The Oath Style in Quranic Openings Are We Missing the Deeper Meaning...
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Thanks GL.
Also I want to add something more here.
Now think about this the Quran's language is Arabic but Arabic is not some divine or flawless language. It was the available human language at the time. So of course, God used the existing Arabic to send the message not because Arabic was perfect but because people could understand it.
That means the Arabic language had its own natural limits, variations, and gaps and I do not think God "fixed" the language or invented a new one just to communicate his words perfectly. That was never the point. The goal was to reform people guide them toward truth away from idol worship and injustice not to teach them divine linguistics.
My original question in this thread was about the style we see in verses like the opening of Chapter 52 especially the oaths and how translations tend to repeat inherited interpretations without asking new questions. And here is a practical example
Today I asked my Arabic speaking friend what the word المسجور means in the verse والبحر المسجور (526). I did not ask about the word al-bahr because that clearly means "the sea".
But المسجور he said it means "fire" probably because of sajara which is a common word here to light up. And sure enough I see some English translations saying "sea of fire". But when I use Google Translate, it says "imprisoned".
Now this is exactly what I was getting at.
This one word a key part of an oath by God is being translated as
sea full of fire
imprisoned sea
full or brimful
mixed waters
restrained or held back
So what are we really supposed to take from this?
Is God just swearing by random powerful images or are we supposed to reflect on something deeper? Are these just poetic devices or are they inviting us to uncover layers of meaning? And how much of what we believe today is shaped by translators who may have just copied what came before them?
Would love to hear how others especially Arabic speakers experience these verses. Do you find yourself influenced by past tafsir or do you try to read with a fresh mind?
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Peace Fusion.
Arabic is a rich language. Often dictionaries themselves give many different meanings for a word. So the context plays a very big role in translations.
GOD uses the rich Arabic language in the best way possible to convey His message/stories/information/laws...i.e all His words are formed to test the generations to keep pondering.
"Wama Yaakiluhu Illa Al Aalimoon","Wama Yadhakaru Illa Oulou Al Albab",... Li Qawmin Yaakilun", "Wa Li Yakulu Darasta"...i.e keep learning, thorough study, research and pondering, expertise... etc And seeking help /knowledge from the Lord the explainer of His words.An example of what you are talking about is in this verse 1312
He is the One who shows you the lightning as a source of fear, as well as hope, and He initiates the heavy/loaded clouds.
هُوَ الَّذى يُريكُمُ البَرقَ خَوفًا وَطَمَعًا وَيُنشِئُ السَّحابَ الثِّقالَWhy " The heavy clouds" instead of just clouds?
Our generation know a lot about how clouds form and how much they weigh... etc.
How much did the generation of earlier years of Qoran know?
So our understanding of that verse gives us a true fact - proven fact- that could not have been available for that first generation of Qoran.So, there are deeper meanings in a lot of verses that we have not found yet.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Thank you GL for your reply and the example you presented shows how some verses may become clearer with time.
I also agree that Arabic is a rich language and that the Quran encourages reflection and learning no issues on that understanding brother.But your reply also made me think more about something important.
When you say that some meanings are only now being understood like the heavy clouds example then it seems even you are saying you do not know for sure what some verses meant in the past. And that is completely fine.
In fact maybe that is the point i wanted to say....which is Maybe earlier generations understood those verses in the best way they could based on the knowledge and language they had. And that should be accepted. We should not be too hard on them for not seeing what we might see today ? They lived in a different world with different tools and realities.
So this brings me to a question for you and for others in this forum..
Did God allow His words to be understood differently by different generations based on human knowledge and context and intellect???
Or is there one single fixed meaning of every verse that is permanent and we just dont get it....until now?
Because if there is only one true meaning then it means everyone who understood it differently before was WRONG!!. But if meaning is allowed to grow then translation and interpretation are also part of the test.
Would love to hear what others think as well.
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Peace Fusion.
Even in each generation Qoran is interpreted in numerous different ways, sometimes to the point that many interpretations of certain same verses contradict from one individual/group to another.
Qoran itself gives this important point
" When they are asked, "What do you think of these revelations from your Lord," they say, "Tales from the past."
وَإِذا قيلَ لَهُم ماذا أَنزَلَ رَبُّكُم قالوا أَسٰطيرُ الأَوَّليOrنَ
Or
As for the righteous, when they are asked, "What do you think of these revelations from your Lord," they say, "Good." For those who lead a righteous life, happiness, and the abode of the Hereafter is even better. What a blissful abode for the righteous.
وَقيلَ لِلَّذينَ اتَّقَوا ماذا أَنزَلَ رَبُّكُم قالوا خَيرًا لِلَّذينَ أَحسَنوا فى هٰذِهِ الدُّنيا حَسَنَةٌ وَلَدارُ الـٔاخِرَةِ خَيرٌ وَلَنِعمَ دارُ المُتَّقينَAnd in between these extreme views there are many stages of understanding through the journeys of people.
Why did the second verse say " "As for the righteous"?
Well the righteous are the same in all generations. The basics of right morals /right conduct/good character and good behaviour never change. These two fundamental things stay the same throughout the human existence
1- Submission to GOD Alone and opposition / Non submission
2- The straight path and the Taghout/crooked path.The one religion of GOD- Be good, and peaceful do good and stay loyal to GOD Alone- never changes regardless of interpretations of event/stories ways even law changes to test the generations.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
You said the righteous are the same in every generation and already known. If that is the case then why was there a need to reveal the Quran at all??
Would that not mean the message was meant more for those still searching or unaware of the path...
And if understanding varies across time as you noted then it seems reasonable that some verses were meant to allow for that variation rather than point to one final fixed meaning, is not it?
Also then why blame traditional scholars for their understanding or for converging on one meaning in their time if that was the level of knowledge available to them?
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Peace Fusion.
Everything is known by GOD ,not us.
The righteous go through the test the same as others, they have to earn the right to be saved ,They listen to GOD s words and they decide/chose to follow the best path, i.e struggle against themselves-ego-and the opposition /human devils/distractions ...
Following GOD s message is a journey with ups and downs , those who persevere save themselves ,those who give up/revert fail their soul like those who oppose the message or ignore altogether.
The understanding has a criteria - honesty and sincerity-. GOD knows the innermost thoughts of everyone. How do we know the Traditional scholars motives? Where does their loyalty lean towards? Are they keeping to the clan/sect dogma and choosing to ignore GOD s clear path and instructions?
Understanding and guidance come from GOD and His words. GOD guides whom He wills- the sincere seeker- and misguides whom He will- those who have wrong motives, ignore, deliberately distort. openly oppose...etc
"La Yukallifa Allah Nafsan Illa Wusaaha"
i.e Do your best and understand what you can and keep going/persevering until GOD comes to your rescue. all one can do is be patient and keep the loyalty to GOD and pray to keep improving yourself and your life day by day to stay on the right path.GOD bless you.
Peace.. -
Peace Fusion.
Thank you also brother for all the past and present conversation with me.I will add a final ,very important point in Qoran
4060 " Your Lord says, "Implore Me, and I will respond to you...."
When we implore GOD, we are doing the right thing (1314), and He gives us what we implore Him for (1434). GOD is hearer of prayers (33. He rescues the needy, relieves adversity (2762), and answers prayers if He so wills (641, 1439).
He is with us wherever we may be (574, 587). and never despair (1555). GOD is Possessor of Infinite Grace (5721).He also gave us many examples of the best things to ask Him for, like
.."Our Lord, grant us righteousness in this world, and righteousness in the Hereafter, and spare us the retribution of Hell."
"My Lord, save me from the oppressive people."
"My Lord, grant me victory over these wicked people."
"May my Lord guide me in the right path."
"My Lord, increase my knowledge."
"My Lord, let me not be one of the transgressing people."
"My Lord, grant me wisdom, and include me with the righteous.
"Let the example I set for the future generations be a good one.
"Make me one of the inheritors of the blissful Paradise.
"And do not forsake me on the Day of Resurrection."
"My Lord, admit me an honorable admittance, and let me depart an honorable departure, and grant me from You a powerful support."
...and many more supplications for our help and support are given in Qoran/From me and you I ask our Lord for His help and support and
"Our Lord, we trust in You, and submit to You; to You is the final destiny.GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace to all
I wanted to open a discussion about a specific style found in the Quran especially in the opening verses of certain chapters where God seems to be taking an oath. For example, Chapter 52 verses 1 to 10 has this powerful start, but the real intent behind the words is not always easy to grasp at least for me.
وَٱلطُّورِ
وَكِتَٰبٍۢ مَّسْطُورٍۢ
فِى رَقٍّۢ مَّنشُورٍۢ
وَٱلْبَيْتِ ٱلْمَعْمُورِ
وَٱلسَّقْفِ ٱلْمَرْفُوعِ
وَٱلْبَحْرِ ٱلْمَسْجُورِ
إِنَّ عَذَابَ رَبِّكَ لَوَٰقِعٌۭ
مَّا لَهُۥ مِن دَافِعٍۢ
يَوْمَ تَمُورُ ٱلسَّمَآءُ مَوْرًۭا
وَتَسِيرُ ٱلْجِبَالُ سَيْرًۭاTake verse 526
Some have interpreted it to mean full of fire; Others say it means empty and unoccupied; Some think it refers to the sea being restrained like its water not sinking or overflowing; Others suggest it means a blend of sweet and salty waters; And some translate it as brimful and surgingAll these are very different, yet you will notice that most translators today still follow a similar explanation probably shaped by the interpretations set long ago. A few have stepped outside that frame, but very few.
This makes me wonder did the early community of Islam around the time of the Prophet really go deep into each word like this? Given their tough lives and limited tools and time did they try to explore each verse in detail? Or was the message of the Quran already clear and powerful enough i.e. warning against idol worship, guiding towards a just life reminding of judgment hell and paradise and that alone was enough to draw people to the truth?
Understanding the Quran deeply feels like a lifelong task. I see people like Jkhan here trying to re-translate some verses with a fresh approach which is good to see. But even then every attempt today is influenced by the knowledge, language, and environment we live in. Human understanding/intellect keeps evolving and perhaps another person 500 years from now may have a complete different view if he or she wants to translate on own.
By opening this thread I am not starting a debate but inviting a more profound reflection. I am asking everyone to share honestly when you read the Quran, whether you are an Arabic speaker or not, are you influenced by the understanding of others or do you try to ponder on your own?
Because Quran contains not just original Arabic words, contains Arabi languages means huge geography languages which they speak.Thats why book says this book Arabiyyen, that doesn’t say Arabic , for example in my country we read from Arabic to Turkish transcript. It says el mescur, means mixed, it doesn’t matter sweet or salt, or soury, because when you mixed it means to rise, to bloat, that doesn’t mean boiling. But the meals which we call translated book it gives meaning boiling, because the word doesn’t originally Arabic, it come from Latin word. Mescuar, mescur , or similar sound meshur / famous etc.
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Thanks GL.
Also I want to add something more here.
Now think about this the Quran's language is Arabic but Arabic is not some divine or flawless language. It was the available human language at the time. So of course, God used the existing Arabic to send the message not because Arabic was perfect but because people could understand it.
That means the Arabic language had its own natural limits, variations, and gaps and I do not think God "fixed" the language or invented a new one just to communicate his words perfectly. That was never the point. The goal was to reform people guide them toward truth away from idol worship and injustice not to teach them divine linguistics.
My original question in this thread was about the style we see in verses like the opening of Chapter 52 especially the oaths and how translations tend to repeat inherited interpretations without asking new questions. And here is a practical example
Today I asked my Arabic speaking friend what the word المسجور means in the verse والبحر المسجور (526). I did not ask about the word al-bahr because that clearly means "the sea".
But المسجور he said it means "fire" probably because of sajara which is a common word here to light up. And sure enough I see some English translations saying "sea of fire". But when I use Google Translate, it says "imprisoned".
Now this is exactly what I was getting at.
This one word a key part of an oath by God is being translated as
sea full of fire
imprisoned sea
full or brimful
mixed waters
restrained or held back
So what are we really supposed to take from this?
Is God just swearing by random powerful images or are we supposed to reflect on something deeper? Are these just poetic devices or are they inviting us to uncover layers of meaning? And how much of what we believe today is shaped by translators who may have just copied what came before them?
Would love to hear how others especially Arabic speakers experience these verses. Do you find yourself influenced by past tafsir or do you try to read with a fresh mind?
I don’t see fire in the ayah, if want to say fire should be use Narun.
Plus ayah talking about sea, normally when we look at sea , we can say, oh sea is calm. By the way we know that inside the see there is a movement. But mixing is different. Also our language contains some word from old Arabic word, which was people were using, 700 years ago. It come from Ottoman Empire . So we can use another word Turkish sea is a durgun, means Arabic raktadun راكدة Calm /sakin and durgun /stagnant. Similar for using for the sea, but if you are using for human it is different meaning.
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Peace Fusion.
Arabic is a rich language. Often dictionaries themselves give many different meanings for a word. So the context plays a very big role in translations.
GOD uses the rich Arabic language in the best way possible to convey His message/stories/information/laws...i.e all His words are formed to test the generations to keep pondering.
"Wama Yaakiluhu Illa Al Aalimoon","Wama Yadhakaru Illa Oulou Al Albab",... Li Qawmin Yaakilun", "Wa Li Yakulu Darasta"...i.e keep learning, thorough study, research and pondering, expertise... etc And seeking help /knowledge from the Lord the explainer of His words.An example of what you are talking about is in this verse 1312
He is the One who shows you the lightning as a source of fear, as well as hope, and He initiates the heavy/loaded clouds.
هُوَ الَّذى يُريكُمُ البَرقَ خَوفًا وَطَمَعًا وَيُنشِئُ السَّحابَ الثِّقالَWhy " The heavy clouds" instead of just clouds?
Our generation know a lot about how clouds form and how much they weigh... etc.
How much did the generation of earlier years of Qoran know?
So our understanding of that verse gives us a true fact - proven fact- that could not have been available for that first generation of Qoran.So, there are deeper meanings in a lot of verses that we have not found yet.
GOD bless you.
Peace.Because they knows in 6 7 centuries, when they looked up the sky for rain , book tells us rain part/knowledge,explain, how to turn basic clouds, to heavy clouds, means they fulled up with rain.
