Monotheist translation of a word in 7:141
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I asked this question long time ago and now since Ii can’t find it I would like to ask again. If I’m to follow Quran I need to know which translation is correct.
Now in the monotheist group translation it say in 7141 that they used to kill your males and rape your women. In the all other translations it says they used to kill your males and leave females.
So those who know Arabic, can you please interpret?
I apologise for not quoting the verse, I don’t have a computer and I don’t know how to do things with this phone, it’s an iPhone 15+, in the past it was easy for me to open up many browsers at the same time.
Also, which translation would you recommend please?Thanks
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Whenever one studies anything, including trying to understand Quran, one must adopt a robust methodology, e.g.
http//www.quran434.com/study-method.htmlResources
https//www.studyquran.org/e.g.
in this case read every occurrence of the specific verb form in Quran here
https//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=Hyy#(714111)Verb (form X) - to let live, to be shy, to be ashamed
(2264) yastaḥyī ashamed إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يَسْتَحْيِي أَنْ يَضْرِبَ مَثَلًا مَا بَعُوضَةً فَمَا فَوْقَهَا
(24911) wayastaḥyūna and letting live يُذَبِّحُونَ أَبْنَاءَكُمْ وَيَسْتَحْيُونَ نِسَاءَكُمْ
(712717) wanastaḥyī and we will let live قَالَ سَنُقَتِّلُ أَبْنَاءَهُمْ وَنَسْتَحْيِي نِسَاءَهُمْ
(714111) wayastaḥyūna and letting live يُقَتِّلُونَ أَبْنَاءَكُمْ وَيَسْتَحْيُونَ نِسَاءَكُمْ
(14619) wayastaḥyūna and letting live يَسُومُونَكُمْ سُوءَ الْعَذَابِ وَيُذَبِّحُونَ أَبْنَاءَكُمْ وَيَسْتَحْيُونَ نِسَاءَكُمْ
(28414) wayastaḥyī and letting live يُذَبِّحُ أَبْنَاءَهُمْ وَيَسْتَحْيِي نِسَاءَهُمْ إِنَّهُ كَانَ مِنَ الْمُفْسِدِينَ
(335332) fayastaḥyī and he is shy إِنَّ ذَٰلِكُمْ كَانَ يُؤْذِي النَّبِيَّ فَيَسْتَحْيِي مِنْكُمْ
(335336) yastaḥyī is not shy وَاللَّهُ لَا يَسْتَحْيِي مِنَ الْحَقِّ
(402512) wa-is'taḥyū and let live قَالُوا اقْتُلُوا أَبْنَاءَ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا مَعَهُ وَاسْتَحْيُوا نِسَاءَهُمْ -
This is not really a matter of knowing Arabic here.
It's a matter of clarifying the underlying and hidden assumptions you use for understanding or translating Qur'an.
If your assumption is that this verse is about to fix falsehood in the Bible and convince the Jews to join Islam, as the Islamic tradition or most people here claim, then go to the Jews, and see if they are convinced by this way (hint they are not, so it's sheer failure).
If you don't care what the Jews think, then whatever translation is fine. Pick one and move forward.
If your assumption is that Qur'an narrates a story of the former messengers to endorse the mission of Muhammad, then again whatever translation will be fine.
In fact, if you don't really use this verse for yourself for what it means, any reasonable translation can be fine and is only a matter of personal preference in resonance with your own ideas.
On the other hand, if you instinctively believe that this verse, like the others, tries to teach you something of the divine will that applied to the fellow citizens of the Qur'an messenger and possibly beyond, then you need to perform substantial work and knowing Arabic is a tiny fraction of it.
For the sequel of this post, let's assume this verse tried to teach something about the divine will to the fellow citizens of the Qur'an preacher.
Then you need to realize that there were no Islam or Muslim traditions yet at that time.
Teaching something drawn from the Jewish tradition, like the story of Moses, would have made utter nonsense if those fellow citizens knew nothing of the Jewish teachings.
Most of us, and even the Jews today, are unfamiliar with the ancient Jewish teachings and we are struggling to make something meaningful out of Qur'an statements about Biblical stories.So it would have been the same in the 7th CE and maybe even worse.
Therefore, logically, the hard work is to understand how ancient Jews used to teach the divine will in order to grasp the true meaning of the verse.
The way they used to teach the divine will is called "midrash", and this is what you need to learn in order to fully understand the meaning of this verse.
A midrash was an expounding of the divine will based on three components
- A dictionary of allegories and metaphors.
- Wordplays, alliterations, assonance to create multiple hearings in order to insist on some notion
- Narratives that serve as a basis to create new narratives, especially using the two bullets above.
Btw, the third bullet above is responsible for the seemingly divergences between the Bible and the Qur'an that a lot of people mistakenly believe to be "fixing of false Bible" by Qur'an while it was never the intent.
So what does this verse 7.141 mean by this analysis ?
It first says that Pharaoh killed the sons.
The son in the Scriptures means the Saviour, the Messiah, the Redeemer.
In Qur'an, it means a messenger.Whenever you read stories where people desperately await for a son, e.g. Abraham, Zakaria, etc, it means it is a teaching about the coming of the Saviour.
With the Saviour comes also the entrance into the World to Come, the inheritance of the land, and a new divine Law that alleviates the (harsh) conditions of this worldly life.The coming of the Saviour means also that the other nations will benefit from the newly alleviated divine Law.
Therefore barring the coming of the Saviour is an extremely serious misdeed in the sense that it will deprive the nations from receiving the divine Law.
This is a transversal teaching throughout all the Scriptures including Qur'an.Next, regarding women, the translation of the Monotheist group is not absurd.
They were left ashamed, so it could be from rape or something else shameful.What was actually done to them is not the point though.
The important point is that they were left ashamed.
The shame or the nudity is in the ancient Jewish teachings is the absence of clothes made of the divine Law.
Also the women usually means the pagan nations, i.e. those that were not given the divine Law.So Pharaoh in this verse has killed the hope in the coming of a Saviour, i.e. a messenger from God, and the World to Come, and has barred the nations from receiving the divine Law.
That is what this verse means.Now, of course, this verse wasn't addressed to Pharaoh but to the fellow citizens of the Qur'an messenger.
They were those targeted by this verse.Now, the question remains of what they did so they were compared to Pharaoh.
Unfortunately there is no way to answer that question based on the history narrated by the Muslim tradition. -
Peace Ervin.
7141 is part of the story of Moses and Pharaoh that started way back from verse 7103 . This comes after the stories of the communities before Pharaoh that the same Surah was telling us about and concluded by this summaryWe narrate to you the history of those communities their messengers went to them with clear bayinat/signs... , but they were not to believe in what they had rejected before. God thus seals the hearts of the disbelievers.
تِلكَ القُرىٰ نَقُصُّ عَلَيكَ مِن أَنبائِها وَلَقَد جاءَتهُم رُسُلُهُم بِالبَيِّنٰتِ فَما كانوا لِيُؤمِنوا بِما كَذَّبوا مِن قَبلُ كَذٰلِكَ يَطبَعُ اللَّهُ عَلىٰ قُلوبِ الكٰفِرينَ
We found that most of them disregard their covenant; we found most of them wicked.*
وَما وَجَدنا لِأَكثَرِهِم مِن عَهدٍ وَإِن وَجَدنا أَكثَرَهُم لَفٰسِقينَThen Moses and Pharaoh story starts
After (those messengers,) we sent Moses with our signs to Pharaoh and his people, but they transgressed. Note the consequences for the wicked.
ثُمَّ بَعَثنا مِن بَعدِهِم موسىٰ بِـٔايٰتِنا إِلىٰ فِرعَونَ وَمَلَإِي۟هِ فَظَلَموا بِها فَانظُر كَيفَ كانَ عٰقِبَةُ المُفسِدينَ
Moses said, "O Pharaoh, I am a messenger from the Lord of the universe.
وَقالَ موسىٰ يٰفِرعَونُ إِنّى رَسولٌ مِن رَبِّ العٰلَمينَ
"It is incumbent upon me that I do not say about God except the truth. I come to you with a sign from your Lord; let the Children of Israel go."
حَقيقٌ عَلىٰ أَن لا أَقولَ عَلَى اللَّهِ إِلَّا الحَقَّ قَد جِئتُكُم بِبَيِّنَةٍ مِن رَبِّكُم فَأَرسِل مَعِىَ بَنى إِسرٰءيلَ
He said, "If you have a sign, then produce it, if you are truthful."
قالَ إِن كُنتَ جِئتَ بِـٔايَةٍ فَأتِ بِها إِن كُنتَ مِنَ الصّٰدِقينَ... etc.And the story continues until we get to 7141
Recall that we delivered you from Pharaoh's people, who inflicted the worst persecution upon you, killing your sons and sparing your daughters. That was an exacting trial for you from your Lord.
وَإِذ أَنجَينٰكُم مِن ءالِ فِرعَونَ يَسومونَكُم سوءَ العَذابِ يُقَتِّلونَ أَبناءَكُم وَيَستَحيونَ نِساءَكُم وَفى ذٰلِكُم بَلاءٌ مِن رَبِّكُم عَظيمٌThis is a reminder to Beni Israel back to when Pharaoh killed their first born sons as a punishment to them, because after they were rescued from Pharaoh they wanted some other "god/idol".
They were ungrateful wanting to copy the "idol-worshipers tribe" that they passed on the way after they crossed the sea.
Moses also strongly warned them in the verse before that 7140
"Shall I seek for you other than God to be your god, when He has blessed you more than anyone else in the world?"
قالَ أَغَيرَ اللَّهِ أَبغيكُم إِلٰهًا وَهُوَ فَضَّلَكُم عَلَى العٰلَمينَFrom 703 to 7168 , it is the history of Beni Israel under Moses, it concludes by
We scattered them among many communities throughout the land. Some of them were righteous, and some were less than righteous. We tested them with prosperity and hardship, that they may return.
وَقَطَّعنٰهُم فِى الأَرضِ أُمَمًا مِنهُمُ الصّٰلِحونَ وَمِنهُم دونَ ذٰلِكَ وَبَلَونٰهُم بِالحَسَنٰتِ وَالسَّيِّـٔاتِ لَعَلَّهُم يَرجِعونَGOD bless you.
Peace. -
I asked this question long time ago and now since Ii can’t find it I would like to ask again. If I’m to follow Quran I need to know which translation is correct.
Now in the monotheist group translation it say in 7141 that they used to kill your males and rape your women. In the all other translations it says they used to kill your males and leave females.
So those who know Arabic, can you please interpret?
I apologise for not quoting the verse, I don’t have a computer and I don’t know how to do things with this phone, it’s an iPhone 15+, in the past it was easy for me to open up many browsers at the same time.
Also, which translation would you recommend please?Thanks
Peace Ervin,
It's ok that you can't quote the verse, Here's a few translations
Sahih International And , when We saved you from the people of Pharaoh, afflicting you with the worst torment - killing your sons and keeping your women alive. And in that was a great trial from your Lord.
Pickthall And (remember) when We did deliver you from Pharaoh's folk who were afflicting you with dreadful torment, slaughtering your sons and sparing your women. That was a tremendous trial from your Lord.
Yusuf Ali And remember We rescued you from Pharaoh's people, who afflicted you with the worst of penalties, who slew your male children and saved alive your females in that was a momentous trial from your Lord.
Shakir And when We delivered you from Firon's people who subjected you to severe torment, killing your sons and sparing your women, and in this there was a great trial from your Lord.
Muhammad Sarwar "Children of Israel, when I saved you from the Pharaoh and his people who made you suffer the worst kinds of torment, killing your sons and keeping your women alive, it was a great trial for you from your Lord."
So, what did the Japanese army do to the Korean women?
ANS. During World War II, the Japanese Imperial Army forced Korean women and girls into sexual
slavery through a system known as comfort womenWhat did the Japanese army do to the Filipino women?
Ans. a number of women were raped and abducted through violent means to garrison buildings,
then confined there and forced to provide sexual services.what did the romans do to female captives?
Ans. The fate of many women and children captured in a war with Rome was enslavement and prostitution.
And finally the Arab Muslims
Ans. the Qur'an permits men to have sexual access to “what their right hands possess,”
meaning female captives or slaves (Q. 23.5-6; 70.29-30).I hope you can see why women were spared.
God bless you.
peace
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Salam Ervin.
The translation is correct in meaning, though literally it should be "shame your women" which is a more correct renidion of "yastahyoon".
It is patently against basic academic rules of determining meanings of a word. Meanings are determined in the context where used, and collocates highlight them.
The picturesque portrayal of the personality of Fir'aoun is the best case-study for psychologists and psychiatrists to have insights about Narcissistic Personality Disorder as he is unique example and case of extreme of this Disorder in human history.
نَتْلُوا۟ عَلَيْكَ مِن نَّبَإِ مُوسَـىٰ وَفِرْعَوْنَ بِٱلْحَقِّ لِقَوْمٛ يُؤْمِنُونَ ٣
Our Majesty recite unto you the Messenger some of the narrative of the history of Mūsā and Fir'aoun (Pharaoh), loaded with factual circumstances obtaining. The objective is to particularly acquaint the people who have believed in you.إِنَّ فِرْعَوْنَ عَلَا فِـى ٱلۡأَرْضِ وَجَعَلَ أَهْلَـهَا شِيَعٙايَسْتَضْعِفُ طَـآئِفَةٙ مِّنْـهُـمْ
يُذَبِّـحُ أَبْنَآءَهُـمْ وَيَسْتَحْيِىۦ نِسَاءَهُـمْۚ إِنَّهُۥ كَانَ مِنَ ٱلْمُفْسِدِينَ ٤
Indeed Fir'aoun (Pharaoh) had exalted himself in the Land (Egypt) —And he had rendered her society segmented in few classes—By design he kept causing weakening a group of them —
For accomplishing his objective, he remained in search and desire to order slaughtering their sons and for well thought design let their women live. Indeed he was long been behaving on pattern of those who create imbalances, depravity, fasad.
The verbal sentence عَلَا comprising of Verb Perfect; Third person; Singular; Masculine; Subject Pronoun hidden referent to Fir'aoun is the true depiction of his Arabic name/title. Its verbal noun is; مصدر-عُلُوٌ stemming from Root ع ل و. It leads to the perception of eminence, loftiness, sublimity, elevation, exaltation, and up-rise; such exaltation and grandeur that nothing can deviate from it.
Fir'aoun is depicted as Narcissist with a long term pattern of abnormal behaviour characterized by Grandiosity. He was a man always thinking about achieving more and more power by using technique of "divide and conquer". He had rendered the subjects of his country divided شِيَعٙا , a plural of paucity denoting few classes - a system of ordering society whereby people are divided into sets based on perceived social or economic status. The effected ethnic sub-group was Bani Iesraa'eela - the sons of Iesraa'eela who had long back settled in Misr (upper Egypt).He was a ruthless monarch who indulged in genocide of one national group by determined and systematic killing of their new born sons and leaving women who were incorporated in the conquering group. By this he not only kept that group in subjugation - enslaved but it was also aimed at controlling their demographics and not to let increase the percentage of their young males. Slaughtering of their new born sons is also mentioned at other three places
وَإِذْ نَجَّيْنَـٟكُـم مِّنْ ءَالِ فِرْعَوْنَ يَسُومُونَكُـمْ سُوٓءَ ٱلْعَذَابِ
يُذَبِّحُونَ أَبْنَآءَكُمْ وَيَسْتَحْيُونَ نِسَآءَكُمْۚ
وَفِـى ذَٟلـِكُـم بَلَآء�ٚ مِّن رَّبِّكُـمْ عَظِيـمٚ٤٩
Moreover, recall when Our Majesty delivered you people from the fold-ranks of Pharaoh — While you were in a situation wherein they were seeking-marking you people for inflicting the horrible torment —
They remained in search for slaughtering your newly born sons. However, they had consciously and purposely decided to leave your wives alive —
Of course, a hard trial was inherent therein that your Sustainer Lord let persist for a while for you.
وَإِذْ أَنْجَيْنَاكُم مِّنْ ءَالِ فِرْعَونَ يَسُومُونَكُـمْ سُوٓءَ ٱلْعَذَابِۖ
يُقَتِّلُونَ أَبْنَآءَكُمْ وَيَسْتَحْيُونَ نِسَآءَكُمْۚ
وَفِـى ذَٟلـِكُـم بَلَآءٚ مِّن رَّبِّكُـمْ عَظِيـمٚ .١٤١
Moreover, recall when Our Majesty delivered you from the fold-ranks of Pharaoh — While you were in a situation wherein they were seeking-marking you people for inflicting the horrible torment —
They remained in search to assassinate-slaughter your newly born sons. However, they had consciously and purposely decided to leave your wives alive.
And a hard trial was inherent therein that your Sustainer Lord let persist for a while for you.
وَإِذْ قَالَ مُوسَـىٰ لِقَوْمِهِ ٱذْكُرُوا۟ نِعْمَةَ ٱللَّهِ عَلَيْكُـمْ
إِذْ أَنجَىٰكُـم مِّنْ ءَالِ فِرْعَوْنَ يَسُومُونَكُـمْ سُوٓءَ ٱلْعَذَابِ
وَيُذَبِّحُونَ أَبْنَآءَكُمْ وَيَسْتَحْيُونَ نِسَآءَكُمْۚ
وَفِـى ذَٟلـِكُـم بَلَآءٚ مِّن رَّبَّكُـمْ عَظِيـمٚ ٦
Recollect the history; When Mūsā said to his nation "Recall the Specific Favour of Allah the one which was bestowed upon you people as achievement award in the circumstances—
When He the Exalted delivered you people from the fold-ranks of Pharaoh — While you were in a situation wherein they were seeking-marking you people for inflicting the horrible torment —
And they remained in search for slaughtering your newly born sons. However, they had consciously and purposely decided to leave your wives alive —
And a hard trial was inherent therein that your Sustainer Lord let persist for a while for you. -
And finally the Arab Muslims
Ans. the Qur'an permits men to have sexual access to “what their right hands possess,”
meaning female captives or slaves (Q. 23.5-6; 70.29-30).Salaam, why would that be any different from Fir`awna? Why would one rape those what entrust right hands (oaths) theirs? If your neighbor entrusts you with the keys to their house while on vacation, would you ransack it and steal?
However, they had consciously and purposely decided to leave your wives alive
Imprecise assertion Nisa encompasses womenfolk of any age and status as explicitly defined in the Qur'an.
