Where Do Our Thoughts Originate and Can They Be Influenced by External Entities?
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Thank you Jkhan.
So essentially the heart transplant does not fundamentally change a person’s reasoning or thoughts because these are primarily influenced by the brain’s stored memories and the soul’s development through life experiences.
In which case it seems that cognitive functions and reasoning primarily reside in the brain aided by other factors of hearing and vision, as heart transplant recipients retain their original memories and personalities.Would this change if tomorrow there is a possibility of brain transplant?
I mean if at all that is possible then with a new brain, their memories, personality, and cognitive functions would theoretically be those of the brain donor.
For example, if the hard disk of our computers goes bad, we exchange with a new hard disk or perhaps we exchange with some one's else hard disk (already containing data). So now in our existing computer we got all its vital organs functioning with a borrwed hard disk of some ones else computer.
Likewise, the brain is the repository of memories. Transplanting a brain would transfer the donor’s memories to the recipient’s body, potentially overwriting the recipient’s original memories....Now some one may argue that brain transplant is virtually impossible... well in that case, heart transplant could have been impossible to ancient cave man.
Considering a hypothetical future where all major organs and sensory faculties (brain, heart, vision, and hearing) can be transplanted, how would you rephrase your last reply ?
Would you agree that in such a scenario, the brain handles the functional aspects of thought and reasoning, while the heart symbolizes the moral and spiritual center?
Moreover, in such a case would this not pose a challenge on the day of judgement based on the record that will be put on our rights hands which contains all our actions? I believe No, this would not pose a challenge on the Day of Judgement as Accountability is based on the soul and its intentions, which remain constant regardless of physical organ transplants. Allah’s judgement is based on His complete knowledge of the individual’s true essence and actions.
All of my questions that I raised originate from the following verse1785 وَيَسْـَٔلُونَكَ عَنِ ٱلرُّوحِ ۖ قُلِ ٱلرُّوحُ مِنْ أَمْرِ رَبِّى وَمَآ أُوتِيتُم مِّنَ ٱلْعِلْمِ إِلَّا قَلِيلًۭا
Now am not going to translate the arabic word Rooh here to soul as this is debatable but does this verse have anything to do with what we are discussing here? your thoughts please -
Peace Fusion.
What is freedom of choice? This will lead to understand partly why thoughts and actions are key for freedom of choice to take place.Also the intellect is the other part of these processes.
The debate /reflection/analysis of the thoughts by the intellect play the important role of dictating the actions.
We accepted the "Amana"-responsibility- and were given the freedom of choice between two paths to follow to account for this responsibility.
Thoughts and actions are part of the process. Our thoughts and actions can be controlled by the intellect and guidance or intellect and non guidance.
There are also outside forces that influence/interfere on our thoughts and actions depending on the two factors-with guidance from the creator or non guidance-Once one makes the decision to choose guidance and starts on this journey ,as well as their intellect, their submission to GOD gives them a helping hand to deal with the thoughts and actions to start on the reflection and cleansing of both that is required to control the actions and deal with the thoughts beforehand. i.e GOD will respond and will start the help and the assessment of the individual conviction.
If not, then one goes it alone or /and with others help ,and uses their intellect to deal with both.
So thoughts are a foundation like the mind and body given to live as a human to undergo the test.
Actioning/or not/or filtering/... the thoughts are the measure for success or failure.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace Fusion.
Regarding this verse
1785 وَيَسْـَٔلُونَكَ عَنِ ٱلرُّوحِ ۖ قُلِ ٱلرُّوحُ مِنْ أَمْرِ رَبِّى وَمَآ أُوتِيتُم مِّنَ ٱلْعِلْمِ إِلَّا قَلِيلًۭا
I understand this verse differently from the context of the verses !7 80-89.
Ruh here does not mean soul.It means simply the revelation from GOD /scripture-Qoran- THE SOURCE OF ALL KNOWLEDGE AND WISDOM is always GOD.. Like
Wa Kadhalika Anzalna Alaika RUHAN Min Amrina.Because the following verse 17;86-89 consolidate this understanding about Ruh here is Qoran
If we will, we can take back what we revealed to you, then you will find no protector against us.
وَلَئِن شِئنا لَنَذهَبَنَّ بِالَّذى أَوحَينا إِلَيكَ ثُمَّ لا تَجِدُ لَكَ بِهِ عَلَينا وَكيلًا
This is but mercy from your Lord. His blessings upon you have been great.
إِلّا رَحمَةً مِن رَبِّكَ إِنَّ فَضلَهُ كانَ عَلَيكَ كَبيرًاSay, "If all the humans and all the jinns banded together in order to produce a Qoran like this, they could never produce anything like it, no matter how much assistance they lent one another."
قُل لَئِنِ اجتَمَعَتِ الإِنسُ وَالجِنُّ عَلىٰ أَن يَأتوا بِمِثلِ هٰذَا القُرءانِ لا يَأتونَ بِمِثلِهِ وَلَو كانَ بَعضُهُم لِبَعضٍ ظَهيرًا
We have cited for the people in this Qoran all kinds of examples, but most people insist upon disbelieving.
وَلَقَد صَرَّفنا لِلنّاسِ فى هٰذَا القُرءانِ مِن كُلِّ مَثَلٍ فَأَبىٰ أَكثَرُ النّاسِ إِلّا كُفورًاGOD bless you.
Peace. -
Thank you Jkhan.
So essentially the heart transplant does not fundamentally change a person’s reasoning or thoughts because these are primarily influenced by the brain’s stored memories and the soul’s development through life experiences.
In which case it seems that cognitive functions and reasoning primarily reside in the brain aided by other factors of hearing and vision, as heart transplant recipients retain their original memories and personalities.Would this change if tomorrow there is a possibility of brain transplant?
I mean if at all that is possible then with a new brain, their memories, personality, and cognitive functions would theoretically be those of the brain donor.
For example, if the hard disk of our computers goes bad, we exchange with a new hard disk or perhaps we exchange with some one's else hard disk (already containing data). So now in our existing computer we got all its vital organs functioning with a borrwed hard disk of some ones else computer.
Likewise, the brain is the repository of memories. Transplanting a brain would transfer the donor’s memories to the recipient’s body, potentially overwriting the recipient’s original memories....Now some one may argue that brain transplant is virtually impossible... well in that case, heart transplant could have been impossible to ancient cave man.
Considering a hypothetical future where all major organs and sensory faculties (brain, heart, vision, and hearing) can be transplanted, how would you rephrase your last reply ?
Would you agree that in such a scenario, the brain handles the functional aspects of thought and reasoning, while the heart symbolizes the moral and spiritual center?
Moreover, in such a case would this not pose a challenge on the day of judgement based on the record that will be put on our rights hands which contains all our actions? I believe No, this would not pose a challenge on the Day of Judgement as Accountability is based on the soul and its intentions, which remain constant regardless of physical organ transplants. Allah’s judgement is based on His complete knowledge of the individual’s true essence and actions.
All of my questions that I raised originate from the following verse1785 وَيَسْـَٔلُونَكَ عَنِ ٱلرُّوحِ ۖ قُلِ ٱلرُّوحُ مِنْ أَمْرِ رَبِّى وَمَآ أُوتِيتُم مِّنَ ٱلْعِلْمِ إِلَّا قَلِيلًۭا
Now am not going to translate the arabic word Rooh here to soul as this is debatable but does this verse have anything to do with what we are discussing here? your thoughts pleaseIn a nutshell, remember the BRAIN does not reflect at all... That's Quran and I explained it in detail. But The Heart which is in the breast uses what is already stored in the Brain because of using faculties of VISION and HEARING ... That's saved Knowledge .. otherwise a person has to seek knowledge which is not in the brain.. That's it..
Regarding your future question of Brain transplant or full head replacement... let's discuss once it is done successfully and human lives... Head is not an organ by the way... mind it..
I am not a wanderer in confusion... be firm in Allah's faith... -
Peace Fusion.
Regarding this verse
1785 وَيَسْـَٔلُونَكَ عَنِ ٱلرُّوحِ ۖ قُلِ ٱلرُّوحُ مِنْ أَمْرِ رَبِّى وَمَآ أُوتِيتُم مِّنَ ٱلْعِلْمِ إِلَّا قَلِيلًۭا
I understand this verse differently from the context of the verses !7 80-89.
Ruh here does not mean soul.It means simply the revelation from GOD /scripture-Qoran- THE SOURCE OF ALL KNOWLEDGE AND WISDOM is always GOD.. Like
Wa Kadhalika Anzalna Alaika RUHAN Min Amrina.Because the following verse 17;86-89 consolidate this understanding about Ruh here is Qoran
If we will, we can take back what we revealed to you, then you will find no protector against us.
وَلَئِن شِئنا لَنَذهَبَنَّ بِالَّذى أَوحَينا إِلَيكَ ثُمَّ لا تَجِدُ لَكَ بِهِ عَلَينا وَكيلًا
This is but mercy from your Lord. His blessings upon you have been great.
إِلّا رَحمَةً مِن رَبِّكَ إِنَّ فَضلَهُ كانَ عَلَيكَ كَبيرًاSay, "If all the humans and all the jinns banded together in order to produce a Qoran like this, they could never produce anything like it, no matter how much assistance they lent one another."
قُل لَئِنِ اجتَمَعَتِ الإِنسُ وَالجِنُّ عَلىٰ أَن يَأتوا بِمِثلِ هٰذَا القُرءانِ لا يَأتونَ بِمِثلِهِ وَلَو كانَ بَعضُهُم لِبَعضٍ ظَهيرًا
We have cited for the people in this Qoran all kinds of examples, but most people insist upon disbelieving.
وَلَقَد صَرَّفنا لِلنّاسِ فى هٰذَا القُرءانِ مِن كُلِّ مَثَلٍ فَأَبىٰ أَكثَرُ النّاسِ إِلّا كُفورًاGOD bless you.
Peace.perhaps you are right ... i am not to deny your understanding... My understanding little different but not far..
Ar'Ruh for me is The Revealer / The Inspirer in many places and yes you can take it as the revelation as well, but I am happy with The Revealer.. and not Soul... My understanding is open until I get a better understanding from me or from others.. Guidance is meant to reach gradually..
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@good logic
329 "Then He proportioned him and breathed into him from His inspiration (ruh) and made for you HEARINGS and VISIONS and THOUGHTS; little are you grateful."
If anyone ponders the verse deeply, you would realize what Allah has elaborated in the above verse... EARs, EYEs, and HEARTs are replaced by their major functions .. Allah never let him without any sort of guidance but the NATURAL INSPIRATION of Allah always infused into the human and why not to all his creatures and that's RUH here.. and not soul... The Soul was empty when created and humans developed it to be either good or evil and that will last until the next life.. and that's the soul Malaika will take back to their Lord.. Animals don't have anything to develop as a soul and with the infused inspiration when it was created /born they act. But, since the human is given the freewill, the human will either deny or accept the natural inspiration and choose his way...
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Thank you, GL and Jkhan, for your time and explanations. I still have a few clarifications based on your replies. I will summarize my questions in light of your last messages.
GL mentioned, 'We accepted the "Amana" (responsibility) and were given the freedom of choice between two paths to follow to account for this responsibility.' What do you mean by 'we' here? Personally, I do not recall accepting this responsibility. Unless you are referring to the original couple, Adam and Eve, then perhaps you are correct. But even then, the responsibility would lie with Adam and Eve as individuals and shouldn't be passed on to their offspring without consent. Did God ask us before creating us if we wanted to be tested or not?
I will cite a few Quranic verses that hint at a significant incident where all humans—past, present, and future—were present before God and were asked about the Amana and free will. However, we do not seem to remember this event. This raises another question were we all created beforehand without physical bodies? Was it our souls? If so, where did our reasoning, logic, and thoughts come from when we were only souls at that point in time as we lacked the physical organs....or perhaps we created in full and attended that event then we were destroyed?
In that case, how could the soul, which promised God to undertake the responsibility, be considered empty, as Jkhan mentioned? Does it mean our souls were reset and then placed into human bodies in this world as empty vessels? If so, as time proceeds, we use our hearing and sight to learn and act accordingly. But does this make sense? God took a promise or oath, and among all other creations, man accepted the Amana. Then everything was wiped from our consciousness, and now we are here in this world being tested.
I am trying to connect the dots. Can someone provide a comprehensive answer that covers all these verses and concepts?
Surah Al-Ahzab (3372)
"Indeed, We offered the Trust to the heavens and the earth and the mountains, and they declined to bear it and feared it; but man bear it. Indeed, he was unjust and ignorant."7172
And ˹remember˺ when your Lord brought forth from the loins of the children of Adam their descendants and had them testify regarding themselves. ˹Allah asked,˺ “Am I not your Lord?” They replied, “Yes, You are! We testify.” ˹He cautioned,˺ “Now you have no right to say on Judgment Day, ‘We were not aware of this.’Surah Al-Isra (1785)
"And they ask you, , about the soul. Say, 'The soul is of the affair of my Lord. And mankind have not been given of knowledge except a little.'"In actual fact I will be more than happy to believe the verse 7172 literally meaning that all those who came to this world past present and future have a unique separate identity created initally by GOD and we all exists independently- That to me makes all the sense. Unlike thinking that a couple Adam and Yve reproduced all of us and we multiply ... this is like we are cells who multiply and carry the features of our parents in all senses without our will. If it is established that all of us existed before and our presence in this world is through a natual process which is that we were to be Born as per 1526 is just a way to insert our pre-created souls into the vessel of human body and etc.
I wish if Emrea was looking at this thread because he has a different theiry about souls and I would like to hear his opinion about verse 7172Thank you
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Thank you, GL and Jkhan, for your time and explanations. I still have a few clarifications based on your replies. I will summarize my questions in light of your last messages.
GL mentioned, 'We accepted the "Amana" (responsibility) and were given the freedom of choice between two paths to follow to account for this responsibility.' What do you mean by 'we' here? Personally, I do not recall accepting this responsibility. Unless you are referring to the original couple, Adam and Eve, then perhaps you are correct. But even then, the responsibility would lie with Adam and Eve as individuals and shouldn't be passed on to their offspring without consent. Did God ask us before creating us if we wanted to be tested or not?
I will cite a few Quranic verses that hint at a significant incident where all humans—past, present, and future—were present before God and were asked about the Amana and free will. However, we do not seem to remember this event. This raises another question were we all created beforehand without physical bodies? Was it our souls? If so, where did our reasoning, logic, and thoughts come from when we were only souls at that point in time as we lacked the physical organs....or perhaps we created in full and attended that event then we were destroyed?
In that case, how could the soul, which promised God to undertake the responsibility, be considered empty, as Jkhan mentioned? Does it mean our souls were reset and then placed into human bodies in this world as empty vessels? If so, as time proceeds, we use our hearing and sight to learn and act accordingly. But does this make sense? God took a promise or oath, and among all other creations, man accepted the Amana. Then everything was wiped from our consciousness, and now we are here in this world being tested.
I am trying to connect the dots. Can someone provide a comprehensive answer that covers all these verses and concepts?
Surah Al-Ahzab (3372)
"Indeed, We offered the Trust to the heavens and the earth and the mountains, and they declined to bear it and feared it; but man bear it. Indeed, he was unjust and ignorant."7172
And ˹remember˺ when your Lord brought forth from the loins of the children of Adam their descendants and had them testify regarding themselves. ˹Allah asked,˺ “Am I not your Lord?” They replied, “Yes, You are! We testify.” ˹He cautioned,˺ “Now you have no right to say on Judgment Day, ‘We were not aware of this.’Surah Al-Isra (1785)
"And they ask you,
, about the soul. Say, 'The soul is of the affair of my Lord. And mankind have not been given of knowledge except a little.'"In actual fact I will be more than happy to believe the verse 7172 literally meaning that all those who came to this world past present and future have a unique separate identity created initally by GOD and we all exists independently- That to me makes all the sense. Unlike thinking that a couple Adam and Yve reproduced all of us and we multiply ... this is like we are cells who multiply and carry the features of our parents in all senses without our will. If it is established that all of us existed before and our presence in this world is through a natual process which is that we were to be Born as per 1526 is just a way to insert our pre-created souls into the vessel of human body and etc.
I wish if Emrea was looking at this thread because he has a different theiry about souls and I would like to hear his opinion about verse 7172Thank you
First and foremost, remember that Thought and Reason are not the same nor assumption as you are aware even though thought and reason and assumption are performed by the Heart.. Everyone can think but everyone won’t REASON.. The next level of thought is Reason where logic and facts are applied to the thoughts with much consciousness.. For this already cultivated knowledge plays a role too…
And whoever believes in Allah - He will guide his heart/thought. 6411
They will not fight you all except within fortified cities or from behind walls. Their violence among themselves is severe. You think they are together, but their hearts/thoughts are diverse. That is because they are a people who do not REASON. 5914
He has placed within their hearts/thoughts faith and supported them with inspiration from Him. 5822
And We placed in the hearts/thoughts of those who followed him compassion and mercy 5727
You have not believed; but say, 'We have submitted,' for faith has not yet entered your hearts/thoughts 4914
Then do they not comprehend the Qur'an, or are there restrictions in their hearts/thoughts? 4724
you see those in whose hearts/thoughts is hypocrisy 4720
Thoughts, Reasons, Faith, Mercy, Compassion, hypocrisy inspiration, etc. are all from Heart..
And regarding 7172, do not confuse your state of mind.. Whatever the Loin of Adam could be, since they were not put to the test until they were placed inside the body, they (souls) were empty.. Souls are empty void of actions… Just because accepting the Lord who created the soul doesn’t mean the souls are filled with actions of evil and good.. it’s common to all people including messengers and prophets… actions are counted once they are placed in the body.. The reason for the creation of Men and Jinn is to be tested on who is good in action.. So souls were empty and they commenced their life from Zero with the inspiration of their Lord and with their own acceptance of the Lord too inside a physical body.…
Everyone promised you are our Lord while they were souls and they didn’t deny and everything changed once they were put inside physics.. from there onwards actions were counted and recorded.. and that’s what matters …
If you believe that thoughts are from the brain or part of the brain it is up to you and I am not to change it. But I am happy with logic and Quran verses that Thoughts originate from Heart and it is its function too…
I am sure it is not easy to accept such a truth while science is against it ... No harm... those who want to follow science think it is the truth can, but I am happy not emotionally but with logic from Allah's verses... -
anyone who wishes can read many websites regarding Little Brain in the Heart.. i have added one site.. and a YouTube video..
https//research.jefferson.edu/2022-magazine/the-hearts-little-brain.html
https//youtu.be/wq7D7ILUVGY?si=4eC7dDV9HHC6qmP0
Always trust Allah's verses.. Whatever you don't understand based on Quran verses doesn't mean the verses are wrong.. Our inability to comprehend them... Faith cannot waver when one doesn't understand the verses.. be alert on that and otherwise Satan can take us far away from guidance..
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Peace jkhan.
Like most Qoranic words ,Ruh has different meanings according to the context of the verses.
For example, this Ruh in "Nazala Bihi Al Ruh Al Amin" means " the living Angel brought it-From the ever living revealer- to your..."
Therefore one common aspect of all meanings of Ruh is "Something alive/lively..."Ruh in 17;85 is the "alive revelation" that continues to inspire every generation according to their time,place and knowledge. The messenger that outlives all messengers. Also it is as if it is still coming down live from the original tablet at GOD.
"Wa La Taajal Bi Al Qoran Min Kabli An Yukda Ilaika Wahyahu..." i.e "Do not rush with Qoran, let/seek... inspiration as you gradually learn/study it..."Yes brother, I find Qoran a live scripture. Everyday one learns something new from it, it never runs out of giving new knowledge every time one reads/studies it.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
