Verson of the Quran

centi50

Salam to all,

I see the Warsh and HAFS versions and the differences. Now my question is which Quran did God reveal the Warsh or the HAFS verson. Can't be both for sure.

May God bless you all

Wakas

peace,

It was recently discussed here
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9612827.0

Layth wrote an article here
https//www.free-minds.org/sites/default/files/WhichQuran.pdf

My view is that it is likely impossible to know for certain which is the original, or neither. The variance is not that much anyway.
What we can do however is to read, study and engage with the content of the various versions of Quran and go with what is best.
To my knowledge there has been minimal intra-Quran analysis to minimise the variance. Member Nun discussed it here sometimes with results.

Also it is interesting to ponder over three points not commonly considered

what Quran actually claims will be guarded i.e. it is al thikr in 159. Most take this to mean al quran, but does it?
since Arabic writing at the time did not have vocalisation/tashkeel it is possible to recite it in multiple ways - as long as one bears in mind this - but is that a problem or a blessing? What if the text is static but can allow for dynamic/flexible meaning - to some degree - to suit different situations/cultures/times/etc?
even if there was only one version of Quran in the entire world with no variance whatsoever the question would remain - is it from God or not?

How you go about answering the 3rd question will help put your question into perspective.

Anoushirvan

Also it is interesting to ponder over three points not commonly considered

what Quran actually claims will be guarded i.e. it is al thikr in 159. Most take this to mean al quran, but does it?

Peace,

Verse 15.9 is indeed among the most misunderstood verses of Qur'an.

First of all, it says that the "dhikr" / reminder is preserved, not "Qur'an".
Whether the dhikr equates to Qur'an is another question.

But more important here

Verse 15.9 is a rhetorical answer to the rhetorical objection made in verses 15.6 and 15.7 by the opponents of the Qur'an's messenger to his preaching.

Their objection was
156 And they said "O you upon whom the reminder has been sent down, you are crazy."
157 "Why not bring us the angels if you are of the truthful ones?"

To which, the answer is
158 We do not send down the angels except with the truth, and then they would have no more delay.
159 It is We who have sent down the reminder, and it is for Us to preserve it.

So basically, the objection says that if the Qur'an messenger was to be sent down the dhikr, he would have been accompagnied by angels.
The reason is that, according to various verses in Qur'an, the opponents to the Qur'an's messenger believed that salvation would come through intermediate entities, notably angels.

The answer to that objection in Qur'an is basically that if angels would come, punishment for the deniers would be immediate without delay for "tawba", i.e. delay for return or repent.
And that anyway, sending down the dhikr, therefore salvation, is the sole responsibility of God , not the responsibility of His messenger.
This is the correct meaning of the Arabic expression lahu laḥāfiẓūna sending down the dhikr is sole responsibility (hafiz) of God.

In verse 15.9, even if the dhikr equate to Qur'an, it is never said that dhikr will be preserved through humans knowing it by heart.
Nowhere in Qur'an you will see that Qur'an will be preserved because humans know it by heart.
This would even be totally contradictory with the general spirit of Qur'an.

There is no basis in Qur'an alone for it to be preserved by a muttawatir tradition, even if it has actually been the case.

good_logic

Peace all.

Qoran clearly states that Qoran is the dhikr-Reminder- .i.e it reminds all the generations till the end of time

"Wa Hada Dhikr Mubarakun Anzalnahu..."- This( Qoran) is a blessed Dhikrun / reminder that We have sent down-

"Saad Wa Al Qoran DhI al Dhikr"-Qoran that contains the reminder-

"Wa Qalu Ya Ayyuha Alladi Nuzzila Alaihi AL Dhikr Innnaka Lamajnoon...." -They Said Oh you who has received the Reminder/Qoran or confirmed with Qoran..., you are crazy-...And many more verses clarifying this fact.

As for this verse
158 We do not send down the angels except with the truth, and then they would have no more delay.

THis is saying that if Angels come down it means it is the end time for humanity , Judgement day will arrive

"Those who do not expect to meet us said, "If only the angels could come down to us, or we could see our Lord (we would then believe)!" Indeed, they have committed a gross arrogance, and have produced a gross blasphemy.
وَقالَ الَّذينَ لا يَرجونَ لِقاءَنا لَولا أُنزِلَ عَلَينَا المَلٰئِكَةُ أَو نَرىٰ رَبَّنا لَقَدِ استَكبَروا فى أَنفُسِهِم وَعَتَو عُتُوًّا كَبيرًا
The day they see the angels, it will not be good news for the guilty; they will say, "Now, we are irreversibly confined."
يَومَ يَرَونَ المَلٰئِكَةَ لا بُشرىٰ يَومَئِذٍ لِلمُجرِمينَ وَيَقولونَ حِجرًا مَحجورًا"

And
"The heaven will break apart, into masses of clouds, and the angels will descend in multitudes.
وَيَومَ تَشَقَّقُ السَّماءُ بِالغَمٰمِ وَنُزِّلَ المَلٰئِكَةُ تَنزيلًا
All sovereignty on that day belongs to the Most Gracious. For the disbelievers, it will be a difficult day.
المُلكُ يَومَئِذٍ الحَقُّ لِلرَّحمٰنِ وَكانَ يَومًا عَلَى الكٰفِرينَ عَسيرًا"

In other words Angels will not be sent with a reminder beforehand, human messenger does this.. If Angels play any role as messengers for humans they will appear in the shape and form of humans as they are from another world/dimension.
GOD bless you all.
Peace.

Anoushirvan

Peace all.

Qoran clearly states that Qoran is the dhikr-Reminder- .i.e it reminds all the generations till the end of time

"Wa Hada Dhikr Mubarakun Anzalnahu..."- This( Qoran) is a blessed Dhikrun / reminder that We have sent down-

"Saad Wa Al Qoran DhI al Dhikr"-Qoran that contains the reminder-

I don't think this is the correct interpretation.

Before Qur'an was preached for the first time in Arabia in the 7th CE, people wouldn't have known that Qur'an would be the dhikr.
But they would have known the concept of dhikr because it is a central concept in the past Scriptures, e.g. in the Gospels.

Dhikr, i.e. remembrance, in the past Scriptures meant that God would remember that the believers are under "fitna", awaiting salvation, and will redeem them.

Dhikr cannot be Qur'an as text, as evidence by this verse

21.7 And We sent not before thee other than men, whom We inspired. Ask the people of the Reminder (ahl al-dhikr) if you don't know.

Ahl al-dhikr cannot mean here people of Qur'an of course, but people of past Scriptures.

However, it is clear for the Qur'an's messenger that his message, therefore Qur'an, would signify that salvation is about to come for the believers, and in that sense, Qur'an is dhikr.

So in short, Qur'an is dhikr not by text but by purpose, and in a sense that was shared by people of the past Scriptures.