST IN ALLAH AND ALLAH LOVES THOSE WHO PUT THIER TRUST IN HIM (3/159)That is good for you. But I question everything. I have always questioned everything. If you STOP questioning the very thing you live your life by then there is no chance of intellectual or spiritual growth in my view. You might aswell believe that the Earth is FLAT and is supported on back of a GIANT turtle because you have your Trust in God! Trust in God does not mean that you should STOP questioning that Trust!
God's ESSENCE is beyond human reason but His attributes aren't. If it was, then what is revelation for ?
You tell me mquran what is the revelation for? To follow rules? or a GUIDE to understanding GOD? And how do you become certain that the revelation is from God and not words of a fallible human being? That is the crux of the matter mquran isn't it? Scritpure came through a human being and therefore you can't be sure if it is from God. You either have faith in it or you don't. There is no way of getting around this.
Sorry, let me explain to you step by step, ok ?
I said I am not interested in this until I see Edip Yuksel Reformist Translations! Then we will take from there. OK?
Your eagerness to be grateful to the powers that be for your liberty has blinded you, in my opinion.
I have my HEAD STILL attached to my body mquran and for that I AM GRATEFUL FOR LIBERTY! If I continued to live under that oppressive government, my HEAD and BODY would have been floating separately in some river...each finding its own way to God!!!
However despicable FREEDOM and LIBERTY is to you, I AM INDEED GRATEFUL FOR HAVING THOSE! Amen!!!
It would be better for you to trust Allah.
I do mquran. I have so much TRUST in GOD that I have no fear of DEATH! That is why I have such a compassionate view of humanity. That is why I will always celebrate the best of humanity with pride and come to terms with the worst of humanity with understanding.
Though I do not have a FEAR OF DEATH mquran, but I do fear the pain of my head getting lopped off by a blunt sword by group of human beings, whose view of life, God, Religion I may happen to disaggree with! And I also fear of my HEAD and BODY being seprated from my family and friends in this life!!! That is why I CHOOSE to live in a liberal society!!!!
Regards,
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Peace Lotetree,
The question still stands unfortunately, the criteria for how you judge and/or accept what the quran reads as is still shrouded in the mists of acute mystery...first you claim it to be the more the better mentality, now it's changed to only if the translator is an arab/native speaker? Is this your criteria or is there some other yet again?
I have my HEAD STILL attached to my body mquran and for that I AM GRATEFUL FOR LIBERTY! If I continued to live under that oppressive government, my HEAD and BODY would have been floating separately in some river...each finding its own way to God!!!
You keep saying this in the most dramatic way possible...i would be interested in knowing exactly which government this is and more importantly what YOU did that got the people up in arms and running after you with pitchforks...
Regards,
Nadia -
Hello Nadia,
Peace Lotetree,
The question still stands unfortunately, the criteria for how you judge and/or accept what the quran reads as is still shrouded in the mists of acute mystery...As I said I am waiting for Edip Yuksels Reformist Translation. Then we will discuss this ok?
...importantly what YOU did that got the people up in arms and running after you with pitchforks...
FOR SPEAKING MY MIND FREELY! -)
Regards,
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That is good for you. But I question everything. I have always questioned everything. If you STOP questioning the very thing you live your life by then there is no chance of intellectual or spiritual growth in my view. You might aswell believe that the Earth is FLAT and is supported on back of a GIANT turtle because you have your Trust in God! Trust in God does not mean that you should STOP questioning that Trust!
LT, can you actually read in full? Or do you read the last 5 words of every reply I give ? 3/159 tells us that after consultation, we make a decision AND trust Allah. I have applied my reasoning and submitted myself to Allah.
and nowhere does Allah tell me the earth is flat. Please stop these pathetic, non-existent examples. They do you a disservice.
You tell me mquran what is the revelation for? To follow rules? or a GUIDE to understanding GOD? And how do you become certain that the revelation is from God and not words of a fallible human being? That is the crux of the matter mquran isn't it? Scritpure came through a human being and therefore you can't be sure if it is from God. You either have faith in it or you don't. There is no way of getting around this.
If you don't know the Quranic verification procedure, then why are you calling it scripture ? Don't believe in it and be frank about it. One thing though, on this forum, people ask questions. And slogan-babbling don't usually satisfy them.
I said I am not interested in this until I see Edip Yuksel Reformist Translations! Then we will take from there. OK?
So when Yuksel's 'reformist' translations come out, tell me, how will you verify it ? Or maybe because Yuksel's a Kurd or Turk, you'll believe in him just like you believed in Rashad ? Hehe...takes all sorts, doesnt it.
If you believe in Yuksels translation, why did you assert that spoils of war was correct ? How will you know if Yuksel is wrong and the others right ?
How does this square with your primacy of reasoning ?
Honestly, its very baffling how you carry on this discourse.
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I have applied my reasoning and submitted myself to Allah.
Thats good of you. I am very proud of you! -)
But I will continue questioning the very existence of my life as I have always done.and nowhere does Allah tell me the earth is flat. Please stop these pathetic, non-existent examples. They do you a disservice.
I did not claim it was! -)
One thing though, on this forum, people ask questions.
That is what I am doing! I am asking how can be sure scripture came from God! Is this not a question?
I said I am not interested in this until I see Edip Yuksel Reformist Translations! Then we will take from there. OK?
So when Yuksel's 'reformist' translations come out, tell me, how will you verify it ? Or maybe because Yuksel's a Kurd or Turk, you'll believe in him just like you believed in Rashad ? Hehe...takes all sorts, doesnt it.
He he -) do you not understand what I keep saying to you? I will wait Edip Yuksel Reformist Translation of the Quran - then we can discuss this fully. OK chap? Be a good sport.. -)
How does this square with your primacy of reasoning ?
Honestly, its very baffling how you carry on this discourse.It is baffling how you make sense to yourself mquran when you don't trust your own REASON let alone anyone elses! -)
Regards,
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Peace Lotetree,
As I said I am waiting for Edip Yuksels Reformist Translation. Then we will discuss this ok?
I don't suppose we will get an answer as to what your criteria is for verifying the quran...ok then.
Regards,
Nadia -
peace be upon you Lotetree,
the truth is that the average Arab speaker today is not much better off than the English speaker is in interpreting/translating the classical arabic of this reading (quran), the classical arabic of this reading (quran) is very different from the Arabic of today, thats why arabs still have to take classical arabic lessons to understand it, so Rashad being a native Arab doesn't give his translation any more credibility than mquran's does, also in his defense, mquran never said he doesn't use reason or doesn't trust it (he said he trusts in God more), you have been seeming to go off on an emotional tangent under this thread, my suggestion is to follow your own principles and reasonably verify mquran's translation rather than just judging it based on its differences from other translations or on mquran's character himself or on the validity of Edip Yuksel's translation if i might add
p.s.-his translations are right, i agree with them, so maybe if we get a lot of people to agree on them you will as well because it will be the view of the "collective human conciousness" lol
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Hi there LoteTree,
...my faith in FREEDOM and PERSONAL LIBERTY is misplaced,
Hmm, I thought so too.
I sincerely doubt that you understand the gist of Freedom or Personal Liberty when it comes to simply Speaking Your Mind out.
I understand enough Danish. That is why I CHOOSE live in a liberal society where I have the liberty to speak my mind. But if you understand FREEDOM and PERSONAL LIBERTY more than me then Danish please teach me! I will be a willing student.
All governments have set rules and standards by which one must abide by wherever you reside and in whatever you do, whether you like it or not, and that also includes house rules, work rules, school rules, street rules, forum rules, etc., etc. If you dishonor any of these rules, then taste the outcome. You cannot live by Freedom and Personal Liberty simply by Speaking Your Mind out and do what you please. That?s the gist of the matter implied.
What does NUCLEAR techonology to do with FREEDOM TO SPEAK YOUR MIND and YOUR PERSONAL LIBERTY to SPEAK YOUR MIND?
Again, you lost your reasoning power.
Help me then Danish to regain my reasoning power...
When it comes to nuclear warheads, your FREEDOM to SPEAK YOUR MIND and your PERSONAL LIBERTY doesn?t relate, but ?chopping heads and body parts? does. Nevertheless, if nuclear technology has nothing to do with FREEDOM TO SPEAK YOUR MIND and YOUR PERSONAL LIBERTY to SPEAK YOUR MIND, then how does chopping heads and body parts do. Are severing of heads and body parts performed only by swords and not by nuclear warheads and other methods. Do you realize your misplaced reasoning power I was referring to earlier? Regardless, my statement on earlier post pointed towards ?evolving? in relations to Freedom or Personal Liberty, hence your weakness in reasoning both ways. Here are your quotes
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Though I do not have a FEAR OF DEATH mquran, but I do fear the pain of my head getting lopped off by a blunt sword by group of human beings, whose view of life, God, Religion I may happen to disaggree with! And I also fear of my HEAD and BODY being seprated from my family and friends in this life!!! That is why I CHOOSE to live in a liberal society!!!!
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I have my HEAD STILL attached to my body mquran and for that I AM GRATEFUL FOR LIBERTY! If I continued to live under that oppressive government, my HEAD and BODY would have been floating separately in some river...each finding its own way to God!!!
Well, Khalil, you might not see "God" in my face I am afraid, unless if you consider a Yoda look alike "beautiful" As for myself I don't classify people as ugly or beautiful when I meet them. I will always meet people as individuals. But I can say Angelina Jolie is beautiful though I have not met her.
A defamed statement.
Oh Danish that thread is written in jest mate!! -)
Do you not understand any of the humour that been posted in the humour thread?I didn?t realize this was humour mate, my bad. lol
On another forum, here?s what you wrote
You give out blankets so that God will pat you on the back for doing a good deed. For you giving about blankets is about reward. And as I said it is about Ego satisfaction. Can you ever conceive giving without expecting a reward? The Apple tree in your garden provides you with apples - what does it expect in return?Perhaps you didn?t care to contemplate on what the tree expects in return? Think!
Hey Danish why did not respond to that thread so that I would have given you an answer! -)
And how is it that you bought about your answers here on this thread (above) to my post from another thread (Women as sex objects) LoteTree. Squirmy, perhaps! Anyhow, care to answer them regardless of which thread or forum it belongs.
When I said "are you sick of freedom" Danish, I meant it as a jest. I did not mean to offend you. I thought you would have responded with humour too! but I guess you did not. So bow my head to that...
Ok, once again LoteTree, I didn?t realize this was humour mate, my bad. lol In case I'm mistaken again, from now on I'll take your responses as humourous and laugh them out. wink
Regards.
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