Seeking Clarity on the Quran's Preservation Over Centuries
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peace Fusion, all,
Let us try a thought experiment
Let's say you are actually living at the time of prophet Muhammad and you are in the audience when the prophet himself is reciting to you Al Quran.
How do you know what is being said is Al Quran or how are you going to determine what this man is reciting before you is actually revelation from God?
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Peace Fusion.
Narratives are plenty and can differ like for example, quoteNineteen years after the Prophet Muhammad's death, during the reign of Khalifa `Uthman, a committee of scribes was appointed to make several copies of the Quran to be dispatched to the new Muslim lands. The copies were to be made from the original Quran which was written by Muhammad's hand.
This committee was supervised by
Uthman IbnAffaan,Ali Ibn Abi Taaleb, Zeid Ibn Thaabet, Ubayy Ibn Kaab,Abdullah Ibn Al-Zubair, Saeed Ibn Al-Aas, andAbdul Rahman Ibn Al-Haareth Ibn Heshaam. The Prophet, of course, had written the Quran in its chronological order of revelation , together with the necessary instructions to place every piece in its proper position. The last sura revealed in Medina was Sura 9. Only Sura 110, a very short sura, was revealed after Sura 9, in Mina.The committee of scribes finally came to Sura 9, and put it in its proper place. One of the scribes suggested adding a couple of verses to honor the Prophet. The majority of scribes agreed. `Ali was outraged. He vehemently maintained that the word of God, written down by the hand of His final prophet, must never be altered.
Ali's protest is documented in many references, but I cite and reproduce here the classic reference AL ITQAAN FEE 'ULUM AL QURAN by Jalaluddin Al-Suyuty, Al-Azhareyyah Press, Cairo, Egypt, 1318 AH, Page 59 .
Translation `Ali was asked "Why are you staying home?" He said, "Something has been added to the Quran, and I have pledged never to put on my street clothes, except for the prayer, until the Quran is restored."
The horrendous dimensions of this crime can be realized once we look at the consequences
Uthman was assassinated, andAli was installed as the fourth Khalifa.
A 50-year war erupted between the new Khalifa and his supporters on one side, and the Mohammedan distorters of the Quran on the other side.
Ali was martyred, and eventually his family, the prophet Muhammad's family, except for some women and children, were killed. The disaster culminated in the infamous Battle of Karbala, whereAli's son, Hussein, and his family were massacred.
The Muslims were deprived of the pure, unaltered, Quran for 1400 years.
The distorters of the Quran finally won the war, and the "official" history that came to us represented the victors' point of view. This apparent victory for God's enemies was, of course, in accordance with God's will. In just two decades after the Prophet's death, the idol worshipers who were defeated by the Prophet in the conquest of Mecca (632 AD) reverted to idolatry. Ironically, this time around their idol was the Prophet himself. Such idol worshipers obviously did not deserve to possess the pure Quran. Hence the blessed martyrdom of the true believers who tried to restore the Quran, and the apparent victory for the distorters of God's word.The first peace time ruler after this lengthy and disastrous war was Marwan Ibn Al Hakam (died 65 AH/684 AD). One of the first duties he performed was to destroy the original Quran, the one that was so scrupulously written by the Prophet's own hand, "fearing it might become the cause of NEW disputes" . The question an intelligent person must ask is "If the original Quran were identical to the Quran in circulation at that time, why did Marwan Ibn Al-Hakam have to destroy it?!"
Of course narratives remain just that and can only be confirmed as fact by evidence.
However there are many questions we can ask regarding the spread of false Islam
1- God s deen was not to be forced on people Why spread GOD s religion by the sword?
2- why was Qoran and hadiths not mixed up? Was this a coincidence? Was this a mistake by the rulers or was this in GOD s plan ?
3-What happened to the Muslims in history and does it fit with GOD s religion and its aim?
4- GOD s words about what the prophet will say " My Lord ,my people have abandoned Qoran" is this a true prediction ?It seems they preserved their nemesis and demise by leaving the Qoran well alone as if they had no idea that their fabrications and crimes were clearly written and prophesised in it.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
That's an excellent question, Wakas. I believe Good Logic has already provided an answer in his response on April 14, 2024. Subsequent discussions have primarily focused on the historical preservation aspects related to human agency.
Personally, I think that if I were to truly believe, I would consider several factors that don't typically apply to my current context. For instance, my cultural and spiritual surroundings would be significant. Furthermore, the message itself, which addresses social issues, justice, and ethical monotheism, would potentially ignite my curiosity and urge to discover the truth—motivating my belief that this Man and his message are indeed touched by divine intervention. However, more crucial than the message itself would be my personal observations of this man's life. Witnessing his day-to-day integrity, honesty, and how he conducts himself consistently would serve as one of the most compelling reasons to heed his words.
Similarly, when figures like Rashad Khalifa and Ghulam Ahmed Qadiyani were arguably portrayed as carrying forward God's message, it illustrates how people's reactions can vary based on their personal views and the historical context they find themselves in.
However, for my acceptance of the divine message to happen, I believe that one must inherently possess a certain goodness, as I think that God grants guidance (hidaya) to those who are deserving, those who already have a spark within them. I'm not sure how I would have been if I were born back then. I previously mentioned or commented somewhere that I believe it's more commendable for someone in modern times to believe in the message and stories of the Quran compared to someone who was present during the Prophet's time, for several reasons. Today, we have access to the complete, compiled text of the Quran, allowing us to study and analyze it thoroughly from various perspectives. Additionally, we can compare it with other religious texts, which adds more complexity to our understanding. Moreover, in today's world, we don't witness miracles or direct divine punishments like those described in ancient times, which seemingly wicked people escaping consequences, as GL explained in another post, now we are in a grace period until the Day of Judgement. Thus, believing in our times is more difficult and challenging than it would have been for those who lived during the Prophet's time. This is purely my own viewpoint.
Or as my good friend JKhan, who seems increasingly exasperated with me, often reminds me of my shortcomings -)
وَٱعْبُدْ رَبَّكَ حَتَّىٰ يَأْتِيَكَ ٱلْيَقِينُ
I think the intent here is death but i wish to read it like I will continue to search and search until I have the absolute faith about God and his message.
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Peace Fusion.
Narratives are plenty and can differ like for example, quoteNineteen years after the Prophet Muhammad's death, during the reign of Khalifa `Uthman, a committee of scribes was appointed to make several copies of the Quran to be dispatched to the new Muslim lands. The copies were to be made from the original Quran which was written by Muhammad's hand.
This committee was supervised by
Uthman IbnAffaan,Ali Ibn Abi Taaleb, Zeid Ibn Thaabet, Ubayy Ibn Kaab,Abdullah Ibn Al-Zubair, Saeed Ibn Al-Aas, andAbdul Rahman Ibn Al-Haareth Ibn Heshaam. The Prophet, of course, had written the Quran in its chronological order of revelation , together with the necessary instructions to place every piece in its proper position. The last sura revealed in Medina was Sura 9. Only Sura 110, a very short sura, was revealed after Sura 9, in Mina.The committee of scribes finally came to Sura 9, and put it in its proper place. One of the scribes suggested adding a couple of verses to honor the Prophet. The majority of scribes agreed. `Ali was outraged. He vehemently maintained that the word of God, written down by the hand of His final prophet, must never be altered.
Ali's protest is documented in many references, but I cite and reproduce here the classic reference AL ITQAAN FEE 'ULUM AL QURAN by Jalaluddin Al-Suyuty, Al-Azhareyyah Press, Cairo, Egypt, 1318 AH, Page 59 .
Translation `Ali was asked "Why are you staying home?" He said, "Something has been added to the Quran, and I have pledged never to put on my street clothes, except for the prayer, until the Quran is restored."
The horrendous dimensions of this crime can be realized once we look at the consequences
Uthman was assassinated, andAli was installed as the fourth Khalifa.
A 50-year war erupted between the new Khalifa and his supporters on one side, and the Mohammedan distorters of the Quran on the other side.
Ali was martyred, and eventually his family, the prophet Muhammad's family, except for some women and children, were killed. The disaster culminated in the infamous Battle of Karbala, whereAli's son, Hussein, and his family were massacred.
The Muslims were deprived of the pure, unaltered, Quran for 1400 years.
The distorters of the Quran finally won the war, and the "official" history that came to us represented the victors' point of view. This apparent victory for God's enemies was, of course, in accordance with God's will. In just two decades after the Prophet's death, the idol worshipers who were defeated by the Prophet in the conquest of Mecca (632 AD) reverted to idolatry. Ironically, this time around their idol was the Prophet himself. Such idol worshipers obviously did not deserve to possess the pure Quran. Hence the blessed martyrdom of the true believers who tried to restore the Quran, and the apparent victory for the distorters of God's word.The first peace time ruler after this lengthy and disastrous war was Marwan Ibn Al Hakam (died 65 AH/684 AD). One of the first duties he performed was to destroy the original Quran, the one that was so scrupulously written by the Prophet's own hand, "fearing it might become the cause of NEW disputes" . The question an intelligent person must ask is "If the original Quran were identical to the Quran in circulation at that time, why did Marwan Ibn Al-Hakam have to destroy it?!"
Of course narratives remain just that and can only be confirmed as fact by evidence.
However there are many questions we can ask regarding the spread of false Islam
1- God s deen was not to be forced on people Why spread GOD s religion by the sword?
2- why was Qoran and hadiths not mixed up? Was this a coincidence? Was this a mistake by the rulers or was this in GOD s plan ?
3-What happened to the Muslims in history and does it fit with GOD s religion and its aim?
4- GOD s words about what the prophet will say " My Lord ,my people have abandoned Qoran" is this a true prediction ?It seems they preserved their nemesis and demise by leaving the Qoran well alone as if they had no idea that their fabrications and crimes were clearly written and prophesised in it.
GOD bless you.
Peace.Thank you GL for your insightful post.
Please correct me.
From the narrative shared by you, it seems you are implying that the current copy of the Quran might not be the original as compiled during the time of Prophet Muhammad ??
Reason being you point out that there were disputes over additions to the text and subsequent political conflicts that led to changes in the way the Quran was transmitted and preserved. You also mentioned instances such as the destruction of what was claimed to be the original manuscript by Marwan Ibn Al Hakam to prevent further disputes, suggesting that the versions available today may differ from the very first compilation.If this is your own belief then how do you reconcile while you read the current Quran as you very well post verses from it most often.. how do you choose which ones you believe are part of the original quran and which ones not?
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Peace Fusion.
I have my solid proof that Qoran- Hafs version without surah 9 verses 128 and 129 for me- is mathematically composed. all its letters/words/ verses/surahs are locked . The master tablet GOD talks about.The law of preservation has to be tested. If a law is never tested to see if it holds then it might as well not exist.
In that case adding or taking away letters/ words/verses makes no difference since the tempering/change will become evident easily because the mathematical composition will break down.
Any narrative then, becomes irrelevant.
Also for me ,the messenger of the covenant has initiated with authorisation this mathematical composition and the preservation task is also ongoing guided by GOD and His soldiers that are following/guarding Qoran since the beginning.
My take on the Qoran I study and my opinion so far.Others may disagree, but I am satisfied with my checking and findings so far after my ongoing research.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace Fusion.
I have my solid proof that Qoran- Hafs version without surah 9 verses 128 and 129 for me- is mathematically composed. all its letters/words/ verses/surahs are locked . The master tablet GOD talks about.The law of preservation has to be tested. If a law is never tested to see if it holds then it might as well not exist.
In that case adding or taking away letters/ words/verses makes no difference since the tempering/change will become evident easily because the mathematical composition will break down.
Any narrative then, becomes irrelevant.
Also for me ,the messenger of the covenant has initiated with authorisation this mathematical composition and the preservation task is also ongoing guided by GOD and His soldiers that are following/guarding Qoran since the beginning.
My take on the Qoran I study and my opinion so far.Others may disagree, but I am satisfied with my checking and findings so far after my ongoing research.
GOD bless you.
Peace.Thank you Good Logic for clarifying your views. It is evident to me that you believe in Rashad Khalifa's discovery of the number 19 as a mathematical signature within the Quran and consider him the 'Messenger of the Covenant. You also view Surah 9 verses 128-129 as not fitting this numerical system, aligning with Khalifa's perspective.
I would like to get more understanding with respect to the "Messenger of Covenant".
Quran 381 - "And , when Allah took the covenant of the prophets, , 'Whatever I give you of the Book and wisdom and then there comes to you a messenger confirming what is with you, you believe in him and support him.' said, 'Have you acknowledged and taken upon that My commitment?' They said, 'We have acknowledged it.' He said, 'Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses.'"
So in other words, it is Khalifa who is mentioned in the above verse as the future messenger who would confirm the scriptures through a divine proof which is mathematical code of the number 19 in the Quran, which he believed verified its text and proved its divine origin.
I believe I have summed up my understanding of your last post, please correct me otherwise.
As you mentioned in previous post "GOD gave the freedom of choice to every individual to believe or otherwise" and I respect your views. However for general knowledge I would like to mention that This interpretation and the identification of Khalifa himself as the "Messenger of the Covenant" are not recognized by mainstream Islam. Traditional Islamic teachings do not support the idea of a new prophet or messenger after Muhammad, whom Muslims believe to be the final prophet (Khatam an-Nabiyyin). Khalifa's views are considered highly controversial and have been rejected by the majority of Muslim scholars and communities. As someone with a background in Mathematics and a Master's in Computing Science - AI, I find Rashad Khalifa's claims quite intriguing. However, I remain cautious and am not fully convinced at this stage; I plan to continue exploring and learning. Regarding the two verses you mentioned, I believe that if they are indeed divinely inspired, their inclusion or exclusion won't ultimately hinder my journey towards understanding, as I trust that God will guide me to His path, Insha'Allah.
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Peace Fusion.
I have my solid proof that Qoran- Hafs version without surah 9 verses 128 and 129 for me- is mathematically composed. all its letters/words/ verses/surahs are locked . The master tablet GOD talks about.The law of preservation has to be tested. If a law is never tested to see if it holds then it might as well not exist.
In that case adding or taking away letters/ words/verses makes no difference since the tempering/change will become evident easily because the mathematical composition will break down.
Any narrative then, becomes irrelevant.
Also for me ,the messenger of the covenant has initiated with authorisation this mathematical composition and the preservation task is also ongoing guided by GOD and His soldiers that are following/guarding Qoran since the beginning.
My take on the Qoran I study and my opinion so far.Others may disagree, but I am satisfied with my checking and findings so far after my ongoing research.
GOD bless you.
Peace.Peace...
Numeric symetry is one unique subject neither cannot deny it nor accept all.. That's how I see it..Basic numeric patterns do exist in Quran unquestionably... So far I don't find anyone who gave a logical answer to why these 29 chapters in Quran had placed mere letters at the very beginning and conspicuous missing of bismillah in chapter 9 ... There must be a reason behind these .. Aren't they? These letters are not kept for fun or just to misguide or just for no reason. After all they are part of Quran and what for..
If Allah promises no one can add it delete anything from His Quran then there should be well and truly a mechanism He would have applied so that no one can literally do so.. But everyone can tear the Quran or burn or include any number addition or deletion.. Can't they? But it is not QURAN.. But what Allah revealed is Quran and nothing else.. Has He really preserved the message, not the one which was written by the messenger... Needless to preserve a literal book which just one. But the message is important.. Is the same message we are getting..? Even if the same original book which was written is in any Library now, it doesn't mean people won't interpret it as they want.. So.. Misinformation is always around.. While Quran was in the process of revealing people were in the hunt of distorting the verses..
Seek guidance from Allah and He won't misguide true believers..
We are like a community worthless... Prophet is sealed. No more means there is a reason.. It's like sorry folks gate is closed.. No entry.. Who knows mercy of Allah is done save very minute number of people who are still seeking guidance from Him with His books...
Favour is very clear.. A Messwnger living and messages flowing and people are answered in their own language... But we have no one to reach save Allah ...
Seal of prophets has part to play.. Allah knows what He does.. And He knows whether people who comes at cetain point of time are believers or disbelievers... Even Messengers come perhaps no one would believe. Destiny is written..
Allah knows best.. But try to be those fortunate people still Slah would guide without a direct messenger or a book in our own language... -
Peace Fusion.
GOD does everything and has sent the details of everything to do with our salvation and redemption in His message.The prophet delivered Qoran, GOD knows people will dispute His message
Any copy of Qoran for the sincere,will do to start with.GOD guides with His words and one should not worry if people add or take away verses or one can only find some portion of Qoran interesting or all of it or....
Remember when it started , it took many years for the prophet s generation to have the complete Qoran.GOD is all knowledgeable and sends or confirms what is needed and according to the knowledge reached by different generations.
" Say The future belongs to GOD so wait everybody will have to be patient and wait"Now Muhammad has been and gone, Rashad has been and gone and their task was to deliver the Qoran and confirm Qoran. The message is the most important thing.
Qoran is the ever living messenger since it came and will outlive all messengers. It is the ultimate messenger.If one is looking to change their priorities and better themselves and their soul, and believes Qoran is the message of GOD, then they will take the message seriously and prepare to meet their creator. The trust and total loyalty in GOD Alone will take them towards certainty in their belief.
Do you believe Qoran is GOD s scripture?
Then GOD Alone and His message- Qoran alone- takes the number one priority.What Qoran confirms for me I take, what is contradictory and opposes it I ignore Of course according to my faculties that GOD gave me to use and I am responsible and accountable at GOD s for. Same should be for every individual.
Best of luck with your journey and freedom of choice.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Ali's protest is documented in many references, but I cite and reproduce here the classic reference AL ITQAAN FEE 'ULUM AL QURAN by Jalaluddin Al-Suyuty, Al-Azhareyyah Press, Cairo, Egypt, 1318 AH, Page 59 .
can you post the hadith? Ali complained about bananas?
Imam Jalal-Al-Din Al-Suyuti (849-911 AH / 1445-1505 CE)
https//data.nur.nu/Kutub/English/Suyuti_Itqan-fi-ulum-alquran-eng.pdf"We have for example, the case of
Ali, the fourth caliph, refusing to change the word talh (bananas) in 5629 for tal(blossoms) even though he believed a scribal error had occurred."So far I don't find anyone who gave a logical answer to why these 29 chapters
maybe has to do with 29
1 7
2 286
3 200
4 176
5 120
6 165
7 206
8 75
9 129
10 109
11 123
12 111
13 43
14 52
15 99
16 128
17 111
18 110
19 98
20 135
21 112
22 78
23 118
24 64
25 77
26 227
27 93
28 88
29 69
30 60
31 34
32 30
33 73
34 54
35 45
36 83
37 182
38 88
39 75
40 85
41 54
42 53
43 89
44 59
45 37
46 35
47 38
48 29
49 18
50 45
51 60
52 49
53 62
54 55
55 78
56 96
57 291653 5104
58 22
59 24
60 13
61 14
62 11
63 11
64 18
65 12
66 12
67 30
68 52
69 52
70 44
71 28
72 28
73 20
74 56
75 40
76 31
77 50
78 40
79 46
80 42
81 29
82 19
83 36
84 25
85 22
86 17
87 19
88 26
89 30
90 20
91 15
92 21
93 11
94 8
95 8
96 19
97 5
98 8
99 8
100 11
101 11
102 8
103 3
104 9
105 5
106 4
107 7
108 3
109 6
110 3
111 5
112 4
113 5
114 64902 1132
6236 = 29 x ... total verses appended to above sequence
AND
6555 = 29 x ... sum ch 1,2,3, ... 114 appended to above1653 = 29 x 57 sum ch 1,2,3, ... to 57 midway
AND
5104 = 29 x 176 total verses ch 1 to 57 midwaylong number calculator use a MOD b (remainder should be = 0)
https//www.boxentriq.com/code-breaking/big-number-calculator -
Peace Bajram Hoxhaj.
If you read my posts again ,I was giving one example of the narratives . You are giving others.
Irrelevant to me ,like I said , you have evidence of your narratives?
They can all be a historical fact or a lie if we cannot give evidence.People try to back their argument with assumptions and hear say.
GOD gives facts and only the truth.GOD has the master tablet. His words are locked and knows people fabricate hadiths.
It is obvious two contradicting narratives cannot be both right . The history is full of " victors narratives " that are lies.
I have not asked or even hinted that my narrative is a fact, you are entitled to ignore it and I am to yours.I am sure you can see it will be a waste of time even trying to prove them.
I am satisfied that Qoran is mathematically composed and I am certain Qoran will stand the test of time as GOD s word and the truth.
You also have the freedom to choose your way.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Basic numeric patterns do exist in Quran unquestionably... So far I don't find anyone who gave a logical answer to why these 29 chapters in Quran had placed mere letters at the very beginning and conspicuous missing of bismillah in chapter 9 ... There must be a reason behind these .. Aren't they? These letters are not kept for fun or just to misguide or just for no reason. After all they are part of Quran and what for..
You actually expressed exactly what I've always thought; I too find the Muqatta'at, those unique combinations of Arabic letters in 29 of the 114 chapters, quite mysterious and been looking for any answer that makes sense.
I'm curious to hear from those who support Rashad Khalifa's work did he offer any insights on the Muqatta'at? Specifically, did he suggest that these letter sequences serve a numerical role similar to a cryptographic signature for each chapter, verifying the Quran's authenticity and integrity? I'm interested in whether he applied a numerical interpretation to these sequences, aside from their standalone meanings. In cryptography, after all, a signature is essential for confirming the authenticity and integrity of a message. I mean after all his work is based on decoding a message and he could not have avoided these broken letters in the beginning of those 19 surahs, how could he?
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Not relevant here.
None of the verses of inheritance throw the math off in any qira'at.
Unless you're talking about the theory of 19, which is inherently stupid to begin with.
Sure, there is math involved in inheritance. Misplacing a meem throws the math off, which you can't qirat your way out of.
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The 10 qira'at were canonized several hundred years later. Prior to the 10, there were over 20 readings.
Some of the 10 readings were declared wrong having grammatical mistakes despite them being accepted.
Interesting.
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hb8PMx34iY
https//ibb.co/KrF5Typ
So if I understand correctly, The copies of the Quran that Caliph Uthman ordered to be burned were not related to the ten Qira'at styles we know today.
See "the Sana palimpsest" it is a different Quran believed to be pre-Uthmanic.
Not completely different, but enough to be distinctive and compliments narrations related to Ibn Masud and his Quran.
Try to find the book "The Transmission of the Variant Readings of the Quran The Problem of Tawatur and the Emergence of Shawdhdh" by Shady Nasser
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Not relevant here.
None of the verses of inheritance throw the math off in any qira'at.
Unless you're talking about the theory of 19, which is inherently stupid to begin with.
Meant about 412 pertains to uterine siblings which creates a math mess.
Variant Readings Of The Quran A Critical Study of Their Historical and Linguistic Origins
https//iiit.org/wp-content/uploads/English-Variant-Readings-of-the-Quran-UPDATED-Complete-RED-1.pdffrom article
"Sa'd ibn Abu Waqqas added أم من (min umm) after أخت أو أخ وله (wa lahu
akh aw ukht) (412). Al-Suyuti points out that this addition is considered commentary.
However, it is unanimously agreed that it is correct."example
1/3 three uterine sisters and three uterine brothers (412) 1/18 each
2/3 two full sisters (4176) 1/3 each, which is 6x more than brothers laugh1/6 mother (411) Fa'in Kāna Lahu 'Ikhwatun Fali'ammihi As-Sudusu
1/2 husband (412) he and mother get nothing since nothing is leftUmar ibn al-Khattab had same issue mother, husband, two uterine and two full brothers.
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slight nuance بسطه (seen) and بصطه (saad)
21 الم (with next verse in old manuscripts)
2247 and increase him (sing.) بسطه extensively (with س denotes singular)71 المص (with next verse in old manuscripts)
769 and increase you (pl.) in the creation بصطه extensively (with ص pl.)10th line from top 5th word بصطه
https//corpuscoranicum.de/en/manuscripts/13/page/33r?sura=7&verse=699th line from top 4th word بصطه
https//corpuscoranicum.de/en/manuscripts/2115/page/7v?sura=7&verse=6910th line from bottom 1st word بصطه
https//corpuscoranicum.de/en/manuscripts/56/page/100v?sura=7&verse=69totals in Qur'an
س seen 6012 (112 بسم bsm = 6123)
ص saad 2073