Women as sex objects ..
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Salaam Br.
You said
?On what basis do you say this says Widows. Don?t just say this says widows but tell us on what basis.?The word yatama comes from the root Alif ,Ye,Mim.
And can present a man without a wife, a woman without a husband or even children without a parent.
See Page 625 quranic dictionary, and lanes page 137-for a lot more clarification.
To see what Allah has said who he is referring to you have to look at the context whether children or women are the prime people Allah is referring to
004.003
(O mankind) If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly/fairly with the ALYATAMA/widows then Marry WOMEN of your choice, Two?s, three?s, four?s; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or ma malakat aimanakum that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.You even a blind person can see who Allah is talking about.
And in the following ayah?s you can again see who Allah is referring to from the contexts
004.005
TO THOSE WEAK of understanding make not over your property, which Allah hath made a means of support for you, BUT FEED AND CLOTHE them therewith, and speak to them words of kindness and justice?
004.006
Make trial of orphans UNTIL THEY REACH THE AGE OF MARRIAGE; if then ye find sound judgment in them, release their property to them; but consume it not wastefully, nor in haste against their growing up. If the guardian is well-off, Let him claim no remuneration, but if he is poor, let him have for himself what is just and reasonable. When ye release their property to them, take witnesses in their presence But all-sufficient is Allah in taking account.YOU ARE WRONG. 2's means two's. Not two.
2?S DOES MEAN TWO?S WHEN DID I SAY IT DOESN?T?
You said ?Thus you accept that you are a prejudiced poligamyst.?
No I don?t but I do accept you are an ass for calling me thus
Salaams.
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And can present a man without a wife, a woman without a husband or even children without a parent.
See Page 625 quranic dictionary, and lanes page 137-for a lot more clarification.
To see what Allah has said who he is referring to you have to look at the context whether children or women are the prime people Allah is referring to
- See one thing is you always refer to orphans as children. Why cannot be there an often who grow up to be of maritable age or some one who was orphaned at maritable age.
- When an orphan grows up to maritable age it does not mean they are not orphans any more.
- You basing the Widow/Orphan argument on the translation argument of Marry and Marry off which has to cleared.
2?S DOES MEAN TWO?S WHEN DID I SAY IT DOESN?T?
Twos means two at time brother. Not upto 2.
I was just being sarcastic back as you were to me.
I apologise.Jazzak Allah. Wassalam.
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Salaams Br.
You said
Twos means two at time brother. Not upto 2.Lets look at the ayah of what it is saying to do with numbering
004.003
(O mankind) If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly/fairly with the ALYATAMA/widows then Marry WOMEN of your choice, Two?s, three?s, four?s; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or ma malakat aimanakum that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.?O MANKIND? ? Talking to a lot of individual , or plurality of people.
But its telling each of them something whilst talking to the whole lot of them.
You can marry women of your choice two?s,three?s fours???..
This is being told to each member of mankind?
BUT NOTE THIS IS NOT AN EVRYDAY EVENT - IT I BELIEVE WAS ACCEPTABLE WHEN THERE WERE A LOT OF FEMALES , WHEREASE THE MALES -A LOT OF THEM PERISHED IN THE FIGHTING.So if it is applicable now or not is another quistion-i think.
However if I am wrong may Allah give me the understanding
But after careful study of this , I have concluded the above whether brothers here accept it or not , thats their bit.
The condition to test them if they are of marriageable age comes in ayah 46 , i.e. 3 ayate after your telling to marry them off, How come? The condition should come first if the first 3 ayah's ar talking about the orphans.
Lets see someone elses view- whom I honestly respect very much without naming them,This is his view
?I believe that although "ankehoo" can be interpreted as "marry" or "marry-off", I believe that "marry" is more appropriate. The "marry-off"
interpretation fails to explain the switch from ORPHANS to WOMEN in 43.A verse that perhaps can make it clear that there are two entities "yatama" and women and that "yatama" belong to "women" (i.e. the women are widows and the "yatama" are either their biological or adopted
Children) is verse 41274.127 "And they ask you for an opinion/clarification in the WOMEN, say
?The God decrees/clarifies concerning
(1) Them (F) and what is read/recited on you in the book concerning the ORPHANS (F and M) OF THE WOMEN (F) that you did not give them (F) what was written/dictated to them (F) and you desire that you marry them (F), and
(2) the weakened from the children (F and M), and that you take care of the orphans (F and M) with the just/equitable, and what you make/do from goodness, so that The God was/is with it knowledgeable."God Bless All.
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Salaamun alaikum mz357 and all,
PLEASE READ ALL OF THE FOLLOWING POST VERY CAREFULLY
Even if 44 is talking about orphaned women meaning widows, still you cannot say that the ayat is talking about "marry them" or "marry them off" based only on that information. To find out whether it means marry or marry off we have to look at the full ayat and the whole Al-Quran. There are three proofs that it means "marry them off" and not "marry them".
PROOF NUMBER 1
Firstly 44 says "by two's, three's, and four's", meaning in groups of two, three or four
44 And if you fear you can?t do justice to the orphans, then ?Marry off the women (orphans) who have agreed with you by two's by three's and by four's!? But if you fear that you will be unfair then only by one or what your right hand possessed, as this is better than getting into hardship.
No person normally marries 2 or 3 or 4 women in a group. However you can marry off groups of 2 or 3 or 4 women to 2 or 3 or 4 other men. The ayat is addressed to mankind meaning that it is addressed to all of us telling us what to do if any of us are in the situation of dealing with orphaned women or widows.
PROOF NUMBER 2
Secondly the word used for DOWERY in Al-Quran, implying that you have to marry, is always "UJURAHUNNA" and not "SADUQATIHINNA" which is used in 45 meaning INHERITANCE and not dowry, therefore clearly meaning MARRY OFF and not marry in 44.
45 And give the women their INHERITANCE willingly, and if they remit any of it to you of their own will, then you may take it with good feelings.
Waatoo alnnisaa SADUQATIHINNA nihlatan fa-in tibna lakum AAan shay-in minhu nafsan fakuloohu hanee-an maree-an
If Allah meant in 44 for us to marry the widows He would have used the word "UJURAHUNNA" in 45 meaning give them their dowry. However Allah uses the word "SADUQATIHINNA" for what we are supposed to give to the widows/orphaned women cearly meaning we are to MARRY THEM OFF and give them their INHERITANCE. Wherever Allah is talking about MARRY He uses the word "UJURAHUNNA" meaning dowry as in the following ayat
426 And whoever of you cannot afford to marry the believing independent women, then from the still dependant believing young women. God is more aware of your faith, some of you to each other. You shall marry them with the permission of their parents and give them their DOWRY in kindness; to be protected, not for illicit sex or taking lovers.
..................... fainkihoohunna bi-ithni ahlihinna waatoohunna UJURAHUNNA bialmaAAroofi muhsanatin ghayra masafihatin wala muttakhithati akhdanin fa-itha ohsinna fa-in atayna bifahishatin faAAalayhinna nisfu ma AAala almuhsanati mina alAAathabi
57 Today, the good things have been made lawful to you, and the food of those who have been given the Scripture is lawful for you, and your food is lawful for them; and the independent from the believing women, and the independent from the people of the Scripture before you, if you have given them their DOWRY, protected, chaste, and not seeking to take lovers.
..................... allatheena ootoo alkitaba min qablikum itha ataytumoohunna UJURAHUNNA muhsineena ghayra musafiheena wala muttakhithee akhdanin
3351 O prophet, We have made lawful for you the wives to whom you have already given their DOWRY (UJURAHUNNA)
6011 And there is no sin upon you to marry them, if you have paid their DOWRY (UJURAHUNNA) to them
?Ujurahunna? meaning ?their dowers? is consistently and exclusively used in the Quran for what a man gives a woman as a marriage portion in a normal marriage. This textual consistency leave one in no doubt that ?Saduqatihina? in verse 45 does not carry the meaning ?their dowers" but means "their inheritance". This is proved when we look at the context from 41 to 413, In this whole first part of chapter 4, Allah is talking about "inheritance".
PROOF NUMBER 3
Thirdly, in other places in Al-Quran Allah gives rules that clearly imply that a man can marry only one woman at a time. If you believe that 44 means marry more than one at a time then that clearly contradicts with all the other ayat. There is no word "except" in 44 implying that this ayat is the exception to the general rules in Al-Quran that clearly imply marry only one. Wrong meaning always leads to contradiction of ayat. Let us look at the other pertinent ayat in Al-Quran which give us the other rules
RULE #1 MARRY OFF THE SINGLE AMONG YOU
2433 And marry off those among you that are single, and the good from among your male and female servants. If they are poor, then God will grant them from His grace. And God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.
?Marry off those who are single among you..........? we are commanded by God to marry off the singles within the society. Marrying off the un-married means exactly what it says. Who do we marry off the unmarried to? If we marry them off to other ?married? people, then we are marrying off the ?unmarried? and the ?married? as well, so this causes a contradiction. Therefore, we can only marry off the ?unmarried? to other ?unmarried? men or women. Once any of these men or women has become married, they can?t be included by this verse anymore. So this ayat clearly shows that a man can marry only one woman.
RULE #2 DIVORCE MUST TAKE PLACE BEFORE ONE MAN MARRIES ANOTHER WOMAN
421 And if you wish to replace one wife instead of another, and you have given one of them a large amount, then do not take anything from it.
Replacing one wife instead of another means there is a pre-requisite of divorce before another marriage takes place.
When a married ?Muslim? marries a second wife, he would have broken the Quranic Rule#1 because he is already married and he also would have broken Rule#2 because he did not take a wife instead of another (divorce then marriage).
RULES OF INHERITANCE
Also if you study the ayat that give the rules of inheritance, nowhere is it mentioned how to divide the inheritance among two or more wives if the husband dies. Following are the ayat
48 For the men is a portion from what the parents and the relatives left behind, and for the women is a portion from what the parents and relatives left behind, be it little or much; a forced portion.
49 And if the distribution is attended by the relatives and the orphans and the needy, then you shall give them part of it and say to them a kind saying.
410 And what if it was them who had left behind them a weak progeny, would they not be concerned for them? Let them revere God and let them say what is appropriate.
411 Those who consume the money of the orphans illicitly, in fact they are consuming fire in their bellies, and they will endure the Blaze.
412 God directs you regarding the inheritance of your children "To the male shall be as that given to two females. If they are only females and more than two, then they will have two thirds of what is inherited. And if there is only one female, then she will have one half, and to his parents each one of them one sixth of what is inherited if he has children. If he has no children and his parents are the heirs, then to his mother is one third; if he has siblings then to his mother is one sixth. All after a will is carried through or a debt. Your parents and your children, you do not know which is closer to you in benefit, a directive from God, God is Knowledgeable, Wise."
413 And for you is half of what your wives leave behind if they have no children; but if they have a child then to you is one quarter of what they leave behind. All after a will is carried through or a debt. And to them is one quarter of what you leave behind if you have no child; but if you have a child then to them is one eighth of what you leave behind. All after a will is carried through or a debt. And if a man or a woman has no one, but has a brother or sister, then to each one of them is one sixth, but if they are more than this then they are to share in one third. All after a will is carried through or a debt, which does not cause harm. A directive from God, and God is Knowledgeable, Compassionate.
414 These are God's limits, and whoever obeys God and His messenger, He will admit him to gardens with rivers flowing beneath, eternally abiding therein. This is the greatest victory.God is never Forgetful. In the above inheritance verses, there no mention that if a man has two wives/spouses or more, they share a quarter or any other portion. The portion of the daughters if there are two or more (and no sons) is two-thirds (412), after legacies or debts. When there is no ascendants or descendants, the brothers and sisters share in a third if they are more than two, after legacies or debts. If there are no children, the spouse inherits the quarter of the husband's inheritance, after legacies or debts (413). Verse 413 only makes concise perfect sense when there is no polygamy, otherwise if a man has 4 wives, what will each wife get after legacies or debts? DID THE GOD FORGET THIS SITUATION????
Now let us examine 4127
4127 And they seek a ruling regarding the women, Say "God will give you a ruling regarding them and what is being recited to you in the Scripture regarding the orphaned women/widows whom you wish to marry off, but have not given them what was decreed for them; as well as the weak from the children That you stand for the orphans in equality." Whatever good you do, then God is aware of it.
The only other place in the Scripture regarding ruling about orphaned women/widows is 44 and 45. The above ayat is saying ".....but have not given them what was decreed for them...." What was decreed in 45? it was "SADUQATIHINNA" meaning "INHERITANCE" and not "UJURAHUNNA" meaning "DOWRY". So in 4127 also Allah is clearly talking about MARRYING OFF the orphaned women/widows because He is alluding to their INHERITANCE and not DOWRY.
All of the above arguements abundantly prove that the only way we can have consistency throughout Al-Quran without any contradiction is to take the meaning of "MARRY OFF" in 44 and 4127 and not "MARRY".
For further details please see the following article
http//www.geocities.com/yaseen_q/polygamy.html
Regards,
Tanveer
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then Marry WOMEN of your choice,
What happened to women's choice ? The verse sounds very much sexist if its translated like that.
peace
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Salaamun alaikum,
Quote
then Marry WOMEN of your choice,What happened to women's choice ? The verse sounds very much sexist if its translated like that.
Brother Shams you look at the mistranslation of the verse and say it does not make sense. Of course the wrong meaning will not make sense. The correct meaning is as follows
44 And if you fear you can?t do justice to the orphans, then marry off the orphaned women/widows who have agreed with you to by two, by three and by four. But if you fear that you will be unfair then (marry off) by one or what your right hand possessed as this is better than getting into hardship.
Original arabic ............ ............
44 ......."ma taba lakum"....... This is taken as "who has become good to you" or "who are lawful to you" or "of your choice". It can be proved that these interpretations are against the Quran and create contradiction. The women in question are fully qualified from the Quran and do not need an additional attribute. The Quran is its own dictionary. Please note that the verb "taba" is in the past tense as is in 45 (fa-in tibna lakum AAan shay-in minhu nafsan) though there is a subtle difference. In 45, these women are giving a part of what they are entitled to (saduqatihinna) of their own accord. In 44, they are also giving something but not physical They are giving their consent to the idea of marriage. "ma taba lakum" means to "who have agreed with you" (that they be married off). It could also be rendered as "who happily have consented with you" (that they be married off).
Please read my previous post on the meaning "marry off".
Regards,
Tanveer
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bro tanveer,
Its not that I dont understand ur point of view. Moreover I kinda agree with ur understanding. I am just trying to rais some very basic questions which relates to the previous understanding...
peace
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Salaams Br.Tanveermd,
you said
Firstly 44 says "by two's, three's, and four's", meaning in groups of two, three or fourIt doesn?t say that,but does say
004.003
(O mankind) If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly/fairly with the ALYATAMA/widows then Marry WOMEN of your choice, Two?s, three?s, four?s; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or ma malakat aimanakum that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.Here to me it clearly means up to two,up to three,up to four. As Allah with his infinite knowledge is speaking to a crowd and had he been speaking to a single person then you would indeed be right .
Your misunderstanding here
According to Quranic Dictinary SADUQATIHINNA, UJURAHUNNA both mean dowry see pages 310 and 11 respectively.
According to Lanes see pages 1667 and 24 respectively.Thanks.
Bro. you are mistranslating
Not you or anyone has a right to marry off anybody without their consent but you no doubt have the right to marry when and if you want.
And to me the remainder of your post is easily undone just as here with viable proofs .
No offence but what you are trying your level best to do change certain commands to fit your belief is beyond anyone.
Sorry if I spoilt your tonight.
And God willing i will go through the remainder of your post if you like it.
My Salaams.
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Salaamun alaikum mz357
you said
Firstly 44 says "by two's, three's, and four's", meaning in groups of two, three or fourIt doesn?t say that,but does say
004.003
(O mankind) If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly/fairly with the ALYATAMA/widows then Marry WOMEN of your choice, Two?s, three?s, four?s; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or ma malakat aimanakum that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.Here to me it clearly means up to two,up to three,up to four. As Allah with his infinite knowledge is speaking to a crowd and had he been speaking to a single person then you would indeed be right .
Nowhere does it say UPTO 2, UPTO 3, UPTO 4. Two's, three's, four's clearly means groups of 2, 3, or 4. Allah addressing mankind means He is telling ANY OF US what to do in this situation, when ANY OF US has widows under one's care. It still does not change the meaning of two's, three's, four's, it still means groups of 2, 3, or 4 and not UPTO 2, 3, 4.
Your misunderstanding here
According to Quranic Dictinary SADUQATIHINNA, UJURAHUNNA both mean dowry see pages 310 and 11 respectively.
According to Lanes see pages 1667 and 24 respectively.Thanks.
The meaning of a word in Al-Quran is defined by how it is used in Al-Quran. EVERYWHERE where Allah talks about marrying someone He uses UJURAHUNNA to mean dowry. Dictionary can have both words meaning the same but we have to see how Al-Quran uses the words and derive the meaning according to context. If you read 41 to 413 the context is clearly INHERITANCE
Let us look at the overall picture of verses 44-7 in relation to the verses before 42-3 and the verses 48 and onwards from the topic in question. I put emphasis on "inheritance" or "dowry" depending on the verse and the scenario
Scenario1 Marrying off and "saduqatihinna"= orphaned women?s inheritance
42 (humanity origins)
43 (inheritance)
44 (Marrying off)
45 (inheritance)
46 (inheritance)
47 (inheritance)
48 onwards (inheritance)Scenario2 Marrying and "saduqatihinna"=dowry
42 (humanity origins)
43 (inheritance)
44 (Marrying)
45 (dowry)
46 (inheritance)
47 (inheritance)
48 onwards (inheritance)The odd one out can easily be spotted.
When "saduqatihinna" is taken as inheritance (as it should), there is consistency of topics in verses 43-7 and the following verses (from 48 ). The audience and its role in verses 43-7 is also the same; that is Carers responsible for the welfare and the financial affairs of the orphans. However when the meanings ?marry? and ?dowers? are taken, we find the audience switches from carers in 43 to husbands/grooms in 44-5, then it switches back again to carers in 46-7!
Bro. you are mistranslating
Not you or anyone has a right to marry off anybody without their consent but you no doubt have the right to marry when and if you want.
I am not the one mistranslating but you are. Looks like you have not read my post to Shams. I quote again from my post
Quote
then Marry WOMEN of your choice,What happened to women's choice ? The verse sounds very much sexist if its translated like that.
Brother Shams you look at the mistranslation of the verse and say it does not make sense. Of course the wrong meaning will not make sense. The correct meaning is as follows
44 And if you fear you can?t do justice to the orphans, then marry off the orphaned women/widows who have agreed with you to by two, by three and by four. But if you fear that you will be unfair then (marry off) by one or what your right hand possessed as this is better than getting into hardship.
Original arabic ............ ............
44 ......."ma taba lakum"....... This is taken as "who has become good to you" or "who are lawful to you" or "of your choice". It can be proved that these interpretations are against the Quran and create contradiction. The women in question are fully qualified from the Quran and do not need an additional attribute. The Quran is its own dictionary. Please note that the verb "taba" is in the past tense as is in 45 (fa-in tibna lakum AAan shay-in minhu nafsan) though there is a subtle difference. In 45, these women are giving a part of what they are entitled to (saduqatihinna) of their own accord. In 44, they are also giving something but not physical They are giving their consent to the idea of marriage. "ma taba lakum" means to "who have agreed with you" (that they be married off). It could also be rendered as "who happily have consented with you" (that they be married off).
If you marry the women OF YOUR CHOICE then what about the CHOICE OF THE WIDOWS under your care ??? You marry them forcibly without THEIR CONSENT even if they do not want to be married to you ???
And then if you take the meaning of 44 as marry more than one then how would you resolve the contradictions it creates according to my PROOF NUMBER 3 ?
Regards,
Tanveer
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Salaams Tanveer,
you said
If you marry the women OF YOUR CHOICE then what about the CHOICE OF THE WIDOWS under your care ??? You marry them forcibly without THEIR CONSENT even if they do not want to be married to you ???Its not women of your choice but rather who consent/agree aswell.
Taba = agreeble/lawful/good. qd p348.
Tibna= of their(women's)own free will and being good to you.
both words are related with the same root,thus indicating simerlarity.So Allah isn't asking us to enforce it.
But on the other hand if you say "marry off"
It would be an order and no one does such a thing to my knowledge.
Simply we don't have a right to marry off others but you do have a God given right to get married yourself if you so choose to.
God Bless.
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Salaamun alaikum mz357,
On one hand you say that "fainkihoo ma taba lakum min alnisa" translates as "marry women of your choice"
004.003
(O mankind) If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly/fairly with the ALYATAMA/widows then Marry WOMEN of your choice, Two?s, three?s, four?s; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or ma malakat aimanakum that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.On the other hand in your last post you say it means marry off and does NOT mean women of your choice (that is what I was saying too and you are agreeing with me)
Its not women of your choice
Taba = agreeble/lawful/good. qd p348.
Tibna= of their(women's)own free will and being good to you.
both words are related with the same root,thus indicating simerlarity.So Allah isn't asking us to enforce it.
But on the other hand saying "marry off"
becomes an order and no one does such a thing to my knowledge.
Simply we don't have a right to marry off others.But only if they wan't to be married.
You are clearly contradicting yourself !!!
You are the one who kept translating "fainkihoo ma taba lakum min alnisa" as "marry women of your choice" and I disagreed with that and said it means "marry off women who have agreed with you" or "marry off women who have consented with you". This is what I had written in my posts
"ma taba lakum" means to "who have agreed with you" (that they be married off). It could also be rendered as "who happily have consented with you" (that they be married off).
44 And if you fear you can?t do justice to the orphans, then marry off the orphaned women/widows who have agreed with you to by two, by three and by four. But if you fear that you will be unfair then (marry off) by one or what your right hand possessed as this is better than getting into hardship.
So what do you really think is the correct translation of 44?, the one I quoted or the one you quoted multiple times in your earlier posts and then contradicted it in your last post.