Quran's shariah and it's applicability
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Salaams All,
'The meaning of 'Al Anfal' has been the center of debate for as long as there had been history books (Arabic history books)!
Now those who have translated the word 'Al Anfal' as the 'spoils of war', they didn't do any work except take what some history books said. What did some of the history books say about it? They said that the whole Surah of 'Al Anfal'was actually about the famous Battle of Bader and that it was even called 'The Surah of Bader'! The story goes that some of the Mujahedeen (Fighters for the sake of Allah) argued about how to share the spoils, so they went asking Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). The answer came from Allah starting with this Ayah They ask you regarding the spoils of war..Books which were concerned about the linguistic side said that 'Al Anfal' cannot be limited to one historical event The Battle of Bader. And since the Quran is timeless, 'Al Anfal' can be applied at any time and to many different situations especially when the word 'Al Anfal' literally means extra things, more than one needs, or what one volunteers, or fortunes or lands or places that have no known owner.
I don't know about 'Additional Benefits', or 'Profits' or 'Gift' though! Maybe what Brother MQuran means by 'Gift' is Qurban! Like when one donates something as a Qurban LeEllah something that one would give in order to be closer and get acceptance from Allah.
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peace be upon you Lotetree,
here are two threads on this forum that have discussed this topic in the past, I think they might give you some insight on chapter 8 as they did for me http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1042&highlight=spoils
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=938 -
So where is your argument against FREEDOM and LIBERTY?
But lets end this it is not going anywhere....
Fantastic!!! I promise it is going to end soon. But don?t sweat and get sidetracked and go off-tangent mate, I?ve yet to accomplish the ?argument? part that you so desire and have the forum members to witness for themselves. I misquoted your sentence ?INTENTIONALLY? to TEACH YOU A LESSON that you requested by the very game you play. Patience lad, you?re on ?check? and soon to be ?check-made? (EXPOSED), if you know the rules of chess. wink
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Greetings,
Yeah it invites all faiths including athiests, but to what? DUH! Read again
and don't just blab....erm to discuss GOD and RELIGION FREELY, duh!!! -)
Hmmm... you really don't read well... Check it out again...
"This website invites all people of various beliefs (Sunni, Shia, Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Bahai, Agnostic, Humanist, and even Atheists) to come and examine for themselves the system of Submission/Islam which is based on God Alone."
Understood? The point is not to discuss God, although that could be discussed anyway, but the system of Submission/Islam based on God Alone. That's the focus of invitation.
In any case, you only see things as you wish and go on debating with people, instead of understanding what they meant and then proceding to debate it, ... duh! )
You must QUESTION EVERYTHING FOR YOU TO BE FREE-MINDS!
And who the hell are you to tell me this? If I didn't question, then I would follow any Tom, Dick or Harry, or I would start worshiping you!
Anwar AzimI told you so that WE CAN ALL FREELY SAY "And who the hell are you to tell me this?" -)
Regards,
No further comments, unless I choose to. That's my freedom to choose and it is I who is to excercise it. )
Anwar Azim
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Peace
I wish peace and salvation to all...
there are a lot of examples that seemingly indicates that not all of the Book`s details are directed to all the people of all the times....i would like to be proven otherwise by those who believe that all the details are stricly applying to all communities, other then original arab recipients....I could surely be wrong and those examples may not stay valid upon exposition of a more correct translation or more appropriate cross- referencing, understanding or whatever....
Here`s one for a start....
In 492 the believers are ordered, if it happens that one of them kill another by chance, that his duty is to pay "blood-money" AND to free a slave(or whatever i am not 100% sure of the corectness of that transaltion)...
However the precise amount is not decreed(correct me if i am wrong) and it is seemingly presumed or understood that the original recipients already know the exact amount that is to be paid, and imo this is a potential indicator that all the book`s details are only for a certain cultural milieu or community...and that its general principles might be diferently elaborated or applied into life in different cultures or circumstances
best wishes
Zlatan
any takers?
best wishes, Zlatan
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Also mq and others, where`s the list of ashurul hurumu/rstricted/sacred/forbiden months/fool moons/ or whatever?
in 9/36-38 the practice of declaring some "ashuru/months/or whatever" as not forbiden is condemned as desacrating or allowing what The God has made sacred/forbiden/restricted...
However, where The God has made these things forbiden/restricted/sacred? Surely not in the 'Quran'...at least not in any translation available...
these problems might be signs that the book is intended only for a certain social milieu, culture, time or similar, or the sign of incompletenss of the scripture...and the later is almost the same as former ... a mere variant of it...
best wishes, Zlatan
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Salaamun alaikum Zlatan,
Also mq and others, where`s the list of ashurul hurumu/rstricted/sacred/forbiden months/fool moons/ or whatever?
in 9/36-38 the practice of declaring some "ashuru/months/or whatever" as not forbiden is condemned as desacrating or allowing what The God has made sacred/forbiden/restricted...
However, where The God has made these things forbiden/restricted/sacred? Surely not in the 'Quran'...at least not in any translation available...There is no 'list of months', that's up to those in power. As for 'what the God has made forbidden', you seem to have forgotten the word 'iddat' there or number. Allah has made the iddat of haraam months as 4.
these problems might be signs that the book is intended only for a certain social milieu, culture, time or similar, or the sign of incompletenss of the scripture...and the later is almost the same as former ... a mere variant of it...
Prior to this, you have mentioned that you've made mistakes before. So it's possible that your current perception may be erroneous now. How do WE know YOU'RE not wrong, please ?
mq i would like if you could adress some of my questions posed at the thread above
Would you mind cutting and pasting the questions so I know which ones specifically, please ?
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salaamun alaikum mq!
Salaamun alaikum Zlatan,
There is no 'list of months', that's up to those in power.
how do you mean theres no list? i dont think i have understood you..can you explain more?
there are certain ashuru/months/whatever where it is forbiden for us to fight...right? and you are telling me now we do not know when these months are?
arent this telling you these restrictions are not meant for us?
best wishes
Zlatan
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Salaam Mujahid !
these problems might be signs that the book is intended only for a certain social milieu, culture, time or similar, or the sign of incompletenss of the scripture...and the later is almost the same as former ... a mere variant of it...
Prior to this, you have mentioned that you've made mistakes before. So it's possible that your current perception may be erroneous now. How do WE know YOU'RE not wrong, please ?
i dont know....i dont claim i am 100% right or right at all...btw i wasnt mentioning my errors alone... but those of other as well....which maybe may not occur was it not for 'the fact' that Quran`s application is culturaly conditioned...
mq i would like if you could adress some of my questions posed at the thread above
Would you mind cutting and pasting the questions so I know which ones specifically, please ?
There are few questions in the first post to begin with? i would rather not to repeat the whole post because it might be contra policy of this site and i feel the questions would lost the proper context and meanings if i am to single them out of the post?.. ?.the post is relatively short? i would like you to read the whole of the first post under the link together with the questions within it before answering ?.
Best wishes , Zlatan
p.s. also try to find the answer to the ransom/blood-pay question and a misterious absence of it being defined
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how do you mean theres no list? i dont think i have understood you..can you explain more?
there are certain ashuru/months/whatever where it is forbiden for us to fight...right? and you are telling me now we do not know when these months are?
arent this telling you these restrictions are not meant for us?
It all depends on when you begin the peace treaty. If al-quraan was meant for the career of the prophet alone, then yes, a specific set of months is necessary.
Of course, if we all just sit in cyberspace, we will not experience the ayaat for ourselves and of course it wont apply to us. Should we then blame al-quraan ?
Are you telling that those in power should decide which month is forbidden/haram and which is not?
After they have subdued the mischief makers, yes.
i dont know....i dont claim i am 100% right or right at all...btw i wasnt mentioning my errors alone... but those of other as well....which maybe may not occur was it not for 'the fact' that Quran`s application is culturaly conditioned...
Your inference that al-quraan's application is 'culturally conditioned' may be an error as well, correct ? In fact, in 1999 you were very much pro-19, right? It was in ropelist and I remember having to post you the same sort of questions about criteria. The following year, you became the foremost anti-19er in cyberspace. So how we know this is not one of your 'change of hearts' ?
There are few questions in the first post to begin with i would rather not to repeat the whole post because it might be contra policy of this site and i feel the questions would lost the proper context and meanings if i am to single them out of the post.. .the post is relatively short i would like you to read the whole of the first post under the link together with the questions within it before answering
Ok, i'll do that, but since i've already answered your previous questions, perhaps you'll do me the courtesy (if that's also applicable in your new set of ahkaam) of answering my questions
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Is there any evidence from al-quraan that any part of it is suited only to a certain culture? If there is, bring it forward please.
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How do you find out about 'certain cultural conditions'. Please give me your source documentation and the proof that this source documentation is authentic. What determines your criteria of authenticity.
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Which laws are specifically repugnant to you ? How did you arrive at that conclusion that it was THOSE laws specifically which are repugnant and not any other laws? Do you expect everyone to have the same criteria of repugnance ?
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in 9/36-38 the practice of declaring some "ashuru/months/or whatever" as not forbiden is condemned as desacrating or allowing what The God has made sacred/forbiden/restricted...
Peace
It seems that i havent throroughly enough pay attention to some of the grammar details of 936-38
What is ?hu? in yuhilloonahu wa yuharrimoonahu(9/37) reffering to? To ?an-nasiiu? or to some of the ashuru/months/moons individually(i wonder is this rendering gramaticaly possible at all?-cause theres no mention of individual month/moon previously)or to something else?
I am also confused about the gender of shahr and/or ashuru? in 9/36 by reffering to it with feehinna it seems its gender is feminine?however from 2217 it may be inferred that its masculine?
p.s.
All that i can conclude that its very hard to follow and understand the document in the language you do not understand?.?Quran? which is supposed to be clear, (some also say easy), guiding and unifying book seems( i surely might be wrong) to be quite an opposite?unclear, vague, hard to understand, misdirecting, dividing and all that solely because we have no good translation available?.and this is one of the reasons for considering it not intended for our time?at leats not all of its details?.
Best wishes, Zlatan
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Zlatan, your refusal to answer my questions shows me what an utter fraud you are
You know as well as I do , Allah tells us to judge according to the book and not follow our base desires (5/48 ). He did not tell us to wipe out bits from his book and call it 'irrelevant except for a specific cultural milleu'. If He did, He would have said so. He uses words like 'arab' , 'arab of the desert' , 'except what is past' etc but funnily doesn't use them in these cases.
I try my best not to be so arrogant to try to teach God about His book. If I were also on one side of the 19 issue in one year and became a fanatical anti-19er the following year , I would not presume that I know it all either. I have my own experience about this fanaticism when I was fanatical about Hajj in Mecca. Boy did God teach me a lesson a few years after shock These days, I just try to calm down and trust the book.
Aside from this forbidden months issue, which should be on a seperate thread, I havent got everything worked out but how I know that that's the books fault ? How much time I do spend studying AND PRACTISING the book ? However, the beauty of the book is, it tells me to continously seek more information from my Rabb (20/114). It doesn't tell me to dismiss certain portions of the book because I think I'm too clever for it. Even worse, when I've done nothing for the deen and am a practising virtua-muslim instead of one who is practising iqaamudeen in real life.
Having said all this, anyone is free to believe anything they choose. If you want to tear out certain pages, that's up to you. No one can know if you're doing it sincerely or otherwise except Allah.
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hello Mujahid i wish you the best-salvation and succes
though i find your approach far from perfect and most appropriate i nevertheless thanks you for a stimulating discusion...plus, i am a kind sympathetic with your view however i think your stance is lacking in proofs...or better said in palpable proofs ?you may be well right however unable to demonstrate it fully?.it would be nice if you can do it for me or solve my dilemas....i would accept it wholeheartedly....and i would find myself eternally indebted to you?.but if you are not able its okay with me...thanks also for a retrospective of my beliefs and behaviour and a feedback on it?
please do have patience with me and allow more for answers....i am not so good net communicator and not so good communicator in general.....this particularly because i have a lot of job to do but primarily or most of all because english is not a language that i speak each day or use it for communication........its far from being convenient for me to communicate in english....my english is poor and choice of words narrowed ....and it takes me great pain to formulate my thoughts and express my views in english even with an approximate precisseness...(maybe thats why you misunderstood my writing or, as it seems to me, assumed a lot of blasphemy or inncorect assumptions on my part......)...that being said it would took me great pain in answering all the questions directed to me at the net....was it not for the goal to find the truth i would never posed questions at all or communicated through the net...my net communication would brought me more harm than benefit then....even if i do not answer your questions i think there is some use of my writings in this thread..... at least i have pointed to some of contradictions and questions that need to be solved before puting an absolute trust in the book or before puting 100% of its details in practice...some of your questions were already answered indirectly in my writing, without you noticing it...besides its not true that you have answered my previous questions...first of all you havent answered the question in regards of amount of blood-money in the case if belever kill a believer by mistake/unintentionaly...why the book lacks it?is it incomplete or culturaly conditioned or simply not translated correctly?
Besides all above sometimes i am so dissapointed with the comments of the people who are discusing with me in a measure that i lost my motivation for any futher discussion....for example when someone interpret that the book is in arabic, not because its a mother/speaking tongue of recipients, but because The God`s teaching couldnt be detaily expounded in any other language, i see no further purpose discussing with such a person...(of course this assumption of mine is not necessarilly correct or productive) but it takes me few days that to realise it...
here are your questions.... and my answers
MQ1. Is there any evidence from al-quraan that any part of it is suited only to a certain culture? If there is, bring it forward please.
Zlatan As I have ALREADY said i am not sure if there's such an evidence....for now there are some indicators that might be interpreted or understood as such....however that interpretation might be wrong...for example i have mentioned to you the verse that say(427) "and thus we have inspired to you an arabic reading that you warn the capital town and those around it?"
the other ?evidence? is that the book is in arabic... and that messengers are being sent in the language of its recipients(144)....you have gave a very weak explanation to this....and seemingly( i emphasise seemingly) by not following your(or the books') own criteria of understanding the book...
In resolving the arguments that me or anyone else propose of in regards of the authenticity of the book we must respect the rules set by the book itself?.any argument can be disproved or proved if the discutants are allowed to interpret?again, i emphasise, the error may be on my part being not enough good student or knower of Arabic or of the rules of understanding/interpretating?.
An example more of your error and inconsistency is that you believe that from anything anything we earn(not only in war) we must give 1 fifth in the God`s purposes?however you have disregarded the context?warfare ? if the same rule is to be applied then you would must fight any disbeliever you ever meet? based on 9/29?.where believers are ordered to fight those who do not believe and do not applie the faith until they pay tribute(interestingly enough there is an alternative translation to it which might be more correct?.maybe another time ill comment about it)
MQ 2. How do you find out about 'certain cultural conditions'. Please give me your source documentation and the proof that this source documentation is authentic. What determines your criteria of authenticity.
We need not to go any further from this very book- the book we are stydying itself...for example.. a cultural condition No 1 would be that the culture that is to uphold it must understand its language...or at least one man should understand it and all others should understand the language of that man?
whatever we are not obliged to know everything about original conditions of the revelation in order to dismiss a precept....it is enough to see that it is not applicable in our conditions...or that there is greater harm of upholding something in comparision to not upholding....
of course there is a lot of place here for abusing or excuses for not following something just because someone subjectively does not like something...however the excuses can not be destroyed .. they will always exist?even in the case of your theory?.at the end of the comment to this question i am not sure "cultural" is a most correct or appropriate word to express what was on my mind...
MQ3. Which laws are specifically repugnant to you ? How did you arrive at that conclusion that it was THOSE laws specifically which are repugnant and not any other laws? Do you expect everyone to have the same criteria of repugnance ?
i am not sure is there any law that is a repugnant to me....i dont think its an appropriate word...but i think that there might be some verdicts that are redundant, not aplicable or such as would do more harm than if not upholded at all...
As i conclude from your writing you also believe similar to me that we are not to apllie every word to the letter and in any or every situation...
for example you told to Born-again that 24 1-2 doesnt reffer to him if he has no means to conduct the punishement...that is if theres no helpers to catch the offenders and ensure their punishement
If this is the case then i do not understand your objections to my theory?
Also if i am not mistaken you are of opinion that we might be guided even without the book?whats the point then in following the book??particularly why follow something whose translation you are far from being sure of and, as proven each day, has a great deal of big mistakes, if you can be guided solely by your instinct?
(This is a place/problem/dillema which introduces potential contradiction into the book?we need not the book to be guided,(many people believe this is the book
s stance) or, many people haven?t received or does not recieve the book during their lifetime(this is a fact isnt it?), and on the other side the book is the only guide(some of the books passages might be interpreted this way)?..i stil haven?t found a good explanation to this?.)I also think you would agree that there might be several different forms which could satisfy or fulfill the essence or purpose to be attained which was on the God's mind or behind certain specific ruling, worded in a specific wording or form....
I think it is incorrect to think of, as you say 'al-quran'(though some here consider it idolater's practice), as a simple compilation of isolated sentences and verdicts?its summ is greater than whole and its summ, which is of 3-d nature can even contradict its particular verdicts which are of 2-d or even 1-d nature?.thats because the fact that out of the proper context and appropriate circumstances even the sayings of The Almighty might be misleading?.
so much for this post...
best wishes
Zlatan
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I havent got everything worked out but how I know that that's the books fault ?
In the meantime do you go naked around or perhaps with a leaf covering the genitalia?
Or you have yourself prescribed a hukm/law for you and your wife in regards of clothing ? A kind of sunnah?
Excuse deeply the potential brutality of the question but it is of an essential importance to answer that question, if not to me than to your very self...